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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 March 2009 at 1:30pm
 Apollo,
yes, just like others I am waiting your reply to the issue I raised. One things is sure Apollo, you are not just going to have more knowledge about Islam, but about your own belief, thanks to your coming on this forum. 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 02 March 2009 at 1:33pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Apollos View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saladin Saladin wrote:

By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo?
Hasan


Looks like he has pole vaulted over it , like he has done over many other issues raised.   

 
Saladin,
 
I am not trying ignore any issues raised. With so many Muslims responding to my post it is possible I am missing a post. If you will be so kind as to restate any issues you believe I ignored, I will be happy to reply.
 
Apollos
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Saladin View Drop Down
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Points: 575 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2009 at 6:24am
By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo?
Hasan


Looks like he has pole vaulted over it , like he has done over many other issues raised.   

'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Apollos View Drop Down
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Hasan,
 
I think I have answered all of your questions. If I missed one please restate and I will reply.
 
Apollos
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2009 at 3:58am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

 Not to worry, at this rate he/she will soon disappear as there will be no one left that he/she will "interact" with.
 
Tongue
 
Quote
Personally I find it rather amusing, and it certainly hasn't stopped me from replying to some of the more outrageous posts in the hopes that others reading will benefit.
 
Ditto!!! Smile
 
Wa'salaam.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Apollos Apollos wrote:

I think we would all agree that there is a dramatic difference in the way women are viewed and treated in Islam versus Christianity.

 
Yes i do agree there's dramatic difference. Read this and look at what this verse from bible says.
 
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
 
St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said:
 
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."
 
St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:
 
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence
 
Qur'an no where downgrades a woman like above. Show me a single ayah of Qur'an which speaks like above.
  
 
QUESTION 2 - ARE MUSLIMS PROUD OF HOW WOMEN�S LIVES ARE UNDER ISLAMIC RULE?
 
Your topic is woman and Islam, not woman and muslims. You don't find islamic rule anywhere in the world. All of them are affected by west and there culture. This does n't mean women are downtrodden in Islam, They are enjoying there rights. You were discussing since few days with the muslimahs {muslim women} here. Did you find any muslimah being NOT PROUD as a muslim ?

 

The Bible tells us to expect hatred (enmity) between Satan and women and between Satan�s children and the �seed of the woman�, i.e. - the Messiah.

 

Gen 3:15  (God speaking to the Serpent/Satan): And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

 

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,

Rev 12:2  and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.

Rev 12:3  And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.

Rev 12:5  And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,

Rev 12:8  but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child .

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

 In genesis its something like this. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve, "The woman you put here with me --she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:

 
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
 
To Adam He said:
 
"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."
 
Bible blames a woman {eve} for the sin. and so has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women . All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile.
 
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
 
While Islam does n't blame Eve as temptress, or seducer. Infact both Adam and Eve committed a sin, they seeked forgiveness and were forgiven. We don't blame women in Islam for that sin at all.
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Points: 3352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2009 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Apollos Apollos wrote:

This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved.

Conversely, the countries with the most miserable conditions for women compared to the men happens to be in countries and areas that are dominated by Islamic beliefs and culture. Is there a political system, a religious system or a culture that exhibits more oppression on women than Islam? If there is I can�t think of it.

QUESTION 1 �DO YOU AGREE?

I think you need to answer this yourselfLOL

If giving birth to illegitimate( more than a third of all births in US) children is the improvement let it be your Christian pride ..Ref. Center for Disease Control and Prevention..TIME(3/2/09)
In my opinion the Christianity's acceptance of this crown  invalidates its legitimacy as a divine religion in it's current form......
If raising of a fatherless child is not an oppression than what it is?
In the meantime don't forget the spectacle  of OCTOMOMLOL
Originally posted by Apollos Apollos wrote:

QUESTION 2 - ARE MUSLIMS PROUD OF HOW WOMEN�S LIVES ARE UNDER ISLAMIC RULE?

 

Apollos


Your manufacturing of assumptions are utterly fallacious cuz here is the history in brief so stick with facts: A quick ref from wiki

Historical background

Suffrage parade, New York City, May 6, 1912

Until the mid-nineteenth century, writers assumed that a patriarchal order was a natural order that had existed[3] as John Stuart Mill wrote, since "the very earliest twilight of human society".[4] This was not seriously challenged until the eighteenth century when Jesuit missionaries found matrilineality in native North American peoples.[5]

In the Middle Ages, an early effort to improve the status of women in Islam occurred during the early reforms under Islam, when women were given greater rights in marriage, divorce and inheritance.[6] Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later.[7] The Oxford Dictionary of Islam states that the general improvement of the status of Arab women included prohibition of female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood.[8] "The dowry, previously regarded as a bride-price paid to the father, became a nuptial gift retained by the wife as part of her personal property."[9][6] Under Islamic law, marriage was no longer viewed as a "status" but rather as a "contract", in which the woman's consent was imperative.[9][6][8] "Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives."[6] Annemarie Schimmel states that "compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work."[10] According to Professor William Montgomery Watt, when seen in such historical context, Muhammad "can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women�s rights."[11]

Some have claimed that women generally had more legal rights under Islamic law than they did under Western legal systems until more recent times.[12] English Common Law transferred property held by a wife at the time of a marriage to her husband, which contrasted with the Sura: "Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much - a determinate share" (Quran 4:7), albeit maintaining that husbands were solely responsible for the maintenance and leadership of his wife and family.[12] "French married women, unlike their Muslim sisters, suffered from restrictions on their legal capacity which were removed only in 1965."[13]

Do we need to continue further?
If your argument is on the prevailing conditions in Muslim populated lands....  of course there is hardly an independent Islamic country across the neocolonial political spectrum ...if men are hardly free, or educated in Islamic law how can we judge the condition of their women?
You don't even want go into the old Christian European history to see the plight of the women...the witch burning and all ... Whatever so called freedoms for promiscuity and state of Gomorrah in the western world is the bi product of the Liberalism's onslaught on the society through secular academia and media....If you want to equate the Liberalism's fruits with Christianity's ....be my guest it is all yours and it is all going down the toilet...Look where does the west stands today on the brink of an abyss financially morally and you name it>........

Edited by Sign*Reader - 27 February 2009 at 4:11pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Hayfa,
You are really missing the point. Is that your strategy? I have wasted a lot of time answering questions and objections you make based on misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them?

 

I did not make a sweeping judgment about banning the Bible. The quote and context are repeated below:

 

I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is � Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government � in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a �Christian� country.

 

As you can see the point of the above was to show the distinction between Christians and so-called Christians. The latter have usually been governments who act contrary to the Bible. So you are objecting to a position of your own making. I agree with most of what you are saying. So what? You haven�t refuted what I have actually said on this point. And if you did � what is the point? To prove me wrong on at least one petty thing? I�m flattered.

 

I have already conceded that my observations � which are apparently broader than yours � are anecdotal and not justification for drawing the initial conclusions I did. I am not ready to accept your contention that Islam is a better situation for women but I am willing to leave the �debate� to the women it effects.

 

Apollos

 
Since Paul/Saul was responsible for much of the New Testament and his admonition to women regarding their status to men appears in his letters to the Corinthians, in the New Testament, I don't see how "early Christians" could have possibly been more enlightened in their treatment of women. Paul/Saul is about as "early" as they come.
 
It is amazing that you so easily dismiss the posts, and actually insult, the Muslim women who have responded to your post. Actions speak louder than words and your treatment of women has not done the Christian religion any favors.


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 26 February 2009 at 7:22pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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