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TheGuy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 December 2009 at 12:22pm
I want to learn more about Djinn.  There are numerous resources for learning about Angels, but I have yet to really find anything about Djinn, and I would like to learn more about their history and current status. 

Also, if possible, I would like to find a Sahir(I assume this is what someone is called who communicates with Djinn, though that isn't clear to me) that speaks English.  I have many questions, and would like to learn more about Djinn, so any help or guidance in what direction to proceed would be appreciated.  Thanks for your time.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 6:26am
Originally posted by TheGuy TheGuy wrote:

I want to learn more about Djinn.  There are numerous resources for learning about Angels, but I have yet to really find anything about Djinn, and I would like to learn more about their history and current status. 


Well, Jinn are the only other beings apart from Humans who have a 'freewill' i.e. they have the ability to do both good & bad according to their whims. There are good Jin (Muslims) and bad Jinns. Maybe you should google up "Jinn" to find islamically relevant info.

Only Hazrat Sulaiman (pbuh) the Prophet had the ability to communicate with and rule over Jinn - in their natural form.

Quote Also, if possible, I would like to find a Sahir(I assume this is what someone is called who communicates with Djinn, though that isn't clear to me) that speaks English.  I have many questions, and would like to learn more about Djinn, so any help or guidance in what direction to proceed would be appreciated.  Thanks for your time.


Are you a muslim ? If so, it is futile and useless to go into things like that. It is not islamically encouraged to visit Sahirs and try and contact/communicate with supernatural beings. Infact it is discouraged.
Why do you wanna do that anyway? Just curious.

PS: Most (if not all) "Sahirs" or soothsayers are just Quacks. So you'd be wasting your time anyway.




Edited by Chrysalis - 28 December 2009 at 6:28am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 12:24pm
Well, that's like asking me why I would want to talk to God or another human being or an angel?  Other beings exist, so why not get to know them?  If they have free will, and they exist in a different state than humans, they have a different perception of reality/creation.  I feel it would be useful to communicate with them.

I already have done a search for Djinn online, there isn't much information on them available, as I stated in my first post. 

I am not Muslim, or any other organized religious faith, though I am aware that there is truth in many religions.

I wonder why you made the comment, "It is not islamically encouraged to visit Sahirs and try and contact/communicate with supernatural beings."?  It seems to me, the Quran makes it clear that they are NOT supernatural, they are made of the essence of Fire as we are of the essence of Earth(at least our bodies) which makes them natural beings.  So, they exist the same as we do, just in a different kind of body.  That doesn't make them supernatural.  Also, even if it's not encouraged, that doesn't mean it's "wrong" or something?  And, who is doing this discouraging?  And, why?

I assume what you say about Sahirs is correct, as there are many ppl in the business of deception, though I'm sure there is someone somewhere who knows enough about them to share something.  Or, maybe some writings somewhere. 




Edited by TheGuy - 28 December 2009 at 12:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 5:35pm
Hi Guy,
very interesting topic you started and its true that there is very little but very clear information given to us about them (the Djinn). What we are told of the Djinn is that the Shaitan (Satan) was from  the Djinn and we have been told very clearly to resist and stay away from him and his council.
Because of Djinn being invisble to us we are unable to physically locate them while the Djinn must be able to see us!  According to the Quran God gave Shaitan who was a Djinn respite till the End to misguide and deceive those who would listen to him and follow him to disobey and deny their maker and accountability except those who believe and guard themselves against him.
Thus far this is the most of what I know of Djinn from the Quran.
As we know from the Quran that Djinn have free will, there are those of Djinn who are on the right guidance. As far as communicating with Djinn, we see that only prophet Solomon was given djinn under his command and he was able to communicate and to put them to any use by Allah's commands.
 
34:12....
and there were jinns that worked in front of him (Solomon), by the leave of his Lord,..

Why we are discouraged to communicate with them simply because Allah has warned us of it:
 

72:6 "...True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the jinns, but they increased them in folly."

Hasan



Edited by honeto - 29 December 2009 at 5:42pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Hi Guy,
very interesting topic you started and its true that there is very little but very clear information given to us about them (the Djinn). What we are told of the Djinn is that the Shaitan (Satan) was from  the Djinn and we have been told very clearly to resist and stay away from him and his council.
Because of Djinn being invisble to us we are unable to physically locate them while the Djinn must be able to see us!  According to the Quran God gave Shaitan who was a Djinn respite till the End to misguide and deceive those who would listen to him and follow him to disobey and deny their maker and accountability except those who believe and guard themselves against him.

 
Your response assumes, perhaps incorrectly, that all Djinn are under his command or are also like him?  I don't really see this as the case, as there doesn't seem to be evidence to that extent. 

Quote
72:6 "...True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the jinns, but they increased them in folly."


Again, your response assumes that ALL Djinn are in some way "negative" or "evil" or in some way unhelpful to man, but I am not seeing this as the case yet again.  Man can be "increased in folly" by himself, and any time he is confused and seeks counsel outside himself he can become even more confused or make worse choices because he is in a weak position mentally or emotionally or spiritually, maybe even physically.  So, maybe these are just warnings similar to the ones against also consulting certain kinds of men, as there are men who use their free will to also lead others astray because of their weak position in life.

I am not sure what the proper context is for "took shelter with persons among the jinns", but I assume it means asking for their help in a time of need, and maybe the Djinn they sought council with were similar to men in having free will and decided to take advantage of the men in their weak state?
  In this context, of course it wouldn't be advisable to seek them out, as anyone in a weak position can easily be taken advantage of by those in a stronger position who are not honest.

--

If Solomon was the wisest man in the world, and he made use of Djinn, he must have known something we obviously do not.  If I recall correctly, it was a woman that led him astray, not a Djinn?  Again, we see a man in a weak position, he is wise but he is weak to his physical desires.  So, even if the "woman" that led him astray was woman or Djinn, we again see the theme of a man being taken advantage of in a weak state as opposed to a state that's strong.  A state like Curiosity, Acquisition of Knowledge, Equality, etc.  If one wants to learn of the Djinn, I don't see a weak point, other than that the Djinn can lie about their kind or etc.  But, If you don't want something from them, I don't see a big deal there.  Anyone can tell tall tales, like the guy who says his fish was an inch bigger than it really is, that's why we were given intuition and the ability to discern truth.

I thank you for your contribution to this discussion though.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2009 at 12:22am
Originally posted by TheGuy TheGuy wrote:

Well, that's like asking me why I would want to talk to God or another human being or an angel?  Other beings exist, so why not get to know them?  If they have free will, and they exist in a different state than humans, they have a different perception of reality/creation.  I feel it would be useful to communicate with them.


Sorry, meant to reply earlier, but somehow my post got erased.

It would only be useful IF you could communicate with them. I honestly don't think that "Djin Communications 101" exists. Hence is a bit futile.

The Djin don't seem to be too eager to contact us ! Wink Maybe its all for the best. . .

"Talking to God" and other humans is different - because it is actually possible.

Anyway - in Islam, although we recognize the existence of Djin, we have not been told or taught any means to communicate with them. So, sorry cannot be of much help there. I don't think its possible either. (Prophets like Solomon (pbuh) aside)

Quote
I already have done a search for Djinn online, there isn't much information on them available, as I stated in my first post. 


Try doing a "Qur'an Search" on some Quran website, type in "Jinn" - hopefully you'll get some verses that talk of Jinn. There is also a whole chapter in the Qur'an, called "The Jinn".


Quote I wonder why you made the comment, "It is not islamically encouraged to visit Sahirs and try and contact/communicate with supernatural beings."?  It seems to me, the Quran makes it clear that they are NOT supernatural, they are made of the essence of Fire as we are of the essence of Earth(at least our bodies) which makes them natural beings.  So, they exist the same as we do, just in a different kind of body.  That doesn't make them supernatural.  Also, even if it's not encouraged, that doesn't mean it's "wrong" or something?  And, who is doing this discouraging?  And, why?


Well, generally speaking - in Islam - we are told to keep away from "futile" ventures, and focus on things that matter. (i.e. effect our Deen (faith/religion) or Duniya (worldly matters). Also we humans have a tendency to get overtly obsessed with such matters concerning "Spirits" or "Magic" or "contacting Jinn" . . . which kind of shifts our priorities and focus from other things, that as humans should take our main priority.

Well, okay we won't use the term supernatural - maybe its not the correct term even though they do have powers & characteristics that seem to be beyond that of "natural forces" on earth. E.g superhuman strength etc etc.

By "its not encouarged" I was bieng a bit cautious since I did not have any sources at the moment to back up what I said (like a hadith or quran verse). Will post once I come across some. I based what I said on the general gist of Islam (that I am aware of). Scholars have also said similar things.

As for "who does the discouraging" - Allah does the discouraging & encouraging in Islam, and if something has not been explicitly mentioned, Scholars form an opinion based on original Islamic sources such as the Qur'an & Hadith.

Quote I assume what you say about Sahirs is correct, as there are many ppl in the business of deception, though I'm sure there is someone somewhere who knows enough about them to share something.  Or, maybe some writings somewhere. 


I highly doubt that. But oh well. . . Smile




Edited by Chrysalis - 31 December 2009 at 1:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2009 at 1:13am

Quote I wonder why you made the comment, "It is not islamically encouraged to visit Sahirs and try and contact/communicate with supernatural beings."?  


Came across some ahadith (Sayings of Prophet Muhammad)

The prayer of one who approaches a fortune-teller and asks him about anything, will not be accepted for forty days or nights” (Saheeh Muslim)

and: Whosoever approaches a fortune-teller and believes in what he says, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammed.” (i,e islam)

Some more info about Jinn:

Allah says in the Qur'an:

“Indeed he (Satan) and his tribe (evil Jinns) watch you from a position where you cannot see them.” (Quran 7:27)

The Qareen is the Jinn companion which is assigned to every human being. It is this Jinn which whispers to our base desires and constantly tries to divert us from righteousness. The Prophet (saws) said: "Everyone of you has been assigned a companion from the Jinn. The companions asked: Even you O' Messenger of Allah? And the Prophet replied: Even me, except that Allah has helped me against him and he has submitted. Now he only tells me to do good" [11](Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.4, p.1472, No.6757)

"The Jinn usually communicate by either visions or voices " - from Ibn Taymiyyah's Essay on the Jinn. This is similar to a Sahih Hadith in which Prophet Muhammad said that there are 3 kinds of dreams, 1. Good dreams that are from Allah, 2. Routine dreams which are just a reflection of everyday life 3.Bad dreams which are from the devils (evil Jinns).

Anyway - so from most Islamic sources almost all Jinn-Men interactions have been portrayed as negative and straying from the right path (Save for the few incidents in which Prophets such as Sulaiman were in control of Jinn, or when some Jinns accepted Islam through Prophet Muhammad). Most ahadith that speak of Jinn also take a warning tone - which clearly denotes that trying to communicate with Jinn is discouraged and not to be pursued - from an Islamic point of view.



"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 December 2009 at 1:47am
Ok, but "fortune-teller" doesn't = Djinn necessarily, so I have to completely disregard that as extraneous information.

I sense that the interpretation is negative, but if you actually read the text it doesn't seem negative?  Maybe I am just an optimist.  "helped me against him" doesn't mean he was necessarily evil?  Maybe he was deliberately sent to test resolve or something, and a human needs to overcome that? 

I'm starting to get the impression that the Islamic faith treats Djinn as Christians treat Angels, they exist, but not really cause no one ever sees or hears from them and those that do are loony or something.  :P

You made an interesting point about focusing on what matters, but that's kinda subjective, what matters to one man may not matter that much to another.  I am like Solomon, I seek to be wise, and you can only really be wise by understanding many things which also includes the unseen like Djinn and Angels and etc.

I haven't actually read the Quran.. does it differentiate between angels and demons like the Bible.. or demons are fallen angels in that as well?  That may help clarify things.

My question after you post, Chrysalis, is why would every man be appointed a Jinn?  That makes me more curious.
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