Woman and Islam
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Topic: Woman and Islam
Posted By: Apollos
Subject: Woman and Islam
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 3:12pm
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I think we would all agree that there is a dramatic difference in the way women are viewed and treated in Islam versus Christianity. The Christian view emanates from passages like the below � Gal 3:26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 1Pe 5:5 Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all being subject to one another. Put on humility. For God resists proud ones, but He gives grace to the humble. This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved. Conversely, the countries with the most miserable conditions for women compared to the men happens to be in countries and areas that are dominated by Islamic beliefs and culture. Is there a political system, a religious system or a culture that exhibits more oppression on women than Islam? If there is I can�t think of it. QUESTION 1 �DO YOU AGREE? QUESTION 2 - ARE MUSLIMS PROUD OF HOW WOMEN�S LIVES ARE UNDER ISLAMIC RULE?
The Bible tells us to expect hatred (enmity) between Satan and women and between Satan�s children and the �seed of the woman�, i.e. - the Messiah. Gen 3:15 (God speaking to the Serpent/Satan): And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head, Rev 12:2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear. Rev 12:3 And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads! Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days. Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred, Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child . Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age. QUESTION 3 � HOW DID THE WRITERS KNOW THIS TYPE OF PERSECUTION OF WOMEN WOULD ARISE OR CONTINUE? QUESTION 4 � WHAT WORLD SYSTEM OR CULTURE COOPERATES MOST WITH THIS AGENDA THAT THE BIBLE ATTRIBUTES TO SATAN? Apollos |
Replies:
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 3:59am
Yes, there is a dramatic difference. Do we really want to go there?
 I think we are getting to the point now Apollos. . .
QUESTION 1 �DO YOU AGREE?
Gen 3:15 (God speaking to the Serpent/Satan): And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age. QUESTION 3 � HOW DID THE WRITERS KNOW THIS TYPE OF PERSECUTION OF WOMEN WOULD ARISE OR CONTINUE?
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Apollos wrote:
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 7:00am
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This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved. Chrysalis wrote:
Interesting point of view. However, it is interesting to note that the treatment of women under Christianity started to improve only after the christians advanced into other countries and cultures, and widened thier perspective. Until that point, saying that christian women were treated well, is incorrect, and somewhat laughable. The Church didnt even believe women had a soul! It took them ages to actually confirm the presence of a woman's soul. But lets not get into examples already.
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Please just take the years of Christianity prior to Mohammed and document your claim with specific facts. I'll give you a few to chew on: Infanticide that targeted females was universal in ancient Whereas Judaism prohibited infanticide by Jews, Christianity was converting pagans and instructing them that infanticide was immoral and murder. The Didache (90 -110 CE), an instruction manual for Christian converts, commanded "You shall not commit infanticide." Another early Christian document, the Epistle of Barnabas (130 CE), also explicitly condemned infanticide and by the end of the second century, Christians were not only proclaiming their rejection of abortion and infanticide, but had begun direct attacks on pagans, and especially pagan religions for sustaining such crimes. While Christianity was an illegal religion, persecuted by the same culture that murdered their own babies, it had little chance of enacting policies against infanticide. Finally, however, with the Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two measures that minimized infanticide. The Church continued to pressure Women�s rights in the known world were nearly non existent until Christians changed the culture and the laws. Women could not vote, make a contract, give testimony in a trial, have a say in marriage, the clothes they wore or any other aspect of life. It was legal and acceptable for a man to beat and even kill his wife for any reason. In When Christianity appeared women were attracted to it. Within the Christian sub-culture, women held a much higher status than did women throughout the Greco-Roman world. Women were recognized by Christianity as equal to men, children of God with the same supernatural destiny. The Christian prohibition of polygamy, divorce, birth control, abortion and infanticide contributed to the well-being of women substantially, securing them dignity and rights within both Church and state. One effect of this higher status was to increase the number of Christian women, which in turn led to a superior fertility rate for Christians, another factor in the growth of the faith. Christians influenced Constantine and later emperors to enact laws on behalf of women. These laws and attitudes were carried to other lands as Christianity grew. Apollos |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 12:05pm
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Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age.
i see you understand the root behind the:
THE WITCHES HAMMER [ a popular christain book published by the christain church.]
which justified THE BURNING YEARS when the christain church MURDERED SOME SAY AS MANY AS 500,000 WOMEN AND YOUNG GIRLS.{HOW MANY OTHER WOMEN WERE FALSLY CHARGED BY HUSBANDS SEEKING TO RID THEMSELVES OF AN UNWANTED WIFE SINCE DIVORCE WAS FORBIDEN}
FACT!! IN A TOWN IN GERMANY THE CHURCH BURNED 140 WOMEN AND GIRLS ONE AS YOUNG AS 7 YRS. OLD AT ONE TIME!!
ALSO MOST CHRISTAINS I GREWUP WITH HELD TO THESE TWO TEACHINGS
1 TIMOTHY
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women #fen-NIV-29716a - a ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-15;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29716a - a ] will be saved #fen-NIV-29716b - b ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-15;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29716b - b ] through childbearing�if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 CORN.
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
NOT ONLY DOES THIS TEACH TO OPPRESS WOMEN, BUT HOLD THE STIGMA OF BLAME OVER HER AS TO SIN. IT'S ALL HER FAULT.
FURTHER SHE IS ALSO DENIED THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE. TO READ FOR HERSELF THE WORD OF GOD.
PEACE
LELAND
P.S.
My brother-inlaws MODEL christain marrage is as follows:
A] she can work but he controls her money.
B] she has to " ask permition to go-out with friends.{only from the church}
C] she must wait for him to sit and eat before she can.
D] she must " speak in turn ".
F] on matters of faith it's not her place to say since all she needs to know comes from him.
G] I'M THE MAN YOU CAME FROM ME. THUS NOT BROUGHT FOURTH BY BREATH. SIMPLY A CREATION FROM ME FOR ME. { THIS LENDS TO THE BELIEF OF WOMAN NOT HAVING A SOUL.}
i'm upsetting myself.
peace
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 4:54pm
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58478&FID=10 - Chrysalis -the "church" may not have thought women had a soul, but Jesus did.
Literal:
The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
I tell you the majority of the verse in the Quran have been misintepreted, over and over again and put Islam in a pickle. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 22 February 2009 at 7:09am
I agree with you that during the Dark Ages even those who called themselves Christians were diabolical. (That's why this period is called the Dark Ages). And yes there are some current Christians of today who have unBiblical beliefs like your in-laws. (I'll be happy to give you passages to show your in-law if you like). But the basis for me calling these things wrong are the morals that have become part of the Western culture. I argue that the Bible has been instrumental in developing these morals and I think my historical examples support this - at least in the early years. But - let's say that since beginning of the Dark Ages, and even through now, Christianity has failed to live up to the equality that the Bible says should exist for women. Are you content with how Islam treats women? Are you trying to equate the two? I'm not thinking of how a woman is prohibited from being a priest or pastor in a Christian church but how Muslim women are beaten, deemed inferior under Sharia and overall treated as property. I raise this issue as a man but I think the ones who can answer this question best are Muslim women who have been able to see how life would be for them in the Western world - and what choice they would make if they had a choice.
Apollos
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 February 2009 at 9:48am
So you agree that somwhere down the line, Christianity changed and no longer retained its original content? i.e. what Jesus taught initially? Is this why you do not wish to discuss post Muhamamd Christianity?
I find a lot of your 'facts' rather vague and well, doubtful. Any references?
Women recognized by Christiany as equal to men? How so? Christianty didnt think women even had souls!!! (this is before Muhammad sw's time) And that woman was created to serve Man? They couldnt be ministers. . . or preachers. . . .or hold any important positions.
Btw, are references from the Bible relevant in this discussion?
How so? How do the above prohibitions contribute to the well bieng of a woman? I can put forward my views later.
How? In what way?
This seems more like a vague essay rather than facts. What does the superiour fertility rate of Christians have anything to do with 'elevation of women' ?
What laws? It would be helpful if you could be clearer.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 February 2009 at 10:20am
I see. Thankyou for clarifying that. So the Church was basically teaching things that Jesus never did? Do you agree?
You yourself agree that only 'some' say it condones abuse.
Incase you need a reaffirmation - no this verse does not 'command' abuse.
It tackles the issue of domestic violence, by dealing with it. Anger and Quarrels are a reality - and actions of both spouses fall into 2 categories, those that are an offence, and those that are not as serious. Allah tells the muslim husband, that incase of quarrels, before getting rash - he needs to take a number of steps to solve the issue: 1. admonish 2.dont share the bed - and if things get out of control - only beat lightly. Prophet Muhammad explained this by setting further limits, i.e cannot hit with anything bigger than a toothstick, cannot hit on face/sensitive parts, cannot leave a mark. (Also, the verse refers to disloyalty, which is often interpreted as fornication/adultery/openly unislamic acts. )
So basically, under Islamic Rule, which uses Qur'an and Sunnah to make laws - if a man hits his wife. . . unless he keeps within the above restrictions - he can be prosecuted for abuse, and the wife can be granted a divorce. (i.e if he hasnt taken concilatory steps as mentioned, or he hit her on the face/sensitive parts, or he left a mark, or he hit her with something bigger than a toothstick, or he had no significant reason, the strike wasnt 'light') This is what defines 'domestic abuse'.
Agreed.
Hmmm. So are we playing a 'blame game' here? I couldnt help but think that, since u quickly posted verses from the Quran in response to allegations against Christianity! If so, we could go on and on without any point. You dont have any input on what Apollos or what Nazarene said? You dont have anything to share on how Christianity 'elevates' women? Badmouthing Islam does not automatically give Christianity a point in the 'Women Rights' coloumn! You have to substantiate that with facts. . .
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 22 February 2009 at 1:08pm
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Chrysalis, I accept the idea that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually one. To the degree they don�t follow Jesus� commandments, they misrepresent Him and God. (That is what the 4th commandment is primarily about when it says not take God�s name in vain). So when I speak of Christianity in this forum I am using it in two contexts. One is doctrinally and on the essential doctrines there has been a consistency in Christianity from the beginning. The other context has to do with practice and I will agree with you that Christians have not nor do they follow Christian doctrines consistently. Jesus warned us about those who would claim to be His followers but not follow His commandments and He will reject them in the end. In the mean time it is the job of those who do take His commandments seriously to rebuke and reprove �Christians� to do what the Bible says. So, I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is � Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government � in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a �Christian� country. The summation of all this that I believe history supports the claim that the plight of women would be the same or worse as it had been if not for Biblical Christian influences on cultures and governments. If I am wrong my other challenge still stands: Islam treats women as inferior creatures and property of men. I have read the Quran and Hadith passages that support this view and I see it practiced in the world. How is this compatible with a just fair and merciful God? Why should people not suspect that Islam is a mere human invention that allows men to treat women immorally? Apollos |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 6:55am
Is this in response to me asking if you agreed the Church did not/does not teach what Jesus did?
What essential doctrines of Christianity elevate women. specifically? It would be nice if you could share with us some. You have not adderessed a lot of points that were raised.
On the contrary, when I go through the bible, I see a lot of supressive attitudes towards women. I try not to offend other ppl's beliefs, so if you like I could mention them. (1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.")
Pray give better/more substantial examples - e.g. referring them to your scripture and sources which say that they actually elevated women's status. Not your 'opinion'.
Really? How? When? By whom?
I thought you stressed before, that the early days of Christianity are the best example of Christianity (Before Islam). Back then, the common Christian was not even allowed to read the bible! They couldnt even read/understand the language! The bible was not made accessible to the common man until waaaaay later. Until that point, the Monks/Preachers/Church had hold over the bible. Infact, later when some modern Christians wished to translate the Bible - it was met with much hostility and scandal. If anyone has prevented the Bible from bieng read/understood by the common person, it was the Christians themselves.
The summation of all this that I believe history supports the claim that the plight of women would be the same or worse as it had been if not for Biblical Christian influences on cultures and governments. So say you. Please provide a reference/source for that. Women were not 'elevated' until yeeeeears later. . . and 'Christianity' as such did not have a role in it. Unlike Islam, Judaism etc, Christianity has always had a purely theological effect on its people . . .
Contrary to what you think - Muslims and Islamic Philosophy were significantly responsible for bringing the West out of thier Dark Ages. (via Spain, Sicily, Naples) One of the people responsible for translating Muslim works and bringing them to Christian Europe was "theologian Raymond who was the Archbishop of Toledo from 1130 to 1150 AD. This is just one example. Such muslim works are responsible for shaping Christian thoughts and attitudes towards various subjects, including sciences, humanities, culture, arts etc."
"Farabi exercised a great influence on the philosophy of the Middle Ages; his book Isha� al-�Ulum was translated into Latin and was established in Christian schools, just as it had been in Islamic schools, as an indispensable reference. Many thinkers made use of this work, such as Roger Bacon (1214-1280 AD), Jerome of Moravia (the first half of the 13th century), Raymond Lull (1235-1315 AD) and many others. "
There are various other examples.
This is probably due to a lack of Islamic understanding. How are women treated as inferior creatures?
On the contrary, this is what Islam has to say:
"If any do deeds of righteousness be they male or female and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them. (The Noble Quran, 4:124)"
"For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward. (The Noble Quran, 33:35)"
As for your statement "allowing men to treat women immorally" , and how women are 'treated as property' . . . Alhamdulilah, He (Allah) is very direct on that:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 9:53am
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From Chrysalis: What essential doctrines of Christianity elevate women. specifically? It would be nice if you could share with us some. You have not adderessed a lot of points that were raised. On the contrary, when I go through the bible, I see a lot of supressive attitudes towards women. I try not to offend other ppl's beliefs, so if you like I could mention them. (1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.") From Apollos: I provided some examples in the original post on this topic. Please look there. The other passages you refer to concern order and submission in the Church. The same person (Paul) you quote for �suppressive� statements is the one who said women are equal to men; the same guy who called specific women his fellow workers. You are confusing submission with inferiority. The New Testament tells us that Jesus submitted Himself to His earthly parents but He was not inferior to them. Christians are told to submit themselves to authorities because of order not inferiority. The reason Paul had to make the statements you refer to is because Christian women were so comfortable in their equal status that some were ignoring the order of authority in the Church. From Apollos: Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. From Chrysalis: Really? How? When? By whom? From Apollos: You answer this question yourself further down. During the Dark Ages, by those calling themselves Christian leaders but actually Vasal rulers of the Government. From Apollos: Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government � in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a �Christian� country. From Chrysalis: I thought you stressed before, that the early days of Christianity are the best example of Christianity (Before Islam). Back then, the common Christian was not even allowed to read the bible! They couldnt even read/understand the language! The bible was not made accessible to the common man until waaaaay later. Until that point, the Monks/Preachers/Church had hold over the bible. Infact, later when some modern Christians wished to translate the Bible - it was met with much hostility and scandal. If anyone has prevented the Bible from bieng read/understood by the common person, it was the Christians themselves. From Apollos: You are correct on all this but your timing is off. This was not the From Chrysalis: [in Islam] How are women treated as inferior creatures? From Apollos: Lets just focus on one example � Sharia law. Please let me know if I am wrong on any of this or if you simply think it is equal treatment for women: A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law or in matters of inheritance. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. In many Islamic countries a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man whereas Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women. There are many more but please address these. Apollos |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 11:42am
I did read your original post on the topic, You did not give any evidence from scriptures or any references, you just wrote an essay on what you thought and percieved to be the case. So you dont have any evidence from scriptures/other sources, thats oK, I shall not insist further. However, until you do post some references, no point in telling us what you think.
So Paul basically made up something and said it, which Jesus did not. Who is Paul to ask women to keep quiet in Church and be ' submissive' ? Basically this verse is telling us that women are not allowed to be 'active' church members, and should only attend if they 'remain silent'. The underlined part of yours is kind of baseless and ridiculous.
The bible verse clearly states that women cannot teach men, and should keep quiet when dealing with a man, in very clear words.
And since you started the comparision, lets see what the Islamic practise is - in clear contrast:
Women can be teachers, and scholars. They can even teach men, something the Bible says Christian Women should not do. Thus Muslim Women can even hold certain positions of authority, e.g Teacher-Student, Scholar etc. (which Christian women are not supposed to)
Prophet Muhammad's wife Aisha (R.A) taught religion, to men as well, older then her. Another wife of his, Khadija (R.A) was a business woman. Muslim Women spoke in Masjids (Mosqes) actively engaging in discussions, asking questions. . . during Prophet Muhammad's time and later. They even had the right to stand up and question a Caliph. (Umar R.A and the old woman)
Muslim women participated in battles, and not only for medical-aid, some even fought battles. DURING PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S TIME.
Here is a list of Female Muslim Scholars, perhaps you can in good time share a list of female christian scholars:
" Hafsa, the daughter of Ibn Sirin,5 Umm al-Darda the Younger (d.81/700), and 'Amra bin 'Abd al-Rahman, are only a few of the key women traditionists of this period. Umm al-Darda' was held by Iyas ibn Mu'awiya, an important traditionist of the time and a judge of undisputed ability and merit, to be superior to all the other traditionists of the period, including the celebrated masters of hadith like al-Hasan al-Basri and Ibn Sirin.6 (note: muslim female scholars have held superiority over male scholars at times.) 'Amra was considered a great authority on traditions related by A'isha. Among her students, Abu Bakr ibn Hazm, (note: Ibn Hazm, the renowned scholar was the student of a female scholar) the celebrated judge of Medina, was ordered by the caliph Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz to write down all the traditions known on her authority.7
After them, 'Abida al-Madaniyya, 'Abda bin Bishr, Umm Umar al-Thaqafiyya, Zaynab the granddaughter of Ali ibn Abd Allah ibn Abbas, Nafisa bint al-Hasan ibn Ziyad, Khadija Umm Muhammad, 'Abda bint Abd al-Rahman, and many other members of the fair sex excelled in delivering public lectures on hadith. These devout women came from the most diverse backgrounds, indicating that neither class nor gender were obstacles to rising through the ranks of Islamic scholarship.
Zaynab bint Sulayman (d. 142/759), by contrast, was princess by birth. Her father was a cousin of al-Saffah, the founder of the Abbasid dynasty, and had been a governor of Basra, Oman and Bahrayn during the caliphate of al-Mansur.9 Zaynab, who received a fine education, acquired a mastery of hadith, gained a reputation as one of the most distinguished women traditionists of the time, and counted many important men among her pupils
In the fourth century, we find Fatima bint Abd al-Rahman (d. 312/924), known as al-Sufiyya on account of her great piety; Fatima (granddaughter of Abu Daud of Sunan fame); Amat al-Wahid (d. 377/987), the daughter of distinguished jurist al-Muhamili; Umm al-Fath Amat as-Salam (d. 390/999), the daughter of the judge Abu Bakr Ahmad (d.350/961); Jumua bint Ahmad, and many other women, whose classes were always attended by reverential audiences
The Islamic tradition of female hadith scholarship continued in the fifth and sixth centuries of hijra. Fatima bin al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn al-Daqqaq al-Qushayri, was celebrated not only for her piety and her mastery of calligraphy, but also for her knowledge of hadith and the quality of the isnads she knew.12 Even more distinguished was Karima al-Marwaziyya (d.463/1070), who was considered the best authority on the Sahih of al-Bukhari in her own time. Abu Dharr of Herat, one of the leading scholars of the period, attached such great importance to her authority that he advised his students to study the Sahih under no one else, because of the quality of her scholarship. She thus figures as a central point in the transmission of this seminal text of Islam.13 As a matter of fact, writes Godziher, 'her name occurs with extraordinary frequency of the ijazas for narrating the text of this book.'14 Among her students were al-Khatib al-Baghdadi15 and al-Humaydi (male students)
Among these, one might mention in particular Fatima bint Muhammad (d.539/1144; Shuhda 'the Writer' (d.574/1178), and Sitt al-Wuzara bint Umar (d.716/1316).18 Fatima narrated the book on the authority of the great traditionist Said al-Ayyar; she received from the hadith specialists the proud tittle of Musnida Isfahan (the great hadith authority of Isfahan).
I think you got the point, I shall stop here. . . But for the record, there are numerous more names of prominent female scholars in Islam. How fortunate for us Muslims that our women were not asked to 'keep quiet' and 'not teach men'. . . . Feels good to be a muslim woman.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 12:27pm
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Really? How? When? By whom? You answer this question yourself further down. During the Dark Ages, by those calling themselves Christian leaders but actually Vasal rulers of the Government. I already know of the great atrocities committed in Christendom, by Christians. But what current governments today ban the bible?
Lets just focus on one example � Sharia law. Please let me know if I am wrong on any of this or if you simply think it is equal treatment for women: Since you have not commented on any of the Qur'anic verses I mentioned that talk of your supposed notion of 'inferiority' . . . I assumed that it cleared your misconception of how Islam treats women. . . however, it seems that it still has not. Did you skip over the Quranic Verses? Something tells me that facts/reality doesnt really matter for you (since you never post any yourself), but okay, lets play along, for the reader's sake.
A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law
It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur�an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur�an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur�an and deals with financial transactions. It says:
"Oh! ye who believe! This verse of the Qur�an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice. Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur�an is �Tazil� which means �confused� or �to err�. Many have wrongly translated this word as �to forget�. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur�an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman. While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur�an says: "Oh you who believe! two just persons of your own (brotherhood) Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq. There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur�an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness: "And those who launch a charge Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women. Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. �ghusl� to a woman, the witness has to be a woman. The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam. (Islamic Resource Foundation)
Bible, Female Witnesses and Law:
Since you brought up the comparision yourself, in your orginal post - and continue to do so..... despite not wanting to initially - I feel it is relevant to quote what the Bible has to say about female witnesses. Unlike in Islam - where in cases of alleged adultery, both man and wife have an equal footing and the woman's word/witness that she did not commit adultery is adequate in the Islamic court of law. Whereas, in the bible, a woman accused of adultery is guilty until proven innocent - and her word does not matter: Numbers 5:11-31
Under Islamic Law, a muslim female has the right to make an oath and stand by it - whereas in the bible, the father or the husband has the right to break her oath:
Numbers 30: 4-8,16
4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. 8 : But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.
As far as the testimony of Christian women is concerned:
John Gill says in his commentary...
Then both the men between whom the controversy is,.... The man that bears the false witness, and the man against whom it is borne:
Since we are on the subject, please share Bible Verses that give inheritance rights to women.
Atleast Islam gives woman the right to inheritance! Unlike Christianity, so really, Muslim Women are better off than Christian Women in financial matters. Also, this claim is strange coming from a member of a faith that did not have inheritance until recently, and even if Christian women did end up getting thier inheritance, it was in control of thier male guardian - unlike Islam. Here is the answer to your query:
The Glorious Qur�an contains specific and detailed guidance regarding the division of the inherited wealth, among the rightful beneficiaries.
The Qur�anic verses that contain guidance regarding inheritance are:
There are three verses in the Qur�an that broadly describe the share of close relatives i.e. Surah Nisah chapter 4 verses 11, 12 and 176. The translation of these verses are as follows: "Allah (swt) (thus) directs you as regards your children�s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females, if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; If only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; If no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. In what your wives leave, your share is half. If they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eight; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to anyone). Thus it is ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing Most Forbearing" "They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (them) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If (such a deceased was) a woman who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance. If there are two sisters, they shall have two thirds of the inheritance (between them). If there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah (swt) makes clear to you (His knowledge of all things). In most of the cases, a woman inherits half of what her male counterpart inherits. However, this is not always the case. In case the deceased has left no ascendant or descendent but has left the uterine brother and sister, each of the two inherit one sixth. If the deceased has left children, both the parents that is mother and father get an equal share and inherit one sixth each. In certain cases, a woman can also inherit a share that is double that of the male. If the deceased is a woman who has left no children, brothers or sisters and is survived only by her husband, mother and father, the husband inherits half the property while the mother inherits one third and the father the remaining one sixth. In this particular case, the mother inherits a share that is double that of the father. It is true that as a general rule, in most cases, the female inherits a share that is half that of the male. For instance in the following cases:
In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family. In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance. For example, if a man dies leaving about Rs. One Hundred and Fifty Thousand, for the children (i.e one son and one daughter) the son inherits One Hundred Thousand rupees and the daughter only Fifty Thousand rupees. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself.
On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself. Would you prefer inheriting one hundred thousand rupees and spending eighty thousand from it, or inheriting fifty thousand rupees and having the entire amount to yourself ? ? ? (Islamic Resource Foundation) PS: Will post answers to the rest of your questions later, as you would naturally require some time to read and digest the above. As you can see, each question takes up quite some space/indepth discussion. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 2:48pm
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And i would also argue that the right of divorce, right to vote etc.. has alot to do with the loss of power by the Catholic Church and the rise of humanism and secularism. And really I do think 'Christianity' as it has become did little to elevate the status of women. What Jesus said really did not come into play. And funnily you ask about Shariah.. I know plenty of Muslim women who want real Shariah law in their countries.. they WANT those rights.. big time. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 2:56pm
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/cfe_bibl.htm - http://www.religioustolerance.org/cfe_bibl.htm
Jesus brought radical change to the way women were treated.
1 Corinthians 7
3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Most important-
Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 4:35pm
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The Muslims here have informed me of some Islamic statements I was not aware of and to the degree I assumed the Quran supported the poor conditions for Muslim women, I stand corrected.
On the other hand, I find much of the debate here to be academic. Like people who argue that America is hated by the world all the while there are tens of millions of people trying to go there. My observations about the condition of Muslim women is derived from traveling in the Middle East and the United States, listening to women who have left Islamic countries and listening to Muslim men talk about women. All of this leads me to the conclusion that very few women choose Islam on their own. On the other hand, the majority of Christians and Church attendees are women and this can be proved objectively. I can't prove my suspcicions about what Muslim women would choose if they could. Can you?
Apollos
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 6:35pm
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Apollo, I have a question for you, what rights a woman has against an abusive husband. And what is the status of divorce in Chrsitianity. I need refrances from the Bible with your reply. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 February 2009 at 6:32am
I see. So the Bible asks husbands to fulfill thier marital duty to the wife. That is good. . . . but very generic wouldnt you say? How is that a "radical " change? Also, I would think this verse is talking of physical relations, no? (marital duty, body etc) When you said there was a "radical" change, I expected something out of the ordinary and life-changing . . . . e.g. banning age-old practises of female infanticide, giving women inheritance rights, divorce rights, financial rights, giving women freedom of expression/opinions, the right to give and get education etc
Also nice. . . but considering that 'love' b/w spouses is an age old concept - which the bible simply re-stated does not count as a radical change.
Also, I find it kind of contradictory and strange, especially since Paul said bachelorhood is to be preferred and marriage is not reccommended in Christianity. The Pious people of Christianity are not supposed to get married??? Which is why Bishops and Popes and men of the cloth had to 'hide' thier wives/mistresses and keep them a secret.
I'm afraid its still a far cry from the detail Islam went into when it comes to female-rights, not only preaching, but practising.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 February 2009 at 6:57am
Where did you listen to such women? On the media? Women who 'left' Islam, so they could publish a pathetic life-story, fool the Islamophobes, cash in, and get a few minutes of fame? And which men? the 'scholars' that people love posting about on you-tube? Obviousley women who have 'left "islamic" counrtries ' to settle in the USA have an agenda? Political Asylum? (Dont get me started on that!
 )If you yourself met such people, (which I somewhat doubt, considering your anti-islam opinions) they must have been a minority. . . . or are you telling as that all muslims or a majority that you have met have hated Islam? Anyway, I am glad you decided to get the real picture. That was a nice initiative by you, and is to be respected.
And I'm sorry if I am nit-picking, but while travelling the Middle East, how much of a glimpse did you really have, in the lives of Muslim Women? Maybe it was how you interpreted what you saw (e.g. looking at a Burqa/Niqab/Hijab-clad woman perhaps you thought she was supressed?)
Surprisingly, the percentage of female converts to Islam is higher than that of male muslim converts! Interesting, no? Just go to the homepage of Islamicity or anyother muslim website that runs the names of recent converts on thier homepage - half or more are women. Here at Islamicity forum, we have more female muslim converts here, then men. Hayfa who posted here is one of them.
What about all the Muslim Women who choose to follow Islam, and love it and cannot stand critisicm against it? Dont they count? These women are of a higher count than any anti-islam 'muslim' woman.
I am sure that its true that there are more female christian attendees at Chruch. I also have met Christian women online, who have blasted Islam's treatment of women, but when they were given Bible verses that talk of women - flat out refused to believe them, or simply said they dont stand anymore/ we dont have to follow them. All these Christian women have strong faith, and love Jesus - I agree. . . but they hardly follow/agree with the scripture. Saying that they attend Church is not an 'objective' reason. These women are Christian, because they love Jesus, and God, want Salvation . . . not because Christianity 'elevates' thier status as women, because I have yet to be given examples of how. (I am not talking about generic examples etc).
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 24 February 2009 at 7:49pm
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Chrysalis, When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I�m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let�s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you. From Apollos: Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. You answer this question yourself further down. During the Dark Ages, by those calling themselves Christian leaders but actually Vasal rulers of the Government. Your implication is that I am wrong and that you will concede that I am correct if I provide details. Will you? Here are a few examples of current governments who ban the Bible as much as possible. The From Chrysalis to Apollos: I did read your original post on the topic, You did not give any evidence from scriptures or any references, you just wrote an essay on what you thought and percieved to be the case. So you dont have any evidence from scriptures/other sources, thats oK, I shall not insist further. However, until you do post some references, no point in telling us what you think. Since you have not commented on any of the Qur'anic verses I mentioned that talk of your supposed notion of 'inferiority' . . . I assumed that it cleared your misconception of how Islam treats women. . . however, it seems that it still has not. Did you skip over the Quranic Verses? Something tells me that facts/reality doesnt really matter for you (since you never post any yourself), but okay, lets play along, for the reader's sake. From Apollos: I am re-posting the comments I made in response to the verses you posted and the original Scripture references I posted. You are welcome to disagree with what I posted previously but you are lying when you say I never post facts, �evidence from Scripture�, that I did not comment on the Quranic verses you posted, etc. Please let me know if you were just mistaken or you want to persist in your claims above. Posted by Apollos on 2/23/09: The Muslims here have informed me of some Islamic statements I was not aware of and to the degree I assumed the Quran supported the poor conditions for Muslim women, I stand corrected. Original post by Apollos: The Christian view emanates from passages like the below � Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Apollos |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 6:23am
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Apollo,
Assuming you have traveled in the Middle East, how many women have did you really talk to? There is a strong segregation of the sexes.. depending upon the city, town or place..
Women are not required to attend a mosque so the "numbers" would not be in any way accurate of comparison. I do not go to the masjid. I am not asked to go except on one or two days of the year.. and that is if I can go.
When I was born my parents "chose" for me to be raised a Catholic. All parents install whatever values they want in their children. Its like I met Buddhists in Thailand who were raised Buddhist by their parents. Met plenty of Catholics raised by their parents as Catholic. So to say 'women do not choose Islam" is sort of silly would you not agree?
Its like the man who goes to Church and beats his wife, of course he is not following what Jesus taught. This is the same for a Muslim man. So to me its all the same aspect. People abuse other people. We have hunger and poverty, cruelty and violence EVERYWHERE.
Having actually MET many women in Pakistan the issue is not religion, it is often poverty that negatively affects women and children. I think this is true globally, whether in Pakistan, South Africa, the US or Haiti. I would also add war to this as well.
I would say that the challenge for Muslims is to emulate the Prophet.. he was such an amazing man. Its the same for Christians to emulate Jesus.. very hard to do! Both in actions, thoughts and deeds. I think you would agree, eh?
I have friends from all walks of life and really the concerns are pretty similiar:
1. Do I have a good relationship with my husband? Is he kind, patient, a good provider for the children?
2. Do I have a place to live and security?
3. Do I get along with my family (my mom is driving me crazy..lol)
4. Is my job interesting and pleasant?
5. What will I do on my day off? (Is there really a day off for any mothers??)
Its like Apollo, when I was in Thailand and volunteered at a place for abused elephants.. and to see the horrible cruelty exhibited by people to these beautiful creatures.. it hwas unfathomable.. It is NOT part of Buddhism whatsoever. And yet the acts were committed by 'Buddhists.'
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:08am
It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to.
Saudia Arabia is the only country, that actually 'bans' Bibles as such (it bans the propogation of bible, christians are allowed to own them and read/practise it)
But China??? China is a communist state, that controls just about everything . . . so it may have a problem with bringing 'suitcase' fulls of it in. They control/limit all sorts of literary material btw. . . not just bibles. BUT for the sake of the argument, lets agree that china bans bibles.
USA ? ? ? Now this is quite a ridiculous statement. The USA does not 'ban' the bible!!! So they dont use it in courtrooms for reaching a decision! big deal!!! Thats because they do not use any religous texts to come to a decision! (maybe because the accuracy is controversial?) How does that mean USA bans the bible??? USA is home to some of the most fundamental christians around! you have teleevangelists, etc what not. You are now making things up. You have 3 silly reasons to support the statement that the Bible is banned in the USA!!!!
When I went to the USA, I stayed in 4 different hotels. . . all had a copy of the bible in the room!!!! There are institutions that will mail you a free bible - wherever you are in the USA! I as a muslim, sitting at the corner of the world know that, I'm surprised you dont.
Saudia Arabia is so far the only example which is true. . . . and I am willing to accept China. . . but USA? 2 countries that 'ban' the bible hardly means that current govts today are trying to ban it as much as possible. Its like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and imagining a scenario that doesnt even exist.
It would be wrong to say that you posted "no" references. . . . I should rephrase it to say that you did not post adequate references to support the claim that the 'Bible elevates women'. Infact, the ones above hardly support your point. Remember, you claimed that Christianity is responsible for the status today's women enjoy:
I expect you to back it up legally, financially, socially, politically.
Only 2 verses above actually refer to women. . . and they are 'generic' verses. 'women are good/equal' . . . very well, how? Tell me what legal, financial, political rights the bible gives women?
In today's time, you cannot say the bible says women are equal, when they dont enjoy the same rights as men. . . . . you need to substantiate it.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:36am
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And China bans religion period.. or they did. They murdered thousands of Buddhist monks.. they oppress the Muslim Chinese people-predominantly the Ughars or western China..
I don't think they are fond of any religion...eh
And I can certainly bring a Bible to school. Do we read from it etc. No. But nothing prohibits me from reading a Bible, The Quran or any other religious text..
In fact there is more protest in places like the south for even learning about the Quran on college campuses.. One college in North CArolina wanted to use texts from it as a general introduction to thoughts and ideas for new students and the parents protested so much the college took it out!
My father who worked for Catholic Relief Services for all of Asia lived a couple of years in Pakistan. The Bible was not banned. There were certainly Catholics there..
With the exception of Saudi Arabia there is no outright ban. Every country may have restruictions about what you can and cannot do in regards to religion in general or other faiths that are not dominant.
In fact the very good Muslim family I know in Karachi had a copy of the Bible in their house. So making sweeping judgements is not accurate. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 7:42pm
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From Apollos:
Chrysalis,
When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I�m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let�s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you. From Chrysalis:
It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to.
It would be wrong to say that you posted "no" references. . . . I should rephrase it to say that you did not post adequate references to support the claim that the 'Bible elevates women'. Infact, the ones above hardly support your point. Remember, you claimed that Christianity is responsible for the status today's women enjoy:
From Apollos:
Chrysalis,
Though I can see it is a half-hearted admission on your part, I appreciate you admitting your error. This is one of the statements I was referring to.
What about the concession I made in responding to your quotations of Quranic verses - that you claimed I ignored? Would you like to correct yourself on that accusation as well?
Apollos
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Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:37pm
Hayfa,
You are really missing the point. Is that your strategy? I have wasted a lot of time answering questions and objections you make based on misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them?
I did not make a sweeping judgment about banning the Bible. The quote and context are repeated below: I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is � Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government � in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a �Christian� country. As you can see the point of the above was to show the distinction between Christians and so-called Christians. The latter have usually been governments who act contrary to the Bible. So you are objecting to a position of your own making. I agree with most of what you are saying. So what? You haven�t refuted what I have actually said on this point. And if you did � what is the point? To prove me wrong on at least one petty thing? I�m flattered. I have already conceded that my observations � which are apparently broader than yours � are anecdotal and not justification for drawing the initial conclusions I did. I am not ready to accept your contention that Islam is a better situation for women but I am willing to leave the �debate� to the women it effects. Apollos |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:51pm
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From Apollos: Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Your implication is that I am wrong and that you will concede that I am correct if I provide details. Will you? Here are a few examples of current governments who ban the Bible as much as possible. The From Chrysalis:
Saudia Arabia is the only country, that actually 'bans' Bibles as such (it bans the propogation of bible, christians are allowed to own them and read/practise it)
But China??? China is a communist state, that controls just about everything . . . so it may have a problem with bringing 'suitcase' fulls of it in. They control/limit all sorts of literary material btw. . . not just bibles. BUT for the sake of the argument, lets agree that china bans bibles.
USA ? ? ? Now this is quite a ridiculous statement. The USA does not 'ban' the bible!!! So they dont use it in courtrooms for reaching a decision! big deal!!! Thats because they do not use any religous texts to come to a decision! (maybe because the accuracy is controversial?) How does that mean USA bans the bible??? USA is home to some of the most fundamental christians around! you have teleevangelists, etc what not. You are now making things up. You have 3 silly reasons to support the statement that the Bible is banned in the USA!!!!
When I went to the USA, I stayed in 4 different hotels. . . all had a copy of the bible in the room!!!! There are institutions that will mail you a free bible - wherever you are in the USA! I as a muslim, sitting at the corner of the world know that, I'm surprised you dont.
Saudia Arabia is so far the only example which is true. . . . and I am willing to accept China. . . but USA? 2 countries that 'ban' the bible hardly means that current govts today are trying to ban it as much as possible. Its like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and imagining a scenario that doesnt even exist.
****************
Chrysalis,
Is this a big game to you? I have wasted a lot of time correcting your misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them?
Even when you agree with my facts, you try to make it appear that you have corrected me. And the crazy thing is - I have already conceded a significant point to the Muslims here and you don't seem to care. What is your agenda? Mine is clear and stated many times. I want to understand what Muslims believe and why. I will press and probe to make sure we are communicating and I am not missing something. I will explain what I believe and why and at times I have admitted to learning something new. If you simply want to argue for argument sake, please find someone else to play with.
Apollos |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:00am
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Apollo,
Please do not tell me that I did not 'read carfefully' what you wrote. First I can post comments on any aspect you write. I don't have to 'debate' anyone. That is not my point. I have my perspective and you have yours.. and then you tell Chrysallis that she should not 'argue for argue sakes.'
It is not about 'refuting' petty points. They may seem 'petty' to you. I have never commented or made judgements upon what you have written- by calling what you write 'petty.' We are just sharing what each of us know.
And I would disagree with you that your observations are any more 'broader' than mine or anyone elses here. Considering that I have probably met far more Muslim women then you have and respect their values and goals in life (even before I became a Muslim) I don't think you are more "worldly' than I.
And I would say I have far more of an open mind towards other religions than maybe you have. I don't sit and blame Christianity for the murders and rapes of many women in Guatemala. I have traveled in "Christian,' Buddhist, and Muslim countires. And the title of your post is "Women and Islam." And I would disgree that women suffer more in Muslim countries than other countries. And I would disagree actually that religion is the root cause of the issues that women face.
I am not 'debating' you or 'nitpicking'. Just stating my opinion. And its just as valid as anyone elses. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:56am
Seems like you just contradicted yourself in the same post. Of course I took partial statements and took you out of context but who cares right? After all - "I can post comments on any aspect you write. I don't have to 'debate' anyone." Correct?
Apollos
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Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 1:50pm
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Apollos,
Seemingly, you're here with a load of presumptions and queries, wanting to hear what you want to hear rather than the facts and when you dont get what you want, you get more presumptuous. Net result - 'waste of your time and importantly other people's time'. I'll give a tip - 'When you want to learn something, first learn to heed and then judge or deduce. After that you can diffuse your dandies to us illogical lot and enlighten us with your super logic. Btw, I see you got antsy with the sisters and accused them of lying, disingenuity and dismissed their honest replies with a sense of uppitiness. I'm wondering if this is how your belief teaches you to behave towards ladies or anyone not holding your belief. Aint right? ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:45pm
|
Apollo,
with all respect I have a feeling that you are not serious nor sincere about anything, you have a purpose in mind, and that seems to decieve others.
Let me be clear, God gave equal rights to both Adam and Eve and their generations. The guidance that came though his messangers throughout the human age came from God. And the last guidance came from God to humanity through Quran and prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
What God gave to Jesus or Moses (pbut) was also from God, only we don't have it in its original form and that's why God sent Quran.
You are motivated with wrong ideas, to come up even with this topic and braging about that yours is better thatn mine is childish. Unless your purpose is to spread falsehood and confusion. A man of God does not do that.
God gave equal rights to both and different roles and duties. Made one stonger than the other for a purpose. Women's rights are violated by man everywhere. Those who are bound to do so don't have boundries, I know not a place regardless of any boundries that is amuned from such behavior, whether be from the West, East, North or South.
You don't have to take a man's word, there are many women right here in the West that were not born or raised in Islam, and they now live by Islam and they talk of the respect and rights God gave them through Islam.
They did not know that in fact it was not them (woman) as they were told through the Bible esponsible for the fall of Adam, and that there childbirth pain was not a punishment as mentioned in the Bible.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." They say that through Islam they know that both Adam and Eve were responsible for their disobidience and thus were taken out of the Paradise together. They also learn that God, the Mercyful accepted their plea and forgave them, and there was nothing like original sin.
You got to be kidding and seems to be confused between ever changing Western values with Christian values. By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo?
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:50pm
|
Apollo,
with all respect I have a feeling that you are not serious nor sincere about anything, you have a purpose in mind, and that seems to decieve others.
Let me be clear, God gave equal rights to both Adam and Eve and their generations. The guidance that came though his messangers throughout the human age came from God. And the last guidance came from God to humanity through Quran and prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
What God gave to Jesus or Moses (pbut) was also from God, only we don't have it in its original form and that's why God sent Quran.
You are motivated with wrong ideas, to come up even with this topic and braging about that yours is better than mine is childish. Unless your purpose is to spread falsehood and confusion. A man of God does not do that.
God gave equal rights to both and different roles and duties. Made one stonger than the other for a purpose. Women's rights are violated by man everywhere. Those who are bound to do so don't have boundries, nor any beleif and it has nothing to do if you are this or that. I know not a place regardless of any boundries that is amuned from such behavior, whether be from the West, East, North or South.
You don't have to take a man's word, there are many women right here in the West that were not born or raised in Islam, and they now live by Islam and they talk of the respect and rights God gave them through Islam.
They did not know that in fact it was not them (woman) as they were told through the Bible responsible for the fall of Adam, and that their childbirth pain was not a punishment as mentioned in the Bible.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." They say that through Islam they know that both Adam and Eve were responsible for their disobidience and thus were taken out of the Paradise together. They also learn that God, the Mercyful accepted their plea and forgave them, and there was nothing like original sinnor were woman to blame for the fall of Adam.
You got to be kidding and seems to be confused between ever changing Western values with Christian values. By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo?
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 7:04pm
It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to.
[Quote]
Sister,
This person has accused me of lying also and will not respond to my posts. The only reason for doing so is that you answer his/her posts with intelligence and proof that is beyond refutation. If he/she cannot disprove what you have said he/she accuses you of wrong doing and refuses to answer you. Not to worry, at this rate he/she will soon disappear as there will be no one left that he/she will "interact" with.
Personally I find it rather amusing, and it certainly hasn't stopped me from replying to some of the more outrageous posts in the hopes that others reading will benefit.
Salaams
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 7:21pm
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Hayfa,
You are really missing the point. Is that your strategy? I have wasted a lot of time answering questions and objections you make based on misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them?
I did not make a sweeping judgment about banning the Bible. The quote and context are repeated below: I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is � Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government � in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a �Christian� country. As you can see the point of the above was to show the distinction between Christians and so-called Christians. The latter have usually been governments who act contrary to the Bible. So you are objecting to a position of your own making. I agree with most of what you are saying. So what? You haven�t refuted what I have actually said on this point. And if you did � what is the point? To prove me wrong on at least one petty thing? I�m flattered. I have already conceded that my observations � which are apparently broader than yours � are anecdotal and not justification for drawing the initial conclusions I did. I am not ready to accept your contention that Islam is a better situation for women but I am willing to leave the �debate� to the women it effects. Apollos Since Paul/Saul was responsible for much of the New Testament and his admonition to women regarding their status to men appears in his letters to the Corinthians, in the New Testament, I don't see how "early Christians" could have possibly been more enlightened in their treatment of women. Paul/Saul is about as "early" as they come.
It is amazing that you so easily dismiss the posts, and actually insult, the Muslim women who have responded to your post. Actions speak louder than words and your treatment of women has not done the Christian religion any favors. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 7:30pm
I think you need to answer this yourself In my opinion the Christianity's acceptance of this crown invalidates its legitimacy as a divine religion in it's current form...... If raising of a fatherless child is not an oppression than what it is? In the meantime don't forget the spectacle of OCTOMOM 
Your manufacturing of assumptions are utterly fallacious cuz here is the history in brief so stick with facts: A quick ref from wiki Historical background http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suffrage_parade-New_York_City-May_6_1912.jpg">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suffrage_parade-New_York_City-May_6_1912.jpg">
Suffrage parade, New York City, May 6, 1912 Until the mid-nineteenth century, writers assumed that a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy - patriarchal order was a natural order that had existed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Maine-2 - [3] as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill - John Stuart Mill wrote, since "the very earliest twilight of human society". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-mill-3 - [4] This was not seriously challenged until the eighteenth century when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit - Jesuit missionaries found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality - matrilineality in native North American peoples. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-4 - [5] In the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages - Middle Ages , an early effort to improve the status of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam - women in Islam occurred during the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_reforms_under_Islam - early reforms under Islam , when women were given greater rights in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage - marriage , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce - divorce and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_inheritance_jurisprudence - inheritance . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Espos-5 - [6] Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-6 - [7] The Oxford Dictionary of Islam states that the general improvement of the status of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - Arab women included prohibition of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide - female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-OxfordDicT-7 - [8] "The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry - dowry , previously regarded as a bride-price paid to the father, became a nuptial gift retained by the wife as part of her personal property." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-majid-8 - [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Espos-5 - [6] Under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia - Islamic law , marriage was no longer viewed as a "status" but rather as a " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract - contract ", in which the woman's consent was imperative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-majid-8 - [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Espos-5 - [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-OxfordDicT-7 - [8] "Women were given inheritance rights in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_society - patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Espos-5 - [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annemarie_Schimmel - Annemarie Schimmel states that "compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh - Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law - letter of the law , to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Schimmel-9 - [10] According to Professor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Watt - William Montgomery Watt , when seen in such historical context, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad - Muhammad "can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women�s rights." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-10 - [11] Some have claimed that women generally had more legal rights under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia - Islamic law than they did under Western legal systems until http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era - more recent times . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-badawi-11 - [12] English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Law - Common Law transferred property held by a wife at the time of a marriage to her husband, which contrasted with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura - Sura : "Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much - a determinate share" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran - Quran 4:7), albeit maintaining that husbands were solely responsible for the maintenance and leadership of his wife and family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-badawi-11 - [12] "French married women, unlike their Muslim sisters, suffered from restrictions on their legal capacity which were removed only in 1965." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_rights#cite_note-Badr-1984-12 - [13] Do we need to continue further?If your argument is on the prevailing conditions in Muslim populated lands.... of course there is hardly an independent Islamic country across the neocolonial political spectrum ...if men are hardly free, or educated in Islamic law how can we judge the condition of their women? You don't even want go into the old Christian European history to see the plight of the women...the witch burning and all ... Whatever so called freedoms for promiscuity and state of Gomorrah in the western world is the bi product of the Liberalism's onslaught on the society through secular academia and media....If you want to equate the Liberalism's fruits with Christianity's ....be my guest it is all yours and it is all going down the toilet...Look where does the west stands today on the brink of an abyss financially morally and you name it>........ ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 26 February 2009 at 10:01pm
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 February 2009 at 3:58am
Ditto!!!
Wa'salaam.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 27 February 2009 at 6:23am
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Hasan,
I think I have answered all of your questions. If I missed one please restate and I will reply.
Apollos
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Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 27 February 2009 at 6:24am
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By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo?
Hasan Looks like he has pole vaulted over it , like he has done over many other issues raised.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 27 February 2009 at 9:31am
Saladin,
I am not trying ignore any issues raised. With so many Muslims responding to my post it is possible I am missing a post. If you will be so kind as to restate any issues you believe I ignored, I will be happy to reply.
Apollos
|
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 March 2009 at 1:30pm
|
Apollo,
yes, just like others I am waiting your reply to the issue I raised. One things is sure Apollo, you are not just going to have more knowledge about Islam, but about your own belief, thanks to your coming on this forum.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 March 2009 at 4:18pm
|
"When Christianity appeared women were attracted to it. Within the Christian sub-culture, women held a much higher status than did women throughout the Greco-Roman world. Women were recognized by Christianity as equal to men, children of God with the same supernatural destiny. The Christian prohibition of polygamy, divorce, birth control, abortion and infanticide contributed to the well-being of women substantially, securing them dignity and rights within both Church and state. One effect of this higher status was to increase the number of Christian women, which in turn led to a superior fertility rate for Christians, another factor in the growth of the faith. Christians influenced Constantine and later emperors to enact laws on behalf of women. These laws and attitudes were carried to other lands as Christianity grew." If Jesus and early Christians considered women equal to men, then please answer the following: 1. How many of Jesus' hand-picked Apostles were women?2. How many of Jesus' female followers were given the ability to perform miracles in his name after his death?
3. How many books of the New Testamant are written by women?
4. How did Mary Magdalene come to be known as a prostitute throughout early Christian teachings?
5. Why was The Gospel of Mary totally dismissed by the church?
6. How many women were present at the Council of Nicene?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 02 March 2009 at 7:42pm
Hasan,
I have read the posts again and I guess I assumed your question was obsolete now. That is - some people here had pointed out that the debate on this thread was sounding like a "my religion's better than yours". I agreed and thought others did too. I regret that I set up the discussion like I did and as I have said before, I was wrong in connecting too much of some countries practices with Islam.
Nonetheless, you asked the below question and I assume you still want an answer:
I have a question for you, what rights a woman has against an abusive husband. And what is the status of divorce in Chrsitianity. I need refrances from the Bible with your reply.
The short answer is - a Christian woman can and should get away from physical abuse and can expect the Church to help her. Scripture passages that support this are: Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (among other things it is wrong to allow something or someone to abuse our bodies).
If the husband is not a believer and/or won�t respond to correction from the Church, the woman can and should leave the husband for her own protection. Apollos |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 1:04pm
|
If the husband is a believer, and his abuse has not escalated to criminal proportions, a woman can also appeal to the principles of (Matthew 18:15-18) and ask the church to intervene in her behalf. you know so little about Shariah law Apollo.. that is why people study jurisprudence and they have judges.. called family court. In Islam a woman can leave her husband if he is abusing her. She can leave him if he does not do his duties, if he tells her to work, if he does not support her in ways she is accustomed.. if my husband does not pray and won't i can leave him.. hello Since the 'church' really comes down to changing laws,which it has done, are they the laws that Jesus sent down? oops those were changed by Paul... hmmm and Apollo are you here to learn or just to throw out stuff. Every Muslim here does not blame Christianity to the poor position of women in "Christian countries" why do you keep going on about it? abuse is a problem with human failings not the core of a religion. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 7:44pm
Hayfa,
Your reply seems to imply that I criticized a Muslim believer or teaching. In that I was only describing Christian Scripture and beliefs to answer a previous question , I don't see why you say I don't know Sharia. I wasn't trying to describe Sharia. You ask if I am here to learn but this post was my answer to Hasan's question. What is your point?
Apollos
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 4:38pm
Apollo,
I believe debate is healthy as long as the purpose is the benefit from it and of course be based on mutual respect and truth.
Reading above reminded me of an old saying of the east that traslates to something like: think before tossing trash toward the moon, as it will land on yourself!
Anyway Apollo, my question was for practical reasons. I know that God teaches us to be just and kind toward each other. but I wanted to know was: what is the practical command that the Bible gives when an abuse do occur, or simply if a man is just disfunctional, what rights and protection there are for woman?
I see here in the West we see marriages dissolved and spouses changes more often than cars, now that's the other extreme, but what do devout Christians look upto as a devine ruling toward the cases I have mentioned above.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 8:10pm
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Hasan,
Did I answer your question? I can't tell from your remarks.
Apollos
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 3:52pm
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Apollo,
Are you saying there isn't anything to offer from the Bible to my question?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Apollos
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 6:30pm
Hasan,
No I am saying - I answered a question on what Christians believe and why they believe this concerning an abusive husband. I provided an answer and the Scrptural basis. Then Hayfa responded as if - it seemed to me - that I was somehow critcizing Sharia with my answer. So I posted a question asking what he meant. Now you act as though I didn't answer the original question. Do you see the 4 Scriptural references I provided?
Apollos
|