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Anatolian View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:58pm
I had posted a topic which responds to Azalean's post on the pagan roots of
Christmas basically attacking Christians and there faith but when I
responded back to the pagan roots of the Hajj my post was removed.

Truly a one sided argument here isn't it. When you can't respond to
something you completely remove it because it might be "dangerous" to
some to find the truth. History teaches us that truth eventually will always
over power all. That is also written in the Quran numerous times is it not? So
the administrator who removed this post was unislamic and quite unjust.

Great work, hypocrite!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2007 at 11:11pm

I never saw your post actually.

Also, I am curious to know where you get the idea that Hajj has pagan roots.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anatolian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2007 at 11:37pm
I'm worried Big Brother might delete it, but I'll go ahead.

In pre Islamic days, the Arabs of the Peninsula were pagans (that is a fact
for those of you who deny this). Each tribe worshiped an idol. Once a year
all the tribes would gather in Mecca and worship the Kab'aa which housed
each tribes idols. With the rise of Islam, the last stronghold to follow
Muhammed was the Quraeish tribe (Muhammed's clan), which ruled
Mecca, and Mecca's prime source of income, pilgrims. Before the final
comencement of battle, they (the Quraeish and Muhammed), reached an
agreement. The Hajj would remain a practice only this time it would be
free of idols and praises were to be said to Allah. So the Quraeish
accepted this. They would retain the guardianship and economic benefits
of the Hajj and Muhammed won because by the Meccan chiefs acceptance
to Islam's fold he eliminated the remaining pagan stronghold in the Hijaz.

Why was this removed? Every religion has traditions and roots to whatever
the previous faith was. Christians use a ornamented tree at Christmas
time but that stems from the Germanic feast of winter which collides with
the Christian celebrations. It's not a Christian teaching to do so it's
completly secular and Christians know this. They are not ashamed nor
worry from where it stems. It's simply....fun. Muslims also have many
traditions I'm sure that stem back to pagan days. One can never
completly eliminate his past, he simply forges it into the present.
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Anatolian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anatolian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:08am
From Reza Aslan's book "No god but God":

Chapter 1

Arabia. The Sixth Century C.E.

IN THE ARID, desolate basin of Mecca, surrounded on all sides by the bare
mountains of the Arabian desert, stands a small, nondescript sanctuary
that the ancient Arabs refer to as the Kaaba: the Cube. The Kaaba is a
squat, roofless edifice made of unmortared stones and sunk into a valley
of sand. Its four walls-so low it is said a young goat can leap over them-
are swathed in strips of heavy cloth. At its base, two small doors are
chiseled into the gray stone, allowing entry into the inner sanctum. It is
here, inside the cramped interior of the sanctuary, that the gods of pre-
Islamic Arabia reside: Hubal, the Syrian god of the moon; al-Uzza, the
powerful goddess the Egyptians knew as Isis and the Greeks called
Aphrodite; al-Kutba, the Nabataean god of writing and divination; Jesus,
the incarnate god of the Christians, and his holy mother, Mary.

In all, there are said to be three hundred sixty idols housed in and around
the Kaaba, representing every god recognized in the Arabian Peninsula.
During the holy months, when the desert fairs and the great markets
envelop the city of Mecca, pilgrims from all over the Peninsula make their
way to this barren land to visit their tribal deities. They sing songs of
worship and dance in front of the gods; they make sacrifices and pray for
health. Then, in a remarkable ritual-the origins of which are a mystery-
the pilgrims gather as a group and rotate around the Kaaba seven times,
some pausing to kiss each corner of the sanctuary before being captured
and swept away again by the current of bodies.

The pagan Arabs gathered around the Kaaba believe their sanctuary to
have been founded by Adam, the first man. They believe that Adam's
original edifice was destroyed by the Great Flood, then rebuilt by Noah.
They believe that after Noah, the Kaaba was forgotten for centuries until
Abraham rediscovered it while visiting his firstborn son, Ismail, and his
concubine, Hagar, both of whom had been banished to this wilderness at
the behest of Abraham's wife, Sarah. And they believe it was at this very
spot that Abraham nearly sacrificed Ismail before being stopped by the
promise that, like his younger brother, Isaac, Ismail would also sire a
great nation, the descendants of whom now spin over the sandy Meccan
valley like a desert whirlwind.

Of course, these are just stories intended to convey what the Kaaba
means, not where it came from. The truth is that no one knows who built
the Kaaba, or how long it has been here. It is likely that the sanctuary was
not even the original reason for the sanctity of this place. Near the Kaaba
is a well called Zamzam, fed by a bountiful underground spring, which
tradition claims had been placed there to nourish Hagar and Ismail. It
requires no stretch of the imagination to recognize how a spring situated
in the middle of the desert could become a sacred place for the
wandering Bedouin tribes of Arabia. The Kaaba itself may have been
erected many years later, not as some sort of Arab pantheon, but as a
secure place to store the consecrated objects used in the rituals that had
evolved around Zamzam. Indeed, the earliest traditions concerning the
Kaaba claim that inside its walls was a pit, dug into the sand, which
contained "treasures" magically guarded by a snake.

It is also possible that the original sanctuary held some cosmological
significance for the ancient Arabs. Not only were many of the idols in the
Kaaba associated with the planets and stars, but the legend that they
totaled three hundred sixty in number suggests astral connotations. The
seven circumambulations of the Kaaba-called tawaf in Arabic and still the
primary ritual of the annual Hajj pilgrimage-may have been intended to
mimic the motion of the heavenly bodies. It was, after all, a common
belief among ancient peoples that their temples and sanctuaries were
terrestrial replicas of the cosmic mountain from which creation sprang.
The Kaaba, like the Pyramids in Egypt or the Temple in Jerusalem, may
have been constructed as an axis mundi, sometimes called a "navel spot":
a sacred space around which the universe revolves, the link between the
earth and the solid dome of heaven. That would explain why there was
once a nail driven into the floor of the Kaaba that the ancient Arabs
referred to as "the navel of the world." As G. R. Hawting has shown, the
ancient pilgrims would sometimes enter the sanctuary, tear off their
clothes, and place their own navels over the nail, thereby merging with
the cosmos.

Alas, as with so many things about the Kaaba, its origins are mere
speculation. The only thing scholars can say with any certainty is that by
the sixth century C.E., this small sanctuary made of mud and stone had
become the center of religious life in pre-Islamic Arabia: that intriguing
yet ill-defined era of paganism that Muslims refer to as the
Jahiliyyah-"the Time of Ignorance."
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:01pm

 

 The article by Reza Aslan and the post by anatolian is based on wrong ideas, bad information. See specially the last para of the above post. Also Reza calling Hagar a concubine of Abraham is objectionable. It is written in bible OT that Sarah who had lost all hope of bearing any children had herself told Abraham to take Hagar as a wife. Then what is the justification for any one calling Hagar the concubine of Abraham. This can only be the word of some ignorant enemy of Islam.

 The rest of the article or post is meaningless, misinformed and not true. To say that no one knows who built the ka'abah is wrong. At least it is clear from Bible OT and definite from the Quran that Abraham and Ismael built the Ka'abah. Abraham had left his wife Hagar and son Ishmael there in Arabia. Both the religious books support that. Then why to deny it??

 The origins of Makkah and Ka'abah being pagan is no harm at all. But it is wrong on one count. The origin was never pagan. That House was built for the unitarian faith only. Since no prophet had come in the descendents of Ishmael, they were spread all over Arabia, they reverted to paganism. Originally they were not pagans at all.

 Their ancestors were Abraham and Ishmael. They were not pagan. But the later generations became pagan (Mushrik or polytheists). There is no harm. It can happen. Do you see the pagan state of christianity today. It was surely not so during the time of Jesus. So things happen with time and people get misled. The topic is not right. We can say that before the advent of Islam around 600 A.D. the life in Makkah was pagan. That is all.

But to say that the origin of Makkans was pagan is a lie.

Now I may inform the friends about the wisdom of Abraham a.s. He had two sons. The eldest, first one was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Issac was born from first wife Sarah when Abraham was 99 years old. Abraham settled both his sons very far away from each other. Ishmael was settled in the desert mountaneous area of Arabia. Issac was in Palestine.

 There is a long history of the two lines, Israelis and Ishmaelis. The Israelis had to become slaves in Egypt for a long time. They returned or came out of Egypt by the good work of the prophet Moses a.s.  I come to the point...

 Palestine was well inhabited and being ruled by the kings at the time of Jesus a.s. Every one knows that Jesus suffered very much in that home place and was almost unsuccessful in his home area. That was dure to the connivance of the rulers and the religious people. Abraham had much bad experience of the kings and priests from his home area (Iraq) which he had to leave (migrate).

Abraham settled Ishmael in desert area, of no interest to any king. That is where the last prophet Muhammad was born and he (Muhammad) also had much trouble with the local people. But thanks to Allah that there was no king nearby. The prophet became successful and overcame the pagans. That was all due to the master plan of Allah, AlHamdu Lillah.



Edited by minuteman
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Anatolian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anatolian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2007 at 11:23pm
Thank you minuteman for the reply.

By posting Reza Aslan's passage I didn't mean to bring up the Ishmael
and Hagar story it will only diverge this into another topic which won't
coincide with the main issue. I see where you find the problem with the
wording of "concubine" being used for Hagar. An Arab especially would
find that demeaning because of the obvious line of decent from
Abraham's "relationship" with Hagar. She wasn't married to Abraham. She
was a servant to Sarah. By Sarah not giving birth to a child she gave
Abraham Hagar to conceive.

Back to the main issue. Before we go on into further debate I will need
your sources. Where does it say in the OT that Ishmael and Abraham built
the Ka'baa? This is in the Qu'ran not in the Bible. If I am mistaken please
show me. The thing that I found interesting is this. How can Abraham and
Ishmael both rebuild the Ka'baa (according to your traditions Adam built
it first, would that make the Garden of Eden in Mecca or near it?), yet
when Sarah forced Abraham to send away Hagar and Ishmael to the
southern desert, Abraham had made no contact with them. The only time
Ishmael ever saw his father was at his funeral.

The origins of the Arabs was pagan (Wataniyeen in Arabic). Why is that so
shamefull to you? The whole world was pagan at one point except for the
Hebrew tradition of a single God that goes back a few millenia.

What exactly do you mean by unitarian faith? The Hejaz was home to
countless religions. They coexisted quite peacefully to tell you the truth.
There were tribes that consisted of Jews, Christians, Pagans, and even
those that comprised of ancient Egyptian, Roman, and Greek gods and
godesses beliefs. Isis, the Egyptian goddess was quite popular with the
tribes. The Ka'baa once held a statue of Jesus and Mary so it's obvious
that there were Christians among the Arabs.

How can you say Jesus was unseccusfull in his area? Within a generation
most of Galilea and Samaria was converted. But they fled mostly to
Damascus when the Jews began slaughtering the converts. Today's
Christians that live in the Damascus area are decendents of Jews.

Please explain to me why you threw out the whole article as untrue and
based on lies. Reza Aslan is a well respected correspondent to CNN and
has a masters degree in theology. He obviously maintains a high level of
credentials to sell a popular book across the world and continues as a
religious expert in the media. If you discredit him you must have a decent
enough excuse and sources to back your statements up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 12:32am

Originally posted by Anatolian Anatolian wrote:

Thank you minuteman for the reply.

By posting Reza Aslan's passage I didn't mean to bring up the Ishmael
and Hagar story it will only diverge this into another topic which won't
coincide with the main issue.

Then what did you mean??

I see where you find the problem with the
wording of "concubine" being used for Hagar. An Arab especially would find that demeaning because of the obvious line of decent from
Abraham's "relationship" with Hagar. She wasn't married to Abraham.

How do you know that she was not married. What was the mode of marriage in those days?? Do you know it?? It was only necessary to go to a ladylegally and that union of Hagar and Abraham was quite legal.

She was a servant to Sarah. By Sarah not giving birth to a child she gave Abraham Hagar to conceive.  Servants are not to be used for concieving and bringing up a race.

Yes, she gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife to concieve. Not as a concubine. That is a bad blame on you if you are still insisting on using bad words. Please see bible Ot chapter 16, verses 1-5:

 1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."
      Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

 Can you see the word wife there?? Then why did you use the word concubine. That shows your ignorance or bias. Sarah thinks of Hagar as the wife of Abraham. But you think of Hagar as a concubine. Why??

Back to the main issue. Before we go on into further debate I will need
your sources. Where does it say in the OT that Ishmael and Abraham built
the Ka'baa? This is in the Qu'ran not in the Bible. If I am mistaken please
show me. The thing that I found interesting is this. How can Abraham and
Ishmael both rebuild the Ka'baa (according to your traditions Adam built
it first, would that make the Garden of Eden in Mecca or near it?), yet
when Sarah forced Abraham to send away Hagar and Ishmael to the
southern desert, Abraham had made no contact with them. The only time
Ishmael ever saw his father was at his funeral.

 That is also wrong. Abraham took his wife Hagar and first born son Ishmael to Arabia and left them there. Then he kept on visiting them at differnt times. Abraham was not with Sarah when she died. He was with Hagar and Ishmael. When he got the news of the death of Sarah, he went back to her place to mourn her.

 All detail about Ishmael is not in the bible OT. Most of it is in the Quran. Abraham visited Arabia many times as follows:

1. When he was asked to sacrifice his dearest thing in the way of Allah, he was there in Arabia and he presented his beloved first born son Ishmael for sacrifice.

2. He was in Arabia when he with Ishmael built the Ka'abah, the sacred house for the worship of one God only.

3. He visited the area much later after his son Ishmael was married. But came back without meeting his son. That marriage of Ishmael was dissolved on his advice by some coded message to his son.

4. Abraham visited the place again and found that Ishmael had shunned the first wife and remarried. Abraham did not meet his son. But he in a coded message approved that marriage.

5. He was there with the family away from palestine when Sarah died.

You are quite misinformed about many things about Abraham. He was a strict unitarian and so was Ishmael and Issac and Jacob.  Abraham and Ishmael both built the ka'abah. All news about the sacred house at Makkah have been carefully covered up in the bible OT.

The origins of the Arabs was pagan (Wataniyeen in Arabic). Why is that so
shamefull to you? The whole world was pagan at one point except for the
Hebrew tradition of a single God that goes back a few millenia.

Was Abraham a pagan?? That is the question. He is the head of the Arabs. 

You are absolutely wrong about that pagan origin of the Arabs. Arabs are the descendents of Abraham. There were people in Arabia. But the place where Abraham settled his son (now Makkah) was not inhabited by any one. He and Ishmael started the habitation there and that was not pagan. Abraham is the father of all Arabs and he was not pagan. Paganism may have spread there in all Arabia well after the time of Abraham and Ishmael. That is true. But you cannot say that origin of Arabs was pagan. That would mean Abraham, the great father of the Aabs was a pagan. Do you want to say that?

What exactly do you mean by unitarian faith? The Hejaz was home to
countless religions. They coexisted quite peacefully to tell you the truth.
There were tribes that consisted of Jews, Christians, Pagans, and even
those that comprised of ancient Egyptian, Roman, and Greek gods and
godesses beliefs. Isis, the Egyptian goddess was quite popular with the
tribes. The Ka'baa once held a statue of Jesus and Mary so it's obvious
that there were Christians among the Arabs.

You can say that before the advent of the prophet Muhammad, all arabia was pagan. That would be right. But That was a much later time.


How can you say Jesus was unseccusfull in his area? Within a 

generation most of Galilea and Samaria was converted. But they fled mostly to
Damascus when the Jews began slaughtering the converts. Today's
Christians that live in the Damascus area are decendents of Jews.

Please explain to me why you threw out the whole article as untrue and
based on lies.

It is well known that the christians were being punished and suffered for the three hundred years. They remained in hiding. You know it. It is not one generation. Jesus was caught before he could do anything and he was put on the cross. That was the end of Jesus. As a known culprit and  dead man he could not appear in public. He moved for a short time in hiding, in disguise.  So what do you want to know more about the success of Jesus??

Reza Aslan is a well respected correspondent to CNN and
has a masters degree in theology. He obviously maintains a high level of
credentials to sell a popular book across the world and continues as a
religious expert in the media. If you discredit him you must have a decent
enough excuse and sources to back your statements up.

 I do not deny the capability of Aslan. He may be anything, a very highly qualified person. I admire all his qualifications. But we see other books too, i.e. Bible OT, NT and the Quran and Hadith. Aslan's report does not match with those things. Just saying the word "Concubine" when the word "wife" is there in the bible OT shows that it is biased or uninformed about many things. 

 



Edited by minuteman
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Anatolian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anatolian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:12am
Minuteman we are going to have a hard time you and I because in the
first place I just checked my Bible (Saint Joseph Catholic Edition in
English), I also checked my French Bible and the word I see is concubine
in both, not wife. Abraham was not a polygamist. You say wife because
that is more, how should I say "politcally correct". It hits a nerve with the
Arabs being dencendents of a concubine. That is why you change it, I
understand completly. Besides who at the time gave women a law to
marry off people? Not even in Islam are women allowed to perform such
duties as marriage (same as Catholicism, majority of Protestantism, and
Judaism). Which Bible are you using here where you find wife?

Abraham never visited Arabia. The farthest south he had ever gone was
Beersheba just to the north of the Sinai. He also went to Egypt but never
the Hijjaz. I am still wondering what you mean by unitarian? Abraham
believed in the God of the Jews and Christians the single God. I never said
he was pagan. Just because Ishmael was his son, his decendents drifted
to paganism. What is the meaning of unitarian here? It also doesnt say
that Hagar was chased out to Mecca it says that when Hagar was
pregnant, out of jealousy Sarai abused her. Hagar ran off but the Lord
appeared to her and told her to go back to Sarai and basically put up with
it. But he promised her that her son would be born strong and warrior like
and that his decendents will be numerous.

Christians to this day suffer persecution my friend. And when I said within
a generation most of Samaria and Galilea had a significant following for
Christ, they were chased out by the Pharisees (Jewish rabbinical priests.)

You can't say the Bible is misinformed of changed. Ive had this discussion
with you I believe once. It is against our laws and Jewish laws to change a
holy scripture. Both Jews and Christians believe in the exact wording of
OT. Muslims however claim it to be biased and edited. I will believe this if
you can provide for the world an early copy of the Bible, with references
to Mecca, and Muhammed and any other Islamic tradion dating back
before Islam. Then I will believe you but so far you expect the world to
believe you because YOU say so, without proof or sources. Thats very
hard to convince anybody anything.

Jesus walked in disguise? What is this? Why would he walk in disguise? He
ran away from his own fate? He ran away from his own prediction of
death and resurrection? He moved for a short time in hidding? That
doesn't sound like the Jesus Christ 2 billion people in the world believe in.
Sounds more like a coward running away in shame and fear. Jesus Christ
died on that cross. By denying this you are taking away His prophethood.
His death and resurrection seals not only his prophethood but the fact
that He is Our Lord and Savior, the One true way of life. Your simply
making him into a nice guy who said nice things. But ran away when
things looked sour for him. He ran away but his followers died for him,
while he hid... My uncle was also a nice guy and said nice things but he
wasn't a prophet.
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