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Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !!
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Points: 2474 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2018 at 7:17am
Originally posted by yandex yandex wrote:

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:


It all appears to be the same pericope, but I am sure an Islamic scholar can provide an authoritative answer.


Ya sure, the parable turkey etc.

Seems to me like an enticement to the 7th century desert Bedoins by tempting them with wealth, wine & wo(men) to believe in Allah.









It appears to be both parable and poetry. The Bible, Qu'ran, Rumi - all are replete with poetry and parables. This the way humans understand truths which are ineffable in direct language. They are a more exalted form of expression.

I have no reason to believe Bedoins were/are unable to appreciate poetry and parable. In fact, the teaching stories of the Sufi and the parables of Jesus (who taught only in parables) makes me think rigid prose is not the optimal method for transmitting spiritual truths.
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airmano View Drop Down
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DavidC: So this is a parable and not to be taken literally.

Airmano: What makes you think so ?

DavidC: It is plainly stated in the text:  ...(Qur'an 47:15)
Correct but this is only the case for one of the examples Yandex posted and even in 47:15 the translations differ about the word "parable".
Furthermore, in the world of the extremists these verses (and their literal meaning)  is an important if not essential facette to their motivation.

Be that as it may: Why should I take these verses as parables but not the verses about the 'scientific miracles' ?


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Points: 2474 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 9:28am
I don't know Arabic. In Hebrew there are literary structures which point out poetic language and other genre, but here the translation plainly identifies the pericope as a parable.

We need an Arabic scholar to help with this question.
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Quran chapter 2:

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful.
But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."

The first verse, Allah is challenging you by your Honor. If you fail, you must submit. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, i laugh at those who ... you know. I'm young retired, because i've accepted the challenge, and mentally impaired after action. I needed assistance from my parents additionaly, not anyone can do this, but do it and you're redeemed.

The second verse is talking i think about artificial intelligence. Where does it talk about Aliens in the Quran, just curious.
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Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Be that as it may: Why should I take these verses as parables but not the verses about the 'scientific miracles' ?

Airmano


Thats right Airmano, its a parable when its embarrassing but it becomes literal when its suits.

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

I don't know Arabic. In Hebrew there are literary structures which point out poetic language and other genre, but here the translation plainly identifies the pericope as a parable.
We need an Arabic scholar to help with this question.

I guess the clarity of each translation is proportional to the honesty of the translator.
For example verse 55:56 by Khan ;

Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.
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David & Airmano,

Please enlighten us (out of curiosity): If Muslims (according to you) should not take these descriptions (of paradise) 'literally'... then how should they understand them exactly?

Chapter (47) sūrat muḥammad

Sahih International: Is the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord, like [that of] those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines?

Pickthall: A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?

Yusuf Ali: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

Shakir: A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.

Muhammad Sarwar: The garden, which is promised to the pious, is like one in which there are streams of unpolluted water, streams of milk of unchangeable taste, streams of delicious wine, and streams of crystal clear honey. Therein they will have all kinds of fruits and forgiveness from their Lord. On the other hand (can these people be considered like), those who will live forever in hell fire and will drink boiling water which will rip their intestines to bits?

Mohsin Khan: The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels?

Arberry: This is the similitude of Paradise which the godfearing have been promised: therein are rivers of water unstaling, rivers of milk unchanging in flavour, and rivers of wine -- a delight to the drinkers, rivers, too, of honey purified; and therein for them is every fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord -- Are they as he who dwells forever in the Fire, such as are given to drink boiling water, that tears their bowels asunder?

My question is: What do you understand from the highlighted/colored bits above?
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Points: 2474 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 8:38pm
Yandex: The text directly states this is a parable. People do tend to not read carefully or without attempting a prayerful understanding, but this is obvious. I do not know anyone in this forum who would deliberately leave out the allegorical nature of that verse to decieve, but as Shakespeare wrote, "The devil can quote Scripture to serve his purpose."

Miaw: My reading of those phrases, based on biblical similarities, but is that 'rivers' means without limit. It also implies life and time. Not being in the river implies being outside of time and watching it pass. Water' refers to purity. 'Milk' and 'Honey' refer to life everlasting, as these are the foods which are obtained without loss of life.

Wine refers to a spiritual elevation. Alcohol being prohibited in Islam, the allegorical nature of the pericope is a natural inference.
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asep garut View Drop Down
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Originally posted by alisondmurray alisondmurray wrote:

Hi, I looked up what evidence the quran has to prove itself as the word of god, and I must say I found a lot of scientific facts and mathematical miracles in the Quran and it proved to me that this book was not by any humans but that doesn't necessarily means its from the one god, Islam teaches us that there are aliens in the world and we are not alone, and there is a high possibility there are aliens with high technology that can easily deceive Mohammad and give him this religion with some scientific miracles to make people believe in him what I want is a prove that cannot be from anyone but god not aliens or humans or devils or whatever I want an evidence that can only come from god, I cant build my belief without %100 evidence, 
I want to make sure I am worshiping the right god in the right religion.

Hi Alisondmurray, there are several ways to determine whether a religion can be considered true and can build trust, among others:

1.       See the contents of all the religious books that exist today (as a comparison), do not look at the adherents because it may be that our way of thinking will be affected by one's attitude.

2.       You will be able to determine approximately which of the books approach the truth by looking from the original language of the book-bearer's time, the order of its editorials, and most importantly looking at its content whether God or Angel speaks or only words from people.

3.       Look at His Words whether there are many contradictions or not. (without any revisions).

4.       See the development of such the book, whether more and more studied and also its adherents.

5.       Whether all its contents can answer all the behavior of human life or not? etc.

 

Hopefully you will find a religion that can build your trust without coercion and pressure except you can freely decide yourself to Whom you should worship.

You are right that all need proofs, so don't let your efforts in this world become vain to face your eternal life in hereafter.
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