Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !!
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Topic: Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !!
Posted By: alisondmurray
Subject: Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !!
Date Posted: 16 April 2018 at 1:31am
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Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god, Islam teaches us that there are aliens in the world and we are not alone, and there is a high possibility there are aliens with high technology that can easily deceive Mohammad and give him this religion with some scientific miracles to make people believe in him what I want is a prove that cannot be from anyone but god not aliens or humans or devils or whatever I want an evidence that can only come from god, I cant build my belief without %100 evidence, I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion. |
Replies:
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 April 2018 at 2:46am
Hi Alison, Please remind me: where does Islam teach us that there are 'Aliens' in the world? I just want to make sure that I understand your question properly: So... let me get this right... According to your question: Some 'Alien' might have come from 'somewhere' in the year 610 AD... he chose a man who cannot read or write... he gave him the Qur'an (over 23 years)... he told him to worship a Third entity (namely: Allah SWT)... and then disappeared. In a way: It is actually (somewhat) correct!  - The 'Alien' is an angel (Jibreel AS Gabriel) - This angel is only a messenger who was sent by... Allah SWT - The Qur'an contains 'scietific miracles' because Allah SWT is All-Knowing, which means that He Knows about all scientific advances and inventions throughout the history of our world till the end of time. - if the 'Alien' wanted to deceive Prophet Muhammad, he would have instructed him to worship the alien himself. (i.e. what would be the 'alien's' point otherwise?) - This 'Alien' brought the same message many, many times before. He is the same 'Alien' who came to all prophets PBUT. It is his job/task. - The last message (i.e. Islam) is the only one that remained in its pure, unchanged-by-men form.
Islam is the correct religion, sent to us by the only correct God Worthy of worship. We are not doing Him a favour by worshiping Him. He does not 'NEED' us to worship Him, He is Doing us a favour by 'Allowing us' to worship Him. And we are so grateful to Him for Showing us the correct path and way. |
alisondmurray wrote:Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 April 2018 at 12:19pm
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I think Muhummad could read and write as he successfully ran Kadijah's businesses. The term "unlettered" in English means lacking formal advanced education. It is not the same as illiterate. Anyone not a college graduate is considered unlettered. I may be mistaken, and welcome correction. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 18 April 2018 at 1:34am
Greetings David, I happen to know many people who are successful in business, but can hardly spell their name. Similarly, I know some people from my childhood school days who did not have the slightest interest in education and learning, and yet, they are very successful businessmen today. To link 'business success' to 'academic achievement' is naive and incorrect. And let us face it... in order to [come up with/invent/author/write] a whole text of the caliber of the Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad PBUH needed to be a post-graduate of the 'Harvard' of his time! (and then some...). In fact Allah SWT challenges (in the Qur'an) all the distinguished scholars of that era (or any era) (many of whom were Jewish scholars...etc) to come up with something similar... and they couldn't. Opponents of Islam always try to convince us that Prophet Muhammad PBUH could read and write, in order to try and lead some people to think that he invented the Qur'an himself... well... consider these two points: 1) Throughout history, you read and hear about people who cannot read or write, pretending to be academics and knowledgeable, in order to have a higher social standing and be accepted among the 'elite'... but you never hear of the opposite... i.e. why would anyone go through years of blood, sweat and hardship of learning and academic achievement... only to then pretend that he cannot even write or read his own name... and be able to keep up this 'comedy of pretensions' day and night for 63 years! (without faltering or making a mistake once!). 2) If prophet Muhammad PBUH was 'pretending' illiteracy, then we would have learnt this from the people who knew him very well from childhood (especially his opponents of the time... who would never have let something like this slip or go unnoticed or unchallenged!)... in fact no one, friend or foe, doubted his illiteracy... it's only in recent times that opponents of Islam 'lowered' the 'challenge level' to rock bottom.
I think you have too much of a case of 'Lost in Translation' Different translations use different terms, that is why it is always safer to take things from the 'origin'. I can tell you that the term 'Ummi' in Arabic means 'someone who cannot read or write'. Period. Examples of various translations: Chapter (7) sūrat l-aʿrāf (The Heights) http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=7&verse=157#%287:157:1%29" rel="nofollow"> Sahih International: Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. Pickthall: Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. Yusuf Ali: "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." Shakir: Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful. Muhammad Sarwar: There are those who follow the Messengers, the illiterate Prophet (not conventionally educated), whose description they find written in the Torah and the Gospel. [He (the Messengers) enjoins them to do good and forbids them to do all that is unlawful, makes lawful for them all that is pure and unlawful all that is filthy, removes their burdens and the entanglements in which they are involved]. Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the light which is sent down to him, will have everlasting happiness. Mohsin Khan: Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16), - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Quran) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful. Arberry: those who follow the Messenger, 'the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- they are the prosperers.' The Unlettered ProphetQuestion: Is there any evidence that the Prophet Muhammad was unable to read or write? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. David, Allah SWT Chose Muhammad PBUH to be Illiterate for a good purpose. Can you see that purpose? MIAW |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 18 April 2018 at 3:46am
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Thank you very much. That clears things up for me. As for speculation on God's purpose, and as this is the interfaith forum, in the bible God almost always selects the most unlikely as his tools so that success may only be attributed to God and not to the messenger. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 19 April 2018 at 2:00am
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Based on my research, in the whole Quran, the word Ummi is used to refer to one who don't
have or yet to be given the Books/ knowledge by Allah. It did not mean
unable to read & write. And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. (Quran 2 78) (transliteration –ommiyyoona) So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves. ( Quran 3 20) (transliteration –walommiyyeena) He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; (Quran 62 2) (transliteration-ommiyyeena) Among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is he who, if entrusted with a Cantar (a great amount of wealth, etc.), will readily pay it back; and among them there is he who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stand demanding, because they say: "There is no blame on us to betray and take the properties of the illiterates (Arabs)." But they tell a lie against Allah while they know it. (Quran 3 75) (transliteration- al-ommiyyeena) Also the Sahih al-Bukhari confirms prophet Muhammad can read & write. Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, ""It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114) |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 19 April 2018 at 10:41am
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Hello Alison and blessings... It is not for me or anyone else in this world to tell people what to believe as regards religions or God or the Qu-Ran etc... Each and every one of us must reach inside to know what is right or wrong,, True of false,, And yes,, A lot of us make the wrong choices as we go through life and hopefully learn from them... I have also not committed myself to any religion as I have the same doubts in my heart as to the origins of the scriptures,,, And more so ,,, Why would there be more than one religion if we only had one god? The fact that we have multiple religions tells me that someone is not being ,, Should i say,, Honest? Throughout the world in recent times we are seeing a growing community that are now asking the question. Is The earth flat? Why is this??? 500 years ago the human race knew the world was flat and today they know the world is a ball.. What is the truth of the matter? What I do know in my heart is that a lie always comes to the surface given enough time and it does indicate given the facts and through personal observation that there is a possibility that our human experience is taking place upon a flat plane . But I still have not subscribed to that model,, Or the Ball earth. But one of them has to be correct to a certain degree right? Well maybe,,, There is an ommision made by most by not considering that we could operate within an energy field only where our five senses of perception are served by this field, And solidity is no more than energy perception coming to our consciousness.. A Quantum existence if you like.. Let's hypothesize that the earth is flat as our ancestors believed,,, This would indicate that we do have a creator as it lies under a firmament dome below the great sea.. The stars are within the firmament and rotate around us as opposed to the earth aimlessly hurtling through a void of space. If this construct were to be true,, Only a superior being could make this,, A creator. This makes us his creation and have a purpose to our lives.. The ball earth makes us think that perhaps we are a cosmic accident as the big bang theorists would have us believe.. From the biblical scriptures you will find that Satan got very jealous of Adam when God proclaimed that Adam was of both body and spirit. Satan reacted to his own jealousy and said to god.. " I will make Adam and All of his children worship me before the time has ended" Now we see the world in turmoil and stress as a result of Satan's efforts to undermine us... I have no belief in any religion or particular God but I do know that we have a creator of whom trusts us not to fall victim to the devil and his tactics. My message to you is to trust nothing and no one without consent from your heart . God is pure love,, Religions cause suffering... ------------- Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 19 April 2018 at 1:36pm
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There are however Muslims who http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/new_information/muhammad_%28P1259%29.html" rel="nofollow - claim that he could read Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 20 April 2018 at 12:33am
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What science is in the Koran that was not the general understanding of educated people back then? |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 20 April 2018 at 12:52am
You're welcome. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 20 April 2018 at 4:19am
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The Arabic word �£مي has many meanings and doesn't necessarily mean illiterate. Many Hadiths also state Mohammed wrote: Narrated Anas bin Malik: Once the Prophet (ﷺ) wrote (كَتَبَ) a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet (ﷺ) was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet (ﷺ) got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet. Sahih Bukhari 1:3:65 Narrated Abu Humaid As-Saidi: We accompanied the Prophet (ﷺ) in the Ghazwa of Tabuk and the king of 'Aila presented a white mule and a cloak as a gift to the Prophet. And the Prophet (ﷺ) wrote (وَكَتَبَ) to him a peace treaty allowing him to keep authority over his country. Sahih Bukhari 4:53:387 |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 20 April 2018 at 4:29am
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There are two versions of the story of the first revelation. In the Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq it goes as follows: When it was the night on which God honored him with his mission and showed mercy on His servants thereby, Gabriel brought him the command of God. "He came to me," said the apostle of God, "while I was asleep, with a coverlet of brocade whereon was some writing, and said, ‘Read!’ I said, ‘What shall I read?’ (وما اقر�£ [10]) He pressed me with it so tightly that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said, ‘Read!’ I said, ‘What shall I read?’ He pressed me with it again so that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said ‘Read!’ I said, ‘What shall I read?’ He pressed me with it the third time so that I thought it was death and said ‘Read!’ I said, ‘What then shall I read?’—and this I said only to deliver myself from him, lest he should do the same to me again. He said: ‘Read in the name of thy Lord who created, Who created man of blood coagulated. Read! Thy Lord is the most beneficent, Who taught by the pen, Taught that which they knew not unto men.’ So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq [11] It says وما اقر�£ "and what (should I) read?". So in this story Muhammad can read, he just asks what should he read. Ibn Ishaq died in 761. But in 810 was born Bukhari, who wrote a little different story in his Sahih Bukhari collection: He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food likewise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read. (مَا �£َنَا بِقَارِئٍ)" The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Sahih Bukhari 1:1:3 If the iqra in 96:1 meant "recite" as some translators translated it, then here Muhammad says "I don't know how to recite". This shift from "and what shall I read" (وما اقر�£) to "I don't know how to read" (مَا �£َنَا بِقَارِئٍ) seems to indicate that Muhammad's illiteracy was a later invention. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 29 April 2018 at 4:23am
The group in your link are called 'Hadith rejectors'. They go by many other names, such as: Quran alone Quranists Submitters They claim to be muslims, and yet they believe that there is nothing that Prophet Muhammad PBUH said in his lifetime worth recording. They claim to pray, fast...etc differently from other Muslims. They are favorites among atheists (such as yourself), because their opinions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH fit in approximately with what you believe. Thanks for highlighting them for us. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 29 April 2018 at 9:02am
Instead of attacking what they are, why don't you stay factual and address what they claim ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 29 April 2018 at 11:13pm
| They are rejected by mainstream muslims such as yourself because they reject all the violent and disturbing Hadiths of Mohammed. But yes your right Islam cannot work without narrations to back it up which seriously ruins its credibility. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 30 April 2018 at 5:34am
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Shia do not strictly follow Hadith, and I would not minimize them by dismissively classifying them as " Hadith rejectors". ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 30 April 2018 at 6:11am
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@ airmano and al-masihi, For example: Your link comments on the following verse: (by agreeing with those who said): And they said, "Tales of the previous ones which he wrote down; they were dictated to him morning and evening." Qur'an 25:5 And here is what Ibn Kathir says regarding this verse: ... Because this idea is so foolish and is so patently false, everyone knows that it is not true. It is known through Mutawatir reports and is a common fact that Muhammad the Messenger of Allah never learned to read or write, either at the beginning or the end of his life. He grew up among them for approximately forty years, from the time he was born until the time when his mission began. They knew all about him, and about his honest and sound character and how he would never lie or do anything immoral or bad. They even used to call him Al-Amin (the Trustworthy One) from a young age, until his mission began, because they saw how truthful and honest he was. When Allah honored him with that which He honored him, they declared their enmity towards him and came up with all these accusations which any reasonable person would know he was innocent of. They were not sure what to accuse him of. Sometimes they said that he was a sorcerer, at other times they would say he was a poet, or crazy, or a liar. You two trolls are trying to convince us that Prophet Muhammad PBUH could read and write, implying that he wrote the Qur'an himself (by copying other books). We are not going to even begin to refute this because it's so pathetic. You are trying to 'put out' the light of Islam with feeble arguments. There is nothing that enemies of Islam (such as you two) can use to attack Islamic values.. that has not already been used and refuted before. There are other people who have genuine intentions in asking questions about this great religion that is Islam... and we are happy to help those find the right answers. The Qur'an and Hadith tell us that airmano's and al-masihi's likes have existed since the beginning of time... and they will exist till the end of time as we know it. Their mission in life is to oppose TRUTH wherever it may be. They are fuelled by hatred. They will never accept any answers that you may give them. Muslims do not have to address/answer your questions or refute your claims... because all that has already been done in the past... it's all over the internet. We are very happy with what we believe in and the favors that Allah SWT has Given us through His Prophet Muhammad PBUH... the illiterate prophet and messenger... so keep off! We treat all the prophets and messengers of Allah with love and respect... unlike al-masihi's bible that accuses them of committing drunkenness, rape and even double-incest!... it's not just an insult to the prophets, but to God Himself for making mistakes in Choosing His prophets and messengers. Qur'an [61:8]
[9:32]
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 April 2018 at 1:15pm
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@Miaw When I read your posts I can't hide the feeling that you are belong to the category of those who say on one side: "Islam is peace" but who in practice run around pouring acid over everybody who doesn't share your opinion. To the point: There is some gray between illiterate and literate, some know how to read and/or write a bit without doing really well in it. So I guess that Muhammad was probably one of these borderline cases. Having said so: Looking at the quality of these writings I'd agree that he was probably more on the illiterate side. Never mind, we all have our weaknesses. BTW: Didn't we agree that throwing Quran citations at non-Muslims is a pointless exercise ? You may as well quote Donald Duck. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: ajzhyder
Date Posted: 30 April 2018 at 9:15pm
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Most of the people who don't believe that Quran is word of God, believe that it must have been written by Mohammad. Obviously, if it were true, the main purpose of Mohammad would be to obtain glory for himself by pretending as Prophet of God. However, we find in reading the Quran, that Mohammad is mentioned far less times in Quran than other messengers e.g Mooses and Jesus. Compared to them, Mohammad is mentioned only a miniscule amount of time. Had Mohammad been the personality type that these people believe him to be and he be after false glory, he would have mentioned himself the most in Quran. Instead we find word Mohammad mentioned only 4 times in Quran and word Ahmed as 1 time. Another point is that, In all the religious scriptures in existence today which are considered to be from Inspiration of God, by their respective followers, Quran is the only one, in which God himself claims to be the author of it. No other book itself claims to be the word of God. Only the followers claim that it is from inspiration of God. Also, Quran is the only religious scripture which does not have a accepted calibrated version. It is preserved with collective remembrance of the followers. https://wordpress.com/view/topicsfromquran.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - https://wordpress.com/view/topicsfromquran.wordpress.com |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 01 May 2018 at 6:40am
Airmano, You've got me wrong... just like you're so wrong about Islam. It's nothing personal, it's just that you come across as belonging to the category of those who think (wrongly of course) that freedom (of speech or otherwise) has no limits. therefore you have no hesitation in expressing extremely hostile thoughts and feelings towards Islam's symbols and Muslims in general. You and I know very well your intentions for being in this forum... and it's certainly not 'to learn about the religion of Islam'. Your posts have no regards or consideration for the 2 billion Muslims whose only wish is to practice their religion in peace. This is an Islamic site, we have not come to your Atheist sites (or christian sites) trying to force Islam upon you... it is rather you who has come to us, trying to ram your faithless ideology down our throats in every post. Your extreme hatred for Islam is partly caused by what you see in the media. You blame Islam when Islam is not to blame. I have explained before how we are witnessing a struggle between extremist poles in our world today, and all the good people of this Earth (whether they belong to a religion or not) are the victims (who are being attacked physically, verbally, emotionally...etc and) trying to survive in the middle. Unfortunately your posts sometimes demonstrate that you belong to one of the extremes. Believe it or not... I pity and pray for you.
We know absolutely everything about what Prophet Muhammad PBUH did, said, felt...etc. His entire life was made public and recorded for us in minute detail by his many, many trusted companions... This is so that we can follow his example in everything and as much as humanly possible... and that includes any moments that he spent in private. So do you really think that these companions would 'forget' to report to us the obvious fact of him reading and writing regularly? Hardly...
Now come off it airmano! Do I trust the judgement of hundreds of thousands of scholars who spent their entire lifetimes specialising and studying the Qur'an from every conceivable angle, or do I trust the airmanos of this world who have looked at a couple of verses from... a translation. However if it pleases you to comment on (and judge) the quality of the Quranic text for entertainment's sake (at the expense of others)... then 'fill your boots'.
Now the following bit is slightly hard to understand and 'digest'... Being illiterate would certainly be a weakness in anybody else's case... but in the case of Prophet Muhammad PBUH it was very much a strength... in fact so much so that it was an 'intended miracle'.
We did not and could not have agreed this because... 1) In order to back up any claim, all I have is Qur'an, Hadith and quotes by our scholars, and... 2) As a Muslim, I am not really supposed or encouraged to give my own opinion when I have such sources available to me (as I could easily err). 3) You've come to an 'Islamic' forum, so I'm sure you can expect to find some Qur'an being quoted! (What else is there?). MIAW |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 May 2018 at 2:04pm
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@Miaw, Thanks for your more moderate comments this time ... Just to clarify a couple of things: A) Believe it or not: I am not a atheist B) I have nothing against Islam nor against Buddhism nor against Hinduism. But I get frightened by "naive religiosity". The only weapon we have against superstition (and Islam is like many other religions full if it) is: reason. I fully respect Muslims like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidhal_Guessoum" rel="nofollow - Nidhal Guessoum , just to pick one. C) You state "This is a Islamforum, so behave" I actually really appreciate that the forum manager lets my point of view stand as it is (besides my repeated posts on the subject "free will" which got all suppressed). This is a clear sign of hope. Now put yourself in my shoes: In western Europe we have between 10 and 15% of immigrated Muslims. If I told them: This is christian country, you are only welcome if you are willing to learn about (and eventually accept) Christianity. Do you think this is a good basis for mutual acceptance ? Bluntly put: Your way of dealing with non-Muslims (views) may serve as a blueprint on how non-Muslim countries may deal with Muslims (views). BTW: You will hardly see any comments from me here outside the "Inter-religious" and "Science" sub-forums. D) The reason why I got interested in Islam is a long story. In a nutshell I stumbled over the "Scientific Quranic miracles" and since I work in science I got attracted by them. When Muslims started to present me the first "miracles" I had the immediate reaction: Kidding me ?! It took me a while to realize that Muslims are really serious about "Iron being sent down", "Mountains as pegs" , "we are expanding the space" and the number "19". If I state that from a scientific point of view these claims are (at best) worthless, you will sure interpret this as "anti-Islam". Again, I am not, but I am anti-nonsense. I have however drawn a lesson from it: When Kim Jong Il died in 2011 the north Koreans came in masses to cry for days in front of his statue. As much as with the "Quranic miracles" I got stunned and my immediate reaction was: "These are all fake tears". In the meantime I revised my stance (too long to explain why) and I am now convinced that (most of) these tears were as real as the Muslim belief in "Quranic miracles". In the end it left me without any illusions on how people - be it Muslims, North Korean "Atheists", Mormons, Nazis in the 3 Reich and probably even myself, can be brainwashed to believe the most blatant nonsense; like Jinns for example. But at least, I try to fight it. The Internet however brings all these people "together". So it may be hard or even unacceptable for you to learn that many people outside your culture look at Muhammad rather as a cracked criminal than anything else (they really do !) - as difficult as it is for me to understand how anybody can take the Quranic miracles even remotely seriously. Last not least: Admitting that I do not hold the ultimate truth may be frustrating and can be interpreted as a sign of weakness, but there is one thing I learned in life: The louder people shout "we have the truth" the less likely it is to be the case. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 01 May 2018 at 10:25pm
My green to show to particular bit I am focusing on. This forum is designed and aimed at spreading the religion of Islam. At least in part. It is therefore rioch to say that the rest of the world is not allowed to speak in response to that. Given that you cannot give any evidence outside of the Koran for the divinity of it, just the same as all other religious books, and that this thread is about the evidence for the divinity then you have just said that there is no such evidence that will stand up to scrutiny. |
Posted By: AkuDia
Date Posted: 03 May 2018 at 10:40pm
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Actually, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is neither a literate nor literate. He was intermittent between illiteracy and literacy. In Isaiah 29:12, these are the Signs of the Last Prophet to the knowledge of the Jews. Isaiah 29:12(KJV), And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read/Recite this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Al Jumu'ah 62.2, It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- When Gabriel conveyed the word of Allah, "Read/Recite!" and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) replied," I can not Read/Recite. Why did Prophet Muhammad SAW replied, "I can not read or recite because Jibrail suddenly told him to read without anything to read or to teach him to recite. For example, if someone comes to tell you to read without written letters or anything else. Surely you are really confused about what he/she wants you to read. Of course, you will answer what you want me to read this blank letter. So Gabriel read Al-Quran Al-Alaq 96.1-5 to him, and then Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could read it. "Recite in the name of your Lord who created - Created man from a clinging substance. Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous -Who taught by the pen Taught man that which he knew not."
To non-Muslims, Prophet Muhammad SAW had never recited and read any holy books/scriptures, not because he could not read or write, as he was referred to as unlettered, it was a Signs from Allah to the Jews at that time. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 04 May 2018 at 3:47am
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@airmano, Many interesting points. I'll try to address as many as possible within time constraints.
So do I... I agree. Many of us Muslims don't know our religion well. We are 'naive' about various aspects of Islam.
When the whole world was engrossed in darkness and superstition, Islam came to forbid it and be fervently and totally against it. Qur'an and Hadith are clear about this. Qur'an tells us about previous nations and their superstions: [Qur'an 7:131] (Prophet Moses PBUH and his people):
[Qur'an 27:47] (Prophet Saalih PBUH and his people):
[Qur'an 36:18-19] (About another nation):
However, I agree that some Muslims (out of ignorance for their religion) are still engaged in superstition.
I have no problems with non-Muslim views and practices (Everyone answers for their own beliefs and actions on the Day of Judgement)... However I am against the constant baseless attacks on my religion and my symbols (Allah SWT, Prophets PBUT, Qur'an, Hadith...etc).
Briefly, Let us see what Science says about some of these. IRON: [Qur'an 57:25]
Some early Islamic scholars have interpreted the highlighted bit as: Allah SWT Sent us iron from outer space. Others said: Iron moved down from the surface of the Earth towards its core. Others said other things. Very recent Scientific discoveries have proven that all these interpretations are Scientifically Correct. http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_materials" rel="nofollow - http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_materials Also: http://https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Quran_and_the_Descent_of_Iron" rel="nofollow - http://https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Quran_and_the_Descent_of_Iron Now... How would the 'illiterate' prophet PBUH know this? Science goes with Islam 'hand in hand' more than with other religions. There are verses in the Holy Qur'an that keep revealing themselves under new (confirmed) meanings as Scientific advances are made, 'in dribs and drabs'. Sometimes this seems to show that Science is too slow! but I firmly believe that it is the Will of Allah SWT. His Mercy Reserves 'New' chances for the Unbelievers of all times to redeem themselves. MOUNTAINS: Mountains: http://https://www.quranandscience.com/quran-science/earth/126-the-mountains-as-stabilizers-for-the-earth" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.quranandscience.com/quran-science/earth/126-the-mountains-as-stabilizers-for-the-earth UNIVERSE EXPANDING: http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/scientific-explanations-quran-expansion-universe.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/scientific-explanations-quran-expansion-universe.aspx I'm out of time. But I'll try to address some other points soon. MIAW
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Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 04 May 2018 at 7:43am
“O Children of Israel, call to mind My [Allah’s] favor which I bestowed on you….and believe in what I have revealed, verifying [theTorah] which is with you. Be not the first to deny [the Qur’an], neither take a mean price in exchange for My scriptures. [Don’t sell Bible stories to Muhammad—give them to him.] Do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know it.” [Qur’an 2:40]
Tabari I:188 “Jews came to the Prophet and asked him about the creation of the heavens and the earth. [Allah didn’t bother to explain our beginnings in his Qur’an so Muhammad felt obliged to help him out.] He said, ‘Allah created the earth on Sunday and Monday. He created the mountains and the uses they possess on Tuesday. On Wednesday He created trees, water, cities and the cultivated and barren land. On Thursday,He created heaven. On Friday, He created stars, the sun, moon, and angels, until three hours remained. In the first of these three hours, He created the terms, who would live and who would die. In the second, He cast harm upon everything that is useful for mankind. And in the third, Adam, and had him dwell in Paradise.’ Qur’an 51:56 Allah shares, “I have created jinn [demons] and
men only to worship Me. I do not want anything from them.” Tabari I:189 “The Messenger took me by the hand and said,
‘Allah created soil on Saturday. Upon it, He created the mountains on Sunday.
He created the trees on Wednesday, scattered animals on Thursday, and made Adam
as the last of His creatures after the afternoon prayer on Friday.’” Tabari I:189 “The Jews asked the Prophet, ‘What about Sunday?’ The Messenger answered, ‘On it, Allah created the earth and spread it out.’ They asked about Monday, and he replied: ‘On it He created Adam.’” So much for the afternoon prayer. “Then they asked about Saturday and mentioned God’s resting on it. Then the Prophet got very angry so Allah then revealed to him: ‘We have created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six days and fatigue did not touch Us.’” This became Qur’an 50:38.
Tabari I:198 “I heard
Muhammad say: ‘The first thing created by Allah was the Pen. And Allah said to
it: “Write!” It proceeded at that very hour to write whatever is going to be.’”
Tabari I:206 “When Allah wanted to create the heavens and earth, He grabbed a fistful of small rocks in the water. He then opened his fist with the rocks and they rose in the form of smoke. Then Allah fashioned the seven heavens and extended the earth in two days. He finished the creation on the seventh day. He created the Footstool after the Pen and then the Throne. Thereafter He created the air and darkness. He then created the water and placed His Throne upon it. …He was in a cloud with no air underneath or above it. Thus the Messenger reported.”So that explains it. It makes perfect sense. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 04 May 2018 at 2:13pm
You appear to believe only in what you can see. Muslims believe in the 'unseen'. That's why Allah SWT Praises them in the Qur'an, for example [2:3]. However what is really nonsense is that you also believe (rightly but ironically) in the presence of gravitons and Gravity force (e.g. between all objects in the Universe) without seeing it... and yet you don't believe in God, Angels, Jinns... as you cannot see them. Strange. The Qur'an describes this 'condition' (of not acknowledging the Truth) as blindness in: [13:19] and [17:72] and [20:124]. Remember: the key thing is: Belief in God (Allah SWT). Everything else follows automatically.
You would never see a good Muslim 'lower' themselves so much as to describe the symbols of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism...etc by such insulting terms.
And I have learnt this fact: 'Truth' is clear, and 'Falsehood' is clear also... Neither Shouting it nor keeping quiet about it will change this fact. The only thing that is likely to change is YOU (i.e. you either open your eyes or keep them closed ). |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 04 May 2018 at 2:37pm
Haven't you realized that you are doing the same ? I see you constantly going nuts about Christians drinking alcohol and "not respecting the bible". You probably just discovered that they are not Muslims - and don't intend to become so. The shear word "Atheist" seems to be a swear word to you. The real problem is that with modern means of communication you have all of a sudden views clashing which before have been separated by distance and culture. When you look at the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Christian_views_on_Muhammad" rel="nofollow - Christian view of Muhammad you'll find the note on the Italian Basilica depicting Mohamed tortured in Hell (Your brothers in faith tried to blow it up in 2002 and 2006). For centuries this painting went unnoticed and it is only now that it became visible to the Muslim world just because we now have the means of exchanging information from one side of the planet to the other in less than a second. That your religion forbids to depict Jesus in the same negative light is simply put "bad luck". Again I know it is hard for your to understand why people here want to have (and preserve) the right to depict Mohamed, the pope, Kim Jong Un, Theresa May and even Jesus in an "unfavourable light". The reasons are in part historic but also -at least from a western perspective- throughout explainable. As much as you "love your prophet" most of the people here look at him as a crook - and some simply express what they think. You once wrote "leave us (with our religion) alone" which means "let me live my convictions". What gives you the right to forbid us our way of life (which explicitly includes the right to "criticize" your prophet ? ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Science and Quran: Can I ask you to answer two questions: A) Did you ever hold (and try to understand) a physics book -written by a renowned scientist - in your hands ? If yes, could you try to tell me which book/author it was and summarize in a few lines what you understood ? B) Would you know of any, actually only one(!) revolutionary new scientific concept which was discovered on the basis of ["scientific" statements in] the Quran ? If you answer: Please respect the chronology of events. Thanks: Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tobias
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 4:08am
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Could someone find the text from the Qur'an relating to aliens being among us on earth please, And post it here as I am somewhat bewildered as to what is actually meant by the word alien, and if that word is indeed used at all within the Qur'an Thank you... ------------- Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 4:45am
Anybody can drink whatever they fancy... I have no problem with that. I do think however that drinking too much alcohol can lead to health and social problems. The word 'Atheist' is not a swear word. It describes someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a deity.
We don't hate followers of other religions. This is just the usual attempt by 'Atheists' to set religions against each other, with a view to see them fight each other. Allah SWT Addresses 'people of the book' very politely in the Qur'an (even though He Did Not Have To. i.e. instead, He Could Have Destroyed them instantly for not following his prophet). Here are some examples: [3:64] Say, "O People of the Book, come to terms common between us and you: that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate nothing with Him, and that none of us takes others as lords besides Allah." And if they turn away, say, "Bear witness that we have submitted." [3:65] O People of the Book! Why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Will you not reason? [3:70] O People of the Book! Why do you reject the revelations of Allah, even as you witness? [3:71] O People of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with falsehood, and knowingly conceal the truth? [3:98] Say, "O People of the Scripture, why do you reject the Revelations of Allah, when Allah witnesses what you do?" [3:99] Say, "O People of the Scripture, why do you hinder from Allah's path those who believe, seeking to distort it, even though you are witnesses? Allah is not unaware of what you do." [4:171] O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of Allah, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say, "Three." Refrain—it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and Allah is a sufficient Protector. [5:15] O People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, clarifying for you much of what you kept hidden of the Book, and overlooking much. A light from Allah has come to you, and a clear Book. [5:19] O People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making things clear to you—after a cessation of messengers—so that you cannot say, "No preacher has come to us, and no warner." In fact, a preacher has come to you, and a warner; and Allah is Capable of everything. [5:59] Say, "O People of the Scripture! Do you resent us only because we believe in Allah, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed previously; and most of you are sinners?"
Hypocrisy... Double standards... There are heads of royal families (queen, King, Emperor), Pope...etc that you would not get away with depicting them in certain ways. Again, unfortunately this is the work of those who lack God in their lives, and therefore lack 'shame'.
Rather 'risky and naive' of you... However, I'd rather not be 'dragged away' to new 'pastures'.
Unfair and misleading question. No one is claiming that Scientific discoveries are made on the basis of the Qur'an... Rather: Recent Scientific discoveries keep confirming and explaining the Qur'an in new lights. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 6:49am
| First of all Al Amin was a common Arab given title or name, infact it still is. Al Amin is a possibility he was named after his mother Aminah since it corresponds to it. I’m perfectly capable of debating you or any Muslims claims on the Bible not to mention prophets aren’t supposed to be eternal role models that title goes to jesus himself not to the prophets they were just meant to safeguard the community of their times, woe to you who claims to follow the prophets yet write them off as followers of a pagan god. Ibn Kathir didn’t come into play until the 1300s way after Mohammed early sources such as Bukhari, Muslim, and Ibn Ishaq all say he could read and write. You only have the report of Mutawatir, I have all major Hadiths to back up the claim he could both read and write. I’m not trying to degrade Islamic values, even if I wanted to I don’t know which argument I should choose, considering their numbers. What Islamic answers in my years living with Muslims and discussing with them, they don’t provide answers, they white wash and use self-refuting apologetics not facts on their own religion. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 6:54am
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I’ve seen many “good Muslims” do that, why don’t you go read the works of Deedat or Naik and see all the derogatory material used to describe Christianity, Judaism, Hindusim, and other religions. Have you read or swatched the stuff Ahmed Deedat said about Jews, I dare you to read this Islamic facist article on Jews and Israel: https://islamqa.info/en/1098" rel="nofollow - https://islamqa.info/en/1098 |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 6:58am
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Surah Al Fatiha 1:7: The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray. Those who have evoked your anger are the Jews and those who went astray are the Christians, this is read at every salat, so your either misinformed or actually deceiving people when you say Muslims don’t hate people of other faiths. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 7:01am
| If new scientific discoveries keep confirming the Quran how come muslims never used the information in the Quran to discover all these things before modern scientists, instead of misinterpreting Quran verses to fit with scientific discoveries despite no tafsirs of these Quran verses to back up such claims. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 2:21pm
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@ajzhyder
If you use http://corpus.quran.com/" rel="nofollow - Corpus Quran and look for the keyword "messenger" you find 239 [entries] for messenger (in 0.006 seconds). Some entries do indeed not refer to Muhammad but I guess the majority does. Even worse: If you look for "we" (where Mohammad puts himself linguistically on the same level as God) you find 2116 entries (in 0.009 seconds). Again, I did not go through them "we by we" but if only half of them refer to Muhamad (and Allah) than it becomes clear that you hold the book of a perfect nacissic in your hands. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 2:36pm
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@Miaw -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you see the difference between a measurable entity and a fantasy ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understood already that you are morally superior. BTW: You seem to have no problems with the thought that I should roast eternally in hell for not believing in Allah. Compared to these torture(r)s [and their silent apple-polishers] I am the nicest chap on earth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean like the Banu Qurayza ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong, just google and you'll find some examples. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I think I can safely conclude that the answer is no. So what makes you feel competent to comment on subjects you don't seem to understand ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what you write I think that even you [have to] admit -albeit grudgingly- that the information content of the "relevant sentences" in the Quran is such that they do not hold any predictive power [whatsoever]. This means what it means. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 11:13pm
| I’m not saying Mohammed copied the Quran from other works he might not have even existed, since no documents report his existence nor document his life except from Islamic sources. The argument that Mohammed (assuming he existed) couldn’t read or write therefore couldn’t have copied from other texts seems to be a really pathetic attempt to deflect evidence that Mohammed plagiarized Jewish, Christian, and Zoroastrian texts into the Quran which is pretty obvious to anyone who read the Quran and understand it. There’s much proof mohammed wrote and read, also if he was infact a trader how could he not be literate traders back then had to be literate since they had to record transactions and record all things they bought. Not to mention early Islamic sources show that the concept of mohammed being illiterate was a later invention meant to give more credibility to the Quran, which practically has no leg to stand on except this argument and its Arabic language argument. Even if let’s say Mohammed existed and couldn’t read or write, I don’t believe Mohammed was deaf, whose to say he couldn’t have had the various texts of other religions read to him, then memorize the words, before asking his scribes to copy the words down. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 07 May 2018 at 12:31pm
1, I, as an atheist, don't ever want to set any religion against another. I very often compair them, and ask you to explain why yours is different to the others that we both agree have it wrong. But, I do this to show you that your faith is not a reasonable thing to use as a cause of war or anything close to that. The more atheists are setting all religions against us atheists then the more you lot will see each other as on the same side. Already I have christians telling me that all faiths are valid. This is of course bonkers. There are clearly bonkers faiths out there. 2, The quotes you used, do set out to push your religion onto the other people of the book. That is confrontational. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 08 May 2018 at 12:19pm
You've hit the nail on the head with this question. Not everything in life is 'measurable'... and things that are not measurable are not all 'fantasy'. in fact most of them are real. Without being philosophical, and not wanting to go down this route, I'll say this: The most interesting things in life are the ones you cannot measure, like Belief, Love, Hate, human character, thinking, poverty, happiness, loneliness...etc... unless I am currently addressing a robot! Indeed this is what some of us are in danger of becoming in our day and age (in our 'modern society'): Pseudo Robots who can only cope and deal with what they can see, touch and measure. This is why they cannot cope with the concept of God in their lives.
Allah SWT Decides who ends up where on the Day of Judgement... I can talk about 'beliefs' and 'actions'... but I am not allowed to 'decide' about 'particular' people. As for... 'nicest chap on earth': I never doubted it for a minute!
So you can understand Physics... and that has led you to reject God... Hmmm |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 1:17pm
The things above are measurable. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 1:43pm
You are wrong Airmano... I would really like to see you dwell in Paradise for eternity... You see: this is the difference between 'us' and 'you'... You think "rot in Hell" and we think "May Allah Guide you to Paradise". We are all trying to save ourselves from Allah's 'Hellfire'... and hopefully earn Allah's 'Paradise'... and a good step to start with is to acknowledge the 'HOST'.
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 2:00pm
No I don't. I do simply not see why a merciful God should create something brutal like [a] hell. You can not escape this logic: The Quran is full of announcements on how disbelievers will be treated ( to me it even seems the central theme). So if you accept the Quran as being Gods word you also accept that Allah is utterly cruel. It doesn't help to say: "But you can escape by submitting to him". To me this is the logic dictators like to use. Being a Muslim you ultimately accept this/his logic and become a follower; no even a supporter [of eternal(!) torture]. Of course, you can still say "he does as he pleases" but you can not (seriously) call him "merciful" anymore. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 2:00pm
Greetings Tim, Yes I agree that it is confrontational, but these are not our words... they are the words of Allah SWT who Created the People of the Book. He Is Their Lord and Creator, So He Is Addressing them. We have nothing to do with this. Allah SWT Created the People of the Book, He Sent them Prophets with Books, so they killed the prophets and corrupted the books... then He sent them a final prophet and what did they do?... They chose to disbelieve and oppose His Prophet... in other words: THEY CHOSE TO BE CONFRONTATIONAL against Allah (God). Therefore it is between Him and them... and they certainly will have to 'answer' for this soon when meet Allah on the Day of Judgement. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 2:14pm
| The concept of corrupted books is extremely illogical and is one of the main reasons I left Islam, you’d probably say Allah made it as a test for the people of the scripture, but that’s like me giving a five year old a test for 11th graders despite knowing he’ll fail only to blame him for it later. You might say that the people of the book corrupted the scripture, but doesn’t all things that come to pass only happen by Allah’s influence, how can people of the book find the truth of Allah willingly influences and allows people to further mislead them and hide the truth from the people of the scripture, so is Allah allowing the devil human beings to ruin the message of the people of the scripture then simultaneously blame them for it? So we come to the following conclusions or questions if you will, did Allah have no knowledge of the unseen therefore not know of the outcome of his own test with Jews, Christians, and Muslims fighting with each other in a whole disaster, was he not powerful enough to protect the books, or was he willingly deceiving the people of the scripture and allowing them to be mislead without guidance despite previously having offered it. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 2:22pm
For once you have just said something that is actually correct... unlike the usual rubbish that you throw on here... HOWEVER: Allah SWT Created the Jews and Christians Did He not?? therefore He Has every right to Describe them Has He not?? In this verse He is Showing us how not to follow the path and ways of those that have erred before us. You are using this verse to attack Islam and Muslims as usual, but in effect the verse tells us something about you not us! As usual you stand refuted. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 10 May 2018 at 2:42pm
| If you mention this daily while supposedly praying to “god” then that really makes your religion pretty hateful. Allah willlingly allowed the Jews and Christians to be led astray then blames them for it? |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 12:48am
| Allah in ch 51 v 47 of Quran says universe is ever expanding 1400 years ago Edwin Hubble discovered this fact in late 1800's who could have said such an advanced thing long time ago certainly it was Allah because prophet Muhammad Saw Pbuh was illiterate yet he received the greatest degree of being a mercy to mankind from Allah till the end of this world,he taught us how to worship Allah,and he said never miss namaz and take care of others,his main message was worship only Allah. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:07pm
@Miaw
Pardon me !? Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:12pm
Wrong again! We mention this in every unit of every prayer. It makes us more and more determined not to follow your likes. We don't necessarily have to 'hate' anyone... we are just grateful to Allah SWT for Giving us clear examples of those who erred before us... so that we do not make the same mistakes. This is indeed shows that Allah SWT is very JUST! In fact, I'll give you a piece of information for free: Allah SWT has Given us so many warnings in His Books and through His Prophets that no one can 'deny' Allah's Justice unless they are an absolutely blind and stubborn 'disbeliever'. Indeed Allah's Justice is so Perfect that everyone who enters Hellfire enters it fully convinced that they 'deserve it'. i.e. no one enters Hellfire 'protesting' their innocence (like you see here in this life).
Allah SWT (God) Gave everyone the same Warnings and Messages. And He Gave us all brains, minds and reason to distinguish us from animals and other living things... but also to allow us to distinguish between Truth and Falsehood (right and wrong), and to be able to 'heed' His warnings and messages. Those who choose not to heed His warnings will have no excuse when they stand to answer before Him... or you might say: "they will not have a leg to stand on". According to your 'twisted' logic above, Allah SWT should have made everyone believers... However: What would then be the point of Creating Paradise, Hell, Prophets, Rewards, Punishment...etc. You see... You have never made 'sense'... and never will. Qur'an [10:99]
Qur'an [13:19]
As for those like yourself who don't just stop at 'disbelieving'... they actually dedicate their whole lifetime opposing and insulting Allah and those who believe... well... I shall be telling you soon about them! |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:42pm
Exactly the same 'twisted' and 'blind' logic as previous post... therefore a similar answer: It is like saying: Why does Allah allow killing, raping, theft, murder, corruption, crime...etc Answer: Allah does not make people do these things. Some people are twisted and greedy criminals, but others are not. The people who chose to corrupt the Message and religion of their Lord (and mistreat and even kill some messengers) did it by their own will (for worldly gains). Allah did not Make them do it... How do we know this? Because Allah (God) Was there Watching them, and it is He Who informed us about them. Here is an example: Qur'an [5:70]
Again: According to your 'twisted' logic: Allah should not allow all these crimes and corruption to happen... but then... What would then be the point of Creating Paradise, Hell, Prophets, Rewards, Punishment...etc. Your 'logic' is so... 'illogical'. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:50pm
| That’s way different then saying God willingly allowed people to corrupt his religion while he stood and watched, now that’s illogical. God allows things to happen to test people however his truth should be incorruptible and infallible if your saying that he is allowing people to change his message while he sits and watches then that means your god is just as deceptive as the people who corrupted the books, he makes false promises to the people of the book only to allow people to mislead them even though he said they had the truth with them. What an illogical and confusing concept, Ibn Hazm himself had to use rationalism and philosophy to get this concept straight. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:52pm
Are they?? Please enlighten me, because I must have missed the 'latest discoveries'... Example: Force is measured using the 'newtonmeter'. its unit of measurement is the 'newton'. What 'instrument' and 'unit' do you use to measure: Belief Love Hate human character thinking poverty happiness sadness loneliness compassion ... ... etc ?? (and please spare me some useless research that you have read in the 'tabloids') |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 2:30am
So Allah creates hell to fill it with disbelievers which he also makes himself ? I guess you're right, this whole construct is entire nonsense. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 6:07am
This is a start; http://www.jstor.org/stable/2984811?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" rel="nofollow - http://www.jstor.org/stable/2984811?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents It is a very accademic paper on how beliefs are measured by psychologists. The strength of them etc. You will not get such precise or defined results from such measurements but it is done all the time. And just because a result is quoted to 6 significant figures does not make it correct. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 6:13am
Your argument is that the the Koran is confrontational so it OK for you to be the same. The Bible is just as confrontational so you should have no issue with christians doing the same. So is the communist manifesto. My asking you difficult questions makes you realise that you have lots in common with the other religions. If that stops the Sunni/Shia violence it is a start. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 6:15am
Can you say exactly what the Koran says about the universe expanding and does it say the world is flat or a sphere? |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 2:20pm
So now you are likening Jewish and Christian priests and clergy to a five year old immature child who did not know what he was doing (when they changed and corrupted the previous books of Allah)... in other words: the old 'trick' of 'Diminished responsibility' that we see criminals use in courts... in order to 'evade justice'. Well... I have news for you: Those who changed the word of Allah SWT and corrupted Allah's religion knew exactly what they were doing: Qur'an: [3:71] O People of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with falsehood, and knowingly conceal the truth? [3:99] Say, "O People of the Scripture, why do you hinder from Allah's path those who believe, seeking to distort it, even though you are witnesses? Allah is not unaware of what you do." To change the religion (and word) of Allah SWT is big crime. In fact I personally believe that it is the biggest crime (or if you want: the biggest con) in the history of mankind (or the history of creation itself)... and unfortunately, the people who perpetrated this crime, as well as anybody who supports and follows them, will stand to answer for this in front of the Lord Creator SWT. Qur'an [2:79-80]
Qur'an [3:78]
|
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 2:49pm
@Miaw
Frankly Miaw, when it comes to the "bible being corrupted" you are the funniest chap alive. Citing the Quran .... in support of the Quran. Chapeau ! Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 3:04pm
What?... is it as illogical as (according to you of course) God standing and watching His own son being 'crucified' in a humiliating way... even though His son was crying: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthiew [27:46])
What?... is it as illogical and confusing as saying: "Jesus was a God and Human at the same time". Jesus PBUH was only a 'human' messenger of Allah SWT. Allah SWT made this truth (fact) clear to them... but they chose to 'delude' from it: Qur'an [5:75]
Allah SWT (God) also Warns them (politely) about saying "Three" (i.e. the illogical and confusing concept of 'Trinity') Qur'an [4:171]: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of Allah, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say, "Three." Refrain—it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and Allah is a sufficient Protector. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 May 2018 at 3:26pm
|
Miaw: Jesus was not in despair on the cross but singing a song of praise. He was singing Psalm 22. Please read the entire song. http://al-injil.net/psalm-22/" rel="nofollow - http://al-injil.net/psalm-22/ ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 13 May 2018 at 12:07am
| But Allah knew that the people of the book were going to change the books, but he did nothing and knew that outcome so then you admit your god was a deceiver? Actually your god is using the old trick of diminished justice by pinning it on the people 9f the scripture when he let them, aided them, and gave them all means to commit the crime and did not stop them. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 13 May 2018 at 12:11am
| You do know Jesus was quoting Psalms right? Also Allah seems to mistake the trinity for tritheism which means the worship of three gods that concept is called a triad it’s very different form the trinity, no trinitarian believes in three gods. What’s confusing about God being able to take the nature of a human in addition to his divine nature at the same time, he’s God, what’s confusing is when you say God deceived people into corrupting the books. So again I will ask you, was Allah deceiving the people of the scripture, was he unable to protect the scriptures from corruption, or did he have no knowledge of the unseen? |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 13 May 2018 at 1:32am
| Interesting that Muslims accuse the Bible as corrupted when Uthman burnt all original copies of the Quran due to their variances and unreliability (not just phonetic either) and the oldest Quran in existence (Sanaa) does not line up with the modern Quran ! |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 13 May 2018 at 2:37am
David: The passage in your link talks about 'my cries of anguish' (3rd line) Now if you look in any good dictionary (or Thesaurus), this is what you will find: anguish ˈaŋɡwɪʃ/ noun
verb
Note: May I point out that I do not believe in 'Crucifixion', because the Qur'an tells me that Prophet Jesus PBUH was not crucified. Qur'an [4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. However: This is not our subject for now... |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 12:59am
|
Lets look carefully at what this verse is saying, the Jews proud fully exclaimed “indeed we have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary.” This however makes no sense that the Jews are referring to Jesus as the Messiah whom they had disbelieved in according to the Quran so this basically tells me that the Jews disbelieved in Jesus and his message as their Messiah yet a while later the Quran says that the Jews exclaimed and said we have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, so did the Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah or not, I’m confused? One might say Jews were saying it sarcastically, but Jews even sarcastically never joke about the Messiah who is practically the center of Judaism and was the hope of the Jews for centuries, even uttering the title Messiah in Judaism has to be done with great respect and careful word choices according to the Orthodox Jews. From this information we can no doubt determine the Islamic account of the crucifixtion was a fabricated event, Jesus indeed was crucified according to all of Jerusalem who personally witnessed his death, including his own mother Mary and the Apostles, to say that God made someone else die in the place of Jesus to deceive the Apostles and the mother of Jesus, Mary who is called a chaste and pure women in the Quran, like how the Quran says Allah made it seem to them as Jesus had died, this would make God look like a complete liar and would be incredible and utter blasphemy to suggest that God would deceive or mislead his own followers like that, historians also report a man who claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God was crucified in Jerusalem, some refer to him as the Nazarene, some reffered to him as the Christ in their work, let’s look at what Roman historian Tactius has to say: All human efforts . . . of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus , and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 2:53am
|
So many ways to read this. They killed him not may mean they ' Pharisees' did not kill but Romans killed Jesus. Or, they used a substitute who was killed and Jesus escaped. I have heard Muslims on this board who held there positions in the past. Some think Jesus was actually crucified but not killed. Unlikely as that was a capital offense for Roman soldiers. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 5:55am
| I myself believe the Islamic version on the account of the crucifixtion to be a fabrication. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 3:04pm
Ok, Fine. If that's what you believe then so be it. But I think your spelling of the word is wrong!... From now on, Try: Cruci fiction. (it should make it slightly more plausible).
|
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 16 May 2018 at 1:53am
| Sorry Crucifiction isn’t in the English dictionary, but I’ll be sure to use it when describing the Quranic version of the story. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 16 May 2018 at 4:18am
I would give it a probability close to 100% that it is a fabrication. Essentially all historians agree that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus" rel="nofollow - Jesus was indeed crucified . The reason why Muhammad "changed" this part is also all too obvious: Crucifiction and resurrection is the keystone of the Christian belief. How could he have have sold his own religion (convincingly) without discrediting this centerpiece ? Needless to say that he didn't (rather "couldn't") bring forward the slightest proof for his "theory" Where Muslims got a valid point however is the fact that God did not stop Mohamed from corrupting the bible. Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 16 May 2018 at 2:55pm
Normally the poor wretch on the cross would rot off. Unless they needed the cross for the next victim. |
Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:32am
| Not to mention the major error it has when it says the Jews exclaimed they have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary. But the Quran says the Jews disbelieved in Jesus as a prophet and the Messiah, after all that’s why they were killing him according to the Quran. Muslims will say this was a notion of mockery and quote from their tafsirs, but actually Jews even as a way of mocking never use the term Messiah. Especially using the term for a man that they are putting on trial for claiming to be the Messiah. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 4:48am
|
@airmano, This has been discussed so many times before; the
internet is full of it. First: Let’s get one thing out of the way... No Muslim should feel obliged to give any
evidence (to a non-Muslim) about anything to do with Islam... that is because enough
evidence was given by our Prophet Muhammad PBUH to people who were in a much
better position (than anyone living today) to scrutinize that evidence (either
because they were Non-Muslim scholars at that time, or were 'living/confirming
witnesses' to what our Prophet was preaching/claiming at the time. And because
the evidence that our prophet presented was so strong and compelling, Islam
spread like 'wild fire' within only a few years, reaching Africa, Europe and
Asia. Reason: Because the Light of Truth that everyone was
'longing for' had finally arrived to replace the Darkness of Falsehood that
had prevailed all over the world at the time. However... If I do have to support any claim, then I, as a Muslim, only have
three sources available to me: 1) Divine words from previous scriptures. I will not use these because, unfortunately, they have been
changed and corrupted by humans. Period. We believe in the same (one) God, but (parts
of) the message are now different. The same God does not send two conflicting
messages. When you manufacture a machine or computer, you do not write two
conflicting User’s Guides (Manuals), you include just one. 2) My own logical thinking and analysis, as well as the opinions and logical rhetoric of philosophers, certain authors and apologists, thinkers, Ahlul-Kalaam (People of Talk Talk Talk, i.e. Hot Air). I will not use these because... Well… we’ve seen where ‘unguided’ human perception of the concept of God, Creation,etc has led us in the past. We simply have to accept that there are concepts that we cannot perceive or even imagine… such as …God. In fact it is so difficult to encompass that some people have had to satisfy themselves by drawing a ‘picture’ of God (usually a Huge old man with long white beard and hair), others gave him an additional ‘human dimension’ like Christians and Jews, and others have even given up on the idea altogether (Atheists…etc). Some concepts have to be guided and ‘channeled’, otherwise they will wander and err all over the place… rather like pouring water onto a field and expecting it to all go towards the tree at the other end of the field. 3) Divine words from The Qur’an. (and Sunnah) That’s what I believe in, and that’s
the only source I shall use to support any claim. So please try to get used to it. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 5:09am
This is such a weak argument! God Knows about every 'crime' before it happens (or even be planned) ... so you want Him to stop every crime, murder, corruption, bullying, tyranny, wrongdoing, rape, abuse, hostility, war, destruction, theft, robbery, cheating, forgery...etc...etc. Wouldn't it be a nice place to live in!! (if all these crimes were stopped and prevented... i.e if they were inexistant). Ah but... wait a second... This place DOES EXIST!! We call it Paradise. The only thing is... to be in it... EACH ONE OF US HAS TO EARN IT. (That's the whole idea!  ) |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 7:33am
Like a long line for the barber's chair?  Per Mark 15:42-47, a rich man bribed Pilate for Jesus' body and Pilate was surprised Jesus had died so soon. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 10:09pm
Yes. As the Quran describes it; Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)
For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31) Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. (Qur'an 22:23)
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15)Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24) In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56) And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33) (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23) And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger),- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19) |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 11:25pm
Telling the rest of us that your, Islamic, arguments are simply better than any others just because they come from Islam is not going to impress anybody. You are on the internet. Not in some sort of Islamic school where any challenge to Islam is punished. You have the same expectations on you as the rest of us where supporting your arguments are concearned. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 1:53pm
Sure, you are indeed not obliged. But it brings you in the same position as those who are convinced to be Napoleon. Asking them "can you prove it ?" usually results in "Why should I ? I know I'm Napoleon !" Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 5:49am
@Tim, I don't have 'arguments'. I just have a faith that I am happy with... and would like the chance to 'practice it' peacefully and without negative interference all the time. At the end of the day... I really... really believe that I (along with everyone else who has ever walked this Earth) will (at some point) be brought to account in a way that is so 'detailed' that it is impossible to imagine with our weak human minds... and I am only trying to 'save' myself from the unimaginable punishment that ensues... and it 'will' happen, otherwise what exactly is the point of this very 'short' life of ours?... |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 10:45am
OK, enjoy. But you are not here, on the internet, quietly practicing your faith. You are here spreading the message of Islam. You have every right to do this. But don't expect to go unchallenged.
|
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 1:07pm
Good point. I agree. I don't mind being challenged... It's the way that it's done (by some people)! Being challenged and opposed is an honor... it's the trait of Prophets and Messengers of Allah (Peace and Blessings upon them all), i.e. the examples that we mean to follow. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 8:34pm
|
In the Quranic paradise, God is promising full breasted
virgins, pearly young boys, fruit, honey, milk, wine, clean water, gold
bracelet, fine Persian silk (istabraq), mansion, couch, chicken meat, ginger
ale & fine weather. (Note: Istabraq is a luxury cloth of ancient time
from Iran, its like God promising me a branded cloth e.g Gucci today) Any opinion?
|
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 24 May 2018 at 6:11am
Reference? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 24 May 2018 at 6:13am
|
Yandex: reference? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:43pm
|
Allah hath
promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell
therein, and beautiful mansions in
gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of
Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)
For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: Istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31) Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. (Qur'an 22:23)
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15) Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24) In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56) And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33) (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23) And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger),- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19) |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 25 May 2018 at 5:36am
|
So this is a parable and not to be taken literally. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 May 2018 at 11:27pm
@DavidC
What makes you think so ? Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 27 May 2018 at 6:16am
It is plainly stated in the text: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15) It all appears to be the same pericope, but I am sure an Islamic scholar can provide an authoritative answer. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 27 May 2018 at 7:29pm
Ya sure, the parable turkey etc. Seems to me like an enticement to the 7th century desert Bedoins by tempting them with wealth, wine & wo(men) to believe in Allah. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 28 May 2018 at 7:17am
It appears to be both parable and poetry. The Bible, Qu'ran, Rumi - all are replete with poetry and parables. This the way humans understand truths which are ineffable in direct language. They are a more exalted form of expression. I have no reason to believe Bedoins were/are unable to appreciate poetry and parable. In fact, the teaching stories of the Sufi and the parables of Jesus (who taught only in parables) makes me think rigid prose is not the optimal method for transmitting spiritual truths. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 May 2018 at 12:52pm
Correct but this is only the case for one of the examples Yandex posted and even in 47:15 the http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=15" rel="nofollow - translations differ about the word "parable". Furthermore, in the world of the extremists these verses (and their literal meaning) is an important if not essential facette to their motivation. Be that as it may: Why should I take these verses as parables but not the verses about the 'scientific miracles' ? Airmano
------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 29 May 2018 at 9:28am
|
I don't know Arabic. In Hebrew there are literary structures which point out poetic language and other genre, but here the translation plainly identifies the pericope as a parable. We need an Arabic scholar to help with this question. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Lunarious
Date Posted: 29 May 2018 at 1:30pm
|
Quran chapter 2: And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." The first verse, Allah is challenging you by your Honor. If you fail, you must submit. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, i laugh at those who ... you know. I'm young retired, because i've accepted the challenge, and mentally impaired after action. I needed assistance from my parents additionaly, not anyone can do this, but do it and you're redeemed. The second verse is talking i think about artificial intelligence. Where does it talk about Aliens in the Quran, just curious. |
Posted By: yandex
Date Posted: 29 May 2018 at 10:03pm
I guess the clarity of each translation is proportional to the honesty of the translator. For example verse 55:56 by Khan ; Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon
their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their
hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. |
Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 30 May 2018 at 7:08pm
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David & Airmano, Please enlighten us (out of curiosity): If Muslims (according to you) should not take these descriptions (of paradise) 'literally'... then how should they understand them exactly? Chapter (47) sūrat muḥammad http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=47&verse=15#%2847:15:1%29" rel="nofollow"> Sahih International: Is the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord, like [that of] those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines? Pickthall: A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels? Yusuf Ali: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? Shakir: A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder. Muhammad Sarwar: The garden, which is promised to the pious, is like one in which there are streams of unpolluted water, streams of milk of unchangeable taste, streams of delicious wine, and streams of crystal clear honey. Therein they will have all kinds of fruits and forgiveness from their Lord. On the other hand (can these people be considered like), those who will live forever in hell fire and will drink boiling water which will rip their intestines to bits? Mohsin Khan: The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels? Arberry: This is the similitude of Paradise which the godfearing have been promised: therein are rivers of water unstaling, rivers of milk unchanging in flavour, and rivers of wine -- a delight to the drinkers, rivers, too, of honey purified; and therein for them is every fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord -- Are they as he who dwells forever in the Fire, such as are given to drink boiling water, that tears their bowels asunder? My question is: What do you understand from the highlighted/colored bits above? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 30 May 2018 at 8:38pm
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Yandex: The text directly states this is a parable. People do tend to not read carefully or without attempting a prayerful understanding, but this is obvious. I do not know anyone in this forum who would deliberately leave out the allegorical nature of that verse to decieve, but as Shakespeare wrote, "The devil can quote Scripture to serve his purpose." Miaw: My reading of those phrases, based on biblical similarities, but is that 'rivers' means without limit. It also implies life and time. Not being in the river implies being outside of time and watching it pass. Water' refers to purity. 'Milk' and 'Honey' refer to life everlasting, as these are the foods which are obtained without loss of life. Wine refers to a spiritual elevation. Alcohol being prohibited in Islam, the allegorical nature of the pericope is a natural inference. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: asep garut
Date Posted: 26 July 2018 at 8:59pm
Hi Alisondmurray, there are several ways to determine whether a religion can be considered true and can build trust, among others: 1. See the contents of all the religious books that exist today (as a comparison), do not look at the adherents because it may be that our way of thinking will be affected by one's attitude. 2. You will be able to determine approximately which of the books approach the truth by looking from the original language of the book-bearer's time, the order of its editorials, and most importantly looking at its content whether God or Angel speaks or only words from people. 3. Look at His Words whether there are many contradictions or not. (without any revisions). 4. See the development of such the book, whether more and more studied and also its adherents. 5. Whether all its contents can answer all the behavior of human life or not? etc.
Hopefully you will find a religion that can build your trust without coercion and pressure except you can freely decide yourself to Whom you should worship. You are right that all need proofs, so don't let your efforts in this world become vain to face your eternal life in hereafter. |
Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 27 July 2018 at 5:12am
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Hallo, I don't doubt that every single word in Quran comes from God. On the other hand the truth about God is infinite and our brain is the capacity to grasp it. So as more as our brain evolves the more we're able to grasp. But the first conclusion is the realization of god, i.e. that would be just the beginning of what's supposed to be Noah and in reality didn't yet happen. I wrote more which is "pending approval", so I feel tired repeating myself, but my personal approach is that of the "blind men and an elephant" parable ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant ) whereas the elephant is in 3D (space) AND 4D (time), i.e. everyday we can learn something new and "maybe" the combination of new findings and old wisdoms leads us to the final realization.
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Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 27 July 2018 at 6:10am
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"The great flood" is also in the name "ARCHeology" because it started as searching for the ARCH of Noah which never has been found, but many other things. ;-) Here is the Christian view along with others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative#Christianity" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative#Christianity And I see^^ that we "humans" are still in the "Adam, Kain, Abel, Seth" archetypal mode, whereas Seth and his descendants (fictional Noah, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed etc.) is the source of truth (Holy Spirit). But the final realization comes in the "son of man" which means "where the word became flesh" which means "where god has been rightly understood" and where the Almighty himself confirmed that fact by a "miraculous" apocalyptic act.
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Posted By: SoulGenesis
Date Posted: 27 July 2018 at 9:56am
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"...searching for the ARCH of Noah which never has been found, but many other things." So one could conclude that the ARCH is in the knowing^^ of the specifics. In each fairy tale there is some wisdom and message but the proof of facts (God) is a bit more complex. That's "my preaching" i.e. that soul is true consciousness and mind is self-responsibility in judgment of right or wrong. But mostly people like to believe what fits their interests. In case of western elites they believe in constructivism of anything and by that also in pseudo-science if it produces income. In the end everything is submitted to money and non-transparent business models. The mother of all non-transparent business models is the "Whore of Babylon". ;-)
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Posted By: Lunarious
Date Posted: 08 August 2018 at 8:55pm
| Hi, i think we believe the holy spirit to be Gabriel, long time... But the Prophets are not Gabriel. Allah exists. One way to pary we have is to say Allahu haqqen haqqa, meaning Allah is tru-ly truth. If you focus on the first, he is real, and as last *as your brain will see) is truth. I havent seen that yet. |