Can I trust your penguin?

Are you sure your penguin is showing my IP Address only to me?

I don't mind Herr Penguin. Heil!

But the exploding flashy sign coupled with the penguin adds more strain on the eye.  Can you make yours a calm one like that of Angel and let the peguin go to the Iranian superspeed centrifuges?

Whenever you visit Ali Sina's site, please do not leave his site without sending him an e-mail.

You should send him this one as many times you can. It will soothe his nerves and keep him, a liar, calm:

"Ya ayyuhallazeena dhallu, qad dallu katheeram minkum min qablo, wa antum shuhdaao alalkufre wal-kazib, taquloona iftaraa, selasa.Wal maseeh ibne maryama ma laa taqala mithle maa taqaloo."

zulqarnain wrote: If there is any fan of Ali Sina aroung here, just go to examinethetruth.com. You'll get a nasty shock, how he lost a logical debate with a Muslim brother, who isn't well know; Nadeer Ahmad. And he used MATHS to defeat the apostate. YES MATHS!!! just read the debate.

Why not invite Ali Sina to debate you here?  He might have some relevant comments about the debate and junk. 

AnnieTwo wrote: fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - you couldnt debate your own shadow.  just who is this ali sina bloke? Hello my friend Fredifeeloader, Ali Sina is very famous.  He is an ex-Muslim and started his own website at FaithFreedom to express his views on Islam which aren't pretty, but I haven't read much of what he writes.  I think he is an atheist now and doesn't believe in any religion because of his experiences with Islam.  Muslims are not fond of him.  That's all I know about him.  From what little I know about Sina, AbRah could not win a debate with him under any circumstances.  There are a lot of ex-Muslims out there that are vehemently against Islam, but a lot of them consider the Muslims a part of their "family" and care about them very, very much as all Christians should. Annie

Yes, I suspect anyone who says I am an ex-Muslim and then propagates incorrect ideas and hatred toward Islam would be very popular in certain circles.

I have read some of Ali Sina's works and his suppositions are ridiculous. He bases most of his theories on the fact that Muslims are mindless drones, with blind faith, who want to be led and controlled.

If this is the case, then why are so many Westerners accepting Islam?I am not a mindless drone, and I was never so inducted in the doctrine of blind faith as I was when I was a Christian.

I think the difference between ex-Muslims and Ex-Christians who accept Islam is that most Muslims revere the Prophet Jesus and all of the Prophets and Messengers that came before. Therefore, we do not feel free to spew hatred about our ex-religion or the people who practice it. I do not hate Christianity or Christians. Everyone in my family are Christians. How could I hate them? I feel that Christianity has gone astray of the original message of God, and I wish they would get back on the right track.

You have to be full of hate to speak the way Ali Sina does. I thank God that most Muslim reverts do not feel the way he does toward anyone.

Hey Fred and AnnieTwo

You don't know me...I wish someday I will face Ali Sina, George, you Fredi etc in public debates and we will see whether you and your cronies can beat me in the debates or vice versa.

I quote AnnieTwo's statement: 'From what little I know about Sina, AbRah could not win a debate with him under any circumstances.' How little you know about Sina when you say that Sina could beat me in a debate. 

Knowledge will defeat Ali Sina. You don't know me and you are prejudging me. You are not fair to yourselves and me.

Dear Amah,

May Allah rewards you and your family for your good deeds...Ameen.

fredifreeloader wrote: exactly, annie, i cleared the whole cross/tree issue up for abrah in just two or three lines - but he just ignores it

My response: Hey Reedoloader....Can't you differentiate a tree from a cross? If it was a cross why did the writers of  Acts write it as a tree? And why did the writers of the Gospels write it as a cross if it was a tree? Were the writers blind that they could not differentiate a tree from a cross? Are you blind too? Why don't you call a cross a tree and vice versa in your daily life? Why?

The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(c)Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Matthew27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Hey Fredi.... I wonder what kind of cross that can grow up consuming fertilisers etc and doing photosynthetic process.

AnnieTwo wrote: AbRah2006 wrote: Hey Fred and AnnieTwo You don't know me...I wish someday I will face Ali Sina, George, you Fredi etc in public debates and we will see whether you and your cronies can beat me in the debates or vice versa. I quote AnnieTwo's statement: 'From what little I know about Sina, AbRah could not win a debate with him under any circumstances.' How little you know about Sina when you say that Sina could beat me in a debate.  Knowledge will defeat Ali Sina. You don't know me and you are prejudging me. You are not fair to yourselves and me. I was just fooling around with you AbRah.  I based my opinion on what I have read in your posts on this site.  You ask or make allegations against the Bible, some give you answers and then you repeat the same questions.  I'm thinking of the tree and cross discussions. Annie

My response:

I have refuted all of your allegations using facts !  Can't you differentiate a tree from a cross? Why don't you call a tree a cross and vice versa in your daily life? Why?  I wonder what kind of cross that can grow up consuming fertilisers etc and doing photosynthetic process.

zulqarnain wrote: Just to add this: Ali Sina deleted this specific debate from his website. He claims that there was a 'mysterious crash' which deleted ONLY that debate from his website. He's really a BIG LIER and nothing else.

but zul, the debate is there, on his website

fredifreeloader wrote: yes that is an interesting website annie, ive been looking at it in the past couple of hours, and no doubt ill go back to it later

Ali Sina would be a good role model for you.

Sadly, the only ex-Christians who truly defame Christianity are Atheists. I guess we could start quoting them here, they are usually pretty full of vitriol and hatred towards their ex-religion. They do make some compelling arguments.

fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - im not going to repeat the information i gave to you, to which you have not responded

My response: I have answered your questions and the same answers for the same questions of yours! You are moving in a circle by your own questions! You are just like a ship that loses its rudder and you move in a circle until you hit a coral and sink!

AnnieTwo said : I don't remember one allegation you made against Christianity where you used facts.  What I do remember is that you don't accept any answer but your own.

My response: I am using your own Bible to refute your own wild allegations and now you are saying that the Bible doesn't contain facts! Let me quote your own word....AnnieTwo said : I don't remember one allegation you made against Christianity where you used facts.

Lol...........Is the Bible a fiction to you?  I think so.

ak_m_f wrote: AnnieTwo wrote: I think from what I have read of ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity, the majority of them have great love for the Muslims.  This they learned from Jesus. Annie Go, and spread you propaganda somewhere else. Almost all of those "conversion" stories are fake.

a_m_f.....You are right...I have visited the Christian websites and I find the stories of the so-called 'ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity' are illogical and they contains absurdities when I analyse their so-called stories! They are fictional stories invented by the Christians to fool non-Christians....Why do the Christians invent the stories? So many Christians have embraced Islam nowdays in the West!

I am sure some people who leave Islam do hate it. That's why they leave.

Islam teaches that God holds you responsible, and most people don't like to hear that. It is much easier to be able to do what ever you want and fear no consequences. If you are looking for an easy ride and a free pass, Islam is certainly not for you.

However, if you believe that you are held responsible for your own actions and there are consequences for what you do, then you will seek out Islam. Most people who revert to Islam are very logical and somewhat intelligent. They have experienced the other side, usually Christianity, and realise in their hearts and minds that it just doesn't make any sense.

There are Muslims living all over the "free" world. They could leave Islam if they chose. Instead of seeing huge numbers of these Muslims leaving Islam instead we see large numbers of Westerners reverting to Islam. There must be a reason for this.

Here is part of an article written by a Christian Missionary, Larry Poston, who was trying to figure out why so many older, well read, knowledgeable Westerners revert to Islam:

Islam's older converts
My research at Northwestern University investigated religious conversion from another angle. Rather than duplicate the efforts of earlier scholars who limited themselves to the Christian experience, I explored the phenomenon of conversion to another missionary religion�Islam. I examined the published accounts of 60 Western converts to Islam and personally interviewed 10 others. The results contrasted sharply with Starbuck's statistics.

The average age of a Western convert to Islam is approximately 31 years, almost double that of the convert to Christianity. Several persons were in their forties, fifties, and sixties. Islam seems to appeal to a much older group of people. This age difference made the subject of motivating factors of great interest as I investigated why Muslims are apparently reaching an age group in Western societies that Christians are not.

From the testimonies and interviews, it became evident that there are at least five reasons why Westerners choose Islam over Christianity and other religious alternatives. The first is simplicity; the precepts and requirements of Islam are perceived as being much less complicated than those of Christianity. A sincere proclamation of the shahada ("There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger") is all that is required to become a Muslim. Afterwards one must participate in the daily prayers, the Fast of Ramadan, the pilgrimage to Mecca, and almsgiving, but these are not complicated actions and require no engagement in theological or philosophical speculation.

The second factor is rationality. Islam is considered to be a supremely rational faith. The Muslim is not asked to give credence to allegedly "irrational" concepts such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Resurrection of Jesus. Islam presents itself as the natural religion, the faith that one would naturally follow if it were not for the corrupting influences of the Devil and the idolatrous religious systems in which many persons are raised.

Equality is the third factor. The universal brotherhood and equality of all Muslims is a cardinal tenet of Islam, and this is apparently very attractive to Westerners. Muslims take pride in the ceremony connected with their pilgrimage, in which members of every race, class, and ethnic group stand side by side, identically clothed, all worshiping together the One God, Allah.

Fourth, Islam is practical. It is considered a this�worldly religion in contrast to Christianity, which is perceived as abstract in the extreme. Muhammad left his followers a political, social, moral, and economic program founded on religious precepts. Jesus, however, is said to have advocated no such program; it is claimed that the New Testament is so preoccupied with his imminent return that it is impractical for modern life.

Finally, Islam lacks a priesthood. The absence of a spiritual "hierarchy" has attracted many Westerners who have rejected the idea of anyone negotiating with God for them or who have been disappointed and embittered by the scandalous conduct of some Christian leaders.

This study and following article were of course aimed at trying to discover how Christianity can stop these reversions. I guess giving up the Trinity, Original Sin, intermediaries to God, and the divinity of Jesus would help.

In the authors own words:

"But this is not a thesis intended for classroom discussions; it is one that needs to be experimented with and implemented. The church needs groups of believers who will devote themselves to the over-25 age group and "field test" various approaches.

There is an element of haste involved, for the average age of America's population grows older with each year, and the kinds of people evangelicals encounter will be increasingly like my friend Jim. If the church wishes to retain its foothold in this country, the time to begin a shift in evangelistic strategy is now."

Dear Mishmish,

Assalamulikum to you and your family.

Thank you very much for the article Islam's older converts
above . It is a good article.

AbRah2006 wrote: AnnieTwo said : I don't remember one allegation you made against Christianity where you used facts.  What I do remember is that you don't accept any answer but your own. My response: I am using your own Bible to refute your own wild allegations and now you are saying that the Bible doesn't contain facts! Let me quote your own word....AnnieTwo said : I don't remember one allegation you made against Christianity where you used facts. Lol...........Is the Bible a fiction to you?  I think so.

I've been reading your allegations.  They are simply allegations and nothing else.  They show that you do not have a command of interpretation.  It also shows that you cut and paste these allegations without looking into them yourself.

Peace

fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - so having failed to answer my point on the cross/tree issue, and having repeated yourself (as you so often do) by claiming im like a ship without a rudder going round in circles, you now applaud yourself like this - first time ive ever seen somone applaud themselves in a forum, how sad

My response: I have effectively refuted you in the argument****

The same answer of mine for the same question of yours:

My response: Hey Reedoloader....Can't you differentiate a tree from a cross? If it was a cross why did the writers of  Acts write it as a tree? And why did the writers of the Gospels write it as a cross if it was a tree? Were the writers blind that they could not differentiate a tree from a cross? Are you blind too? Why don't you call a cross a tree and vice versa in your daily life? Why?

The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(c)Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Matthew27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Hey Fredi.... I wonder what kind of cross that can grow up consuming fertilisers etc and doing photosynthetic process.

AnnieTwo wrote: fredifreeloader wrote: abrah - you couldnt debate your own shadow.  just who is this ali sina bloke? Hello my friend Fredifeeloader, Ali Sina is very famous.

"Infamous" would be a more accurate word. He is infamous for his trashy site and distasteful polemics.

Annie2 wrote: He is an ex-Muslim and started his own website at FaithFreedom to express his views on Islam which aren't pretty, but I haven't read much of what he writes.

This is his claim. A great deal of his "juvenile" polemics would say that his claim is doubtful, or at least suspect, or perhaps he could have been a Muslim and not understood very much abut his own faith. His bad polemics are evidence that his "ex-Muslimhood" should be questioned. 

Annie2 wrote:   I think he is an atheist now and doesn't believe in any religion because of his experiences with Islam.

What a shame. He will give athiests a very bad name. I know some very well mannered and intelligent athiests.

Annie2 wrote:  Muslims are not fond of him.  That's all I know about him.  From what little I know about Sina, AbRah could not win a debate with him under any circumstances.

It would not matter if someone won a debate with him. He is a vulgar, distasteful lout, who would not debate for the sake of truth. He has been shown for being scrupulous by Nader in the past and he continues with the same billigerent tirades. He gives sophists a bad name.  

Annie2 wrote: There are a lot of ex-Muslims out there that are vehemently against Islam, but a lot of them consider the Muslims a part of their "family" and care about them very, very much as all Christians should. Annie

I would say there are many who make the claim of being an "ex-Muslim", and I have read the arguments of the biggest "examples" held up by detractors of Islam, and I have yet to find any argument that convinces me 1) that they were actually Muslims and 2) that they have some information that is detrimental to my faith 3) that has any outcome on my faith

Peace

Andalus,

 You said it well. Nobody even knows their real names and identities. I have yet to see one real "ex-Muslim" in my own life.

BR & Salaams

BMZ

I will give some examples of Christian missionaries who have embraced Islam and they are active in preaching Islam and their names are genuine and so are their background:

How can I convince you AnnieTwo?

AnnieTwo wrote: AbRah, How can I convince you AnnieTwo? Not by blasting away at the Bible, not by presenting former Christian testimonies who have embraced Islam.  I could counter with former Muslims who have embraced Christianity. You must explain why you believe that Muhammad was a prophet.  What proof do you have?  Why should one believe that Muhammad was a prophet?  The Qur'an is not proof. It is your faith, isn't it?  You have faith that he was a prophet.  Isn't it all based on faith? Were you always a Muslim?  Were you born one?  What is your testimony? Annie

Please introduce yourself to me.

AnnieTwo wrote: AbRah2006 wrote: AnnieTwo wrote: AbRah, How can I convince you AnnieTwo? Not by blasting away at the Bible, not by presenting former Christian testimonies who have embraced Islam.  I could counter with former Muslims who have embraced Christianity. You must explain why you believe that Muhammad was a prophet.  What proof do you have?  Why should one believe that Muhammad was a prophet?  The Qur'an is not proof. It is your faith, isn't it?  You have faith that he was a prophet.  Isn't it all based on faith? Were you always a Muslim?  Were you born one?  What is your testimony? Annie Please introduce yourself to me. Hello, AbRah, I am Annie.

Hello Annie....I am AbRah

AnnieTwo wrote: Andalus, I would say there are many who make the claim of being an "ex-Muslim", and I have read the arguments of the biggest "examples" held up by detractors of Islam, and I have yet to find any argument that convinces me 1) that they were actually Muslims and 2) that they have some information that is detrimental to my faith 3) that has any outcome on my faith BMZ: You said it well. Nobody even knows their real names and identities. I have yet to see one real "ex-Muslim" in my own life. I have never met someone who calls themselves an ex-Christian who  really was a Christian in the first place.  Anyone can call themselves whatever they want, but it takes more than calling yourself a Christian to actually be one.

The real issue that seems to be fading to the background is whether or not the argument is valid, regardless of where it comes from. To say that an argument is wrong because the person calims to be a convert or apostate from some faith would be a fallacy. This is a fallacy eluded to by detractors of Islam who try and bolster Sina's position by saying "he is an apostate from Islam", and many "so called" expert "ex Muslims" also try and elude to the authenticity of their own claims by giving themselves the title of "ex Muslims", and then one can never verify their claim because "they are hiding from death". Very convenient. The fact is, any claim of apostacy does not, in and of itself, give any automatic validation to their claims. And in fact, poor arguments that contain theolgical errors and dishonest manipulation should cast doubt on any personal claim of true apostacy.

Given the definition of a "real Christian" is someone who believes in the main tenents of the church, which requires some aspect of accepting Jesus as lord and savior, it is not hard to find someone who is an ex Christian. I can name a list of 10 off hand who come from legitimate Christian backgrounds. And after their conversion, they did not spend every waking minute opening trashy, third rate internet sites that aim to trash another faith.

Annie2 wrote: A Muslim who says that they were a former "Christian" and has converted to Islam, is not being accurate.

Why?

Annie2 wrote: BMZ, about those "real names."  They change their names because their lives are in danger from the Muslims.  Some change their names because they have found a better one that suits their faith. Annie

 Convenient excuse to hide behind. I challenge you to find me one soild argument from any of your so called, "ex Muslims who cannot verify their own claim publically because they are in some kind of religous protection program". When one exams their arguments, one can find if their knowlegde of their past faith is real or not.

 Peace

AnnieTwo wrote: AbRah, How can I convince you AnnieTwo? Not by blasting away at the Bible, not by presenting former Christian testimonies who have embraced Islam.  I could counter with former Muslims who have embraced Christianity. You must explain why you believe that Muhammad was a prophet.  What proof do you have?  Why should one believe that Muhammad was a prophet?  The Qur'an is not proof. It is your faith, isn't it?  You have faith that he was a prophet.  Isn't it all based on faith? Were you always a Muslim?  Were you born one?  What is your testimony? Annie

Your Gospel contains obvious mistakes.

Please address this point of contention I presented.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4919&PN=3 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4919& ;PN=3

Insha'Allah, I will present more points in the future. They are points that have caused me to reject your faith. 

Annie wrote:

"A Muslim who says that they were a former "Christian" and has converted to Islam, is not being accurate."

I am a former Christian who is now a Muslim. What part am I being inaccurate about?

Everyone in my family are still Christians. My mother was raised in the Catholic Church, but fell away into more Evangelical Christianity as she became an adult. My father and his family were Baptists. My father has passed away. They all still believe that Jesus is the son of God, although my sister Shari who spent many years as a Jehovah's Witness does not believe that Jesus is God. She does however believe that you must accept Jesus as your Savior. They also all believe in the Trinity, except my sister Shari. They cannot logically explain it, just as I could never logically explain it when a Christian, but they believe it.

My grandmother used to tell us stories about revelation and the Bible when we were babies. I grew up on Christianity. I received my first Bible, a white leather King James Version with gold gilding and gold leaf on the front, when I was 5 years old. It had a picture of a very blond, blue-eyed Jesus in the inner jacket, with children and sheep gathered around him as the sun shone through his halo. It was a gift from my Uncle John who was a preacher.  I attended numerous conferences, lectures, etc... regarding Christianity. I was baptised, then baptised again when I reached puberty because I wanted to reaffirm my faith. Even at this early age I was having problems accepting some of the beliefs and dogma of the Christian religion. I thought by being baptised the lack of logic would just wash away.

You will also find that I am not ignorant of Christian doctrine. You cannot say you disbelieve something until you know what it is you disbelieve.