supernatural
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Topic: supernatural
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: supernatural
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 6:21pm
Do muslims believe in the supernatural? In visions?
What do they say about the Marian apparitions reported around the world?
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 8:41pm
 Caringheart wrote:
Do muslims believe in the supernatural? In visions?
What do they say about the Marian apparitions reported around the world?
|
Of course Muslims believe in the supernatural. We believe in God, angels and the jinn.
As for the "Marian apparitions", I would say that they are the result of the one or more of the following:
1. Hoaxes
2. Hallucinations and/or mass hysteria
3. Demonic activity.
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 9:37pm
islamispeace wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Do muslims believe in the supernatural? In visions?
What do they say about the Marian apparitions reported around the world?
|
Of course Muslims believe in the supernatural. We believe in God, angels and the jinn.
As for the "Marian apparitions", I would say that they are the result of the one or more of the following:
1. Hoaxes
2. Hallucinations and/or mass hysteria
3. Demonic activity.
|
Greetings islamispeace,
You should watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yii76a7TSLg
It is in 7 short parts, the first 4 being the most important ones.
Tell me what you think. I would love to know.
asalaam,
Caringheart
-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 10:08pm
Caringheart wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Do muslims believe in the supernatural? In visions?
What do they say about the Marian apparitions reported around the world?
|
Of course Muslims believe in the supernatural. We believe in God, angels and the jinn.
As for the "Marian apparitions", I would say that they are the result of the one or more of the following:
1. Hoaxes
2. Hallucinations and/or mass hysteria
3. Demonic activity.
|
Greetings islamispeace,
You should watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yii76a7TSLg
It is in 7 short parts, the first 4 being the most important ones.
Tell me what you think. I would love to know.
asalaam,
Caringheart
|
Is this supposed to impress me or anyone else?  It seems to me that either of the 3 scenarios I suggested could apply in this case.
Even if these so-called "visions" were real, it could just be due to demonic activity. Think about it. These people dance and pray in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary! Only a demon would encourage such activity! Idolatry has no place in the religion of Abraham (peace be upon him).
As for the Rwandan genocide, if the visions were supposedly "prophesying" the horrific violence that would take place 13 years later, why didn't the visions help stop the violence? Instead, why were 800,000 people still allowed to be slaughtered? Why was one of the supposed "visionaries" among the victims?
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 May 2014 at 11:49pm
islamispeace wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Do muslims believe in the supernatural? In visions?
What do they say about the Marian apparitions reported around the world?
|
Of course Muslims believe in the supernatural. We believe in God, angels and the jinn.
As for the "Marian apparitions", I would say that they are the result of the one or more of the following:
1. Hoaxes
2. Hallucinations and/or mass hysteria
3. Demonic activity.
|
Greetings islamispeace,
You should watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yii76a7TSLg
It is in 7 short parts, the first 4 being the most important ones.
Tell me what you think. I would love to know.
asalaam,
Caringheart
|
Is this supposed to impress me or anyone else? It seems to me that either of the 3 scenarios I suggested could apply in this case.
Even if these so-called "visions" were real, it could just be due to demonic activity. Think about it. These people dance and pray in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary! Only a demon would encourage such activity! Idolatry has no place in the religion of Abraham (peace be upon him).
As for the Rwandan genocide, if the visions were supposedly "prophesying" the horrific violence that would take place 13 years later, why didn't the visions help stop the violence? Instead, why were 800,000 people still allowed to be slaughtered? Why was one of the supposed "visionaries" among the victims?
|
Greetings islamispeace,
Did you even watch? any of it?
The documentary that was made by Immaculee Ilibagiza (survivor of the genocide who went on to work for the UN), was titled, If Only We Had Listened.
It was not "meant to impress".
I was actually hoping for, and indeed expecting, a thoughtfully considered reply. TG seems to think it is possible to have intelligent discussions with you.
Salaam.
-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 11:03am
Caringheart wrote:
Greetings islamispeace,
Did you even watch? any of it?
The documentary that was made by Immaculee Ilibagiza (survivor of the genocide who went on to work for the UN), was titled, If Only We Had Listened.
It was not "meant to impress".
I
was actually hoping for, and indeed expecting, a thoughtfully
considered reply. TG seems to think it is possible to have intelligent
discussions with you.
Salaam. |
Well, in order to have "intelligent discussions" with me, you need to first have "intelligence"! Based on my experience with you, I am not holding my breath!
In any case, did you read my response? I stated why I think these so-called "visions" can be explained using any of the three scenarios I listed. Even demonic activity is possible, given how these people pray to statues. Only a demon would encourage such activity.
If the purpose of the visions was to warn of the coming genocide, then perhaps more information should have been given instead of just some vague visions of "rivers of blood". What ended up happening is that 800,000 people were massacred anyway, and the "visions" did nothing to stop them.
And why is it that the "Virgin Mary" did not return to warn of the many on-going massacres that are occurring not only in Africa but the world? Were there any visions prophesying the violence in the Central African Republic, Sudan, Syria, etc? What is the point of "visions" when they serve no practical purpose and can be interpreted in many ways due to their deliberate vagueness? You might as well claim that Jesus appeared in your toast and told you that the end of the world is nigh!
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 11:52am
islamispeace wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
Greetings islamispeace,
Did you even watch? any of it?
The documentary that was made by Immaculee Ilibagiza (survivor of the genocide who went on to work for the UN), was titled, If Only We Had Listened.
It was not "meant to impress".
I
was actually hoping for, and indeed expecting, a thoughtfully
considered reply. TG seems to think it is possible to have intelligent
discussions with you.
Salaam. |
In any case, did you read my response? I stated why I think these so-called "visions" can be explained using any of the three scenarios I listed. Even demonic activity is possible, given how these people pray to statues.
Greetings islamispeace,
If you watched you would see that there is a whole lot more to it than the only thing you care to take notice of... i.e., "praying to statues"
If the purpose of the visions was to warn of the coming genocide, then perhaps more information should have been given instead of just some vague visions of "rivers of blood". What ended up happening is that 800,000 people were massacred anyway, and the "visions" did nothing to stop them.
Correct... because people did not listen to our Lady.
See, I had hoped you would watch so we could discuss things of actual importance... like the fact that, it seems to me, that these girls were quite obviously not present during their visions... doctors examined and could prick them with pins and they would not flinch, they could touch the eyeball and they did not blink... and they remained this way sometimes for 18 hours.
like the fact that if you watch their faces and listen to their words and descriptions it is hard to doubt the veracity of what was taking place...
when the visions of the atrocities to come were being shown to them the sorrow was written all over their faces,
as was the joy at the initial visitations.
I find all these things fascinating and quite compelling.
These are the things I had hope to be able to discuss your reactions to... your thoughts...
but I guess if you wish to keep your mind closed...
And why is it that the "Virgin Mary" did not return to warn of the many on-going massacres that are occurring not only in Africa but the world? Were there any visions prophesying the violence in the Central African Republic, Sudan, Syria, etc? What is the point of "visions" when they serve no practical purpose and can be interpreted in many ways due to their deliberate vagueness?
Are you familiar with the appearances of our Lady at Fatima?
You might as well claim that Jesus appeared in your toast and told you that the end of the world is nigh!
So I guess then, you don't really believe in the supernatural. Since you make a joke of it. I was hoping for intelligent discussion not mere mockery.
Oh well. Thanks anyway for initially replying to my thread. Maybe someone else will be able to discuss.
asalaam,
Caringheart
|
-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 1:35pm
Caringheart wrote:
If you watched you would see that there is a whole
lot more to it than the only thing you care to take notice of... i.e.,
"praying to statues" |
Why am I not surprised that you would try to downplay the overt acts of idolatry these people indulge in? When I saw that, it was enough to tell me that these so-called "visions" are not genuine messages from the divine but rather either the result of mass delusions or even worse, a cruel Satanic trick. Only Satan would encourage idol worship.
What if someone claimed that their idols came "alive" or that they had visions from their "gods" prophesying some future event? Would you just blindly believe them? Check this video out. What do you think is at play here? Mass hysteria? A Hoax? Satanic activity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4
Caringheart wrote:
Correct... because people did not listen to our Lady. |
Well, who can blame them? The "Lady" did not provide any concrete information, did she? No, just vague "visions" of "rivers of blood".
It would have been more worthwhile if the "Lady" would have provided some real information, such as when the massacres would occur, who would be responsible, some warning signs of the coming violence, etc. Any of this information would have been priceless as it could have actually saved thousands of lives. Why didn't the "Lady" provide the identities of the main ringleaders of the genocide? Maybe with that information, organizations like the Interahamwe militia could have been stopped.
Carinhheart wrote:
See, I had hoped you would watch so we could
discuss things of actual importance... like the fact that, it seems to
me, that these girls were quite obviously not present during their
visions... doctors examined and could prick them with pins and they
would not flinch, they could touch the eyeball and they did not blink...
and they remained this way sometimes for 18 hours. |
That could be due to a disorder known as "periodic catatonia". Or it could be that these people had practiced to assume this state. Or it may have been due to genuine demonic activity. Anything is possible. It doesn't mean that these people were actually receiving divine visions, which in the end, did nothing to stop the horrific violence they were purportedly "prophesying".
Caringheart wrote:
like the fact that if you watch their faces and
listen to their words and descriptions it is hard to doubt the veracity
of what was taking place...
when the visions of the atrocities to come were being shown to them the sorrow was written all over their faces,
as was the joy at the initial visitations.
I find all these things fascinating and quite compelling.
These are the things I had hope to be able to discuss your reactions to... your thoughts...
but I guess if you wish to keep your mind closed... |
It's your mind that is closed. You just show your gullibility in believing this nonsense without thinking. Why does that seem to be your mantra?
"Don't think. Just believe." Well, sorry to disappoint ya, but it ain't gonna happen! I prefer to think using my God-given common sense and reason instead of just blindly accepting these stories. I find these stories no more "compelling" than the claims of people who think they have been abducted by aliens or the so-called "milk miracle" shown in the video above. Most of the time, these people are just the victims of their own imaginations. In a small amount of cases, I think it is possible that they are actually the victims of demonic tricks. Satan plays on the superstitions of gullible people to get them to do and believe things which are an offense to God.
Caringheart wrote:
Are you familiar with the appearances of our Lady at Fatima? |
Yes, and it is just another example of the mass hysteria that is prevalent in the Catholic Church. In this case, there were more vague "visions" and no concrete information.
Caringheart wrote:
So I guess then, you don't really believe in the
supernatural. Since you make a joke of it. I was hoping for
intelligent discussion not mere mockery.
Oh well. Thanks anyway for initially replying to my thread. Maybe someone else will be able to discuss. |
 Oh bravo. Didn't I mention that these "visions" could be due to demonic activity? The last time I checked, demons belonged to the supernatural realm! And yes, I make a joke of it because it is pure nonsense. The so-called "Lady" didn't think it was prudent of her to provide some real information. Instead, she just decided to "tease" these people and scare them, and in the end, give them no means to actually stop the horrific violence that would grip the country in 1994. She might as well have appeared in their toast and say "Hi ya! Just stopping by!" By the way, do you realize that during the genocide, the small Muslim community actually saved many Tutsis from the murderous Hutu gangs, while many church leaders actively promoted the violence? Why didn't the "Lady" identify the evil church leaders who would promote the violence so that they could have been ousted before stirring their congregations to commit barbaric acts of genocide?
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 3:30pm
islamispeace wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4
I was intrigued, mostly because I found this frightening. I know these are the very pagan idols which the God of Abraham spoke against. At least though, I didn't just dismiss what I am seeing and what has been reported. I did some researching into it and find that there seems to be a plausible scientific explanation... although there is no explanation for why the phenomena stops after short periods only to return again at later times. So it is still a mystery.
The "Lady" did not provide any concrete information, did she? No, just vague "visions" of "rivers of blood".
Aghhh... Why couldn't you have just watched the video? then speak. then maybe your input would have some value.
Why couldn't you just keep an open mind and watch the video, and see the things which the Lady did have to say. It's all in there. If the people would have listened they could have been spared.
It took me a whole day to watch the video through the first time. I don't know that I can sacrifice another day to go back through it to show you the things that were spoken in the visions that absolutely would have helped to save the people.
It would have been more worthwhile if the "Lady" would have provided some real information, such as when the massacres would occur, who would be responsible, some warning signs of the coming violence, etc.
You think with the limited mind of human being. If the almighty Creator of all doesn't give it to you in the way your human mind thinks that He should, then it doesn't count... it has no value ??? (You really should read the book of Job)
Who are you to tell God the way that He should communicate? What if you were to apply that same standard to the angel that appeared to Muhammad? If God wanted people to believe why did an angel appear only to one man in a cave? Do you question allah on this?
That could be due to a disorder known as "periodic catatonia". Or it could be that these people had practiced to assume this state.
If you watched I do not think you would be making this statement.
If you were to make this statement after watching, I could maybe accept it. We could actually have intellectual discussion.
You just show your gullibility in believing this nonsense without thinking. Why does that seem to be your mantra?
"Don't think. Just believe." You think I blindly accepted? That just shows you have learned nothing about me in all this time. I do alot of thinking or I would not be here to discuss. I consider all things and am not afraid to research.
Lady of Fatima
so then you are unaware of the prophesies regarding the collapse of communism in Russia?
and the attempt on the life of the Pope?
These things which clearly came to pass.
You haven't watched the video so you are completely unaware of what the Lady said. You speak with no knowledge. You are afraid your own belief might be challenged?
There was a means to stop what happened. The killing was the result of demon activity. If the people had turned to God, as the Lady implored them to do, they would have found the protection of God against these demon possessions. You see, you have the idea of who the demons were, all backwards, which you would understand if you watched the program Ghosts of Rwanda. You really should watch. Those who did the killing have this many years later such grief over it, and speak of how they have no explanation, it was "as if we became possessed".
It would help also in understanding the demon possessed men who remove the hearts and livers of human beings in Syria to eat them.
We must be sure to recognize and separate what is true evil.
Also, had you been open minded enough to watch this video, you would know that the way Immaculee Ilibagiza and 6 others survived was by a pastor who kept them hidden.
I'm sure their was good and evil on both sides to go around.
Just goes to show, it is not about being 'muslim', or 'Christian', or anything else. It is about being for God, or not.
asalaam,
Caringheart
|
-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 6:27pm
Caringheart wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhfPSxkdb4
I
was intrigued, mostly because I found this frightening. I know these
are the very pagan idols which the God of Abraham spoke against. At
least though, I didn't just dismiss what I am seeing and what has been
reported. I did some researching into it and find that there seems to
be a plausible scientific explanation... although there is no
explanation for why the phenomena stops after short periods only to
return again at later times. So it is still a mystery. |
Thank you for proving my point! You were skeptical of these so-called "miracles", and you find it "plausible" that there is a "scientific explanation". Yet, when it comes to the so-called "visions" in Rwanda, in your biased view, they must be genuine, even though there are other, more plausible explanations, such as the ones I have suggested.
By the way, you also showed your double standards with regard to the idols. You admit that the Hindu idols are an offense to God, yet you don't seem to think the statues of Mary are also offensive to Him!  Those people pray to the statue! How different is that from Hindus praying to their idols of Ganesh or Shiva?! If Mary had genuinely visited these people, she would have warned them to stop their idolatrous practices.
Caringheart wrote:
Aghhh... Why couldn't you have just watched the video? then speak. then maybe your input would have some value.
Why couldn't you just keep an open mind and watch the video, and see the things which the Lady did have to say. It's all in there. If the people would have listened they could have been spared.
It took me a whole day to watch the video through
the first time. I don't know that I can sacrifice another day to go
back through it to show you the things that were spoken in the visions
that absolutely would have helped to save the people. |
You are so full of crap, it's not even funny. Oh wait, yes it is...
I have already looked into the so-called "visions". I don't need to watch the entire video. I have better things to do. From what I have read, the visions provided absolutely no concrete information, so you are just a liar or just plain confused.
Here is what the "Lady" showed the "visionaries" about the coming war:
"...a
river of blood, people who were killing each other, abandoned corpses
with no one to bury them, a tree all in flames, bodies without their
heads." ( http://www.michaeljournal.org/kibeho.htm - http://www.michaeljournal.org/kibeho.htm )
Wow, that's impressive isn't it?
So, there was no information given that could have been used to try to halt the violence before it began. Just vague references to a "river of blood" and "killing". Yeah, that should have narrowed it down a bit! 
Caringheart wrote:
You think with the limited mind of human being.
If the almighty Creator of all doesn't give it to you in the way your
human mind thinks that He should, then it doesn't count... it has no
value ??? (You really should read the book of Job) |
Well, I am a human being, so how should I think? 
Since you obviously don't think "with the limited mind of human being", that must mean that you are not a human being! Eureka, I got it! Your secret's out, Caringheart!
Caringheart wrote:
Who are you to tell God the way that He should
communicate? What if you were to apply that same standard to the angel
that appeared to Muhammad? If God wanted people to believe why did an
angel appear only to one man in a cave? Do you question allah on this? |
Calm down, Caringheart. Don't get too worked up.
You obviously cannot answer the difficult questions I have asked. I guess you were just joking when you claimed that you wanted to have an "intelligent discussion", eh? 
I have asked perfectly legitimate questions. The so-called "visions" would have been more impressive if some concrete information would have been given, such as the exact date that the genocide would begin, the ringleaders that would be involved and the warning signs that the violence was imminent (such as the shooting down of the Hutu president's plane, which was the immediate cause of the violence). NONE of this information was provided by the so-called "Lady". What a cruel joke...It sounds like the work of Satan to me or perhaps just a random incident of mass hysteria.
Caringheart wrote:
If you watched I do not think you would be making this statement.
If you were to make this statement after watching, I could maybe accept it. We could actually have intellectual discussion.
|
Right now, there is not much "intelligence" coming from you, just a lot of inane babble. Periodic catatonia can easily explain the states these people were in. So could demonic activity.
Caringheart wrote:
You think I blindly accepted? That just shows you
have learned nothing about me in all this time. I do alot of thinking
or I would not be here to discuss. I consider all things and am not
afraid to research. |
Sure, sure...
Caringheart wrote:
Lady of Fatima
so then you are unaware of the prophesies regarding the collapse of communism in Russia?
and the attempt on the life of the Pope?
These things which clearly came to pass. |
Thank you for showing how much "research" and "thinking" you have really done on this matter. For those who use their reason, let me debunk your nonsense.
The first "prophecy" made by the...ahem..."Lady" was the end of World War I and the start of World War II:
"...but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out
during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an
unknown light, know that this is the great sign given to you by God that
He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine
and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father."
Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Oh but wait, here is the kicker:
"Lucia revealed this prophecy in writing during 1940 - after the Second
World War had already begun. Also, it's interesting that Pius XI is
actually named in the prophecy. When the apparition of Our Lady
allegedly made the prophecy in 1917, Benedict XV was Pope. Pius XI
became Pope in 1922. So either Our Lady also predicted the name of the
future Pope, who reigned until 1939, or Lucia did some prophecy
fulfilling of her own." ( http://paranormal.about.com/od/marianapparitions/a/fatima-prophecies.htm - http://paranormal.about.com/od/marianapparitions/a/fatima-prophecies.htm )
And as for the alleged prophecy about the "attempt on the life of the Pope", here is what the "prophecy" actually stated:
"...the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half
trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed
for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top
of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed
by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him..."
So, if this was a reference to the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul, then it was a pathetically incorrect. In other words, it was a false prophecy. And by the way, what soldier still uses "arrows" in this day and age?
Caringheart wrote:
You haven't watched the video so you are
completely unaware of what the Lady said. You speak with no knowledge.
You are afraid your own belief might be challenged? |
Oh I love it when superstitious simpletons cannot defend their absurd claims and so lash out at those who criticize them. Don't blame me for your so-called "Lady's" incompetence. It is obvious that you and the other gullible people who believe this nonsense have been easily taken in by a cruel joke. It was either a result of an elaborate hoax or the work of demonic forces.
Caringheart wrote:
There was a means to stop what happened. The
killing was the result of demon activity. If the people had turned to
God, as the Lady implored them to do, they would have found the
protection of God against these demon possessions. You see, you have
the idea of who the demons were, all backwards, which you would
understand if you watched the program Ghosts of Rwanda. You
really should watch. Those who did the killing have this many years
later such grief over it, and speak of how they have no explanation, it
was "as if we became possessed". |
Oh how convenient! So these monsters perpetrated some of the worst acts of violence and then did not have the integrity to accept responsibility and instead blamed the devil. It sounds like they were trying to make excuses. It would have been more prudent if they had just accepted responsibility and face their punishment.
Caringheart wrote:
It would help also in understanding the demon
possessed men who remove the hearts and livers of human beings in Syria
to eat them.
We must be sure to recognize and separate what is true evil. |
People don't have to be "demon possessed" in order to to bad things. Responsibility lies with those who commit these crimes. Blaming the devil is a cop-out. The devil makes suggestions. He doesn't force people to do things. They do it themselves at the instigation of the devil.
Caringheart wrote:
Also, had you been open minded enough to watch this video, you would know that the way Immaculee Ilibagiza and 6 others survived was by a pastor who kept them hidden.
I'm sure their was good and evil on both sides to go around.
Just goes to show, it is not about being 'muslim', or 'Christian', or anything else. It is about being for God, or not. |
How surprising that you try to downplay the fact that numerous church leaders took part in the genocide! Of course there were church leaders who hid people, but there were just as many leaders who stood by and allowed the massacres to occur. Why didn't the "Lady" point out these future murderers of the church?
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 9:57pm
islamispeace wrote:
Thank you for proving my point! You were skeptical of these so-called "miracles", and you find it "plausible" that there is a "scientific explanation". Yet, when it comes to the so-called "visions" in Rwanda, in your biased view, they must be genuine, even though there are other, more plausible explanations, such as the ones I have suggested.
Greetings islamispeace,
That's where you are wrong. I watched both video's with the same critical eye.
While I admitted that there might be a plausible scientific explanation for the one you provided... I also said...
"although there is no
explanation for why the phenomena stops after short periods only to
return again at later times. So it is still a mystery."
The more I watched the video of Kibeho, the more compelling I found the girls visions to be, that's why I am interested to discuss with others what they think after viewing.
By the way, you also showed your double standards with regard to the idols. You admit that the Hindu idols are an offense to God, yet you don't seem to think the statues of Mary are also offensive to Him! Those people pray to the statue! How different is that from Hindus praying to their idols of Ganesh or Shiva?!
The Hindus actually believe their statues to be gods.
No one believes a statue of Mary to be a god. It is merely a representation of her image... of a person who actually walked the earth,
but I am not for these statues either. I just don't think people are condemned for worshiping God in front of one... not when they in their hearts are worshiping the God of their heart.
I'm not saying that the people aren't misguided, because that is why Mary was appearing to them, because they were off of God's path.
I honestly don't know if a statue of Mary, mother of Yshwe, is an offense to God.
Things did change after Yshwe came. He brought with Him a whole new covenant with God.
If Mary had genuinely visited these people, she would have warned them to stop their idolatrous practices.
Perhaps. But then one must consider that if the vision is true, the fact that she did not. She seemed to have more important things to address.
Well, I am a human being, so how should I think?
As I said, you should read the book of Job, and understand what I am saying. As Yshwe said; 'He that hath ears to hear, let him hear' and understand.
God rebukes Job with the words, 'Do you have the mind of God to say how He should do? Did you create the heavens and the earth, and all that is in it?'
Can you explain how a person can stare at the sun without their retina's burning?
The girls were studied by psychologists who found no earthly explanations. This was all detailed in the video.
If I apply your reasoning, then I guess one could say also that Muhammad may have been possessed by demons. Why do you believe that He was not?
At least in these cases we have actual film footage and many witnesses of the events as they took place. It is truly astounding footage to watch.
What do you think demon possessed behavior would look like?
You think these girls may have been demon possessed, though their faces shine with joy and then sorrow...
but you reject that horrific killings that took place could have been caused by demon possession?
If you ask me it is quite obvious which is demon possessed behavior.
Oh I love it when superstitious simpletons cannot defend their absurd claims and so lash out at those who criticize them.
I wasn't lashing out. I just wonder what it is that keeps you from opening your mind. I conclude it must be fear.
Why, I ask, do you feel the need to criticize instead of discuss?
It would be beneficial if you could learn to have civil conversation, even as you discuss your differing ideas, without feeling the need to throw insults at people. Your words don't lose weight when they carry with them mocking and insults. The fact that you need to mock and insult causes your arguments to be lacking in persuasiveness.
Caringheart wrote:
There was a means to stop what happened. The
killing was the result of demon activity. If the people had turned to
God, as the Lady implored them to do, they would have found the
protection of God against these demon possessions. You see, you have
the idea of who the demons were, all backwards, which you would
understand if you watched the program Ghosts of Rwanda. You
really should watch. Those who did the killing have this many years
later such grief over it, and speak of how they have no explanation, it
was "as if we became possessed". |
Oh how convenient! So these monsters perpetrated some of the worst acts of violence and then did not have the integrity to accept responsibility and instead blamed the devil. It sounds like they were trying to make excuses. It would have been more prudent if they had just accepted responsibility and face their punishment.
Again, you would not say that if you opened your mind and watched Ghosts of Rwanda. I guess you do not recognize that;
12 ... we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I guess you do not believe, even as you say that you do... in the power of demons on earth.
The men of Rwanda do accept responsibility and punishment. There are many that do not feel they deserve to live, but live they must. Dying would be easier.
People don't have to be "demon possessed" in order to to bad things. Responsibility lies with those who commit these crimes. Blaming the devil is a cop-out. The devil makes suggestions. He doesn't force people to do things. They do it themselves at the instigation of the devil.
Apparently you don't believe in the power of the devil to posses,
and you must not believe in Yshwe who cast out demons.
"We must be sure to recognize and separate what is true evil."
[Quote=Caringheart]
I'm sure their was good and evil on both sides to go around.[quote]
How surprising that you try to downplay the fact that numerous church leaders took part in the genocide! Of course there were church leaders who hid people, but there were just as many leaders who stood by and allowed the massacres to occur.
I'm not downplaying anything. (Why were you upplaying the role of muslims? I did not attack you for doing this. In fact I agreed that I am sure their was good and evil on both sides to go around, and that being 'muslim' or 'Christian' had nothing to do with who was good and who was evil.)
Anyway please provide your source. I would like to read what you know about these 'church leaders that took part in the genocide'.
(I have been re-watching, and the video does say, 'in some cases priests aided in the killings and it is easy to conclude that evil was involved'. This only brings me back to what I originally said, that good and evil can exist anywhere and we must be careful in discerning what is true evil. It can overtake anyone, at anytime.)
Shukran and salaam,
Caringheart
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Do you believe in the power of prayer?
Added note: Your theory of Periodic catatonia does not apply since the girls were not catatonic but rather were animated, awake, and coherent.
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 May 2014 at 11:43pm
As regards the presidents plane being shot down...
you should listen to the radio broadcasts that were the direct cause of the violence...
They made vile statements and very deliberately incited the hutu's to violence against the tutsi's...
quite similar to how people were incited to violence all over the place, on the pretext of the Muhammad video, after the Benghazi incident.
"Men who hated the tutsi's took over the government."
"They killed, even their neighbor, babies and women, with no emotions."
You don't think this is demonic?
There is much to be learned from Rwanda...
so much to be learned.
-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Posted By: adrainsmith
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:11pm
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Supernatural Vegas
Con was my 9th Supernatural convention, and close to 30th convention
overall.
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