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Wants a proof that Quran is God's word !!
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MIAW View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Al Masihi Al Masihi wrote:

But Allah knew that the people of the book were going to change the books, but he did nothing and knew that outcome so then you admit your god was a deceiver? Actually your god is using the old trick of diminished justice by pinning it on the people 9f the scripture when he let them, aided them, and gave them all means to commit the crime and did not stop them.

This is such a weak argument!

God Knows about every 'crime' before it happens (or even be planned) ... so you want Him to stop every crime, murder, corruption, bullying, tyranny, wrongdoing, rape, abuse, hostility, war, destruction, theft, robbery, cheating, forgery...etc...etc.

Wouldn't it be a nice place to live in!! (if all these crimes were stopped and prevented... i.e if they were inexistant).

Ah but... wait a second...

This place DOES EXIST!!

We call it Paradise.

The only thing is... to be in it... EACH ONE OF US HAS TO EARN IT. (That's the whole idea! Wink)
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

So many ways to read this.   They killed him not may mean they ' Pharisees' did not kill but Romans killed Jesus. Or, they used a substitute who was killed and Jesus escaped. I have heard Muslims on this board who held there positions in the past.

Some think Jesus was actually crucified but not killed. Unlikely as that was a capital offense for Roman soldiers.


Normally the poor wretch on the cross would rot off.

Unless they needed the cross for the next victim.

Like a long line for the barber's chair?

Per Mark 15:42-47, a rich man bribed Pilate for Jesus' body and Pilate was surprised Jesus had died so soon.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:

We call it Paradise.


Yes. As the Quran describes it;

Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31)

Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. (Qur'an 22:23)

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

(Qur'an 47:15)

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24)

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56)

And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33)

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23)

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger),- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19)
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

...Frankly Miaw, when it comes to the "bible being corrupted"  you are the funniest chap alive.

 Citing the Quran.... in support of the Quran.

 

@airmano,

 

This has been discussed so many times before; the internet is full of it.

 

First: Let’s get one thing out of the way...

No Muslim should feel obliged to give any evidence (to a non-Muslim) about anything to do with Islam... that is because enough evidence was given by our Prophet Muhammad PBUH to people who were in a much better position (than anyone living today) to scrutinize that evidence (either because they were Non-Muslim scholars at that time, or were 'living/confirming witnesses' to what our Prophet was preaching/claiming at the time. And because the evidence that our prophet presented was so strong and compelling, Islam spread like 'wild fire' within only a few years, reaching Africa, Europe and Asia. Reason: Because the Light of Truth that everyone was 'longing for' had finally arrived to replace the Darkness of Falsehood that had prevailed all over the world at the time.

 

However...

 

If I do have to support any claim, then I, as a Muslim, only have three sources available to me:

 

1) Divine words from previous scriptures.

I will not use these because, unfortunately, they have been changed and corrupted by humans. Period. We believe in the same (one) God, but (parts of) the message are now different. The same God does not send two conflicting messages. When you manufacture a machine or computer, you do not write two conflicting User’s Guides (Manuals), you include just one.

 

2) My own logical thinking and analysis, as well as the opinions and logical rhetoric of philosophers, certain authors and apologists, thinkers, Ahlul-Kalaam (People of Talk Talk Talk, i.e. Hot Air).

I will not use these because...

Well… we’ve seen where ‘unguided’ human perception of the concept of God, Creation,etc has led us in the past. We simply have to accept that there are concepts that we cannot perceive or even imagine… such as …God.

In fact it is so difficult to encompass that some people have had to satisfy themselves by drawing a ‘picture’ of God (usually a Huge old man with long white beard and hair), others gave him an additional ‘human dimension’ like Christians and Jews, and others have even given up on the idea altogether (Atheists…etc). 

Some concepts have to be guided and ‘channeled’, otherwise they will wander and err all over the place… rather like pouring water onto a field and expecting it to all go towards the tree at the other end of the field.


3) Divine words from The Qur’an. (and Sunnah)

That’s what I believe in, and that’s the only source I shall use to support any claim. So please try to get used to it.



Telling the rest of us that your, Islamic, arguments are simply better than any others just because they come from Islam is not going to impress anybody.

You are on the internet. Not in some sort of Islamic school where any challenge to Islam is punished. You have the same expectations on you as the rest of us where supporting your arguments are concearned.
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airmano View Drop Down
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Quote Miaw
No Muslim should feel obliged to give any evidence (to a non-Muslim) about anything to do with Islam...
 
Sure, you are indeed not obliged. But it brings you in the same position as those who are convinced to be Napoleon.

Asking them "can you prove it ?" usually results in "Why should I ? I know I'm Napoleon !"


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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MIAW View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:

Telling the rest of us that your, Islamic, arguments are simply better than any others just because they come from Islam is not going to impress anybody.

You are on the internet. Not in some sort of Islamic school where any challenge to Islam is punished. You have the same expectations on you as the rest of us where supporting your arguments are concearned.


@Tim,

I don't have 'arguments'. I just have a faith that I am happy with... and would like the chance to 'practice it' peacefully and without  negative interference all the time. 

At the end of the day... I really... really believe that I (along with everyone else who has ever walked this Earth) will (at some point) be brought to account in a way that is so 'detailed' that it is impossible to imagine with our weak human minds... and I am only trying to 'save' myself from the unimaginable punishment that ensues... and it 'will' happen, otherwise what exactly is the point of this very 'short' life of ours?...
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:

Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:

Telling the rest of us that your, Islamic, arguments are simply better than any others just because they come from Islam is not going to impress anybody.

You are on the internet. Not in some sort of Islamic school where any challenge to Islam is punished. You have the same expectations on you as the rest of us where supporting your arguments are concearned.


@Tim,

I don't have 'arguments'. I just have a faith that I am happy with... and would like the chance to 'practice it' peacefully and without  negative interference all the time. 

At the end of the day... I really... really believe that I (along with everyone else who has ever walked this Earth) will (at some point) be brought to account in a way that is so 'detailed' that it is impossible to imagine with our weak human minds... and I am only trying to 'save' myself from the unimaginable punishment that ensues... and it 'will' happen, otherwise what exactly is the point of this very 'short' life of ours?...


OK, enjoy.

But you are not here, on the internet, quietly practicing your faith. You are here spreading the message of Islam.

You have every right to do this.

But don't expect to go unchallenged.
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MIAW View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:


OK, enjoy.

But you are not here, on the internet, quietly practicing your faith. You are here spreading the message of Islam.

You have every right to do this.

But don't expect to go unchallenged.

Good point. I agree.

I don't mind being challenged... It's the way that it's done (by some people)!

Being challenged and opposed is an honor... it's the trait of Prophets and Messengers of Allah (Peace and Blessings upon them all), i.e. the examples that we mean to follow.
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