Islamo-Christian Civilization

Category: Americas, Life & Society Topics: History Views: 12723

Dr. Richard W. Bulliet spoke about his recent book, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization, to members of The Columbia University Club at Sofitel Chicago Water Tower.

Bulliet is a professor of history at Columbia University, where he has taught all periods of Middle Eastern history. For twelve years he served as director of the university's Middle East Institute. In addition to his academic work Bulliet wrote four novels that involve the modern Middle East -- where he has traveled often and widely. 

After 09/11, several political leaders and academic scholars used the phrase, "clashes of civilization" in the media. Their endorsements established a dichotomy between America's position and the Muslim world. Based on the factual events of history - from the Renaissance through the 20th century - Bulliet offers a dramatically different counterpoint.

"Whether you're Muslim or American or Chinese or Indian the problem is if you recognize the 'clash of civilizations,' it gets you no where good and with no signposts," Bulliet said. "What I hope and is absolutely necessary is we experience inclusion with Arabs and Muslims in America."

Although America has pride in its moments of inclusion, one of the current struggles within American society is xenophobia: people who fear and/or hate other people they consider foreign. As long as Anglo-Americans' prejudices regarding Arabs and Muslims exist their hostility debilitates American society. While U.S. leaders preach to the world about American values of equality and acceptance, the international community sees the hostility Arabs and Muslims endure in the U.S. and abroad. Whether people are acting upon these prejudices or they are on the receiving end of them, people are struggling with prejudices and against them.

Another example Bulliet gave is the use of the phrase "Judeo-Christian civilization." Prior to World War II the phrase is hard to find, yet it became so widely used that it is an important moment in American history. The phrase's connotation is that Judeo-Christian civilization is rooted in Western culture. "The popularization of the phrase is a response to the Holocaust," Bulliet added.

Although historians cannot point to the person who penned the phrase (German philosopher Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche may have used it connotatively), the point Bulliet emphasized is that the use and meaning of the phrase after WW II changed the master narrative. In history the master narrative is the record of past events, and only primary historians can change master narratives. Historians understand that history was written by people who lived certain experiences in their lives, and they had expectations of societal futures.

When it comes to the likenesses between Western European society, Mediterranean society and African society, Bulliet makes a powerful case of identifying centuries of borrowing between these societies thereby "monkeying with" the master narrative. "What I do in this book is try to create a new reading of what the past has been so we can have a new prospect of what the future will be." 

Some people may question why Bulliet did not use the phrase "Islamo-Christian-Judeo civilization." Bulliet is not interested in a scriptural reading of history. His research focuses on shared interests between people because they borrow language, religion and culture within their respective societies. Although Bulliet pointed out that people of different faiths lived side-by-side " doesn't mean they are apart at the profound level." He added that there has been extensive writing on the Judeo-Islamic civilization and the Islamo-Byzantine (East Christian) civilization that illustrates the fruitful, long-lasting and dynamic history between these peoples. 

Bulliet gave numerous examples of how present-day society is based on the Islamic world. During a typical morning a person takes a shower with a hard bar of soap. He drinks coffee with sugar in a glazed cup. While he reads the newspaper he has orange juice in a transparent glass. Later in the day he may eat pasta. If he works in a medical profession he may play chess, backgammon or cards (if he has time). The point is that all of these items - including the medical profession - derive from the Islamic world.

"When we look at our society we're not that different from Muslim societies," Bulliet said. "No one will ever talk about the massive borrowing in the Renaissance from the Muslim world."

When there is discussion about European history in relation to the Muslim world, most people do not focus on the fact that the people of Europe and the Middle East lived in sibling societies that borrowed from each other's models. Instead, people talk about the Crusades. However, most of the borrowing took place after 1500 because prior to the 12th century European history shows that the Christian religion was for the elite. 

By the 12th century, in what is often referred to as the great days of Baghdad, virtually everyone in the Middle East converted to Islam. As the dominant structure of society it taught people to be humble and spiritual, and the primary agents of these teachings were the Sufi Brotherhoods. 

During the 16th century Western Christendom had a rigid ecclesiastical structure. The Reformation created the Protestant Churches and changes within the Catholic Church, which involved a hierarchical structure. Regardless of the differences between the West and the Muslim world in societal structures, people in both societies saw the tendency for monarchs to rule despotically. In response to oppression societies put civil and religious mechanisms in place that could serve as counterbalances to the rulers. 

"There is a parallel in the history of the West and in the Muslim world," Bulliet said. "Tyranny is undesirable and should be curbed."

He explained that in the West opposition to tyranny caused the growth of democracy, but in the Islamic world Muslim scholars and Islamic lawyers challenged tyranny of monarchies through Shariah law. However, governments in Egypt and Turkey recognized the success of tyrannies in Europe, such as the Emperor of France Napoleon Bonaparte, who ruled from 1804-1815. In the Middle East Islamist movements had political groups that advocated for elections and universal suffrage and from their point of view "...everyone should vote because this is how we curb tyranny," Bulliet added. 

Although Americans say they have a secular government, the rest of the world watches T.V. and sees that religion and politics are together in the U.S. With respect to the Arab world, "it is difficult for Americans coming from a Western background to see the idea that religion and politics can act in the same arena."

Bulliet emphasized that there is no clash of civilizations and when talking about the future of the Middle East, "democracy is possible," he said, "but you can't get there without going through the front yard of Islamic politics." Moreover, a divergence of views exists within the Arab world as to how Islam should relate to democracy because there is no agreed definition as to how Islam relates to power and politics. For quite some time there has been an election-based movement in the Arab world and how it would come to fruition with totalitarian regimes. At present there are numerous Muslim scholars and an enormous effervescence of Islamic thought.

When asked why the Arab world has not established democracy, Bulliet said: "They've been trying to install democratic regimes for decades and we have not been helpful because the structure of totalitarianism in the Muslim world is something rooted in the Cold War." He added that the U.S. supported authoritarian rule as long as it closed out the Soviet Union and that our present-day policymakers are from the Cold War. 

"We get attacked because we supported tyrannies," he said.

Bulliet stressed that Americans should accept Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans " our society as a moment of inclusion, just like the Civil Rights Movement and it would be something we can be proud of."

Journalist Sonia Nettnin writes about social, political, economic, and cultural issues. Her focus is the Middle East.

Sourece: Znet

  Category: Americas, Life & Society
  Topics: History
Views: 12723

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Older Comments:
The members of the THINK TANK of USA should be human and advise the USA Government for the advancement of the Human Civilisation. If America
behaves as if she is like a Lion in the Jungle, what would be the difference between Humanity and
Beastdom?God desires humanity to flourish in this world as human beings and not as beasts.

thia is really educating may Allah reward you ameen.

very interesting, and i will read his book, insya Allah

This book sounds interesting; I will read it. I disagree that American Muslims are treated with hostility in America. Studies show that American Muslims are one of the best- educated, culturally-adapted and financially well off minority groups in the US. Hatemongers are tryin to fake the idea that we are targeted by Americans. Quite the contrary Americans are very accepting of us. Before we complain about prejudices here, let's fix our own hate and prejudice against Christians & Americans in our native Middle East countries first!

It is nice to see that not all people are hypocrites and blind to the truth. I am very pleased to see Dr. Bulliet pointing out many of the Islamic contributions to the other societies. Mainly Europe and America yet the west keep on denying it. Why can't they except the truth and live as a sibling society.

As Dr. Bulliet points out how present day society is based on the Islamic world and how "No one will ever talk about the massive borrowing in the Renaissance from the Muslim world?" That is because historians do not look for facts--in fact most them copy what other historians have said regarding Islam and Muslims however far from the truth it may be. People talk about the Crusaders is because that is what America wants people to talk about, people have been brainwashed by the media.
The 21 century, maybe a repeat of the 12th century many people are converting to Islam and that is bringing fear to the American government. That could be why they talk about the Crusaders and not about Europe and Islam lived in sibling societies.

As Dr. Bulliet stresses Americans should accept Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans in our society as a moment of inclusion, just like the Civil Rights Movement and it would be something everyone can be proud of.
Nations have to learn to live as siblings and stop all this evil that is in the world. People should look around in their neighborhoods, in their countries, and the rest of the world to see that there is no good that comes out of tyrannies and fighting. May Allah guide all to be peaceful people and nations!

Wonderful article! Thank you Dr. Bulliet.



This Artical is good informative and Boost the Islamic Knowledge.

Religion aside, what are today the Muslim world and the "West" has been in contact since the very beginning. The Persians ruled the parts of the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Europe. The Greeks ruled large parts of the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and even reached India. The Romans conquered Europe, the Middle East, Africa and even parts of Asia. The Islamic Empire ruled over those parts and more as it is recorded as the largest empire in western history. Throughout these empires there was an inevitable mixing of ideas, foods, people, and civilization. Globalization isn't something new; it has been ongoing for nearly 4,000 years. This professor is amazing for pointing this out. The divisions that are created between Christendom and Islam are nothing more than propaganda in order to better a political position on whichever side is doing it. Face it people, politicians need enemies in order to gain prestige and power. That dirty trick has gone unchanged since the first caveman elections. The bridges for both societies have always been there, and great scholars like Bulliet are doing nothing more than reminding us that very fact. In this day in age, one would think that tolerance and acceptance would be widespread as people's mindsets evolve to new heights. But today's world goes to show that we have still gone unchanged for the last 5,000 years. World powers today are engulfed in greed and selfishness which only gives way to hate and prejudice as one government tries to topple another to make it more powerful and spurs fearful and hateful propaganda to win the support of its subjects. This is a time more than ever for people to come together and realize each other's great qualities and encourage good, positive relations on both the political and social levels.

I was Dick Bulliet's student in the 1960's during his first post
after a Harvard PhD. He took a principled stand against Zionist
control over Berkeley's Near East studies, which cost him tenure,
but took him to Columbia. His brilliant use of quantitative social
history to map conversion to Islam in Iran compared to other
political-territorial cultural areas provided an insight into the
varied modes by which Islam spread so far so quick, but with
internal contradictions that haunt us today. His approach to
Islamo-Christian Civilization is very logical, but we live in an
illogical world. The 1960's Pope John & World Council of
Churches led the way to ecumenical dialog with Islam. The
Cordoba meetings opened a common framework with which to
understand the historical interweaving of monotheism. But
American evangelical exceptionalist ideology rejected all other
Christianity & equated Islam with Satan, an 11th century view.
Historically inclusive, diverse & open, step-by-step, Islam has
been subverted from within by an orthodoxy that imprisons our
minds & social bodies. Today, Muslims are afraid to critically
examine our own history & common intellectual exchanges with
Jewish & Christian theology or philosophy. Our ignorance is at
our own peril. Unless we free ourselves from fear & power held
by narrow ulama & fanatic followers, we will implode & lose an
opportunity for an Islamic reformation & renaissance, which can
only come from enlightened leadership in dialogue with non-
Muslim counterparts. Our fear is "shirk" as it displays the lack of
trust in Allah that guided speculative philosophy & science to
fuel the Islamic Golden Age we longingly look back at.

Beautifully written Article, approaching the problem from Socio-cultural rather than scriptual angle,wherein interaction of Western & Middle-Eastern civilization has been analysed objectively; simultaneously admitting that the Muslim, Jews , and Christians had been living side by side both in the Middle East & Europe. It has also ben admitted unequivocally that the recently introduced concept of CLASH OF CIVILIZATION is a farce inasmuch as it is not going to benefit either of the two socio-cultural or socio-political groups including US. Spirit of tolerance is particlarly necessary when Human Civilization as a whole is confronting the threat of extinction in the event of a nuclear War.

Sugar comes from Asia, coffee comes from Ethiopia, glazing was in use since Cicero's time, newspapers go back as far as Rome and ancient China, glass goes back to the Phoenicians, pasta is Chinese, Chess began in India, backgammon is ancient (non-Islamic and non-Arab) Egyptian, and cards are from China.

Dear Sir.
Comments have been posted and sent by Email to [email protected] in appreciation of UNESCO's commemoration of 800the anniversary of Jelaluddin Rumi, the Afghni,Iranian, Turkish Poet-the best selllng poet of the East.
Ambassador Syed A. Ahsani

I re-enter my comments...I had put those in detail yesterday but for some reason did not appear ...
Unfortunately, I did not save them so I will be brief now ...basically, what I intend to comment is that articles like these intend to build bridges but going by the past few years of such intense scholarly focus on Islamo-Christian heritage whatever, its not accepted by anyone except by some well meaning western Islamic scholars...bottomline is ..Islamic civilzation is a stand alone complete entity does not need to insinuate itself a la Judeo-Christianity etc...and it can deal with any external challenges on its terms and so can its followers ..whether they are on the Moon or in Timbaktoo.

I fail to understand the near obsession of western Islamic scholars -- both Muslim and non-Muslim -- to promote the concept of Christian-Islamic whatever similar to Judeo-Christian ethos. I can understand the need to promote understanding and peace but not by appending Islamic culture. Islamic civilization inspite of sharing basic principles is a stand alone powerful world entity and does not need validation or incorporation.

Assalamualaikum (peace be upon you) all, especially to Doin Phine, I must say that it is very wise of you to ask which version of the english translation of the Quran is good to read for a start. I am also touched by your sincerity in wanting to understand Islam from a reliable source. It is very important especially that nowadays, even though Islam is winning converts in the west, misconceptions about Islam is still so rampant. The fast growth of Islam has made some parties jealous and are intent in employing whatever evil plans and dirty tricks to demonize islam. This includes disinformation by printing FAKE Quran. One so-called Quran to be avoided is entitled the "True Furqan" by Al Saffee... So plese avoid that one! More info about this @

For basic information about Islam, the following books are very good:

If you have questions regarding islam you can submit any question to the following site:



Islam is the extention of Christianity which is the extention of Judaism in the belly of the Middle East. What has become a challenge since then is not between these ways of worshipping the same God but the divisions that humans have created in the form of Western culture versus Eastern culture. Neither has much fondness for the other. This is where we all have to rise above such racist divides and embrace each other so as to give glory to the ONE God who wanted us to be ONE. Humanity can only attain strength in ONE spirituality.


If you are in GTA area, I can help you get in touch with reverts to Islam. In our mosque in last 6 months there where about 10 reverts, mostly women. If you have questions, you are more then welcome to come to our center and talk/discuss or debate. Let me know if you are interested.


Ref: 34307. From Islam Thanksgiving. Further proof of a CLASH. I think it is important for all non-Muslims to read this comment.

Doin Phine,

Yes, comparitive reading is always good for understanding your nieghbour. I read other religions and 'ways of life' which normally affirms that we are one people.

A comparison of Quran translations by three acknoledged translators of the Quran by Yusuf Ali, Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall & MH Shakir can be found at

You could try Dr. T.B.Irving more 'modern' worded translation at

However these sites lack comprehensive notes. Printed editions may include the author's / editor's notes which may help in understanding the time, location, context and meaning.

In an earlier post you mention the "newly discovered" gospel of Thomas, surely you mean suppressed?

Interestingly during the 1972 restoration work on the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, thousands of different parchment pages of the Quran were discovered. Initial analysis showed some these to be parts of a very early Quran. I've yet to see a comprehensive analysis of this goldmine of knowledge....

Peace for all,


To Paul. Thanks for your reply, I found your responses enlightened. Your comment for new interpretations and revived understanding within Islam, I think is important. An example of this process is the Catholic church, while it is a slow process they are progressing with new interpretations and adaptations to modern society. Albeit much to slow for many Catholics.

I have been an atheist for as long as I can remember, and I'm very comfortable with it. I agree with you that for the vast majority of people, the need to believe in religionhigher power is essential.

However I do read the Bible, and would like to start reading the Koran, which English version do you recommend. I find these books (among others), are the history of our culture(s), and lessons can be learned from their study.

Thank you once again for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Salaam A'lekum (Peace be upon you), Doin Phine,

I'll try to answer your questions, however this is my view and others may vehemently disagree with what I say.

The written Koran has a history. From the memories of men and from various written materials, the first written Quran was compiled. It was written in an ancient Arabic dialect without a degree of punctuation. So translations into modern languages are hotly debated. Further more the chronology of the passages in the Koran is also passionately debated, as some will say that that one sentence will abrogate another. People spend their entire life dedicated to the study and interpretation of the Koran. The Koran is somewhat like a puzzle, one of the keys to understanding it are the time, location and context of the revelations. I'd recommend that you see a film called "The Message" about early Islam. You have to be very careful when taking verses in isolation. After all I could take any children's book and cut and paste the words to resemble something quite horrific.

As for Sharia law it is interpreted and enforced by man, however saying that, in the past it was far more enlightened than many western countries' laws. However I do not think it is appropriate in the west now. It would not work in a society that allows freedom to worship (or not to worship in case of atheists) and which is inclusive, promotes equality, diversification and multiculturalism. I am also a secularist. I practice a personnel form of Islam, for me there is only one true judge and the actions in this life, will govern the next.

In English, Islam means 'Surrender to God'. For progression there must be critical analysis, new interpretations and revived understanding.
One thing I say to atheists is, there is more to gain from believing than not believing.

Peace for All.

Paul the TROLL

P.S. Have a read of an interesting and eloquent article relating to the above:

Salaam, Dr Edriss,

Who am I?


Who are the TROLLS?

We are supernatural creatures of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a mischievous or friendly dwarfs or as a giants, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.

Dr Edriss , What or who do you dislike?

That I am a TROLL?

Me replying to you?

That my name is Paul?

Paul of the Bible?

That 99% of your posts are gibberish?

Christians of the Middle East?

Christians from the rest of the World?

Moslems who don't think like you?

The Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings or Normans?

Your Neighbour?




Peace from,

The Friendly Dwarf,
Under Bridge,
La La Land.

To Dr. Ed..
Thanks for no more posts concerning me, because they are of no great insight. I don't receive any money, so sorry to disappoint you. I make comments, about articles, and opinons presented on this site, and you make personal attacks on me. In a democracy we discuss in a civilised fashion, we don't attack each other, the way you attack me.

What is this about proving myself atheist? Totally incoherent! You don't have to prove yourself Muslim. If you want to discuss Christianity or Atheism with me or anybody else it is ok, and I won't call you names. I leave name calling to children in kindergarten.


I challenge this dumb boy called Doin to prove himself Atheist.
someone who knows what disbelieving to God means, will Raise his voice in public and everywhere, condemning the 2 fake religions who appeared in the west(in 20 century) and caused the biggest death and destruction to mankind in human history.
it's easy to know how fake this person is: he will never try to condemn a people calling themselves jew and coming to take over another nation in the name of religious(something he trys to claim he is against it)myth.

this will be my last post talking about that TROLL. it is clear to me(if it's not to all), he makes money from bashing moslems here. this kind of TROLLS can be stoped one way: cut the money off.

why you get frustrated paul?relax?which owners you were talking about?the lords?or hooligans? :)
Thank you again Paul, this time for proving the unknown writer bruce to be wrong :). don't bother yourself? there is less than 1% chance that you will understand why, with the level you presented here :).
people name their kids Paul inspiring it from Paul of the bible. his real name is Saul or Sha'ul(Hebrew) or Sau_E_la(Arabic) all means "Asked". there is big story behind it, but you have to pay to get it :) or ask BBC. how come your free society didn't teach you that? :). my fictive Free Society(since I don't believe there is a free society in this world) taught me better he he he. who told you, you live in free society? you got it from BBC. don't you see that you are in closed cycle? anything in your mind goes back to BBC. BBC never told you that the anglo saxon invaded England and had a witch hunt for the celtic pagans, to keep only those who accept a cross in their religion.
I can see why you got offended, because you hold the same useless mentality of Doin! what can I do for you? I directed my post to him! if you used your brain(if I suppose you have one :) ), you will not answear something not directed to you.
You are completly free to answear anything you like online! but jumping in things who were not directed to you, makes you just TROLL. the Plural is TROLLS since Doin share that ability with you.
don't fool yourself by involving Islam in what we talked about? you bearly understand what I say! if you inherit a house and I come to demolish it, I WILL NEED YOU TO ALLOW ME THAT. that's why those people who played with the bible in the west, supposed to have permission from the middleeast. unfortunatly, the brainwashed people of the west, think like we have different religions! instead of reading the fact, that those people corrupted any version of religion that they had from middleeast.
allow me to laugh please? ha ha ha

To Paul,

I simply have a few questions, and don't wish to enter into a debate. Being an atheist, I would like to know how you (intelligent, and educated) can accept the teachings of Islam, due to the often non-chronological, contradictatory, and violent verses in the Koran, and Hadith. Even the Catholic Church says NOT to take the Bible literally, how can you accept that Muslims have to accept the Koran as is, and live it without exception. While I'm an atheist, and know the Bible comes from the Middle East and is full of violence, especially the Old Testament. The New Testament (I think) is less violent, and the "newly discovered" gospel of Thomas, will give renewed evidence of the non-violent nature of Jesus. We all know that Mohammed was a warrior, and killed many people. How do you resolve these issues as a Westerner.

Do you think Sharia (spelling?) law should be put in place in the West.

Final question, do you think that Islam the religion (not the followers) has to evolve or it is perfect as it is.

I'm asking you this, because I know of no converts to Islam personally, and am interested in knowing a converts opinion on these subjects.

If you feel the questions are too much of a personal nature and don't want to respond, I respect your decision.

Finally, personally while I'm an atheist, it doesn't mean that I can't learn from different religions. However religions are created by man, for man, and sometimes to control man. So when reading religous materials it is important to remember this fact.

What does Islam mean in English, just wondering ;-)!

Further more, as for the BCC, it is funded by the people for people. It is not funded by the British Government nor by advertisements by large corporations. Read the results of a search of the BBC website and try to undo your pre-programmed bigoted thoughts:
Reading the first few pages of articles from the BBC website , I could learn more respect for Islam than reading all your combined raving rants / posts.
However I, as you, live in a free society which allows me see the world through the people of this planet and not just through the BBC.
When I was young and at school we were taught amongst many other life building subjects, philosophy , humanity and the religions of the world. I further travelled the world and met many people who reinforced the shared identity of humans.
I subsequently decided that Islam is the religion to live my life by, I also choose to disagree with you on your comment, as it is against my experiences in life.
If I have misinterpreted your comments then I sincerely apologise. However can you not see that your unnecessary confrontational and aggressive posts will affirm to people, not familiar to Islam, that Islam is confrontational and aggressive. Maybe this is how you see Islam, however I prefer,
P.S. I've just researched and found that 'Paul of the bible' was born in Tarsus, Middle East and he taught that 'Abrahim's god is the One God for all people' ironic, given your views and quite revolutionary, 600 years before Mohammed!


This is special for 'Dr' Edriss (however as always, in a open & free society all should feel free to comment),
Yes, 'Dr' Edriss I think I can make sense of what you trying to say.
I see you make the same mistake as some, by associating the actions of a historical person to a name. What is important, as you should be aware, is the meaning of the name.
'Paul' means small or humble in Latin. To me humility is a fine attribute to live one's life by.

You state in your reply to 'Doin Phine'
"The papers of Abrahim, ..... are heritage of the people of the middleeast. nobody have right to change a word from them without we the people of middleeast allow that."
I assume you were born or have relatives in the Middle East, even so this does not give you right to dictate to others with such astounding arrogance and blatant racism. When did ethnicity give you rights over Moslems in Islam?
I don't think our fellow brothers and sisters from Nigeria, Mali, Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Turkey and the rest of the World would bow down to you and acknowledge you as a self proclaimed superior race and gatekeeper to the doors of religion.
Further more you denigrate the 'People of the Book' who the Quran holds in high esteem. Who knows best you, or the Book.
You are a contradiction to the religion you profess.

Thanks for the link Paul, very interesting. To Dr E.... isn't this site here so everybody can interchange their ideas. Maybe it is you, who is not at the right internet site. ;-). Just joking, I enjoyed reading all of your entries. Keep them coming, it will bring people great insight into a certain mindset.


Thank you Paul, something in common between you and Paul of the bible! you put your nose in things which was not directed to you. like you find Paul of the bible puting his nose in Jesus's business and telling people to worship Jesus while Jesus was telling them to worhship God, you put your nose in what I said "special for Doin" to pretend that I'm not practicing my religion. I'm afraid that you proved that you seek some superiority on people here by jumping to a conversation where you were not welcome.

next time, learn to comment on the article if the talk of others was not directed to you?. I know you will not listen, simply because you are preprogrammed to listen just to BBC and who control BBC and who Govern the land of the BBC even if they tell you "we lied,there is no WMD in Iraq, so what?"
take this from me? I know you always gonna need it. when you talk to someone who doesn't live in your land, don't ever present your news or whatever books your people wrote as proofs? because people arround the world doesn't see the BBC with the eyes that you see.

you may fail to understand that I'm talking to you with just logic but I have nothing to do for you. if you consider it arrogance and superiority, try to analyse it and bring better without contradicting yourself?
Now my talk is directed to you, feel free to answear it if you can?

All, Salaam A'lekum.

Hudd d'Aelia & Doin Phine,

Something to entertain your inquisitive brains: (a few glaring errors but interesting none the less).

Generally Civilisation by Caliphate / Empire / whatever, is achieved by conquest.


P.S. "Dr' Edriss" in your last comment (Ref: 34348) you display a self-superiority & arrogance that is not of the religion you profess.

This is my last post, so to Hudd d'Aelia, relax, just one more rebuttal on your part is needed.

As far a Kufr/Kuffar/Kuffaar/kufar. I was right and you were wrong. Plain and simple. Where does that leave you with all the other points you discussed. Are you still sure you are right on everything else.

The excuse that you have to be extremely educated in the teachings of Islam to interpret the Koran, the Hadith and all other Muslim documents is exclusionary, manipulative, and plain wrong.

As I have posted in previous entries. When I read the relationship muslims are suppose to have with Kuffaar, well being friends is not an option, unless there is an ulterior motive ;-). Show me entries on site that says otherwise, and I will be able to show you others that agree with me.

By the way what is the right spelling for Kufaar. Islamicity has three spellings for the same word in the Q&A Section? What is up with that.

To be my brother we would have to have the same parents, which is not the case. Secondly to be my friend (ami) I would have to know you, we would have to have some kind of relationship where we share certain activities together like watching hockey games, drinking together, poker, you get what I'm getting at. I find when somebody calls somebody else a friend when he/she doesn't know the other person, that is well improper english, impolite, untruthful and out of place. When I said that I wasn't your brother or ami, it doesn't mean I wish you any ill will, or dislike towards you.

Finally when you defend the fact that Saudi Arabia doesn't allow churchs, and then state differences between the Muslim world and the West, well you successfully defended my point of view concerning a clash of civilizations.


this is special for brother Doin, read it manytimes to understand it. or just read it whenever you want discover the truth about your life? it may helps you to get out from your fantasy world to the real one.

give yourself a break and go renew your visa? your kind of maniacs convinct themselves with wrong Identities to hang with whoever they see as the winning party.
you did not understand a thing from what I told you and that's because, like Hudd said "you are blind"
from the way you type, I know that you born in some fourth world country and you are very happy that you had a visa to wherever you are now :). I guess even your people happy that you left :).
I didn't post the verses from the bible because I believe it belongs to you my friend(I have to give you hope :) ), nothing belong to you, not even the space that welcome you with :). I posted what's inside the bible and I follow it with a statement of a moslem. means whatever the bible hold wrong, I'm the middleeasterner moslem who is the real descendent of the people who witnessed Jesus, confirm that's not the truth of the Book of Jesus. and I call that corruption done by those like you who do whatever to get attention from the people of their time.
you are here nothing! you are blind and you have nothing! I wish they renew your visa so you will not have to go back to your fourth world country and make it become the fifth :). The papers of Abrahim, the Book of David, The book of Moses, the book of Jesus and the book of Mohammad (SAAWS) are heritage of the people of the middleeast. nobody have right to change a word from them without we the people of middleeast allow that. if you want speak about western books, you have Plato, Socrates... do whatever with them? between you and the west who gave you that visa :).
try to get life? and renew your identity? the one that you present here is fake and baseless.

this is not a clash of civilisations it is a clash between the strong and the weak, rich and poor, rights and wrongs, haves and have nots, good and evil.lmao. Empires are being built. oil is a valuable commodity, the muslim--christian clash is a sideshow to distract the feeble minded from the neo imperialism of the usa. all hail cesar

Dion Pine? Are you talking about insults? We call you brother and friend(ami) and you say, "I'm not your brother, or your ami."? That's rude! You should know better since you claim you are Canadian! You my compatriot? Maybe from the hillbilly country or the trailer park.

Now if you don't care about your own bible, why would Muslims care more? You continually advertize the reading of the bible to us, get it through your head, we read it, not once! There is nothing in it to make me fall on my face and prostrate myself in front of a cross! Get real, man, is it OK to call you man or you want me to call you sir? You may want it, I won't, if you are not my brother or friend, you must be my enamy.

Nobody claimed that in the so called Muslim countries freedom, equality and brotherhood reigns. You don't pay attention, man, everybody on this site mentioned those places as being governed by puppet governments, despotic and dictatorial serving Western interests rather than local development. That's the reason for the ongoing hostilities. Muslims that want self governace and USA that wants her interests to be secured by totalitarian governments. Da! Dude! Are you on lithium?

What does this have to do with anything? "Saudi Arabia, can build a Mosque in Canada, however to build a Church in SA is illegal. Mohammed likes hypocrites?" Just for the sake of argument in Saudia you can marry 4 in Canada not. But you can marry the same sex in Canada but not in Saudia. You can legally use dope in Canada, the government supplies you the parapharnelia but not in USA or Saudia! Dude, different countries different laws! How old are you? Do your parents know on what sites you go on their computer?

Leave aside the definition of kufr, you need to have extended Islamic knowledge to really understand all the implications of the word. Don't get yourself in waters you can't swim. I don't need to check any site for any Islamic term, man, I am a Muslim. Ahl kitab means what I told y

My spelling of kuffaar comes from the site The definition of Kufr and Ahlul Kitab comes from (Pro-)Muslim sites also. Is a reputable site if not, please tell me, there is no way for me to know, and I am trying to learn more.

I know there are many different versions of the Koran, just like there are many sects of Islam, and of course there are many different English translations. If the English translations are incorrect that i recite, I would like to have your recommendation of a good site to have the proper translations. It will be a joy for me to read them.

The dark ages, yes it was not a pretty time for Europe, but that was then, and this is now. Where in the world is there the highest (and lowest)levels of education.

Last thing why do you call me brother, is that term not used between Muslims only. Or is it ok for Muslims to have best friends who are Ahlul Kitab and kuffaar/kufaar.

Ps: I checked In the Q&A when I put in kuffaar I got 4 hits. When I put in kufaar I got only one hit. So who is wrong, who is right, and why was I insulted. I came to discuss, and I recieve personal attacks.

There is no clash of civilizations. The idea that terrorism is derived from Islam is laughable. Any student/educated person/person that actually based an opinion on fact would have already noticed that the use of terror by small groups against governments actually started in America during the Revolutionary war, and was refined to an art by Michael Collins in Northern Ireland.

As far as the references to the Quranic verses, brother, please get a real translation in your hands before you shoot off your mouth. Kuffar does not refer to Christians or Jews. but they you would have had to actually read the Quran, the very fact that you misspelled the word reveals volumes.

Do yourself a favor, brother, stop talking before you end up swallowing the foot in your mouth. All of that wonderful civilization you are strutting is a gift from Islam to you, since it is the Islamic scholars who kept the writings of Plato and Socrates, Algabraic theories, geometry, higher math and philosophy, while the european culture was burning witches at the stake and wouldn't take a bath because it was of the devil, the dark ages, you remember? oh, you ditched school that semester?



I stand by what I said, and insults, by people who disagree with me doesn't bother me. However I'm not your brother, or your ami.

I don't defend the Old or New Testament, and your reading from the Bible is ok by me. The difference is in the West we know the Bible is to be read discussed and even refuted.

In the West, if we decide not to be Christian, that is our right. In the Muslum world if you decide to change faiths, you put your life in danger. Where is the Freedom.

Saudi Arabia, can build a Mosque in Canada, however to build a Church in SA is illegal. Mohammed likes hypocrites?

I think Muslims should read the Bible more, and I congratulate you on this! Muslims should also read the teachings of Hinduism, Buddhism and other sources of enlightenment.

Definition of Kufr from (compiled by Ishaq Zahid).

Its original meaning is 'to conceal'. This word has been variously used in the Quran to denote: (1) state of absolute lack of faith; (2) rejection or denial of any of the esentials of Islam; (3) attitude of ingratitude and thanklessness to God; and (4) non-fulfilment of certain basic requirements of faith. In the accepted technical sense, kufr consists of rejection of the Divine Guidance communicated through the Prophets and Messengers of God. More specifically, ever since the advent of the last of the Prophets and Messengers, Muhammad (S.A.W.), rejection of his teaching constitutes Kufr.

To prove me right check the definition of Ahlul Kitab at ;-)

Your true beliefs are revealed when you write "Western bastards soiled the Holy lands of the Muslims". How did the lands become Muslim in the first place?

"Little knowledge is a dangerous thing" yes that is in the Koran, what a wonderful verse to control people with.

You may be not smart enough to think for yourself, but I AM.

Final proof that there is a CLASH!!!!!


Assalam Alaikom brother Hudd,
Thank you for telling that brother he is blind. that's the nicest way to say it :).

sometimes, you talk to crazy people online but you just don't know. if you think crazy people can not type, Now we have prove they type too :).
let's run this crazy guy more crazy with this verses from the bible?
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
I will not quote anymore because I will need a space equal to the bible to quote the evil things of the bible. but as a moslem I still say the bible was just corrupted and was not intended to do any evil. something that the people who glorify a CROSS can't understand yet.
the US administration of today are playing very dangerous game by giving their back to science and shopping from the zealous Mall anybody who gonna fight their wars.
unfortunatly, the zealous can not think for themselves. they are used like piece of cake(I don't want say exactly like what, I have to respect the descency of but use your imagination?) by the warmongers...

hey Doin phine(nice name :) ) ! this Islam,org not I know you didn't mean to be here, it's just a mistake :).

Doin Phine, you see nothing, what could a blihnd spirit see? Nothing.

What you call clashes of civilization is merely different cultures. But how could an unseeing errant soul perceive that? "I see clashes every time I talk philosophy/religion/politics with Muslims.", you say. There are differences of opinion mon ami, what are you a totalitarian despot? People gave their lives away in service for this country to exactly have these freedoms! The freedom to your opinion, uncensured. The freedom to follow your culture, on which the government encourages you to do so, unrestricted.

A woman walking behind her man? In some cultures and this is not an Islamic issue, married women walk behind their husbands, thus signaling her status. Prostitutes walk in front of the man because she's leading him to the brothel. Some people keep to that out of wont, not anything else, and the meaning of that is the one I mentioned. I am a Canadian Muslim and I walk besides my wife because we talk a lot together. My neighbour is a Christian Canadian and he never goes anyplace with his wife. When I asked him why? He said because her place was in the kitchen and with the kids. Interesting philosophy, wouldn't you say?

About the Quran, cher ami, it is all true, interpretation is needed though, since almost nobody speaks the Arabic of the seventh Century Arabia. However, that is done by people smarter than you and me that consecrated their lives to study the Quran and translate it in different languages, including modern Arabic.

You say,"In the west free thought is valued and submission is not. The mind think is totally different between Muslims and Christians." O, really? Why then your frustration over the 'mind think' of the Muslims? It's a free thought away of your own mind think, and thus allowed to be expressed just validates the democratic system of this great country, mon ami.Muslims think differently than Christians.Da!They are Muslims. What's wrong with you? So do

Excellent research without bias.

Wow, talk about being wrong. I don't know how you can be more wrong.

I see clashes of culture/civilization everyday when I read Arab/Muslim newspapers. I see clashes every time I talk philosophy/religion/politics with Muslims.

I see a clash of cultures everytime I visit a Muslim website such as this one. I see a clash everytime I see a Muslim women walking behind her husband. I see a clash every time a Muslim expains to me that the Koran and how it is perfect, and the word of God, and how it is to be followed exactly and with out interpretation!

In the west free thought is valued and submission is not. The mind think is totally different between Muslims and Christians.

This CLASH is apparent to all who have their eyes open. I think in the West we have opened our eyes just in the last few years due to the increased levels of terrorism.

In the Muslim world this clash has always been there. For example the Koran has a word for non-Muslim it is the word Kuffaar. Also the concept of Muslim controlled land and non muslim controlled land. Daru'l Islam (land of Islam and Daru'l Harb (land of warfare).

A verse from the Koran.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191

One more, but many many others.

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Just so everybody understands, one more.

Don't obey disbelievers. But rather fight against them. 25:52

For Muslims to not believe me is ok by Allah. Another verse to give them strengh in this moment of truth.

Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 33:48

I wish everybody a great day. To read and understand the Koran is to reject it!


Professor does his best to see things with scientific eyes but provoker use just book in his hands and make myths to impose his dreams on the society. the professor does his best to resolve problems but the provoker does his best to fullfill Armaggedon.

The Professors do their best to give people hopes but the provokers do their best to destroy them.
If you never experienced what I said above, take a look at what the professor Dr.Richard doing and at what the provoker t-ham saying. one use the logic to correct the society, the other use his claims to destroy it.

there is no doubt that people love the professors but they ignore the provokers until they form their Utopia and hijack the society.

I believe Dr.Richard got alots off things to teach me(if I can't say us) thru his book. unlike t-ham who want me believe s/he is an American :) or cares about America. since s/he is Copt and can't hide it, why can't s/he tell us his or her forfathers were assimilated in Egypt for 1400 years and her/him unable to assimilate since 2002!!!!?

I will not forget to thanks the Author Sonia Nettnin who did good job in writing for the good of humanity. It is very hard task but the True American Patriotic can do it.

Therotical/virtual democracy where every one votes and where 51% has a GOAHEAD and 49% becomes audience.


Real/Practical democracy, where we always have votes like 24% + 22% + 24% +5% and then 25% takes it all.

Also over the years these costituencies are well placed and organized and structured in the fashion where always minority interest groups win again and again.

And drama of pollings is played repeated every 4years.Present day democracy in the west should be called Divide and Rule.

And on top of that they want to spread this version of Democracy all over the world and on the lands of Islam.

With such democracy we have now Gay Priests who are perfectly suitable to teach religion. and millions in the prison who never found justice.

West should try to work on Justice for everyone rather than (so called divide and rule) Democracy.

British Columbia is working on such new Real Democracy. Maybe they should start to work with them.


I think it is disingenuous to accuse Americans of being xenophobic. America wouldn't be here if not for immigrants. The problem arises when a group does not enter into the "bargain" so to speak, in good faith. Jews, Copts, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, animists, and a number of others come to the US and successfully assimilate. It seems to me, from watching the news, from paying attention to the statements of CAIR, from interacting with Muslims in my own town, and from listening to statements from Muslim clerics, intellectuals, and politicians, that some Muslims aren't interested in assimilating, but dominating. They are not interested in participating in America so much as remaking it into something else. There are at least 9 nationalities of origin represented on my street, everyone gets along, nobody tries to force their ideology on the others and nobody tries to tell the others how to live. They are all welcome and know that if they need my help, all they need do is knock on my door, what is mine is theirs. American ideals in action. Should someone come along and try to change the very fundamentals of my society because their ideology mandates it, as codified in their religious literature, then they are absolutely not welcome. People struggle to come to America because they want to participate in the fabulous freedom and democracy and vibrant society, dismissing the reactionary anti-American voices trying to convince them otherwise. If America wasn't the greatest place on Earth, people would be fighting to leave, not fighting to get in. They want what it is, what it is now, what it has a history of being, what it shall remain. Imperfect, but the best option out there, and constantly trying to be better, despite those who would jealously tear it down, from without AND within.Come in good faith, be my brother. Come to America already hating it, planning to bring it down, intent on forcing your own ideas upon it, don't waste your time and mine.