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Women in Islam versus Judeo-christiamity

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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Angel - there are women ministers in Protestant churches.
 
However they are not endorsed by mainstream christianity, and are a modern innovation - majority of christian ministers do not agree with having female ministers. . .
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:00pm

But believer, why are there no woman - pastors. And also its said women shud keep silence in churches -- ? Here's a verse

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

Its a shame to speak in church ---
 
Women is Islam are allowed to lead prayers , Angel. They can lead other women but not men. There are many reasons as why can;t they lead men. Firstly been, hen a woman recites Qur'an in the prayers in a beautiful voice, this also is attractive to men and can make them concentrate less on the message than the messenger. Secondly there is a order in which we are to congregate. First rows will be of men, then children and last are women. So how can a muslimah, stand first and lead ?
 
Further Friday prayers are n't obligatory to women. So they may or may not attend them.  The best prayers of women are when offered in there houses. All these things make it clear.  However, there are many scholars , infact Ayesha RA was scholar of all scholars. She educated many great men, from behind the screen. Khayr,  its not that muslim women are been pushed back, but to save the ummah from fitnahs, this is the best and perfect solution in Islam.
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:38pm

Seek, I understand what you are saying and others, but if you want equality in religion then some things need to change, and it begins in letting women leading prayer, mass/church service. And you cannot always play the excuse of "women are attractive creatures and would distract men"

And especially islam and christianity it IS very male dominated, I know there have been small achievements for women and even there its not easy because men make it hard.
 
Chrysalis is right woman in leadership is not endorsed despite a few women in high positions. The Pope will not endorse it.
 
Religion for me, is something to be balanced not to be unbalanced and the Abrahamic religions do not do that. It is quite unbalannced.
 
And I know men are different in terms of physicality, thinking and doing, but in religion and leading there is some things that can be done in terms of equality, in religion there needs to be a balanced. It's not about making it a rule, its about giving a choice to whoever wishes or its their calling to be able to do. God speaks to both not just one. Even God here in the religions is represented in male form. I know islams view of God is neither but in refering its masculine presented. 


Edited by Angel - 22 June 2008 at 8:41pm
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

 and it begins in letting women leading prayer, mass/church service. And you cannot always play the excuse of "women are attractive creatures and would distract men"

And especially islam and christianity it IS very male dominated, I know there have been small achievements for women and even there its not easy because men make it hard.
 
 
 
As far as the all the statements in the Bible, Torah that Brer Seeks mentioned. . . I do not blame the religions for them, because we as Muslims believe that Allah has always sent down the same message. I do not even blame present day followers, I believe the fault lies with the  Religous leaders of older days, who corrupted the religions with thier own versions and traditions, and made a hotch-potch of God's word.
 
Angel:  When it comes to religion, Islam is not exactly male dominated. And the reason why women cannot lead prayers in Mosques/male congregations is because when women are indisposed, i.e. menstruating, pregnant, post-pregnancy - they are not able to perform prayers. Leading a congregation is a regular (5-times a day) task, throughout the year. And women cannot miss out on leading the congregation during thier indisposed days.
 
Secondly, When you are leading a congregation, there are all sorts of ppl in them . . good, bad, perverts, etc etc. During prayers, one has to go thru various positions, bending over, bowing down etc, this may expose parts of the body or make them look obvious. . . you cannot ensure that the men behind the women do not leer at her or, or lose the purpose of the prayer.
 
During absences in the congregation as Imam, 7-6 days EVERY month,  the entire neighborhood willl find out when the lady is menstruating etc. . .and that isnt something the entire neighborhood/congregation needs to know!
 
Apart from that . . .the women may lead the men in other aspects in Islam. For example, they can be Ulema's (Religious Scholars) and give Fatwas . . . which the males will also have to follow. They may lead in religon, teach religion both to men/women. As long as Hijab is not being compromised and proper Islamic ettiqqutte is bieng followed. They can also sit on the Mosque's administrative board.
 
Women can lead thier OWN prayers of a female congregation. . . .A man doesnt neccessarily have to step in and lead.
 
Hence, just bcz the nighborhood Imam is a male, doesnt mean Islam forces women to stay behind men always! :) They can excel men in any field. . .even religion.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2008 at 2:12am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

During prayers, one has to go thru various positions, bending over, bowing down etc, this may expose parts of the body or make them look obvious. . . you cannot ensure that the men behind the women do not leer at her or, or lose the purpose of the prayer.
 
So what happens if there is an attractive sheik or priest Wink the same goes for the opposite.
 
Quote During absences in the congregation as Imam, 7-6 days EVERY month,  the entire neighborhood willl find out when the lady is menstruating etc. . .and that isnt something the entire neighborhood/congregation needs to know!
 
Not all women disappear many do work through their menstration. Every woman is different in how they handle it. It is up to the woman if she is able to perform. I know this isn't going to happen because women aren't allowed to touch the quran. As for pregnancy and maternity leave, well I'm sure another person can step in, like when a priest is ill or has to go away for some reason.  
Like I said its not about having it as a rule but let it be a choice, I'm not saying women have to but have a choice.
 
Quote They can excel men in any field. . .even religion.
 
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion! Wink


Edited by Angel - 23 June 2008 at 2:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:14am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

 
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion! Wink
 
Trouble or problems occur when we mere human beings go against the command of God AlMighty - Our Creator. God had given men the special position of being leaders of women. And God also had given women the ability to conceive.
 
Each and everyone of us has a duty to perform, and if we perform it in accordance to God's commands, InshaAllah, there will be no problems at all.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:04am
 
  It is important to remember that we have the Quran to guide us. The Quran deals well with the women giving them good rights. It is a relief to the ladies not to lead any prayers. They are exempted from many other duties too. Some examples of such things can be found in the Torah too.
 
 There is no need to discuss the status of women in christianity because they do not have any laws. But comparison can be made with the Jews. I am sure the laws for the ladies in Islam ( take into account the leadership and laws of marriage and divorce and inheritance, all such things) are excellent. They are respected. It is admitted they have a soul.
 
 It is also admitted that the soul has no gender. There is every opportunity in Islam for the ladies to lead an honorable respectable life and to progress spiritually to any height.
 
 Now coming to the important topic of leading the prayers, we have no worries. We do not need the ladies to lead our prayers for any reason. There is no need. Most important is the Sunnah (the practice) of the holy prophet. He practically translated the whole Quran for us by his own examples. In his time, ladies were not leading any prayers. So that is the end of it.
 
 The merits and demerits of such things can be discussed ad infinitum. There will be no clear result. Islam has a complete system of prayers day and night, all over the world. It is an examplary system not found in any other religion.. There are mosques and Imams. Imam is a must. Prayer cannot be performed without an Imam. But the requirement of the Imam does not limit it to the performance of 5 time daily prayers. It goes beyond that. It is a meaningful leadership necessitating love and obedience to the leader.
 
 The Imam has to be an all time spiritual leader. Ladies cannot be available for those duties at all times.


Edited by minuteman - 23 June 2008 at 9:37am
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:56am

Where are the women?

6/25/2008 - Social Family Education - Article Ref: YM0806-3600

 

 

From the pulpit to the preachers, many often proclaim Islam's liberation of women 1400 years ago. After all Islam did recognize that women possessed souls -this acknowledged only over the past 100 years in Christianity and Islam did give women the right to vote -yet another relatively recent phenomena in Western society. We are quick to convince skeptics of Islam's superiority in that the first martyr in Islam was a woman, the first to accept Islam was Khadijah, the first nurse was Rufaida, that the one from whom we have learned one third of our faith was Aisha. (May Allah be pleased with them all.)

 

And why should we not feel proud of such a legacy when this legacy has produced scholarship and numerous examples of leadership, virtue and excellence. Women who, for all intents and purposes, outshone many of their male counterparts despite their "gender."

 

However if we were to take a critical look at our community today we would be hard-pressed to find the likes of Aisha, Fatima, Nusaybah and many others. We would first have to look behind the barriers erected in the masajid, or call on them at their homes where they have been relegated to housework by the male-dominated and chauvinistic practices that have permeated the Muslim community.

 

Virtue today as imposed (or should I say "encouraged") upon Muslim women dictates that a woman should be fully covered (the more the better), that she stays at home and raises the children and fulfill her husband's every wish and desire. It is better that she stays inside than walk outside lest she be a temptress and cause someone to commit sin by looking at her, that she should be silent because her voice is her cover. Should she have questions, it is best that she write them and "fly them" over the barriers so that someone would by chance pick it up and read it and perhaps give her an answer.

 

We the men, the "proper leaders" know that women come from the rib of man and that it is bent and cannot be made straight, that women are highly emotional and of course have that "menstrual thing", which incapacitates their ability to make proper decisions and to function in a "normal way". There is no way that they can contribute to Islamic work because their voices and "grace" make them weaknesses for men and so it is in keeping with piety that we shut them out and lock them away. After all, men being the rational thinkers are capable of making decisions for women who are in constant need of our superior knowledge.

 

Hence we do not need them on the boards of our institutions, we fail to put them in leadership positions because it is not compatible with their "feminine nature". As one imam once said, they may start to "fraternize with the men". In keeping with this, we do not really need to give them a big space at the mosque because they should pray at home. Should we be so generous as to offer them some space, we must ensure that it is fully sealed so that there is not enough ventilation and that they are trapped within the confines of limited space with 20 crying babies. It is ok if they don't hear anything because they don't really need that much knowledge, even though the lap of the mother is the first school of the ummah. As long as we don't hear or see them, then all is well.

 

We should not shame them by giving them the ability to communicate their ideas, thoughts or wishes because we already know them. So we are locking them up for their own good. Anyone who dares to question this must be outside of the proper understanding of Islam. There seems to be some discrepancy between what is said on the pulpit about the excellence of the earlier women and how it translates to reality for our sisters. It has further allowed the perpetuation of blatant double standards in terms of what women and men can and cannot do. Usually men can engage in numerous activities, which if done by women, would cause their commitment to Islam to be questioned.

 

Women comprise about half of our community, yet they must still compete to have their voices heard, to have space, to be able to go to functions that take into consideration that they need to bring their children. More often than not, when there are issues involving our sisters, they are "dealt with" by the men. When any sisters dare to challenge this, they automatically are branded as western-styled feminists who are trying to sully the sanctity of Islamic values and ideals.

 

Yet if one were to look on campuses and in general community work the faith based work of this community is being carried on the shoulders of Muslim women. Many whom would ordinarily be silenced are finding their niches and are doing their bit to fulfill their covenant in enjoining right and forbidding evil and in spreading this deen. In fact, women in our community are the flag-bearers of Islam, particularly those who wear hijab because they are easily identifiable. When walking down the street, it is those whom we notice as being Muslim and those who are approached and asked about Islam.

 

We tend to answer in utopian terms, when asked about our glorious past and ignore the wrongdoing that has been taking place today. It behooves us (men) to believe that we can be wrong or may have wrong understandings of the seerah (biography of Prophet Muhammad) and the place of women in society.

 

It would appear though that having shut women out of the community has allowed them now to approach Islam and Islamic work with less baggage than men. Men have inherited much cultural baggage that they still keep with them today, cultural practices that have become engrained in our daily practices as being Islamic. As Muslim women return to the authentic understanding of the Qur'an and Seerah, they are in a better position to take on this work and fulfill its requirements.

 

Islamic work in North America and the world will never be successful until women are completely integrated within the framework of leadership, decision-making and shura. While no one is arguing for "free intermingling" or a neglect of duties of motherhood or the negation of fiqh (and its proper application) there is a need for discussion and critical deconstruction of some of the cultural practices that have become mainstays in our community.

 

The argument that the time of the prophet was different and now is a time of fitna holds no weight, especially when one considers that the earliest generation of Muslims was in one of the most corrupt societies that existed. Yet women played a vibrant part of its growth and development. They were consulted when decisions were to be made, they were included in matters affecting society's growth and development, some were teachers and others were poets, others fought in war, all this, while still following Allah's commands and the examples of his prophet. There are no shortages of examples of this in the seerah, though they tend to be ignored.

 

We are quick to point to the fact that we are leaders and have the "last say". Perhaps there is a need to analyze our understanding of leadership. Is a leader one who ignores the needs of others, makes all the decisions and is scared of debate and consultation? The prophet peace be upon him was the opposite of this. He was the best of leaders as he consulted with others and led by example. He was most kind and in fact said that "the one who is best, is the one who is best to his family and I am the best to my family". It may be that we are afraid that women will perform some of the duties we have been doing better than we have, that their knowledge may be more sound and that they may be more fit for leadership positions than those who have traditionally held the reigns. Even in this regard, we seem to forget the just leadership of the Queen of Sheba or a tradition that is rich with female scholarship. If we are sincere in wanting to do what Allah requires of us, we need to be open to this dialogue, admit our injustices to our sisters, ask for forgiveness and try to move forward. A bird can only fly if it flaps both wings.

 

Allah has made women our equal counterparts and they bring value and insight inherent with their nature that we may not think about or know of. Some scholars explain that women are the spiritual anchors of society. If we are sincere, we need to realize that in many ways we are oppressing our sisters and when we shut women out of leadership roles, banish them to domestic spaces, pretend that we can speak on their behalf, we are oppressing the very ones under whose feet lies paradise. The issues of leadership and involvement are not black and white and those sisters and brothers advocating for change are not asking for all values and standards to be dropped or changed. Instead we are asking for justice and fairness.

 

Sisters should be a part of the majlis-shura in the masajid and various institutions because leadership (and I am not speaking about being imam here) should be defined based on qualification and not gender. Shura entails that we take the voices of the varying members of our community into consideration. We need to ensure that sisters are able to have equal access to speakers and knowledge so that they are able to grow and learn themselves. Our primary consideration should not be how big a barrier is and whether or not it touches the ceiling. Most importantly we have to let sisters represent themselves, we should not speak for them but with them. The realization should be based upon the trust that women are our partners in establishing Islam in the world and do not have ulterior motives of "fraternizing with the opposite sex." They too want to work with us to benefit Islam, Muslims and society in general.

 

Muslims have a standard that has to be adhered to as defined by the Qur'an and the practice of the prophet pbuh. We need to rise to the challenge of implementing this within our daily lives, to adhere to its boundaries and to challenge our own bias and (mis)-interpretations of it's application. As men, it is time that we acknowledge the struggles of our sisters (both within and without our community) and it is even more important to recognize the privilege that we have enjoyed due to no real merit but simply because of our gender. If we want to please Allah and to be true to our covenant of bringing this deen to the people around us, it is necessary for us to address these issues. Until such time we will be held accountable before Allah when people reject our self-styled versions of Islam.

 

Jeewan Chanicka is a contributing writer for Young Muslims Canada website. 

 
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