I am not a member of any religion |
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Author | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazz
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: 25 September 2005 at 4:15am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hello Firewall, Do you think all this cursing (in the following ayats) has anything to do with hatred? Or do you think that cursing means to love? According to Mohammed's "revelations", here we have the creator of the entire creation who has to curse people and have mere men carry-out punishments..........do you really think that almighty God need men's help or needs to curse people simply because they did not believe that Mohammed was a prophet as he claimed? Why would not such an almighty god simply just wipe-out and destroy these alleged enemies of god himself and be done with it?..............was God not capable? Quran: The Cow
The Family of Imran
The Women
The Dinner Table
The Elevated Places
The Immunity
The Holy Prophet
The Thunder
The Rock
The Children of Israel
The Light
The Narratives
The Spider
The Clans
Suad
The Believer
Muhammad
The Victory
The Scatterers
The Covered One
He Frowned
The Folded Up
The Celestial Stations
sahih al-Bukari كتاب المحاربي 06; من أهل الكفر والردة (The Book of Those Who Wage War Amongst the Disbelievers and Apostates)
(2) sahih al-Bukari كتاب الرهن (The Book of Mortgaging)
sahih al-Bukari كتاب (The Book of Penalty of Hunting While on Pilgrimage)
(4) A false statement is a lie........yes? Whether the lie is for good intentions or otherwise, a lie is a lie! Now why would a prophet of God condone lying of any kind. How could a person who says that lying is OK be trusted to not tell lies? sahih al-Bukari كتاب الصلح (The Book of Peacemaking)
Edited by Jazz |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Posted: 25 September 2005 at 11:58am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks bro Jazz for your response, though grossly exasperating. Let us see as what you have presented, makes any sense?
Hi AhmadJoyia, What aggressors?............there is no mention of aggressors in these ayats. It sems to me to be an appeal to Mohammed's followers to fight, citing hypotheticals........the closest that any of these ayats comes to even suggesting an actual aggressor is...."why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?"...........note the "oppressed" is in parenthisis, and yest it still doesn't indicate any aggressors of any sort. True that �(and oppressed)� is in parenthesis but it doesn�t mean it is not true, though my brother Jazz has not provided any alternate explanation of this verse. On the more, even if the words �and oppressed� are not considered, the meaning of the verse provides clear understanding that it refers to the aggressors wherefore, the verse is categorically appealing for the plight of �weak� and �ill-treated� people by those against whom fighting is being prescribed. It would be highly illogical, if nothing else, to construe that the fighting is but against the �weak� and �ill-treated� people themselves. Hence, the verse makes it very clear that the fighting is against those who are aggressors, even if we omit the words (and oppressed) from the translation. On the more, it is strange that my brother Jazz didn�t bother to read ahead in the same verse (4:75) where the plight of these oppressed people is being conveyed to the Muslims. I.e. ������.Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" Isn�t this a mistake well observable that brother Jazz is making, despite his claim of impartiality? Nevertheless, we move forward to his next attempt. Here he says
Ok, my brother, though there are numerous ways to answer your this extremely simplistic question, however, I would simply ask is it not for people to help those who need help against aggressors? Leave it aside as how you define �cause� of Allah, the fact remain that Muslims are encouraged to stand on the moral principles of humanity even if the aggressors is multiple times stronger than themselves. If you have any trouble with this principle of Islam, do let me know, and shall see how to further elaborate it with reference to Quranic verses.
O my dear brother Jazz, God doesn�t need our help at all. However, obeying Him implies helping him. Since He is Just, he loves just people. It is more of saying that to make someone happy, you listen and obey him. Prevailing justice on earth, helping poor even if it means fighting against the oppressor, are all what people can do to earn their good rewards. Even if you don�t believe in God, doesn�t this make sense to those who are humble and want to work for the humanity.
By saying that God needs the efforts of men, is to say that God is not capable.....can you not see a denial of God's capacity, a suggestion that God needs help that is asserted in these ayats? Yes, God can do anything He wants, anytime He likes. But then, how would good people be distinguished from those who are wicked and oppressors?
Mohammed was inventing things when he claimed it was God's intentions to have people "fight in God's cause" to stir-up hatred and to invent an enemy for his followers, to justify in their minds violence against fellow humans, for the purpose of achieving his own personal aims�����. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
firewall
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2004 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 215 |
Posted: 25 September 2005 at 5:40pm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
bismillahi rahmani raheem,
hello jazz. again i state this verse, Sahih Bukhari, 9:93:473 Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah:Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said, "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind." i suggest you learn the 99 Names of Allah. Allah can praise a good man, just as well as Allah can punish an evil man. the same principle goes for the creation of heaven & hell. do you think that hell means to love? so if you're truly a good man, then Allah's promise to you is to love & be merciful you. & that also goes for likewise. the difference between a good human & a bad human is like the seer & the blind. they're not equal. Allah states: Quran, 11:24 These two kinds (of men) may be compared to the blind and deaf, and those who can see and hear well. Are they equal when compared? Will ye not then take heed?
look at the section, jazz. that hadith is for Disbelievers at War with Allah and His Messenger. they attack, we fight back to defend ourselves. if you don't attack us, we would not fight you. need i to repeat again. Quran, 4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened NO WAY for you (to war against them).
again the same principle. Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf is a wicked enemy who poses harm first. this result in the law that rules the death penalty for Ka'b. if he doesn't pose harm, he wouldn't be ruled to death. in this case, Muhammad bin Maslama (note: he's not Prophet Muhammad [PBUH]) volunteered to state the penalty on Ka'b. so he went to Ka'b. he even tested Ka'b, for a loan of 1 or 2 wasqs of food grains. just for the grains, Ka'b demanded Muhammad bin Maslama's women & sons for mortgages! that's the heinous wicked nature of Ka'b. thus his evil nature was proven again, & plus his harmful ways, it's fair that Ka'b be ruled the death penalty.
i don't really understand why you take this verse. maybe you think "inventing good information" is bad? it might just be the english translation of the word "inventing" itself, it doesn't capture the essence of the Arabic word maybe. Jazz, pls note that killing with hostility towards peaceful people is a big sin in Islam. Allah Opens NO WAY for that. the recompense is hell. even in unintentional murder, be it on a believer or peaceful non believers, we must pay compensation to the deceased family & make repentance. Quran, 4:92 Never should a believer kill a believer; but (if) by mistake, (compensation is due): If one kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom. even so, we do have laws that states the death penalty. even in the modern system, there are death penalties in the legal system. is such laws unacceptable? the key is, if you don't break the law, there shouldn't be reasons for the law to turn on you. i.e. some countries even states the death penalty for drug traffickers. why? to preserve the country from drug trafficking. even if you're the nicest person, if you traffick drugs, the law states you will be given the death penalty. with the Grace from Allah, i hope you understand. & i seek refuge in Allah from errors, may Allah Helps me & others towards the truth. wallahu a'lam. Edited by firewall |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazz
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: 27 September 2005 at 12:34am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The muslims must have had a lot of people attacking them, even all the way to Spain. Do you really believe that Mohammed and his band of thugs only fought and killed in self-defence? Have you seen this list? Can you explain how is it that all these battles were in self-defence? I have high-lighted a few of the places that were INVADED to show that Mohammed and his immediate chain of successors were not just sitting around being holy, peaceful people as you have asserted. ---------------------------------------------------------- ------- 622 - Muhammad immigrates from Mecca to Medina, which was then called Yathrib, gets more converts. 623 - Battle of Waddan 623 - Battle of Safwan 623 - Battle of Dul-'Ashir 624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement. 624 - Zakat becomes mandatory 624 - Battle of Badr 624 - Battle of Bani Salim 624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr 624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa' 624 - Battle of Sawiq 624 - Battle of Ghatfan 624 - Battle of Bahran 625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed. 625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad 625 - Battle of Banu Nudair 625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa 626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra 626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal 626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah 627 - Battle of the Trench 627 - Battle of Ahzab 627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza 627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan 627 - Battle of Ghaiba 627 - Battle of Khaibar 628 - Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish. 630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca. 630 - Battle of Hunsin. 630 - Battle of Tabuk 632 - Muhammad dies. 632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia. 633 - Battle at Oman 633 - Battle at Hadramaut. 633 - Battle of Kazima 633 - Battle of Walaja 633 - Battle of Ulleis 633 - Battle of Anbar 634 - Battle of Basra, 634 - Battle of Damascus 634 - Battle of Ajnadin. 634 - Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. 634 - Battle of Namaraq 634 - Battle of Saqatia. 635 - Battle of Bridge. 635 - Battle of Buwaib. 635 - Conquest of Damascus. 635 - Battle of Fahl. 636 - Battle of Yermuk. 636 - Battle of Qadsiyia. 636 - Conquest of Madain. 637 - Battle of Jalula. 638 - Battle of Yarmouk. 638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem. 638 - Conquest of Jazirah. 639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt. 641 - Battle of Nihawand 642 - Battle of Rayy in Persia 643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan 644 - Conquest of Fars 644 - Conquest of Kharan. 644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph. 647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress 644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman. 648 - Campaign against the Byzantines. 651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines. 654 - Islam spreads into North Africa 656 - Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph. 658 - Battle of Nahrawan. 659 - Conquest of Egypt 661 - Ali is murdered. 662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule. 666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims 677 - Siege of Constantinople 687 - Battle of Kufa 691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq 700 - Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam 700 - Military campaigns in North Africa 702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira 711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar 711 - Conquest of Spain 713 - Conquest of Multan 716 - Invasion of Constantinople 732 - Battle of Tours in France. 740 - Battle of the Nobles. 741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa 744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr. 746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha 748 - Battle of Rayy. 749 - Battle of lsfahan 749 - Battle of Nihawand 750 - Battle of Zab 772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa 777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain Edited by Jazz |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mouhssine4
Newbie Joined: 06 September 2005 Location: Morocco Status: Offline Points: 30 |
Posted: 27 September 2005 at 2:50am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
salam to all muslim and good people these guys are trying to portray us as killers and they post messages like these, their goal is to have others who are interested in islam (and alhamdou li Allah, they are many) get discusted and give up their quest in knowing the truth so please brothers and sisters let not these message with out replay and the best way is an ayat or two from yousuf ali translation of the Holy coran having relation with the question being reased jazz said Do you really believe that Mohammed and his band of thugs only fought and killed in self-defence?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
firewall
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2004 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 215 |
Posted: 30 September 2005 at 7:43am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
YES. for battles during Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) life time, i'm 100% guarantee it is the case. i guarantee the righteousness of TRUE, PRACTISING MUSLIMS, to defend themselves because that's the law as stated in the Quran. honestly Jazz, i think you might be biased via negative portrayals of muslims & maybe your own biased persecption. i once watched a documentary & they depicted muslims as invaders, whereby the leader take harems & marry hindu princesses as to govern lands. i was just as appalled as anybody would be! if i don't know any better i'd hate the muslims too. but true muslims dont' do that! so i hope you can distinguish between true muslims & ppl who don't follow the Islamic law. TRUE MUSLIMS follow the Quran, & the Quran states there is NO WAY to fight peaceful people. true muslims fight in defence. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) fight in defence. Edited by firewall |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Posted: 02 October 2005 at 10:37am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
O my dear brother Jazz, from your list, as I see none being highlighted during the life time of Prophet Mohammad, I assume now you very well know the background of these battles. It really doesn't matter to me much as what people after him had been doing. Simply because, I don't consider them to be anything but humans only. This is starking different than what Prophet Mohammad was, a human messanger of God same as those Prophets who came before him.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazz
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: 03 October 2005 at 1:18am | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi AhmadJoyia, Starting from the top of the list. Leading-up to "The Battle of Waddan",
one can see that Mohammed was intent on hostilities against the
Makkans......it was pay-back time......he had gathered what he
considered as sufficient forces to hopefully become successful as an aggressor and to expand his empire. In
January 623, barely six months after the Hijrah, the Muslims launched
their first raid to intercept a Makkan caravan traveling north to It
was "convenient" for Mohammed's Allah to deliver "revelations" that
promoted and justified the violent and aggressive attacks, by providing
the "god-given" right to deem the "enemy" as enemies of "god's" cause,
making the violence, looting, theft, enslaving, adulterous sexual abuse
of captives and killing "legal". |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |