Taking comments in "moderation"

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   I won't give this subject a 'Bismillah' because such statements shouldn't be made using God's name especially when there is frustration involved. It is apparent to me that any postings here which criticizes the elite class in our Ummah is avoided thus the closing of my topic.
There are obvious problems in our society which should be addressed however to address those problems through the tunnel of criticism risk being silenced. As did many philosophers such as Averroes who was casted out by his own brethren in Islam for having a rational view and so have other Muslims before him.
I don't see this as a type of dialetical matyrdom, but I do see the actions of some moderators disturbing. What is more disturbing is that you brother Rami (yes I'm singling you out since you single us so-called CONVERTS out) would make a lasting remarks as "The audacity of some converts."
First and foremost the post that I originally made I admit was rushed because I wanted to briefly post some food for thought however when my day was done I planned to come back on IC and follow up with more postings that backed up my position. Brother you made mention in your PM that such subjects were discussed before. How Hypocritical are you all! Obviously the discussion and bashing of the U.S is never old and tiresome yet discussing the mutilation of women is all of a sudden tiresome? Oh wait you mean the discussion of converts is tiresome and old and was discussed before?
Regardless what subject is considered tiresome you have no right to close the topic especially if I haven't violated anything. Yet you can make such ignorant and remarkably shocking comments as saying "the audacity of some converts." You claim that I'm fairly new to Islam. I have been a so-called convert for 6 years now since 2000 however as the Hadith say, we are all born Muslim. All humans. Therefore the sense of one reverting back to their primordial faith one is thus not new spiritually to the faith(Islam).
Your lack of reason in closing the discussion without a counter argument, is a weakness on your part. Your lack of any counter dialectical argumenet shows the true problem of our society. People like you and those that think like you deserve to be personally criticized. Again I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say and counter arguing what I say, I call that a healthy argument, but the problem I do have with you is making lasting statements such as that.
You may not see a problem with that but I do, but then again you and those who think like you and some Jews that think like your class have this innate belief of a "right to Islam" in the sense that you are of an elite class and thus chosen in the sense. You may not personally think like that but your words reflect a type of action that I've seen in a lot of Muslims. Especially migrant ones.
Brother if I can make a suggestion to you from now on treat me like an atheistic non-muslim, as you have talked to me anyway. From your last comment I sincerely have no respect for you as you have disrespected me the highest that any Muslim has. I can sincerely with my heart declare that you are no brother to me and since you were not man enough to PM me on the reasons why my topic was closed and show me respect in that manner I too will not show you respect in that manner.
Also, how do you know any of us is not a scholar? Or perhaps a potential scholar? By what we say? Unlike you brother I'm not a slave to a Sheykh or some pitiful sect like Shias and Sunnis or do I kiss buildings because my Fiqh says so. I am a  Muslim who bows to Allah the Artisan of our universe. I assume my comments here would be silenced since most of the moderators here cannot take constructive criticism with the exception of two people: Sister Khadija and Sister Nausheen I hold these two exempt from my fury.......
Brother Rami I don't know if you're older than me but perhaps you are but I suggest finding yourself spiritually and know that you can't just talk to any man like that.. Especially a Muslim brother such as myself because I see no distinction in  any of us save our deeds. I feel in this thread I have every right to be upset, not because of the closing of my comment but because of your last comment. Regardless how long I've been in Islam that is not important. You should be man enough to tell me privately that what I said is generally disagreeable and back your comments up with some statistics!

Since you cannot be man enough to do either, or show me that respect how can I respond to you in a respectful manner? I pray to Allah for the wisdom you solely deserve because you, mister, are thinking like these extremist who I am trained to fight against..........I suggest you find yourself spiritually brother.....

Edited by Israfil

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Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Topic: Taking comments in "moderation" Posted: 18 March 2006 at 10:31am
	I won't give this subject a 'Bismillah' because such statements shouldn't be made using God's name especially when there is frustration involved. It is apparent to me that any postings here which criticizes the elite class in our Ummah is avoided thus the closing of my topic. There are obvious problems in our society which should be addressed however to address those problems through the tunnel of criticism risk being silenced. As did many philosophers such as Averroes who was casted out by his own brethren in Islam for having a rational view and so have other Muslims before him. I don't see this as a type of dialetical matyrdom, but I do see the actions of some moderators disturbing. What is more disturbing is that you brother Rami (yes I'm singling you out since you single us so-called CONVERTS out) would make a lasting remarks as "The audacity of some converts." First and foremost the post that I originally made I admit was rushed because I wanted to briefly post some food for thought however when my day was done I planned to come back on IC and follow up with more postings that backed up my position. Brother you made mention in your PM that such subjects were discussed before. How Hypocritical are you all! Obviously the discussion and bashing of the U.S is never old and tiresome yet discussing the mutilation of women is all of a sudden tiresome? Oh wait you mean the discussion of converts is tiresome and old and was discussed before? Regardless what subject is considered tiresome you have no right to close the topic especially if I haven't violated anything. Yet you can make such ignorant and remarkably shocking comments as saying "the audacity of some converts." You claim that I'm fairly new to Islam. I have been a so-called convert for 6 years now since 2000 however as the Hadith say, we are all born Muslim. All humans. Therefore the sense of one reverting back to their primordial faith one is thus not new spiritually to the faith(Islam). Your lack of reason in closing the discussion without a counter argument, is a weakness on your part. Your lack of any counter dialectical argumenet shows the true problem of our society. People like you and those that think like you deserve to be personally criticized. Again I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say and counter arguing what I say, I call that a healthy argument, but the problem I do have with you is making lasting statements such as that. You may not see a problem with that but I do, but then again you and those who think like you and some Jews that think like your class have this innate belief of a "right to Islam" in the sense that you are of an elite class and thus chosen in the sense. You may not personally think like that but your words reflect a type of action that I've seen in a lot of Muslims. Especially migrant ones. Brother if I can make a suggestion to you from now on treat me like an atheistic non-muslim, as you have talked to me anyway. From your last comment I sincerely have no respect for you as you have disrespected me the highest that any Muslim has. I can sincerely with my heart declare that you are no brother to me and since you were not man enough to PM me on the reasons why my topic was closed and show me respect in that manner I too will not show you respect in that manner. Also, how do you know any of us is not a scholar? Or perhaps a potential scholar? By what we say? Unlike you brother I'm not a slave to a Sheykh or some pitiful sect like Shias and Sunnis or do I kiss buildings because my Fiqh says so. I am a Muslim who bows to Allah the Artisan of our universe. I assume my comments here would be silenced since most of the moderators here cannot take constructive criticism with the exception of two people: Sister Khadija and Sister Nausheen I hold these two exempt from my fury....... Brother Rami I don't know if you're older than me but perhaps you are but I suggest finding yourself spiritually and know that you can't just talk to any man like that.. Especially a Muslim brother such as myself because I see no distinction in any of us save our deeds. I feel in this thread I have every right to be upset, not because of the closing of my comment but because of your last comment. Regardless how long I've been in Islam that is not important. You should be man enough to tell me privately that what I said is generally disagreeable and back your comments up with some statistics! Since you cannot be man enough to do either, or show me that respect how can I respond to you in a respectful manner? I pray to Allah for the wisdom you solely deserve because you, mister, are thinking like these extremist who I am trained to fight against..........I suggest you find yourself spiritually brother..... Edited by Israfil

Jenni Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 705	Posted: 18 March 2006 at 1:29pm
	Israfil, I agree with you. It is not fair that because of tradition and what may or may not be a true hadith this practice of mutilating girls still takes place. It is disgutsting that men won't stand up and say it is cruel and unusual punishment. And there is NO benifit medically whatsoever to having this done. I wish Rami could be brave enough to stand up for girls on this one point. But I guess we should just let girls suffer around the world to preserve what was a preIslamic Archaic practice!!
	You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Posted: 18 March 2006 at 3:16pm
	Thank you Sister Jenni, Just re capping I just wanted to say that my point here was not to sound solely angry. My whole point here is that no Muslim should say to another Muslim "The audacity of some converts" because such statements and the like not only create a distinction of muslims within the Ummah but the reasons behind that are lacking.......Again if you think like this brother I too ask you to treat me as you would treat any non-muslim because I will not give you the same respect in that manner.....Again seeing how there is no sense of moderation here I assume this too, will be closed.

rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Posted: 18 March 2006 at 8:46pm
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem All statments should begin with this regardless of there purpose, all blessings are from allah and all guidance is from Allah which is what i am assuming this post is for becouse if this is merely a personal attack i would close this topic just like any other moderator would. i am also asuming you wrote the above beffore i sent you those two PM's as i wrote those prior to reading this. It is apparent to me that any postings here which criticizes the elite class in our Ummah is avoided thus the closing of my topic. Yes this is correct in regards to our Ulama and it is stated in the forum Guidlines in rules 1, 10 and 11. In an Islamic society according to our religion Scholars are not rediculed harrased, slandured or talked to or about in any ill manner. This goes for any scholar of any group regardless of there opinion, this is the behaviour of an Islamic cultural scociety. �It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allaah� [Faatir 35:28] �Allaah will be pleased with them, and they with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord� [al-Bayyinah 98:8] Say: are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endowed with understanding that receive admonition." (Al-Quran, 39:9) Rasulullah (sallallahu-alayhi-wasallam) made dua to Allah: "O Allah! let me not be alive and may you (O Sahabah!) also not be alive at such a time when the Aalim [scholar] will not be followed, and when no respect will be shown to the wise-learned ones. The people of that time will have hearts like kuffaar and their tongues will be eloquently sweet like the tongue of the Arabs." - Targheeb (al-I�tidaal of H.Shaikh Rasulullah (sallallahu-alayhi-wasallam) said: "That man is not from us (Muslims) who does not respect our elders, neither shows mercy on our young ones nor appreciates the Alim (scholar of Deen amongst us)" - Targheeb (al-I�tidaal of H.Shaikh) DIREGARD FOR ULAMA - AN OPEN SIGN OF QIYAAMAT I wanted to briefly post some food for thought however when my day was done I planned to come back on IC and follow up with more postings that backed up my position. Brother you made mention in your PM that such subjects were discussed before. How Hypocritical are you all! This subject is treated the same way as the threads on apostacy, it is not to be discussed untill conditions on this forum change. The last time this topic was discussed it resulted in each one of the multiple threads being locked and a number of forum members either being warned or banned from the forum. It seems people are not capable of a civilised discussion when it comes to such topics. This is why i reffered back to those prior discussion to remind you of them but it seems you were not around at the time or had not read them. Obviously the discussion and bashing of the U.S is never old and tiresome yet discussing the mutilation of women is all of a sudden tiresome? The US is the No.1 aggressor in the world all reasnoble critisism is justified becouse of its current and prior actions, it is the enemy of muslims around the world and has declared war on muslims openely ie iraq, iran, syria and every other country it has on its hit list. Oh wait you mean the discussion of converts is tiresome and old and was discussed before? If i disliked converts or women i would not have aproached a number of them [who i thought were suitable] and asked them to become moderators, that comment was directed at you and only you and i will explain it later in my post. You claim that I'm fairly new to Islam. I have been a so-called convert for 6 years now since 2000 however as the Hadith say, we are all born Muslim. Then your case is far wose than i thought, my impresions of you where that you had recently converted and unfortunatly learnt islam from secularists and orientalists but it seems you are here to preach your well entrenched version of islam not to learn or truly discuss. I only make one distinction among muslims when moderating on this board and that is between sunnis and non sunni's, this has everything to do with how i moderate and deciding which discussions are a misguidance and which are not and which should be moved to what sections. You are also not born a muslim, no one is, the proper translation of the hadith is �Every child is born on the [true] nature [of God] but his/her parents make him/her either a Christian, Jew, or Magian.� ie your beliefe in Allah is inherant in you, this does not tell you who your prophet is how to pray or how to fast it is simply an instinct to believe in Allah so on the day of judgment people wont say we did not know we had to believe in you and only you. This is also why the only sin Allah wont forgive on the day of judgment is asociating partners with him, we have been guided not to do this. Your lack of reason in closing the discussion without a counter argument, is a weakness on your part. Your lack of any counter dialectical argumenet shows the true problem of our society. People like you and those that think like you deserve to be personally criticized. If you were well aware of prior discussions you would know why i closed the topic, it was in that spirit and after thinking it was a posobility that you did not know that i sent you my second pm, prior to reading this. you were not man enough to PM me on the reasons why my topic was closed. I am under no obligation to explain my self, read rule 19 of the forum guidlines. Also, how do you know any of us is not a scholar? Or perhaps a potential scholar? By what we say? Unlike you brother I'm not a slave to a Sheykh or some pitiful sect like Shias and Sunnis or do I kiss buildings because my Fiqh says so. I am a Muslim who bows to Allah the Artisan of our universe. I feel at this point i should remind you this is a sunni forum. Would i be correct in assuming that when you go on hajj you will not kiss the black stone and say shahadah in front of it, go around the Kaaba which is merely a building, walk between saffwa and marwa, which are only two mountains, and stonning the shaytan, three pillars of stone. all of which have spritual benefit and nothing you can see physicaly. All muslims are obliged to follow an expert opinion in matters of deen, it does not matter which opinion as long as they are not relying on gossip, speculation or there own Kalam. We are free to choose which opinion we think is best unless we our selfs are scholars then we are obliged to make our own Ijtihad. Especially a Muslim brother such as myself because I see no distinction in any of us save our deeds. I see a big distinction between what is acceptable in sunni islam and what isnt. We love our prophet more than our selves, we believe in the Quran and his sunnah as being authentic and preserved and we follow the sahaba the tabiin and the tabi tabiin as well as those whom allah spoke of in the above verses in the Quran and in many more, we take our religion as a whole and not any particular part of it only. Again I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say and counter arguing what I say, I call that a healthy argument, but the problem I do have with you is making lasting statements such as that. I will outline what was wrong with your post. Apart from the topic itself being offlimits to discussion, - Slandering of scholars, - wrongly labeling female surcumsision as mutilation, - Implying a hadith is fabricated with no evidence to prove it as such. According to some scholars the justification of female mutilation come from this hadith: 'Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband'." _1,8 - Spreading islamicly false information - corecting muslims with secular discourse which has no basis on the islaimc understanding of man and his nature. The unforunate myth that we have in the Muslim community especially among tribal Muslims is that mutilation of the female genitalia will curb sexual desire. WRONG! Sexual desire does not come from our reporductive organs rather, as Human seuality 101 states: most of our desire or actions crom from our brain. Some women of african [among other societies] have over developed genitalia, the mere act of walking causes friction in that region wich is enough to arouse desire, a slight trimming which is exactly what it is not some over exagerated description of the act reduces desire caused by this action and similar actions. You will also notice that a physical act is the cause of arousal in a women. - not knowing the subject matter corectly and confusing labels. The problem here is cultural not religious and because it is cultural, the cultural philosophy has been taught to many children over generations upon generations. The most notable issue is the woman's purity. Mutilation is cultural, circumsision is not it is religiously sanctioned. As i have pointed out in previous discussions [which i assumed you had known about] and in my last PM, I have a Question regarding female circumcision in Hanafi fiqh. I've heard from several sources that this is wajib according to Shafi'i fiqh, while according to Hanafi fiqh the decision lies in the hands of the husband. Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?! Walaikum assalam, That which is wajib in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight 'trimming' of the tip of the clitoris. It is neither excision nor FGM, nor anything else harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure. This is what the Hanafis considered an 'token' for the husband. It is not recommended per se. As for excision, FGM, or other harmful practices, which have become culturally widespread, none of these are in any way permitted. This is why the scholars generally say that the proper practice is almost a lost art. And Allah alone gives success. Wassalam, Faraz Rabban the above is in exact accordance with the hadith of the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] that you quoted. The following is the shafii ruling on female circumcision as found in Reliance of the Traveller. e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O:for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuse (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistaken assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of a women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband). (p.59) "' Umdat al-Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper) is a classic manual of fiqh. It represents the fiqh rulings according to the Shafi'I school of jurisprudence." It is certified by "Al Azhar". It represents an explanative interpretation of 'Umdat al-salik, a classic Sunni manual of sacred law by Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri (d769/1368) that comprises the work of Imam Nawawi [one of the main Mujtahid Imams of the shafii madhhab], the great thirteenth century Shaffi hadith scholar and juriprudent (expert in fiqh). Ibn Naqibs famous handbook carefully summarizes the onclusions of Nawawi's legal encyclopidia al-Majmu on all aspects of practicing Islam, from prayer, marriage, jihad, and inheritence to other facets of islamic life -other wrong statments, misconceptions and sladerous comments against our scholars. 1) A woman who has not been touched by a man is considered pure and the sign of such purity is the hymen which is still entact. although the second part is correct, the first most defenitly is not. A sign of puirty for a women is her verginity something all three religions share and believe in. The Virgin Mary would not have pointed out to the angel Gabrial in the Quran she has not been touched and he would not have reassured her that she wont be if Allah himself did not consider it as being pure. Many Muslim scholars appear to justify mutilation with the following reasons: again you wrongly label and accuse our Ulama due to you lack of knowledge in the matter. The Great Sheikh of Al-Azhar (the most famous University of the Islamic World) stated that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds. Parents must do their duty and have their daughters circumcised. The islamic position is clear and these people have a right to follow what they think is correct with out you slandering there scholars and elders and wrongly accusing them of mutilation something haram in islam. My last comment was a comment on your level of knowledge when it comes to islam and in reply to the tone of your so called discussion, you presume you can come and preach to us what islam is, nothing in your post was seeking to further understand the islamic position on the matter it was to correct muslims about there own faith. Jenni. It is not fair that because of tradition and what may or may not be a true hadith this practice of mutilating girls still takes place. It is disgutsting that men won't stand up and say it is cruel and unusual punishment. And there is NO benifit medically whatsoever to having this done. I wish Rami could be brave enough to stand up for girls on this one point. But I guess we should just let girls suffer around the world to preserve what was a preIslamic Archaic practice!! If the hadith of our prophet is true allah in the Quran commands us to follow him, otherwise you are welcome to prove it is a false hadith. You are also generaly ignorant of islamic legal standards of evidence we dont simply follow gossip and take it as our religion we research and look into matters. Your entire statment is a fallacy and lacks any credability by the simple fact that you choose to ignore evidence and information when considering the matter, this is unaccptable by our standards sister we dont bury our heads in the sand when it comes to the words of our prophet. ---------------------------------------- Any further discussion on Female circumsision in this thread will be deleeted i only adressed the issue becouse of the distress of br israfil. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.