Ambrosia wrote: Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example. This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.

I don't necessarily agree that "islam" promotes violence, islam is a name......names can't do any such thing.

But it is clear that Mohammed and quran promote violence and many other offensive things.......for example........

Quran:

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Dear Ambrosia,
Would you kindly explain in what context this direction to kill is to be?

Ambrosia wrote: Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil: 1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens. 2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants. 3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war. 4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins. 5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently. 6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law. 7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

The first few of your examples, numvered 1 - 5 inclusive are from the Torah (aka Old Testiment) much like Quran they promote violence, much of which is acknowledged by Mohammed as valid "word" of god, prior to "revelation' of Quran, very similar in content and consistent with Quran.

The last 2 examples, (6) and (7) are from Gospels found in what is termed as New Testiment.

Dealing with your item (6) first........

Here is Mark 7:9 with the preceeding verses, starting from the beginning of the chapter.

Mark 7:1-9

Mark 7

Clean and Unclean

    ⁶He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you   hypocrites; as it is written:
   " 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
    ⁷They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'^{[ http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=31#fen-NIV-24468b" title="See footnote b - b ]
     8}You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
     ⁹And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
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Ambrosia,
There is NOTHING said in these verses that even alludes to "Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law."

Would you care to explain just what you are getting at?........have you posted the wrong reference?.......it simply does not say what you have alleged that it says.
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You have referred also to another piece from Gospels...........alleging........

Ambrosia wrote: In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Dear Ambrosia,

Again you have made a mistake........if you read Luke 19 you will clearly see that the person who orders to killed anyone who does not accept a person as a ruler, is a man in a STORY (parable) that Jesus was telling.

You see it was a man in the story that Jesus was describing in a parable that asked for people to be killed......it was not Jesus who asked for people to be killed.

Here is all of Luke 19, so you can read it again and you will see the mistake you have made.

I will place in parenthesis ( ) who is speaking to make it clear for you.

The Parable of the Ten Minas    

¹¹While they were listening to this, he (Jesus) went on to tell them a parable, because he (Jesus) was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

¹²He (Jesus) said: "A man (the man who the story is about) of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself  (the man who the story is about) appointed king and then to return.

¹³So he (the man who the story is about) called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.^{[ http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=19&version=31#fen-NIV-25736a" title="See footnote a - a ]}'Put this money to work,' he said, (the man who the story is about) 'until I come back.'

¹⁴"But his (the man who the story is about) subjects hated him (the man who the story is about) and sent a delegation after him (the man who the story is about) to say, 'We don't want this man (the man who the story is about) to be our king.'

¹⁵"He (the man who the story is about) was made king, however, and returned home. Then he (the man who the story is about) sent for the servants to whom he (the man who the story is about) had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

¹⁶"The first one came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) your mina has earned ten more.'

¹⁷" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master (the man who the story is about) replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

¹⁸"The second came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) your mina has earned five more.'

¹⁹"His master (the man who the story is about) answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

²⁰"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth.

²¹I was afraid of you,(to the man who the story is about)  because you are a hard man. (the man who the story is about) You (the man who the story is about) take out what you (the man who the story is about) did not put in and reap what you (the man who the story is about) did not sow.'

²²"His master replied, (the man who the story is about) 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man,(the man who the story is about) taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?

²³Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I (the man who the story is about) came back, I (the man who the story is about) could have collected it with interest?'

²⁴"Then he (the man who the story is about) said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

²⁵" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

²⁶"He (the man who the story is about) replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.

²⁷But those enemies of mine (the man who the story is about) who did not want me (the man who the story is about) to be king over them�bring them here and kill them in front of me."(the man who the story is about)

Ambrosia wrote:

Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example.

This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.
 
 
 
I liked the way u hv presented the argument, proving Ambrossia completely wrong in his apporoach to what he termed as 'violence in Bible?'But u ignored something, knowingly or not i cant say, but Ambrossia said".......and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible."He/she fully acknowledge that the given eg r out of context and hv no meaning!He/She angered by the unfair treatment against Islam, decided it is high time to show that Bible also contain such verses.
Any way, Ambrossia was right, u like many people quoted Quran out of context.Let us examine the verse u gave, and the versesbe4 and aftr 4:89,
004:088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
 004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

This surah was revealed to Muhammad(PBUH) during the time of battle of badr.During that time, the hypocrite of Mecca has collected a huge force(about more that one thousand) to crush the muslims in Medina.But muslims only managed to collect 313 soldier, and many of them didnt even have weapon.Naturally, the morale of the Muslim was low.During this time the verses were revealed.If u shall read 4:88, Allah was uniting them for there battle against the hypocrite.And to boost the morale during the battle field, Allah says where ever u find a enemy soldier, kill him.Now tell me: army general will of coursel command his soldier to kill the enemy?So when Quran say KILL THE ENEMY in war, what is wrong?
But as we come to 4:90, we find Quran has lots of more thing to add.It actually ask these people to show mercy to those people who dont want to fight and escort them to a place of safety.Which army general in todays world will ask his soldier to do that?The most generous of them all will let the peace loving people go, but not ESCORT THEM TO SAFETY.Thats wat Quran ask the muslim to do.

Also, i would request u to think before u write.Muhammad(PBUH) said that the bible was a word of God, but people has changed it.So whatever be the  contents, muslims r not reuired to defend it, since we dont know what is true and what is wrong.But CHRISTIAN now claim that it IS the pure word from God, so go and ask them.

I got another answer, check it out-Dayem

 

 

But if they turn away, catch them and slaughter them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (4:89)

 4:88-91 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they forsake the domain of evil in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them

So in the same manner as the first verse, this verse also only commands Muslims to fight those who practice oppression or persecution, or attack the Muslims. And in the event of a battle, the same laws of war are in place and a Muslim who transgresses limits should prepare for the punishment of God. In response to a question on verses 4:88-89, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi quotes the verses in their full context and then asks the following:

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the �terrorist�. These verses are not a permission for �terrorism� but they are a warning against the �terrorists.� But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized. ( http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=51761 - SOURCE , emphasis added)

6:151 Take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. 17:33 Nor take life, which God has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas(retribution) or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law) 5:32...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people

So the Qur'an makes it very clear that Muslims cannot initiate an attack against others, unless there is an immediate threat of being attacked. The context of the quoted verses applies only to situations where the oppressors are killing Muslims. In this case, they have a right to defend themselves and others, especially the weak and oppressed.

Dayem wrote: Ambrosia wrote: Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example. This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.       I liked the way u hv presented the argument, proving Ambrossia completely wrong in his apporoach to what he termed as 'violence in Bible?'But u ignored something, knowingly or not i cant say, but Ambrossia said".......and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible."He/she fully acknowledge that the given eg r out of context and hv no meaning!He/She angered by the unfair treatment against Islam, decided it is high time to show that Bible also contain such verses. Any way, Ambrossia was right, u like many people quoted Quran out of context.Let us examine the verse u gave, and the versesbe4 and aftr 4:89, 004:088 YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. 004.089 YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-  004.090 YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). This surah was revealed to Muhammad(PBUH) during the time of battle of badr.During that time, the hypocrite of Mecca has collected a huge force(about more that one thousand) to crush the muslims in Medina.But muslims only managed to collect 313 soldier, and many of them didnt even have weapon.Naturally, the morale of the Muslim was low.During this time the verses were revealed.If u shall read 4:88, Allah was uniting them for there battle against the hypocrite.And to boost the morale during the battle field, Allah says where ever u find a enemy soldier, kill him.Now tell me: army general will of coursel command his soldier to kill the enemy?So when Quran say KILL THE ENEMY in war, what is wrong? But as we come to 4:90, we find Quran has lots of more thing to add.It actually ask these people to show mercy to those people who dont want to fight and escort them to a place of safety.Which army general in todays world will ask his soldier to do that?The most generous of them all will let the peace loving people go, but not ESCORT THEM TO SAFETY.Thats wat Quran ask the muslim to do. Also, i would request u to think before u write.Muhammad(PBUH) said that the bible was a word of God, but people has changed it.So whatever be the  contents, muslims r not reuired to defend it, since we dont know what is true and what is wrong.But CHRISTIAN now claim that it IS the pure word from God, so go and ask them.

Dear Dayem,

You wrote.....

This surah was revealed to Muhammad(PBUH) during the time of battle of badr.

There is nothing in Surah 4 "The Women" about a battle........where do you get this from?

Surah 4 is about "unbelievers" where Mohammed's "revelation" is incitement to harm people because of their not believing him and his claims of prophethood.......nothing about a battle.........Mohammed 's "revelation" clearly calls for violence and killing against people he would have his followers deem as enemies due to the "enemy's" un belief.......not because of any war or battle.

I think you are putting this surah in to a context that did not exist beacuse you dislike the fact that Quran is rife with commandments, instructions to commit violent and atrocious, inhumane act against people who simply did not believe the claims of a MAN, that man being Mohammed.................most or many of the people whom Mohammed claimed were "unbelievers" were not unbelievers in God......they were unbelievers in Mohammed.

If you read Surah 3 you will see what I mean about how Mohammed uses God as his instrument to get people to believe HIM, saying that God had said these things.

There is nothing that qualifies Mohammed as a prophet except for his own claims as such, when one compares Mohammed to Jesus, it is plain to see what qualities are to be accepted by any balanced reasoning person as to what a prophet really should be likened to........Mohammed does not pass the test of sound reasoning in terms of qualities that should become a chosen prophet of a loving creator and father of all mankind.
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I have done a search using "badr" as a key-word and found this......

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar2.html - http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar2.html

Do you think this is a fair account of what happened in the times of Mohammed's "defensive" battles?

I think bro Jazz, your source of info viz a viz your source of references are baised and are not independent at the least. If you happen to be a nuetral observer, as you claims to be, then it would be more prudent to present the views of the both sides. This is glaringly revealing from your source of reference that you chose to read about "badr". Kindly read the chapter 4 of Quran the same way as you used to explain the verses from the Bible and surely you should find the right context in which these verses must be read and understood. Here is the prologue of the verses that you refered in chapter 4, but a little before:

'

74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

77. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

AhmadJoyia wrote: I think bro Jazz, your source of info viz a viz your source of references are baised and are not independent at the least. If you happen to be a nuetral observer, as you claims to be, then it would be more prudent to present the views of the both sides. This is glaringly revealing from your source of reference that you chose to read about "badr". Kindly read the chapter 4 of Quran the same way as you used to explain the verses from the Bible and surely you should find the right context in which these verses must be read and understood. Here is the prologue of the verses that you refered in chapter 4, but a little before: ' 74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). 75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" 76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 77. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least! These verses does reveal the fact that the fight was ordered against the aggressors.

Hi AhmadJoyia,

What aggressors?............there is no mention of aggressors in these ayats.

It sems to me to be an appeal to Mohammed's followers to fight, citing hypotheticals........the closest that any of these ayats comes to even suggesting an actual aggressor is...."why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?"...........note the "oppressed" is in parenthisis, and yest it still doesn't indicate any aggressors of any sort.

On another point........why would an almighty God, creator of the entire universe and all that it contains, need or depend on mere men to fight in his "cause"?

Is not God capable?.......what did God do before he created man?........was God lesser before man got created?.....did God create man because he needed help?

By saying that God needs the efforts of men, is to say that God is not capable.....can you not see a denial of God's capacity, a suggestion that God needs help that is asserted in these ayats?

Mohammed was inventing things when he claimed it was God's intentions to have people "fight in God's cause" to stir-up hatred and to invent an enemy for his followers, to justify in their minds violence against fellow humans, for the purpose of achieving his own personal aims.

Mohammed made it even more alluring to his followers and would-be followers to take-up arms and attack the neighbours (who did not believe HIM) by inventing God's sanctioning of slavery, looting, taking booty, theft, adultery and rape.........very appealing fringe-benefits indeed to the criminally minded.

The "unbelievers" were not unbelievers in God, they were unbelievers in Mohammed's claims of being chosen by God as a prophet...........why can't people see this or admit it?

Is it pride that stands in the way?......that people who have believed Mohammed's claims would be so embarrassed to admit they have been victims of a hoax.

What exactly would be the problem if is true that Mohammed was in fact a charlatan and a liar?

How would this in anyway change one's belief and faith in God?..............let's be completely honest here........what would really change?.......except for a few pagan-based Arab rituals and traditions, and parroting recitations in Arabic.

firewall wrote: bismillahi rahmani raheem, honestly, i truly rejects Jazz blasphemies on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) never solicits violence & hatred. he never attacks people. the time muslim brave to fight, is only when we're being attacked. Allah have made it clear that muslims have NO WAY to attack other peaceful people, be it muslim or non muslims.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=1320 - The Cow

1. [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
2. [2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
3. [2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
4. [2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=72808 - The Family of Imran

1. [3.61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
2. [3.87] (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839 - The Women

1. [4.46] Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
2. [4.47] O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
3. [4.52] Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him.
4. [4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.
5. [4.118] Allah has cursed him; and he said: Most certainly I will take of Thy servants an appointed portion:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=158021 - The Dinner Table

1. [5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
2. [5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
3. [5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.
4. [5.78] Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=227087 - The Elevated Places

1. [7.38] He will say: Enter into fire among the nations that have passed away before you from among jinn and men; whenever a nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until when they have all come up with one another into it; the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them: Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire. He will say: Every one shall have double but you do not know.
2. [7.44] And the dwellers of the garden will call out to the inmates of the fire: Surely we have found what our Lord promised us to be true; have you too found what your Lord promised to be true? They will say: Yes. Then a crier will cry out among them that the curse of Allah is on the unjust.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392 - The Immunity

1. [9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=333828 - The Holy Prophet

1. [11.18] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah? These shall be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses shall say: These are they who lied against their Lord. Now surely the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
2. [11.60] And they were overtaken by curse in this world and on the resurrection day; now surely Ad disbelieved in their Lord; now surely, away with Ad, the people of Hud.
3. [11.99] And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=377182 - The Thunder

1. [13.25] And those who break the covenant of Allah after its confirmation and cut asunder that which Allah has ordered to be joined and make mischief in the land; (as for) those, upon them shall be curse and they shall have the evil (issue) of the abode.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=397431 - The Rock

1. [15.35] And surely on you is curse until the day of judgment.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=429259 - The Children of Israel

1. [17.60] And when We said to you: Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We cause them to fear, but it only adds to their great inordinacy.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=541486 - The Light

1. [24.7] And the fifth (time) that the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars.
2. [24.23] Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=600517 - The Narratives

1. [28.42] And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=617270 - The Spider

1. [29.25] And he said: You have only taken for yourselves idols besides Allah by way of friendship between you in this world's life, then on the resurrection day some of you shall deny others, and some of you shall curse others, and your abode is the fire, and you shall not have any helpers.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=650389 - The Clans

1. [33.57] Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Apostle, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.
2. [33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
3. [33.64] Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning fire,
4. [33.68] O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=708759 - Suad

1. [38.78] And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=733153 - The Believer

1. [40.52] The day on which their excuse shall not benefit the unjust, and for them is curse and for them is the evil abode.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=797085 - Muhammad

1. [47.23] Those it is whom Allah has cursed so He has made them deaf and blinded their eyes.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=804189 - The Victory

1. [48.6] And (that) He may punish the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women, and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, the entertainers of evil thoughts about Allah. On them is the evil turn, and Allah is wroth with them and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=820181 - The Scatterers

1. [51.10] Cursed be the liars,

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=916843 - The Covered One

1. [74.19] But may he be cursed how he plotted;
2. [74.20] Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=936021 - He Frowned

1. [80.17] Cursed be man! how ungrateful is he!

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=938467 - The Folded Up

1. [81.25] Nor is it the word of the cursed Shaitan,

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=946037 - The Celestial Stations

1. [85.4] Cursed be the makers of the pit,

Firewall wrote: Sahih Bukhari, 9:93:473 Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah:Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said, "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind."

sahih al-Bukari

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=82 -

No. 6380	- Narrated Anas:
	The Prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of 'Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.

Firewall wrote: Sahih Bukhari, 9:83:10 Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "The biggest of Al-Kaba'ir (the great sins) are (1) to join others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to murder a human being, (3) to be undutiful to one's parents (4) and to make a false statement," or said, "to give a false witness."

(2)

sahih al-Bukari

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=45 -

No. 2349	- Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
	Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka'b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.

sahih al-Bukari

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=29 -

No. 1734	- Narrated Anas bin Malik:
	Allah's Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Ka'ba (taking refuge in the Ka'ba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him."

(4)
A false statement is a lie........yes?

Whether the lie is for good intentions or otherwise, a lie is a lie!

Now why would a prophet of God condone lying of any kind.

How could a person who says that lying is OK be trusted to not tell lies?

sahih al-Bukari

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=49 -

No. 2519	- Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:
	That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

 

Thanks bro Jazz for your response, though grossly exasperating. Let us see as what you have presented, makes any sense?

Hi AhmadJoyia, What aggressors?............there is no mention of aggressors in these ayats. It sems to me to be an appeal to Mohammed's followers to fight, citing hypotheticals........the closest that any of these ayats comes to even suggesting an actual aggressor is...."why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?"...........note the "oppressed" is in parenthisis, and yest it still doesn't indicate any aggressors of any sort.

True that �(and oppressed)� is in parenthesis but it doesn�t mean it is not true, though my brother Jazz has not provided any alternate explanation of this verse. On the more, even if the words �and oppressed� are not considered, the meaning of the verse provides clear understanding that it refers to the aggressors wherefore, the verse is categorically appealing for the plight of �weak� and �ill-treated� people by those against whom fighting is being prescribed. It would be highly illogical, if nothing else, to construe that the fighting is but against the �weak� and �ill-treated� people themselves. Hence, the verse makes it very clear that the fighting is against those who are aggressors, even if we omit the words (and oppressed) from the translation.

On the more, it is strange that my brother Jazz didn�t bother to read ahead in the same verse (4:75) where the plight of these oppressed people is being conveyed to the Muslims. I.e. ������.Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Isn�t this a mistake well observable that brother Jazz is making, despite his claim of impartiality?

Nevertheless, we move forward to his next attempt. Here he says 

On another point........why would an almighty God, creator of the entire universe and all that it contains, need or depend on mere men to fight in his "cause"?

Ok, my brother, though there are numerous ways to answer your this extremely simplistic question, however, I would simply ask is it not for people to help those who need help against aggressors? Leave it aside as how you define �cause� of Allah, the fact remain that Muslims are encouraged to stand on the moral principles of humanity even if the aggressors is multiple times stronger than themselves. If you have any trouble with this principle of Islam, do let me know, and shall see how to further elaborate it with reference to Quranic verses.  

Is not God capable?.......what did God do before he created man?........was God lesser before man got created?.....did God create man because he needed help?

O my dear brother Jazz, God doesn�t need our help at all. However, obeying Him implies helping him. Since He is Just, he loves just people. It is more of saying that to make someone happy, you listen and obey him. Prevailing justice on earth, helping poor even if it means fighting against the oppressor, are all what people can do to earn their good rewards. Even if you don�t believe in God, doesn�t this make sense to those who are humble and want to work for the humanity.

By saying that God needs the efforts of men, is to say that God is not capable.....can you not see a denial of God's capacity, a suggestion that God needs help that is asserted in these ayats?

Yes, God can do anything He wants, anytime He likes. But then, how would good people be distinguished from those who are wicked and oppressors?

Mohammed was inventing things when he claimed it was God's intentions to have people "fight in God's cause" to stir-up hatred and to invent an enemy for his followers, to justify in their minds violence against fellow humans, for the purpose of achieving his own personal aims�����.

salam to all muslim and good people

these guys are trying to portray us as killers

and they post messages like these, their goal is to have others who are interested in islam (and alhamdou li Allah, they are many) get discusted and give up their quest in knowing the truth

so please brothers and sisters let not these message with out replay

and the best way is an ayat or two from yousuf ali translation of the Holy coran having relation with the question being reased

islam is always for peace bu when evil tries to overcome and dominate good, muslims strik back, they strike back not because they want to steal the land richess or because they carry hatred and racisem in their heart, but to let good dominete evil 

O my dear brother Jazz, from your list, as I see none being highlighted during the life time of Prophet Mohammad, I assume now you very well know the background of these battles.

It really doesn't matter to me much as what people after him had been doing. Simply because, I don't consider them to be anything but humans only. This is starking different than what Prophet Mohammad was, a human messanger of God same as those Prophets who came before him.

AhmadJoyia wrote: O my dear brother Jazz, from your list, as I see none being highlighted during the life time of Prophet Mohammad, I assume now you very well know the background of these battles. It really doesn't matter to me much as what people after him had been doing. Simply because, I don't consider them to be anything but humans only. This is starking different than what Prophet Mohammad was, a human messanger of God same as those Prophets who came before him.

Hi AhmadJoyia,

Starting from the top of the list.

Leading-up to "The Battle of Waddan", one can see that Mohammed was intent on hostilities against the Makkans......it was pay-back time......he had gathered what he considered as sufficient forces to hopefully become successful as an aggressor and to expand his empire.

In January 623, barely six months after the Hijrah, the Muslims launched their first raid to intercept a Makkan caravan traveling north to Syria. The Muslim force consisted of forty riders under the command of Hamzah, the Prophet's uncle. The caravan was under the command of Abu Jahl. They met at al 'Is where Majdiy ibn 'Amr al Juhani separated them. At the same time, another Muslim force of sixty riders was sent to Rabigh, where a Makkan force of 200 led by Abu Sufyan had come to protect the caravan. The Makkans withdrew before the Muslims� arrival and no engagement took place. Sa'd ibn Abu Waqqas, who shot the first arrow under Islam at Rabigh, was commissioned by the Prophet to probe for the Makkans deeper into the Hijaz. He had a force of only twenty riders. Sa'd returned without engaging the enemy. In June 623, another Muslim force set out for al Abwa' with the Prophet himself in command. They reached Waddan, but no Makkans were there to engage them in battle. The Prophet talked to Banu Damrah, the inhabitants of the locality, and caused them to join the Muslim alliance. In July 623, another expeditionary force marched against a Makkan caravan led by Umayyah ibn Khalaf, without success. In the autumn of the same year (October 623), the Prophet led another force to 'Ushayrah in the district of Yanbu'. The expedition produced no engagement,
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It was "convenient" for Mohammed's Allah to deliver "revelations" that promoted and justified the violent and aggressive attacks, by providing the "god-given" right to deem the "enemy" as enemies of "god's" cause, making the violence, looting, theft, enslaving, adulterous sexual abuse of captives and killing "legal".

The Battle of Badr

Islam and War

God allowed the Muslims to fight in self-defense and to end persecution. The Muhajireen felt justified in raiding Qurayshi caravans because the Quraysh had confiscated their property, but they also realized that protecting Muslims against apostasy was a much higher duty in the eyes of God and His Prophet (pbuh). This is borne out by the following incident. Abdullah ibn Jahsh al-Asadi had been ordered to lead a sortie. Receiving sealed orders that were to be opened only after 2 days on the road, he learned that his mission was to observe the Quraysh�s movements. However, his companions were free to choose if they wanted to accompany him on the mission. Accordingly, two of them decided to travel on their own. While scouting, al-Asadi encountered a Qurayshi donkey caravan. Considering it an opportune moment, they seized it to compensate for their confiscated property. The caravan leader was killed, and his two assistants surrendered. When the sortie members led the caravan into Madinah and offered a share to the Prophet�s fund, Muhammad (pbuh) scolded them and refused the offering.

The Quraysh used this incident to launch a propaganda campaign accusing the Muslims of violating the sanctity of the holy months. The Jews readily joined in the chorus. This situation was solved only when God revealed that while fighting during the holy months was a grave misdeed, an even greater wrong was to block people from the way of God, violate the sanctity of the holy mosque, and to expel people from its precincts (Surat al-Baqarah, 2:217). Thus empowered, the Prophet (pbuh) accepted the offering and arranged a prisoner exchange.

Given that Islam considers fitnah (sedition) a greater crime than murder, Muslims have a right and a duty to fight it. The Qur'an, which declares that that there is no compulsion in religion (Surat al-Baqarah, 2:256, 190), also admonishes Muslims to fight in the way God against those who attack them. However, they should not commit any aggression, for God He �does not love the aggressor� (Surat al-Ikhlas, 112:1-3). Surat al-Baqarah 2:213, which was revealed after this incident, clearly defined jihad in the following terms: Muslims should fight those who try to turn other Muslims away from Islam and seek to prevent them from traveling on His Path. Thus, Islam considers war as the duty of defending freedom of thought and opinion. As a result, Islam regulates war by giving specific guidelines as to when it can be initiated and ended, as well as how it should be conducted.

Such concern stands in stark contrast to the Christian concept of war. Christian missionaries and Christians in general proclaim that their religion does not permit fighting. However, history tells a different story: From the dawn of Christianity until today, great violence has been unleashed throughout the world in the name of Jesus Christ. For example, Christian Europe launched the Crusades, and European Christians set out for the Middle East to fight and destroy, to maim and kill. The argument that these actions took place in medieval times, while Europe was in the Dark Ages, does not hold, for in 1918, after occupying Jerusalem, Lord Allenby declared that the Crusades were finally complete.

Dayem wrote:  Such concern stands in stark contrast to the Christian concept of war. Christian missionaries and Christians in general proclaim that their religion does not permit fighting. However, history tells a different story: From the dawn of Christianity until today, great violence has been unleashed throughout the world in the name of Jesus Christ. For example, Christian Europe launched the Crusades, and European Christians set out for the Middle East to fight and destroy, to maim and kill. The argument that these actions took place in medieval times, while Europe was in the Dark Ages, does not hold, for in 1918, after occupying Jerusalem, Lord Allenby declared that the Crusades were finally complete.

Christian military campaigns against the Muslim domination over, at first, Jerusalem and its holy places, and later the campaigns to win back Christian strongholds in the Middle East that were captured during the first crusade. The term "crusade" came to be used for Christian military actions also against non-Christian areas of Europe, but in this encyclopaedia only the first use of the term will be dealt with.
There were numerous crusades, of which 5 were started by the pope (most important is the first crusade), while others were started by European kings. The crusading period lasted for about 200 year, starting in 1095 and effectively ending in 1291 with the fall of the Latin Kingdom Jerusalem.

BACKGROUND FOR THE FIRST CRUSADE

The official reason for the crusades is also the most important reason: the aim of liberating Jerusalem from the http://i-cias.com/e.o/seljuqs.htm - Seljuq Turkish control, so that the holy places in the city could be protected and pilgrimage to them allowed.
The http://i-cias.com/e.o/seljuqs.htm - Seljuq rulers had taken control over Jerusalem in 1070, and they soon appeared as bad protector of Christian interests in the area. Holy places were des neglected, some http://i-cias.com/e.o/church.htm - churches were turned into non-religious buildings or mosques, and many pilgrims were not allowed into town, while others were stolen from, scorned at and sometimes even killed.
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