What you guys running here?
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Topic: What you guys running here?
Posted By: Anatolian
Subject: What you guys running here?
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:58pm
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I had posted a topic which responds to Azalean's post on the pagan roots of
Christmas basically attacking Christians and there faith but when I responded back to the pagan roots of the Hajj my post was removed. Truly a one sided argument here isn't it. When you can't respond to something you completely remove it because it might be "dangerous" to some to find the truth. History teaches us that truth eventually will always over power all. That is also written in the Quran numerous times is it not? So the administrator who removed this post was unislamic and quite unjust. Great work, hypocrite! |
Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 11:11pm
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I never saw your post actually. Also, I am curious to know where you get the idea that Hajj has pagan roots. |
Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 11:37pm
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I'm worried Big Brother might delete it, but I'll go ahead.
In pre Islamic days, the Arabs of the Peninsula were pagans (that is a fact for those of you who deny this). Each tribe worshiped an idol. Once a year all the tribes would gather in Mecca and worship the Kab'aa which housed each tribes idols. With the rise of Islam, the last stronghold to follow Muhammed was the Quraeish tribe (Muhammed's clan), which ruled Mecca, and Mecca's prime source of income, pilgrims. Before the final comencement of battle, they (the Quraeish and Muhammed), reached an agreement. The Hajj would remain a practice only this time it would be free of idols and praises were to be said to Allah. So the Quraeish accepted this. They would retain the guardianship and economic benefits of the Hajj and Muhammed won because by the Meccan chiefs acceptance to Islam's fold he eliminated the remaining pagan stronghold in the Hijaz. Why was this removed? Every religion has traditions and roots to whatever the previous faith was. Christians use a ornamented tree at Christmas time but that stems from the Germanic feast of winter which collides with the Christian celebrations. It's not a Christian teaching to do so it's completly secular and Christians know this. They are not ashamed nor worry from where it stems. It's simply....fun. Muslims also have many traditions I'm sure that stem back to pagan days. One can never completly eliminate his past, he simply forges it into the present. |
Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:08am
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From Reza Aslan's book "No god but God":
Chapter 1 Arabia. The Sixth Century C.E. IN THE ARID, desolate basin of Mecca, surrounded on all sides by the bare mountains of the Arabian desert, stands a small, nondescript sanctuary that the ancient Arabs refer to as the Kaaba: the Cube. The Kaaba is a squat, roofless edifice made of unmortared stones and sunk into a valley of sand. Its four walls-so low it is said a young goat can leap over them- are swathed in strips of heavy cloth. At its base, two small doors are chiseled into the gray stone, allowing entry into the inner sanctum. It is here, inside the cramped interior of the sanctuary, that the gods of pre- Islamic Arabia reside: Hubal, the Syrian god of the moon; al-Uzza, the powerful goddess the Egyptians knew as Isis and the Greeks called Aphrodite; al-Kutba, the Nabataean god of writing and divination; Jesus, the incarnate god of the Christians, and his holy mother, Mary. In all, there are said to be three hundred sixty idols housed in and around the Kaaba, representing every god recognized in the Arabian Peninsula. During the holy months, when the desert fairs and the great markets envelop the city of Mecca, pilgrims from all over the Peninsula make their way to this barren land to visit their tribal deities. They sing songs of worship and dance in front of the gods; they make sacrifices and pray for health. Then, in a remarkable ritual-the origins of which are a mystery- the pilgrims gather as a group and rotate around the Kaaba seven times, some pausing to kiss each corner of the sanctuary before being captured and swept away again by the current of bodies. The pagan Arabs gathered around the Kaaba believe their sanctuary to have been founded by Adam, the first man. They believe that Adam's original edifice was destroyed by the Great Flood, then rebuilt by Noah. They believe that after Noah, the Kaaba was forgotten for centuries until Abraham rediscovered it while visiting his firstborn son, Ismail, and his concubine, Hagar, both of whom had been banished to this wilderness at the behest of Abraham's wife, Sarah. And they believe it was at this very spot that Abraham nearly sacrificed Ismail before being stopped by the promise that, like his younger brother, Isaac, Ismail would also sire a great nation, the descendants of whom now spin over the sandy Meccan valley like a desert whirlwind. Of course, these are just stories intended to convey what the Kaaba means, not where it came from. The truth is that no one knows who built the Kaaba, or how long it has been here. It is likely that the sanctuary was not even the original reason for the sanctity of this place. Near the Kaaba is a well called Zamzam, fed by a bountiful underground spring, which tradition claims had been placed there to nourish Hagar and Ismail. It requires no stretch of the imagination to recognize how a spring situated in the middle of the desert could become a sacred place for the wandering Bedouin tribes of Arabia. The Kaaba itself may have been erected many years later, not as some sort of Arab pantheon, but as a secure place to store the consecrated objects used in the rituals that had evolved around Zamzam. Indeed, the earliest traditions concerning the Kaaba claim that inside its walls was a pit, dug into the sand, which contained "treasures" magically guarded by a snake. It is also possible that the original sanctuary held some cosmological significance for the ancient Arabs. Not only were many of the idols in the Kaaba associated with the planets and stars, but the legend that they totaled three hundred sixty in number suggests astral connotations. The seven circumambulations of the Kaaba-called tawaf in Arabic and still the primary ritual of the annual Hajj pilgrimage-may have been intended to mimic the motion of the heavenly bodies. It was, after all, a common belief among ancient peoples that their temples and sanctuaries were terrestrial replicas of the cosmic mountain from which creation sprang. The Kaaba, like the Pyramids in Egypt or the Temple in Jerusalem, may have been constructed as an axis mundi, sometimes called a "navel spot": a sacred space around which the universe revolves, the link between the earth and the solid dome of heaven. That would explain why there was once a nail driven into the floor of the Kaaba that the ancient Arabs referred to as "the navel of the world." As G. R. Hawting has shown, the ancient pilgrims would sometimes enter the sanctuary, tear off their clothes, and place their own navels over the nail, thereby merging with the cosmos. Alas, as with so many things about the Kaaba, its origins are mere speculation. The only thing scholars can say with any certainty is that by the sixth century C.E., this small sanctuary made of mud and stone had become the center of religious life in pre-Islamic Arabia: that intriguing yet ill-defined era of paganism that Muslims refer to as the Jahiliyyah-"the Time of Ignorance." |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:01pm
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The article by Reza Aslan and the post by anatolian is based on wrong ideas, bad information. See specially the last para of the above post. Also Reza calling Hagar a concubine of Abraham is objectionable. It is written in bible OT that Sarah who had lost all hope of bearing any children had herself told Abraham to take Hagar as a wife. Then what is the justification for any one calling Hagar the concubine of Abraham. This can only be the word of some ignorant enemy of Islam. The rest of the article or post is meaningless, misinformed and not true. To say that no one knows who built the ka'abah is wrong. At least it is clear from Bible OT and definite from the Quran that Abraham and Ismael built the Ka'abah. Abraham had left his wife Hagar and son Ishmael there in Arabia. Both the religious books support that. Then why to deny it?? The origins of Makkah and Ka'abah being pagan is no harm at all. But it is wrong on one count. The origin was never pagan. That House was built for the unitarian faith only. Since no prophet had come in the descendents of Ishmael, they were spread all over Arabia, they reverted to paganism. Originally they were not pagans at all. Their ancestors were Abraham and Ishmael. They were not pagan. But the later generations became pagan (Mushrik or polytheists). There is no harm. It can happen. Do you see the pagan state of christianity today. It was surely not so during the time of Jesus. So things happen with time and people get misled. The topic is not right. We can say that before the advent of Islam around 600 A.D. the life in Makkah was pagan. That is all. But to say that the origin of Makkans was pagan is a lie. Now I may inform the friends about the wisdom of Abraham a.s. He had two sons. The eldest, first one was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Issac was born from first wife Sarah when Abraham was 99 years old. Abraham settled both his sons very far away from each other. Ishmael was settled in the desert mountaneous area of Arabia. Issac was in Palestine. There is a long history of the two lines, Israelis and Ishmaelis. The Israelis had to become slaves in Egypt for a long time. They returned or came out of Egypt by the good work of the prophet Moses a.s. I come to the point... Palestine was well inhabited and being ruled by the kings at the time of Jesus a.s. Every one knows that Jesus suffered very much in that home place and was almost unsuccessful in his home area. That was dure to the connivance of the rulers and the religious people. Abraham had much bad experience of the kings and priests from his home area (Iraq) which he had to leave (migrate). Abraham settled Ishmael in desert area, of no interest to any king. That is where the last prophet Muhammad was born and he (Muhammad) also had much trouble with the local people. But thanks to Allah that there was no king nearby. The prophet became successful and overcame the pagans. That was all due to the master plan of Allah, AlHamdu Lillah. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 11:23pm
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Thank you minuteman for the reply.
By posting Reza Aslan's passage I didn't mean to bring up the Ishmael and Hagar story it will only diverge this into another topic which won't coincide with the main issue. I see where you find the problem with the wording of "concubine" being used for Hagar. An Arab especially would find that demeaning because of the obvious line of decent from Abraham's "relationship" with Hagar. She wasn't married to Abraham. She was a servant to Sarah. By Sarah not giving birth to a child she gave Abraham Hagar to conceive. Back to the main issue. Before we go on into further debate I will need your sources. Where does it say in the OT that Ishmael and Abraham built the Ka'baa? This is in the Qu'ran not in the Bible. If I am mistaken please show me. The thing that I found interesting is this. How can Abraham and Ishmael both rebuild the Ka'baa (according to your traditions Adam built it first, would that make the Garden of Eden in Mecca or near it?), yet when Sarah forced Abraham to send away Hagar and Ishmael to the southern desert, Abraham had made no contact with them. The only time Ishmael ever saw his father was at his funeral. The origins of the Arabs was pagan (Wataniyeen in Arabic). Why is that so shamefull to you? The whole world was pagan at one point except for the Hebrew tradition of a single God that goes back a few millenia. What exactly do you mean by unitarian faith? The Hejaz was home to countless religions. They coexisted quite peacefully to tell you the truth. There were tribes that consisted of Jews, Christians, Pagans, and even those that comprised of ancient Egyptian, Roman, and Greek gods and godesses beliefs. Isis, the Egyptian goddess was quite popular with the tribes. The Ka'baa once held a statue of Jesus and Mary so it's obvious that there were Christians among the Arabs. How can you say Jesus was unseccusfull in his area? Within a generation most of Galilea and Samaria was converted. But they fled mostly to Damascus when the Jews began slaughtering the converts. Today's Christians that live in the Damascus area are decendents of Jews. Please explain to me why you threw out the whole article as untrue and based on lies. Reza Aslan is a well respected correspondent to CNN and has a masters degree in theology. He obviously maintains a high level of credentials to sell a popular book across the world and continues as a religious expert in the media. If you discredit him you must have a decent enough excuse and sources to back your statements up. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 12:32am
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Then what did you mean?? I see where you find the problem with the How do you know that she was not married. What was the mode of marriage in those days?? Do you know it?? It was only necessary to go to a ladylegally and that union of Hagar and Abraham was quite legal. She was a servant to Sarah. By Sarah not giving birth to a child she gave Abraham Hagar to conceive. Servants are not to be used for concieving and bringing up a race. Yes, she gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife to concieve. Not as a concubine. That is a bad blame on you if you are still insisting on using bad words. Please see bible Ot chapter 16, verses 1-5: 1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Can you see the word wife there?? Then why did you use the word concubine. That shows your ignorance or bias. Sarah thinks of Hagar as the wife of Abraham. But you think of Hagar as a concubine. Why?? That is also wrong. Abraham took his wife Hagar and first born son Ishmael to Arabia and left them there. Then he kept on visiting them at differnt times. Abraham was not with Sarah when she died. He was with Hagar and Ishmael. When he got the news of the death of Sarah, he went back to her place to mourn her. All detail about Ishmael is not in the bible OT. Most of it is in the Quran. Abraham visited Arabia many times as follows: 1. When he was asked to sacrifice his dearest thing in the way of Allah, he was there in Arabia and he presented his beloved first born son Ishmael for sacrifice. 2. He was in Arabia when he with Ishmael built the Ka'abah, the sacred house for the worship of one God only. 3. He visited the area much later after his son Ishmael was married. But came back without meeting his son. That marriage of Ishmael was dissolved on his advice by some coded message to his son. 4. Abraham visited the place again and found that Ishmael had shunned the first wife and remarried. Abraham did not meet his son. But he in a coded message approved that marriage. 5. He was there with the family away from palestine when Sarah died. You are quite misinformed about many things about Abraham. He was a strict unitarian and so was Ishmael and Issac and Jacob. Abraham and Ishmael both built the ka'abah. All news about the sacred house at Makkah have been carefully covered up in the bible OT. Was Abraham a pagan?? That is the question. He is the head of the Arabs. You are absolutely wrong about that pagan origin of the Arabs. Arabs are the descendents of Abraham. There were people in Arabia. But the place where Abraham settled his son (now Makkah) was not inhabited by any one. He and Ishmael started the habitation there and that was not pagan. Abraham is the father of all Arabs and he was not pagan. Paganism may have spread there in all Arabia well after the time of Abraham and Ishmael. That is true. But you cannot say that origin of Arabs was pagan. That would mean Abraham, the great father of the Aabs was a pagan. Do you want to say that? What exactly do you mean by unitarian faith? The Hejaz was home to You can say that before the advent of the prophet Muhammad, all arabia was pagan. That would be right. But That was a much later time. generation most of Galilea and Samaria was converted. But they fled mostly to It is well known that the christians were being punished and suffered for the three hundred years. They remained in hiding. You know it. It is not one generation. Jesus was caught before he could do anything and he was put on the cross. That was the end of Jesus. As a known culprit and dead man he could not appear in public. He moved for a short time in hiding, in disguise. So what do you want to know more about the success of Jesus?? Reza Aslan is a well respected correspondent to CNN and I do not deny the capability of Aslan. He may be anything, a very highly qualified person. I admire all his qualifications. But we see other books too, i.e. Bible OT, NT and the Quran and Hadith. Aslan's report does not match with those things. Just saying the word "Concubine" when the word "wife" is there in the bible OT shows that it is biased or uninformed about many things.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Anatolian wrote:Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:12am
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Minuteman we are going to have a hard time you and I because in the
first place I just checked my Bible (Saint Joseph Catholic Edition in English), I also checked my French Bible and the word I see is concubine in both, not wife. Abraham was not a polygamist. You say wife because that is more, how should I say "politcally correct". It hits a nerve with the Arabs being dencendents of a concubine. That is why you change it, I understand completly. Besides who at the time gave women a law to marry off people? Not even in Islam are women allowed to perform such duties as marriage (same as Catholicism, majority of Protestantism, and Judaism). Which Bible are you using here where you find wife? Abraham never visited Arabia. The farthest south he had ever gone was Beersheba just to the north of the Sinai. He also went to Egypt but never the Hijjaz. I am still wondering what you mean by unitarian? Abraham believed in the God of the Jews and Christians the single God. I never said he was pagan. Just because Ishmael was his son, his decendents drifted to paganism. What is the meaning of unitarian here? It also doesnt say that Hagar was chased out to Mecca it says that when Hagar was pregnant, out of jealousy Sarai abused her. Hagar ran off but the Lord appeared to her and told her to go back to Sarai and basically put up with it. But he promised her that her son would be born strong and warrior like and that his decendents will be numerous. Christians to this day suffer persecution my friend. And when I said within a generation most of Samaria and Galilea had a significant following for Christ, they were chased out by the Pharisees (Jewish rabbinical priests.) You can't say the Bible is misinformed of changed. Ive had this discussion with you I believe once. It is against our laws and Jewish laws to change a holy scripture. Both Jews and Christians believe in the exact wording of OT. Muslims however claim it to be biased and edited. I will believe this if you can provide for the world an early copy of the Bible, with references to Mecca, and Muhammed and any other Islamic tradion dating back before Islam. Then I will believe you but so far you expect the world to believe you because YOU say so, without proof or sources. Thats very hard to convince anybody anything. Jesus walked in disguise? What is this? Why would he walk in disguise? He ran away from his own fate? He ran away from his own prediction of death and resurrection? He moved for a short time in hidding? That doesn't sound like the Jesus Christ 2 billion people in the world believe in. Sounds more like a coward running away in shame and fear. Jesus Christ died on that cross. By denying this you are taking away His prophethood. His death and resurrection seals not only his prophethood but the fact that He is Our Lord and Savior, the One true way of life. Your simply making him into a nice guy who said nice things. But ran away when things looked sour for him. He ran away but his followers died for him, while he hid... My uncle was also a nice guy and said nice things but he wasn't a prophet. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 7:27am
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I copy pasted the words of Genesis chapter 16. The word wife is very much there. If you open a few other bibles (KJV etc) you will find it there. Your post is funny. See below: I am still wondering what you mean by unitarian? Abraham believed in the God of the Jews and Christians the single God. You do not understand Unitarian. Then you may not be aware of the Trinitarians too. Abraham did not believe in the God of the Jews and christians. The Jews and christains may have believed in the God of Abraham. There were no Jews or christians at the time of Abraham.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:33am
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Its four walls-so low it is said a young goat can leap over them- Thank you being here my friend. I love people with such beauty of a select-check habit! They provide us good laughs in such days of global tension and blackouts. I appoint them as my Morshed-in-Chiefs, but sadly they just slip out after a few posts. I am six two, I believe that should be something like 185 cm in French or just a wee more, I am not too sure for I haven't checked. I was lucky enough to have been invited to visit the Kaaba. The walls are just twice my height. Are we talking about some small goato-saur that would jump over these walls? Brader'em Minuteman, two hundred and twenty three thanks for saving me the rest of my post. Pobre Anatolians other facts are exactly like the height of this wall!! ------------- Sasha Khanzadeh |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:03pm
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Brother Minutemen: I have a couple of questions to ask on this moronic argument from this knucklehead Xian about Hagar(a) status. I hope you don't mind! Mister Anatolian: You are so juvenile that it is beyond belief. You need to grow up if you expect to have a normal discussion here. Didn't your parent teach you how to behave appropriately with people? If you knew the standing rule for any men of the Abraham family that if they slept with any woman that would automatically be raised to his wife's status and issue would be his progeny. It was left to the man to pick the favorites! And sure they did have favorites! It seems you are totally ignorant of the real facts about the Israelites where Jesus was an end issue of one of the families. What Abraham(a) did same was repeated by his grand son Prophet Jacob(a) and he had 12 sons and a daughter from two wives who happened to be sisters and two of the wives' maids. Do I need to put down the details or you know what I am talking about? Have you ever heard the Israelites of the maids being reminded of who their mothers were  You need be to ashamed of yourself for even bringing the subject up. And what is it with the title of the topic? You have no manner! BTW it is getting fashionable in the west as shown by the celebrities to have children without even getting married and magazines pay millions to just to look  The gays are making babies in most awful ways! so what gives? So far Aslan is concerned he has Masters in Fiction also! He is Persian raised in the US, I won't consider his book for references. It has been a while when I read that and all I can say that he has done some word smithing to make it palatable to the western audiences! Did you read the Aslan's book or just copy & pasted from his website to start this polemics? It is racist Paul's who has made an issue of Hagar(a) descendants.While Paul had no authority to comment on the subject but he did anyway in Galatian 4-21/30 Hagar and Sarah21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These
things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two
covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are
to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now
Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present
city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written: 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29146c" title="See footnote c - c ] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. And he forgot the Israelites were of Egyptians' real slaves down the road but the Ishmaelites were never slaves but turned pagans when he is discussing the subject This has been discussed n debated here in the past and I am sure this won't be the last time either!Finally if you have an honest interest to learn about Kaaba and Hajj and one of the best step by step explanation from a great Persian scholar Dr. Shariati I can give you the link if you like! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 7:38pm
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Thanks. paul who was no apostle at all did much damage to christianity and judaism too. He was a misled man enemy of Jesus. It is a pity that paul wrote such bad things about Hagar with whom Allah was much pleased. She had recieved news/ revelation too. That is written in the bible OT. The slavery of the Israelis in Egypt was a punishment from Allah for them for calling an honorable lady (Hagar) as a slave. The whole lot of them had to become slaves for many years in Egypt because some one called the honorable Egyptian lady as slave girl. Slaves do not have their own name. Hagar was at the most a servant in the house and she served very well and eventualy overtook Sarah and became the beloved wife of Abraham, the master. I knew about the children of Jacob who were from the concubines or maid servants. All the 12 children inherited everything. But in the case of Hagar, these people try to rememebr that she was not entitled and want to dis-inherit her and her children. Why?? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:16pm
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The whole lot of them had to become slaves for many years in Egypt because some one called the honorable Egyptian lady as slave girl. Brother thanks for bringing this interesting piece up about Bibi Hajira. It was a custom, an established social norm, of that day to gift the best possible to our guests. There was nothing sinister or low about gifting a woman to any man, anywhere, in that era of our history. Hajira was the Paharao's sister. Hazrat Ibraheem had taken "horses" to Egypt - these were never seen by the Egyptians before. Not just for this, but also in the overall sense, el Pharao was just simply taken in by Ibraheem. As ze Amrecanos would say; PERIOD! He gifted his sister to Ibraheem. Please don't waste any time on this chap. All his measurements are as dodgy as his story about the Kaaba walls and some pretty little Miss Barbi Goat jumping over these happily as if with some magic!! ------------- Sasha Khanzadeh |
Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:56pm
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Alright I see no point in conversing with you three because it's hopeless
for these main facts. Anything I will quote to you anything I provide from the Bible all the way to a book written by a respected scholar you will denounce. And denounce in what way? Either the scholar is an Iranian who grew up in America or the scholar is biased against muslims. As for the Bible well the Bible 2 billion Christians believe to be truth along with millions of Jews who follow the Old Testament is nul and void because it was edited from "the true text". Which so far no Muslim has ever produced or found an original of the "real" Bible. You all say "Well no but the Qu'ran says so..." Well this is where the problem lies. As a Christian I do not believe in the Qu'ran. This is a fact or else I would be a Muslim, which is not hte case. What's the point of going on and on if everything I give you is rubbish and everything you give me is either sourced out of your own context of whatever YOU believe is true. Nothing you have said is sourced or even sourced correctly. You copy and paste Bible quotes from God knows where and you expect me to buy it? The greatest thing I found entertaining is the fact that you three (minuteman, sign reader, and whisper) is the fact that you believe yourselves to be experts in early civilization's customs and traditions. You form your own beliefs as to what was the norm in those days and what wasn't. To claim that Sarai was a "woman of law and wed Abraham to Hagar, which made Hagar equal to herself" is ridiculous. You form these thoughts so that you won't lessen the glory of the family branch of the Arab race. Your messages send out an almost Hitler-like way of thinking concerning races and genetics. If Aslan's book is filled with anti-Islamic sentiments then there must have been an issue with CAIR and the book would have been removed. But nothing of that has happened. I am forced to read explanations of "Arabs were believing in a single God then they were Unitarian, then they were Pagan, then they were confused, then back to single God." My friends you are the confused ones. As for me I will not waste my time responding your posts (if I can hold myself not to. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:40pm
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He has failed to do a good work. He had gone on wrong track from the beginning. We have given him the right replies to his wrong allegations. Still does not understand and finds the things becoming difficult now. This is a mere discussion forum. As whisper said, I had also known that Hajirah (Hagar) was a princess from Egypt. In any case she was the mother of 12 princes who are named in the bible OT. The children of those princes are spread all over Arabia now. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:34am
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Alright I see no point in conversing with you three because it's hopeless for these main facts. Didn't realise you were speaking from the Oval Office? The worlds sound very familiar. Morshed, forget about these other two, just tell me again about the Kabaah walls. I can only discuss those as I have seen these in PERSON! Plus, I know, Hagar was the pharao's sister + I also know the sheer fact that it was an established custom, in those days, to co-habit with a woman of your fancy and choice - the world seems to have come a full round circle - to accept Common Law wife in our present times. No? If you are here just for fun, then just whisper to me and I will join you in that game as well. ------------- Sasha Khanzadeh |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 March 2008 at 6:53pm
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Hi Anatolian, I don't think you can bet your car or you house on how much trust worthy your bible is , or would you? let alone this book you are talking about. What point you are trying to prove here? we never deny that pagan arabs put idols in the Kaba, Porphet Mohammad destroyed those idols much like Abraham did before as commanded by God. Let us talk about now what is the issie you have form now? As far as Haggar, Bible does say her to be Abraham's wife: ...Hagar .. gave her to her husband to be his wife. Genesis 16:3 Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 12:11am
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These are completely biased persons (anatolians). They see that Hagar was the wife of Abraham. The word wife is there. But still they deny it and want to play her down. But in the case of Jacob, they forget all. There the maids were being used at the behest of the wives. They were producing children and nobody cared about the inheritence of those children of the maids. Why is that?? It is because these people have no sense of judgement or decency. They are racial people and not just type of people. They talk of love but no justice. They have an antipathy towards Hagar and Ishmael. Of course Ishmael did not inherit with Issac. Abraham took Ishmael to a far away barren place in Arabia and settled him there. So both brothers inherited at different places. They inherited materially as well as spiritually. Whereas the Israelis suffered much as slaves and bondmen and bondwomen in Egypt, the Ishmaelis never had to do such bad thing. The temple of Israelis was also destroyed by the babylonians. Then another great reward for the Arabs: At the birth of Jesus, the Israelis were subjugated under the Roman pagan rule. Hazrat Isa a.s. could not do anything for his people and was arrested by the help of the Roman soldiers. The prophet Isa appeared in Palestine but was arrested and punished. No such thing happened to the prophet in Arabia because nobody was interested in occuptying the arrid (barren) Arabia. There was no king nearby to oppose our prophet s.a.w.s. So he had the severe oppostion from the related pagans only, no soldiers. That was a very wise step of hazrat Ibraheem a.s. to settle Hazrat ismaeel a.s in Arabia. Abraham had a very bad experience of the kings ( In native Iraq and egypt) He left his son Ishmael under divine guidance in Arabia where there was no charm. By the time any king could wake up to the situation, the holy prophet and his brave followers were ready to face the criminal kings and defeated the kings of Rome and Iran. Just think of another thing. When the Muslims got up, they had to face the tougher of the two kingdoms i.e. Roman king Kaisar. When Kaisar's forces were routed, the Iranian forces got the message of what was coming. There was no plan to attack any of the kingdom, had they behaved and let the people alone. If they had been spiritually guided and peaceful and not killed the unarmed Muslim preachers in their land then nobody would have attacked them. But they picked the fight thinking that they had a superior better army. That is the history of Peaceful Islam, i.e. what it used to be. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Ramala
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 5:50am
| What is the difference between a concubine and a wife? |