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Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !! |
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MIAW 
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Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
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 Posted: 30 April 2018 at 6:11am |
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@ airmano and al-masihi, For example: Your link comments on the following verse: (by agreeing with those who said): And they said, "Tales of the previous ones which he wrote down; they were dictated to him morning and evening." Qur'an 25:5 And here is what Ibn Kathir says regarding this verse: ... Because this idea is so foolish and is so patently false, everyone knows that it is not true. It is known through Mutawatir reports and is a common fact that Muhammad the Messenger of Allah never learned to read or write, either at the beginning or the end of his life. He grew up among them for approximately forty years, from the time he was born until the time when his mission began. They knew all about him, and about his honest and sound character and how he would never lie or do anything immoral or bad. They even used to call him Al-Amin (the Trustworthy One) from a young age, until his mission began, because they saw how truthful and honest he was. When Allah honored him with that which He honored him, they declared their enmity towards him and came up with all these accusations which any reasonable person would know he was innocent of. They were not sure what to accuse him of. Sometimes they said that he was a sorcerer, at other times they would say he was a poet, or crazy, or a liar. You two trolls are trying to convince us that Prophet Muhammad PBUH could read and write, implying that he wrote the Qur'an himself (by copying other books). We are not going to even begin to refute this because it's so pathetic. You are trying to 'put out' the light of Islam with feeble arguments. There is nothing that enemies of Islam (such as you two) can use to attack Islamic values.. that has not already been used and refuted before. There are other people who have genuine intentions in asking questions about this great religion that is Islam... and we are happy to help those find the right answers. The Qur'an and Hadith tell us that airmano's and al-masihi's likes have existed since the beginning of time... and they will exist till the end of time as we know it. Their mission in life is to oppose TRUTH wherever it may be. They are fuelled by hatred. They will never accept any answers that you may give them. Muslims do not have to address/answer your questions or refute your claims... because all that has already been done in the past... it's all over the internet. We are very happy with what we believe in and the favors that Allah SWT has Given us through His Prophet Muhammad PBUH... the illiterate prophet and messenger... so keep off! We treat all the prophets and messengers of Allah with love and respect... unlike al-masihi's bible that accuses them of committing drunkenness, rape and even double-incest!... it's not just an insult to the prophets, but to God Himself for making mistakes in Choosing His prophets and messengers. Qur'an [61:8]
[9:32]
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airmano
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Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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Posted: 30 April 2018 at 1:15pm |
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@Miaw
When I read your posts I can't hide the feeling that you are belong to the category of those who say on one side: "Islam is peace" but who in practice run around pouring acid over everybody who doesn't share your opinion. To the point: There is some gray between illiterate and literate, some know how to read and/or write a bit without doing really well in it. So I guess that Muhammad was probably one of these borderline cases. Having said so: Looking at the quality of these writings I'd agree that he was probably more on the illiterate side. Never mind, we all have our weaknesses. BTW: Didn't we agree that throwing Quran citations at non-Muslims is a pointless exercise ? You may as well quote Donald Duck. Airmano
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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ajzhyder
Groupie 
Male Joined: 20 April 2018 Status: Offline Points: 44 |
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Posted: 30 April 2018 at 9:15pm |
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Most of the people who don't believe that Quran is word of God, believe that it must have been written by Mohammad. Obviously, if it were true, the main purpose of Mohammad would be to obtain glory for himself by pretending as Prophet of God. However, we find in reading the Quran, that Mohammad is mentioned far less times in Quran than other messengers e.g Mooses and Jesus. Compared to them, Mohammad is mentioned only a miniscule amount of time. Had Mohammad been the personality type that these people believe him to be and he be after false glory, he would have mentioned himself the most in Quran. Instead we find word Mohammad mentioned only 4 times in Quran and word Ahmed as 1 time.
Another point is that, In all the religious scriptures in existence today which are considered to be from Inspiration of God, by their respective followers, Quran is the only one, in which God himself claims to be the author of it. No other book itself claims to be the word of God. Only the followers claim that it is from inspiration of God. Also, Quran is the only religious scripture which does not have a accepted calibrated version. It is preserved with collective remembrance of the followers. |
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MIAW
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Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
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Posted: 01 May 2018 at 6:40am |
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Airmano, You've got me wrong... just like you're so wrong about Islam. It's nothing personal, it's just that you come across as belonging to the category of those who think (wrongly of course) that freedom (of speech or otherwise) has no limits. therefore you have no hesitation in expressing extremely hostile thoughts and feelings towards Islam's symbols and Muslims in general. You and I know very well your intentions for being in this forum... and it's certainly not 'to learn about the religion of Islam'. Your posts have no regards or consideration for the 2 billion Muslims whose only wish is to practice their religion in peace. This is an Islamic site, we have not come to your Atheist sites (or christian sites) trying to force Islam upon you... it is rather you who has come to us, trying to ram your faithless ideology down our throats in every post. Your extreme hatred for Islam is partly caused by what you see in the media. You blame Islam when Islam is not to blame. I have explained before how we are witnessing a struggle between extremist poles in our world today, and all the good people of this Earth (whether they belong to a religion or not) are the victims (who are being attacked physically, verbally, emotionally...etc and) trying to survive in the middle. Unfortunately your posts sometimes demonstrate that you belong to one of the extremes. Believe it or not... I pity and pray for you.
We know absolutely everything about what Prophet Muhammad PBUH did, said, felt...etc. His entire life was made public and recorded for us in minute detail by his many, many trusted companions... This is so that we can follow his example in everything and as much as humanly possible... and that includes any moments that he spent in private. So do you really think that these companions would 'forget' to report to us the obvious fact of him reading and writing regularly? Hardly...
Now come off it airmano! Do I trust the judgement of hundreds of thousands of scholars who spent their entire lifetimes specialising and studying the Qur'an from every conceivable angle, or do I trust the airmanos of this world who have looked at a couple of verses from... a translation. However if it pleases you to comment on (and judge) the quality of the Quranic text for entertainment's sake (at the expense of others)... then 'fill your boots'.
Now the following bit is slightly hard to understand and 'digest'... Being illiterate would certainly be a weakness in anybody else's case... but in the case of Prophet Muhammad PBUH it was very much a strength... in fact so much so that it was an 'intended miracle'.
We did not and could not have agreed this because... 1) In order to back up any claim, all I have is Qur'an, Hadith and quotes by our scholars, and... 2) As a Muslim, I am not really supposed or encouraged to give my own opinion when I have such sources available to me (as I could easily err). 3) You've come to an 'Islamic' forum, so I'm sure you can expect to find some Qur'an being quoted! (What else is there?). MIAW |
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airmano
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Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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Posted: 01 May 2018 at 2:04pm |
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@Miaw,
Thanks for your more moderate comments this time ... Just to clarify a couple of things: A) Believe it or not: I am not a atheist B) I have nothing against Islam nor against Buddhism nor against Hinduism. But I get frightened by "naive religiosity". The only weapon we have against superstition (and Islam is like many other religions full if it) is: reason. I fully respect Muslims like Nidhal Guessoum, just to pick one. C) You state "This is a Islamforum, so behave" I actually really appreciate that the forum manager lets my point of view stand as it is (besides my repeated posts on the subject "free will" which got all suppressed). This is a clear sign of hope. Now put yourself in my shoes: In western Europe we have between 10 and 15% of immigrated Muslims. If I told them: This is christian country, you are only welcome if you are willing to learn about (and eventually accept) Christianity. Do you think this is a good basis for mutual acceptance ? Bluntly put: Your way of dealing with non-Muslims (views) may serve as a blueprint on how non-Muslim countries may deal with Muslims (views). BTW: You will hardly see any comments from me here outside the "Inter-religious" and "Science" sub-forums. D) The reason why I got interested in Islam is a long story. In a nutshell I stumbled over the "Scientific Quranic miracles" and since I work in science I got attracted by them. When Muslims started to present me the first "miracles" I had the immediate reaction: Kidding me ?! It took me a while to realize that Muslims are really serious about "Iron being sent down", "Mountains as pegs" , "we are expanding the space" and the number "19". If I state that from a scientific point of view these claims are (at best) worthless, you will sure interpret this as "anti-Islam". Again, I am not, but I am anti-nonsense. I have however drawn a lesson from it: When Kim Jong Il died in 2011 the north Koreans came in masses to cry for days in front of his statue. As much as with the "Quranic miracles" I got stunned and my immediate reaction was: "These are all fake tears". In the meantime I revised my stance (too long to explain why) and I am now convinced that (most of) these tears were as real as the Muslim belief in "Quranic miracles". In the end it left me without any illusions on how people - be it Muslims, North Korean "Atheists", Mormons, Nazis in the 3 Reich and probably even myself, can be brainwashed to believe the most blatant nonsense; like Jinns for example. But at least, I try to fight it. The Internet however brings all these people "together". So it may be hard or even unacceptable for you to learn that many people outside your culture look at Muhammad rather as a cracked criminal than anything else (they really do !) - as difficult as it is for me to understand how anybody can take the Quranic miracles even remotely seriously. Last not least: Admitting that I do not hold the ultimate truth may be frustrating and can be interpreted as a sign of weakness, but there is one thing I learned in life: The louder people shout "we have the truth" the less likely it is to be the case. Airmano
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Tim the plumber
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Male Joined: 30 September 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 944 |
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Posted: 01 May 2018 at 10:25pm |
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My green to show to particular bit I am focusing on. This forum is designed and aimed at spreading the religion of Islam. At least in part. It is therefore rioch to say that the rest of the world is not allowed to speak in response to that. Given that you cannot give any evidence outside of the Koran for the divinity of it, just the same as all other religious books, and that this thread is about the evidence for the divinity then you have just said that there is no such evidence that will stand up to scrutiny. |
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AkuDia
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Male Islam Joined: 23 July 2017 Location: Singapura Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Posted: 03 May 2018 at 10:40pm |
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Actually, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is neither a literate nor literate. He was intermittent between illiteracy and literacy. In Isaiah 29:12, these are the Signs of the Last Prophet to the knowledge of the Jews. Isaiah 29:12(KJV), And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read/Recite this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Al Jumu'ah 62.2, It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- When Gabriel conveyed the word of Allah, "Read/Recite!" and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) replied," I can not Read/Recite. Why did Prophet Muhammad SAW replied, "I can not read or recite because Jibrail suddenly told him to read without anything to read or to teach him to recite. For example, if someone comes to tell you to read without written letters or anything else. Surely you are really confused about what he/she wants you to read. Of course, you will answer what you want me to read this blank letter. So Gabriel read Al-Quran Al-Alaq 96.1-5 to him, and then Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could read it. "Recite in the name of your Lord who created - Created man from a clinging substance. Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous -Who taught by the pen Taught man that which he knew not."
To non-Muslims, Prophet Muhammad SAW had never recited and read any holy books/scriptures, not because he could not read or write, as he was referred to as unlettered, it was a Signs from Allah to the Jews at that time. |
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MIAW
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Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
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Posted: 04 May 2018 at 3:47am |
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@airmano, Many interesting points. I'll try to address as many as possible within time constraints.
So do I... I agree. Many of us Muslims don't know our religion well. We are 'naive' about various aspects of Islam.
When the whole world was engrossed in darkness and superstition, Islam came to forbid it and be fervently and totally against it. Qur'an and Hadith are clear about this. Qur'an tells us about previous nations and their superstions: [Qur'an 7:131] (Prophet Moses PBUH and his people):
[Qur'an 27:47] (Prophet Saalih PBUH and his people):
[Qur'an 36:18-19] (About another nation):
However, I agree that some Muslims (out of ignorance for their religion) are still engaged in superstition.
I have no problems with non-Muslim views and practices (Everyone answers for their own beliefs and actions on the Day of Judgement)... However I am against the constant baseless attacks on my religion and my symbols (Allah SWT, Prophets PBUT, Qur'an, Hadith...etc).
Briefly, Let us see what Science says about some of these. IRON: [Qur'an 57:25]
Some early Islamic scholars have interpreted the highlighted bit as: Allah SWT Sent us iron from outer space. Others said: Iron moved down from the surface of the Earth towards its core. Others said other things. Very recent Scientific discoveries have proven that all these interpretations are Scientifically Correct. Now... How would the 'illiterate' prophet PBUH know this? Science goes with Islam 'hand in hand' more than with other religions. There are verses in the Holy Qur'an that keep revealing themselves under new (confirmed) meanings as Scientific advances are made, 'in dribs and drabs'. Sometimes this seems to show that Science is too slow! but I firmly believe that it is the Will of Allah SWT. His Mercy Reserves 'New' chances for the Unbelievers of all times to redeem themselves. MOUNTAINS: UNIVERSE EXPANDING: I'm out of time. But I'll try to address some other points soon. MIAW
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airmano wrote: