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Women in Islam versus Judeo-christiamity

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Topic: Women in Islam versus Judeo-christiamity
Posted By: seekshidayath
Subject: Women in Islam versus Judeo-christiamity
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 6:47pm
 I wished to share this i read. It is by Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem. Am sure women-in-Islam shall thank Allah swt for the status they are given in Islam.  Let us see what do the other Books say ---
 
EVE'S FAULT ?
 
The three religions agree on one basic fact: Both women and men are created by God, The Creator of the whole universe. However, disagreement starts soon after the creation of the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve. The Judaeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in Genesis 2:4-3:24. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve, "The woman you put here with me --she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:
 
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
 
To Adam He said:
 
"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."
 
The Islamic conception of the first creation is found in several places in the Quran, for example:
 
"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said: 'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.' And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (7:19:23).
 
A careful look into the two accounts of the story of the Creation reveals some essential differences. The Quran, contrary to the Bible, places equal blame on both Adam and Eve for their mistake. Nowhere in the Quran can one find even the slightest hint that Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree or even that she had eaten before him. Eve in the Quran is no temptress, no seducer, and no deceiver. Moreover, Eve is not to be blamed for the pains of childbearing. God, according to the Quran, punishes no one for another's faults. Both Adam and Eve committed a sin and then asked God for forgiveness and He forgave them both.
EVE'S LEGACY
 
The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile. Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex. In order to appreciate how negative the impact of the Biblical Eve was on all her female descendants we have to look at the writings of some of the most important Jews and Christians of all time. Let us start with the Old Testament and look at excerpts from what is called the Wisdom Literature in which we find:
 
"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).
 
In another part of the Hebrew literature which is found in the Catholic Bible we read:
 
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
 
Jewish Rabbis listed nine curses inflicted on women as a result of the Fall:
"To the woman He gave nine curses and death: the burden of the blood of menstruation and the blood of virginity; the burden of pregnancy; the burden of childbirth; the burden of bringing up the children; her head is covered as one in mourning; she pierces her ear like a permanent slave or slave girl who serves her master; she is not to be believed as a witness; and after everything--death."
 
To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite "Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman." The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will."  Another prayer found in many Jewish prayer books: "Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman. Praised be God that he has not created me an ignoramus."
 
The Biblical Eve has played a far bigger role in Christianity than in Judaism. Her sin has been pivotal to the whole Christian faith because the Christian conception of the reason for the mission of Jesus Christ on Earth stems from Eve's disobedience to God. She had sinned and then seduced Adam to follow her suit. Consequently, God expelled both of them from Heaven to Earth, which had been cursed because of them. They bequeathed their sin, which had not been forgiven by God, to all their descendants and, thus, all humans are born in sin. In order to purify human beings from their 'original sin', God had to sacrifice Jesus, who is considered to be the Son of God, on the cross. Therefore, Eve is responsible for her own mistake, her husband's sin, the original sin of all humanity, and the death of the Son of God. In other words, one woman acting on her own caused the fall of humanity. 5 What about her daughters? They are sinners like her and have to be treated as such. Listen to the severe tone of St. Paul in the New Testament:
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
 
St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said: 6
 
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."
St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."
 
Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:
 
"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"
 
Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. To sum up, the Judaeo-Christian conception of women has been poisoned by the belief in the sinful nature of Eve and her female offspring.
 
If we now turn our attention to what the Quran has to say about women, we will soon realize that the Islamic conception of women is radically different from the Judaeo-Christian one. Let the Quran speak for itself:
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward" (33:35).
 
"The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise" (9:71).
"And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another" (3:195).
 
"Whoever works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof, and whoever works a righteous deed -whether man or woman- and is a believer- such will enter the Garden of bliss" (40:40).
 
"Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions" (16:97).
It is clear that the Quranic view of women is no different than that of men. They, both, are God's creatures whose sublime goal on earth is to worship their Lord, do righteous deeds, and avoid evil and they, both, will be assessed accordingly. The Quran never mentions that the woman is the devil's gateway or that she is a deceiver by nature. The Quran, also, never mentions that man is God's image; all men and all women are his creatures, that is all. According to the Quran, a woman's role on earth is not limited only to childbirth. She is required to do as many good deeds as any other man is required to do. The Quran never says that no upright women have ever existed. To the contrary, the Quran has instructed all the believers, women as well as men, to follow the example of those ideal women such as the Virgin Mary and the Pharoah's wife:
 
"And Allah sets forth, As an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: 'O my lord build for me, in nearness to you, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those who do wrong.' And Mary the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity and We breathed into her body of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations and was one of the devout" (66:11-13).
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."



Replies:
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 6:50pm
SHAMEFUL DAUGHTERS ?

In fact, the difference between the Biblical and the Quranic attitude towards the female sex starts as soon as a female is born. For example, the Bible states that the period of the mother's ritual impurity is twice as long if a girl is born than if a boy is (Lev. 12:2-5). The Catholic Bible states explicitly that:

"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

In contrast to this shocking statement, boys receive special praise:

"A man who educates his son will be the envy of his enemy." (Ecclesiasticus 30:3)

Jewish Rabbis made it an obligation on Jewish men to produce offspring in order to propagate the race. At the same time, they did not hide their clear preference for male children : "It is well for those whose children are male but ill for those whose are female", "At the birth of a boy, all are joyful...at the birth of a girl all are sorrowful", and "When a boy comes into the world, peace comes into the world... When a girl comes, nothing comes."7

A daughter is considered a painful burden, a potential source of shame to her father:

"Your daughter is headstrong? Keep a sharp look-out that she does not make you the laughing stock of your enemies, the talk of the town, the object of common gossip, and put you to public shame" (Ecclesiasticus 42:11).

"Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).

It was this very same idea of treating daughters as sources of shame that led the pagan Arabs, before the advent of Islam, to practice female infanticide. The Quran severely condemned this heinous practice:

"When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! what an evil they decide on?" (16:59).

It has to be mentioned that this sinister crime would have never stopped in Arabia were it not for the power of the scathing terms the Quran used to condemn this practice (16:59, 43:17, 81:8-9). The Quran, moreover, makes no distinction between boys and girls. In contrast to the Bible, the Quran considers the birth of a female as a gift and a blessing from God, the same as the birth of a male. The Quran even mentions the gift of the female birth first:

" To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills" (42:49).

In order to wipe out all the traces of female infanticide in the nascent Muslim society, Prophet Muhammad promised those who were blessed with daughters of a great reward if they would bring them up kindly:

"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim).

"Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).

FEMALE EDUCATION ?

The difference between the Biblical and the Quranic conceptions of women is not limited to the newly born female, it extends far beyond that. Let us compare their attitudes towards a female trying to learn her religion. The heart of Judaism is the Torah, the law. However, according to the Talmud, "women are exempt from the study of the Torah." Some Jewish Rabbis firmly declared "Let the words of Torah rather be destroyed by fire than imparted to women", and "Whoever teaches his daughter Torah is as though he taught her obscenity"8

The attitude of St. Paul in the New Testament is not brighter:

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

How can a woman learn if she is not allowed to speak? How can a woman grow intellectually if she is obliged to be in a state of full submission? How can she broaden her horizons if her one and only source of information is her husband at home?

Now, to be fair, we should ask: is the Quranic position any different? One short story narrated in the Quran sums its position up concisely. Khawlah was a Muslim woman whose husband Aws pronounced this statement at a moment of anger: "You are to me as the back of my mother." This was held by pagan Arabs to be a statement of divorce which freed the husband from any conjugal responsibility but did not leave the wife free to leave the husband's home or to marry another man. Having heard these words from her husband, Khawlah was in a miserable situation. She went straight to the Prophet of Islam to plead her case. The Prophet was of the opinion that she should be patient since there seemed to be no way out. Khawla kept arguing with the Prophet in an attempt to save her suspended marriage. Shortly, the Quran intervened; Khawla's plea was accepted. The divine verdict abolished this iniquitous custom. One full chapter (Chapter 58) of the Quran whose title is "Almujadilah" or "The woman who is arguing" was named after this incident:

"Allah has heard and accepted the statement of the woman who pleads with you (the Prophet) concerning her husband and carries her complaint to Allah, and Allah hears the arguments between both of you for Allah hears and sees all things...." (58:1).

A woman in the Quranic conception has the right to argue even with the Prophet of Islam himself. No one has the right to instruct her to be silent. She is under no obligation to consider her husband the one and only reference in matters of law and religion.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 6:54pm

Next was Unclean Impure Women : Am sorry i shall not share it. Its not worth discussing.

 
BEARING WITNESS

Another issue in which the Quran and the Bible disagree is the issue of women bearing witness. It is true that the Quran has instructed the believers dealing in financial transactions to get two male witnesses or one male and two females (2:282). However, it is also true that the Quran in other situations accepts the testimony of a woman as equal to that of a man. In fact the woman's testimony can even invalidate the man's. If a man accuses his wife of unchastity, he is required by the Quran to solemnly swear five times as evidence of the wife's guilt. If the wife denies and swears similarly five times, she is not considered guilty and in either case the marriage is dissolved (24:6-11).

On the other hand, women were not allowed to bear witness in early Jewish society. 12 The Rabbis counted women's not being able to bear witness among the nine curses inflicted upon all women because of the Fall (see the "Eve's Legacy" section). Women in today's Israel are not allowed to give evidence in Rabbinical courts. 13 The Rabbis justify why women cannot bear witness by citing Genesis 18:9-16, where it is stated that Sara, Abraham's wife had lied. The Rabbis use this incident as evidence that women are unqualified to bear witness. It should be noted here that this story narrated in Genesis 18:9-16 has been mentioned more than once in the Quran without any hint of any lies by Sara (11:69-74, 51:24-30). In the Christian West, both ecclesiastical and civil law debarred women from giving testimony until late last century. 14

If a man accuses his wife of unchastity, her testimony will not be considered at all according to the Bible. The accused wife has to be subjected to a trial by ordeal. In this trial, the wife faces a complex and humiliating ritual which was supposed to prove her guilt or innocence (Num. 5:11-31). If she is found guilty after this ordeal, she will be sentenced to death. If she is found not guilty, her husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing.

Besides, if a man takes a woman as a wife and then accuses her of not being a virgin, her own testimony will not count. Her parents had to bring evidence of her virginity before the elders of the town. If the parents could not prove the innocence of their daughter, she would be stoned to death on her father's doorsteps. If the parents were able to prove her innocence, the husband would only be fined one hundred shekels of silver and he could not divorce his wife as long as he lived:

"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said I did not find your daughter to be a virgin. But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21

ADULTERY

Adultery is considered a sin in all religions. The Bible decrees the death sentence for both the adulterer and the adulteress (Lev. 20:10). Islam also equally punishes both the adulterer and the adulteress (24:2). However, the Quranic definition of adultery is very different from the Biblical definition. Adultery, according to the Quran, is the involvement of a married man or a married woman in an extramarital affair. The Bible only considers the extramarital affair of a married woman as adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22, Proverbs 6:20-7:27).

"If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel" (Deut. 22:22).

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Lev. 20:10).

According to the Biblical definition, if a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman, this is not considered a crime at all. The married man who has extramarital affairs with unmarried women is not an adulterer and the unmarried women involved with him are not adulteresses. The crime of adultery is committed only when a man, whether married or single, sleeps with a married woman. In this case the man is considered adulterer, even if he is not married, and the woman is considered adulteress. In short, adultery is any illicit sexual intercourse involving a married woman. The extramarital affair of a married man is not per se a crime in the Bible. Why is the dual moral standard? According to Encyclopaedia Judaica, the wife was considered to be the husband's possession and adultery constituted a violation of the husband's exclusive right to her; the wife as the husband's possession had no such right to him. 15 That is, if a man had sexual intercourse with a married woman, he would be violating the property of another man and, thus, he should be punished.

To the present day in Israel, if a married man indulges in an extramarital affair with an unmarried woman, his children by that woman are considered legitimate. But, if a married woman has an affair with another man, whether married or not married, her children by that man are not only illegitimate but they are considered bastards and are forbidden to marry any other Jews except converts and other bastards. This ban is handed down to the children's descendants for 10 generations until the taint of adultery is presumably weakened. 16

The Quran, on the other hand, never considers any woman to be the possession of any man. The Quran eloquently describes the relationship between the spouses by saying:

" And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect" (30:21).

This is the Quranic conception of marriage: love, mercy, and tranquillity, not possession and double standards

VOWS

According to the Bible, a man must fulfil any vows he might make to God. He must not break his word. On the other hand, a woman's vow is not necessarily binding on her. It has to be approved by her father, if she is living in his house, or by her husband, if she is married. If a father/husband does not endorse his daughter's/wife's vows, all pledges made by her become null and void:

"But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand ....Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself" (Num. 30:2-15)

Why is it that a woman's word is not binding per se ? The answer is simple: because she is owned by her father, before marriage, or by her husband after marriage. The father's control over his daughter was absolute to the extent that, should he wish, he could sell her! It is indicated in the writings of the Rabbis that: "The man may sell his daughter, but the woman may not sell her daughter; the man may betroth his daughter, but the woman may not betroth her daughter." 17 The Rabbinic literature also indicates that marriage represents the transfer of control from the father to the husband: "betrothal, making a woman the sacrosanct possession--the inviolable property-- of the husband..." Obviously, if the woman is considered to be the property of someone else, she cannot make any pledges that her owner does not approve of.

It is of interest to note that this Biblical instruction concerning women's vows has had negative repercussions on Judaeo-Christian women till early in this century. A married woman in the Western world had no legal status. No act of hers was of any legal value. Her husband could repudiate any contract, bargain, or deal she had made. Women in the West (the largest heir of the Judaeo-Christian legacy) were held unable to make a binding contract because they were practically owned by someone else. Western women had suffered for almost two thousand years because of the Biblical attitude towards women's position vis-�-vis their fathers and husbands. 18

In Islam, the vow of every Muslim, male or female, is binding on him/her. No one has the power to repudiate the pledges of anyone else. Failure to keep a solemn oath, made by a man or a woman, has to be expiated as indicated in the Quran:

"He [God] will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; Or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths you have sworn. But keep your oaths" (5:89).

Companions of the Prophet Muhammad, men and women, used to present their oath of allegiance to him personally. Women, as well as men, would independently come to him and pledge their oaths:

"O Prophet, When believing women come to you to make a covenant with you that they will not associate in worship anything with God, nor steal, nor fornicate, nor kill their own children, nor slander anyone, nor disobey you in any just matter, then make a covenant with them and pray to God for the forgiveness of their sins. Indeed God is Forgiving and most Merciful" (60:12).

A man could not swear the oath on behalf of his daughter or his wife. Nor could a man repudiate the oath made by any of his female relatives.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 7:02pm
WIFE'S PROPERTY ?

The three religions share an unshakeable belief in the importance of marriage and family life. They also agree on the leadership of the husband over the family. Nevertheless, blatant differences do exist among the three religions with respect to the limits of this leadership. The Judaeo-Christian tradition, unlike Islam, virtually extends the leadership of the husband into ownership of his wife.

The Jewish tradition regarding the husband's role towards his wife stems from the conception that he owns her as he owns his slave. 19 This conception has been the reason behind the double standard in the laws of adultery and behind the husband's ability to annul his wife's vows. This conception has also been responsible for denying the wife any control over her property or her earnings. As soon as a Jewish woman got married, she completely lost any control over her property and earnings to her husband. Jewish Rabbis asserted the husband's right to his wife's property as a corollary of his possession of her: "Since one has come into the possession of the woman does it not follow that he should come into the possession of her property too?", and "Since he has acquired the woman should he not acquire also her property?" 20 Thus, marriage caused the richest woman to become practically penniless. The Talmud describes the financial situation of a wife as follows:

"How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his...... Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband..." (San. 71a, Git. 62a)

The fact of the matter is that the property of a Jewish female was meant to attract suitors. A Jewish family would assign their daughter a share of her father's estate to be used as a dowry in case of marriage. It was this dowry that made Jewish daughters an unwelcome burden to their fathers. The father had to raise his daughter for years and then prepare for her marriage by providing a large dowry. Thus, a girl in a Jewish family was a liability and no asset. 21 This liability explains why the birth of a daughter was not celebrated with joy in the old Jewish society (see the "Shameful Daughters?" section). The dowry was the wedding gift presented to the groom under terms of tenancy. The husband would act as the practical owner of the dowry but he could not sell it. The bride would lose any control over the dowry at the moment of marriage. Moreover, she was expected to work after marriage and all her earnings had to go to her husband in return for her maintenance which was his obligation. She could regain her property only in two cases: divorce or her husband's death. Should she die first, he would inherit her property. In the case of the husband's death, the wife could regain her pre-marital property but she was not entitled to inherit any share in her deceased husband's own property. It has to be added that the groom also had to present a marriage gift to his bride, yet again he was the practical owner of this gift as long as they were married. 22

Christianity, until recently, has followed the same Jewish tradition. Both religious and civil authorities in the Christian Roman Empire (after Constantine) required a property agreement as a condition for recognizing the marriage. Families offered their daughters increasing dowries and, as a result, men tended to marry earlier while families postponed their daughters' marriages until later than had been customary. 23 Under Canon law, a wife was entitled to restitution of her dowry if the marriage was annulled unless she was guilty of adultery. In this case, she forfeited her right to the dowry which remained in her husband's hands. 24 Under Canon and civil law a married woman in Christian Europe and America had lost her property rights until late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. For example, women's rights under English law were compiled and published in 1632. These 'rights' included: "That which the husband hath is his own. That which the wife hath is the husband's." 25 The wife not only lost her property upon marriage, she lost her personality as well. No act of her was of legal value. Her husband could repudiate any sale or gift made by her as being of no binding legal value. The person with whom she had any contract was held as a criminal for participating in a fraud. Moreover, she could not sue or be sued in her own name, nor could she sue her own husband. 26 A married woman was practically treated as an infant in the eyes of the law. The wife simply belonged to her husband and therefore she lost her property, her legal personality, and her family name. 27

Islam, since the seventh century C.E., has granted married women the independent personality which the Judaeo-Christian West had deprived them until very recently. In Islam, the bride and her family are under no obligation whatsoever to present a gift to the groom. The girl in a Muslim family is no liability. A woman is so dignified by Islam that she does not need to present gifts in order to attract potential husbands. It is the groom who must present the bride with a marriage gift. This gift is considered her property and neither the groom nor the bride's family have any share in or control over it. In some Muslim societies today, a marriage gift of a hundred thousand dollars in diamonds is not unusual. 28 The bride retains her marriage gifts even if she is later divorced. The husband is not allowed any share in his wife's property except what she offers him with her free consent. 29 The Quran has stated its position on this issue quite clearly:

"And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, Of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer" (4:4)

The wife's property and earnings are under her full control and for her use alone since her, and the children's, maintenance is her husband's responsibility. 30 No matter how rich the wife might be, she is not obliged to act as a co-provider for the family unless she herself voluntarily chooses to do so. Spouses do inherit from one another. Moreover, a married woman in Islam retains her independent legal personality and her family name. 31 An American judge once commented on the rights of Muslim women saying: " A Muslim girl may marry ten times, but her individuality is not absorbed by that of her various husbands. She is a solar planet with a name and legal personality of her own." 32



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 7:23pm

Jesus' Treatment of Women

Christ overthrew many centuries of Jewish law and custom. He consistently treated women and men as equals. He violated numerous Old Testament regulations, which specified gender inequality. He refused to follow the behavioral rules established by the three Jewish religious groups of the day: the Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees. "The actions of Jesus of Nazareth towards women were therefore revolutionary." (1) Some examples are:

He taught women: Luke 10-38:42 describes his visit to the home of Mary and Martha; where Martha chose to be taught by Jesus rather than help her sister make a meal. Jesus praised her for the decision.
He ignored ritual impurity laws: Mark 5:25-34 describes Jesus' cure of a woman who suffered from menstrual bleeding for 12 years. In Judean society of the day, it was a terrible transgression for a man to talk to a woman other than his wife.
He talked to foreign women: John 4:7 to 5:30 describes Jesus' conversation with a woman of Samaria. She was doubly ritually unclean since she was both a foreigner and a woman. Men were not allowed to talk to women, with the exception of their wives. Jesus also helped a Canaanite woman, another foreigner, in Matthew 15:21. He is recorded as curing her daughter of demon-possession.
He taught women students: Jewish tradition at the time was to not allow women to be taught. Rabbi Eliezer wrote in the 1st century CE: "Rather should the words of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman...Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one who teaches her obscenity." (5) Jesus overthrew centuries of tradition. In Luke 10:38-42, he taught Mary.
He used terminology which treated women as equal to men:
Luke 13:16 describes how he cured a woman from an indwelling Satanic spirit. He called her a daughter of Abraham, thus implying that she had equal status with sons of Abraham. "The expression 'son of Abraham' was commonly used to respectfully refer to a Jew, but 'daughter of Abraham', was an unknown parallel phrase...It occurs nowhere else in the Bible." (4) It seems to be a designation created by Jesus.
Luke 7:35 to 8:50 describes how Jesus' forgave a woman's sins. He refers to women and men (i.e. "all" people) as children of wisdom.
He accepted women in his inner circle: Luke 8:1-3 describes the inner circle of Jesus' followers: 12 male disciples and an unspecified number female supporters (Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna and "many others.") It would appear that about half of his closest followers were women.
He appeared first to a woman after his resurrection: Matthew 28:9-10 describes how Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" were the first followers of Jesus to meet him after his resurrection. (However, this account is contradicted by passages in the other 3 gospels and in 1 Corinthians, which state that the first person to see Jesus was Cleopas, Peter or all of the disciples.)
Women were present at Jesus' death: Matthew 27:55-56 and Mark 15:40-41 describe many women who followed Jesus from Galilee and were present at his crucifixion. The men had fled from the scene. (John 19:25-27 contradicts this; the author describes John as being present with the women.)
He told parallel stories: The author of the Gospel of Luke and of Acts shows many parallel episodes: one relating to a woman, the other to a man. For example:
Simeon and Hannah in Luke 2:25-38
Widow of Sarepta and Naaman in Luke 4:25-38
Healing of a man possessed by a demon and the healing of the mother of Peter's wife, starting in Luke 4:31
The woman who had lived a sinful life and Simon, starting in Luke 7:36
A man and woman sleeping together in Luke 17:34
Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11
Dionysius and Damaris in Acts 17:34
Lydia and the jailer's conversion in Acts 16:14-34
The book "Women in the Earliest Churches" lists 9 additional parallels. (3) Author Ben Withernington III quotes H. Flender:

"Luke expresses by this arrangement that man and woman stand together and side by side before God. They are equal in honor and grace; they are endowed with the same gifts and have the same responsibilities."

He expressed concern for widows: Jesus repeated the importance of supporting widows throughout his ministry. The Gospel of Luke alone contains 6 references to widows: (Luke 2:36, 4:26, 7:11, 18:1, 20:47 and 21:1)

There are two passages where Jesus deviates from his usual practice of treating women equally:

His disciples: We have been able to find only one instance in which Jesus did not treat women equally. The 12 disciples that he selected were described in the Gospels as being all male. He later selected a total of 70 disciples; the gender makeup of the latter group was not recorded.
Levirate Marriage: In Mark 12:18-27 Jesus answered a question posed by some Sadducees. They described a woman who was widowed and required to marry her brother-in-law. This was called a "Levirate" marriage. Their first-born son will be considered to be the son of the deceased husband. In this case, they imagined that seven brothers-in-law married her in succession without having a son. Jesus could have used the opportunity to preach on the unfairness of this requirement of Jewish law (from Deuteronomy 25:5-10). After all, the woman was not allowed to refuse to marry any of the brothers, even if she despised some of them. But Jesus is not recorded as having condemned the practice.
Divorce: In Jesus' time, a man could divorce his wife, but the wife had no such right. This practice is supported by seven  references in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) in which a husband gives his wife a bill of divorce. There were no references to a woman giving her husband such a bill. In Mark 10:11-12, Jesus overthrows this tradition and states that either spouse can divorce the other; a wife can divorce her husband. 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 8:55pm

I don't get it with the jewish, if women aren't as great as the men, why is the Jewish line handed down from the women?

And wouldn't this be a problem, since Mary is the decendant of David so therefore Jesus is in line to inheritence as we all know ;-) I know the Jews don't recognise Jesus as the messiah but still, the line is through his mother not his (earthly) father.

?


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 3:28am
I don;t agree when you say he was appeared after resurrction. Anyways, that is a different point of discussion. You just say, if the references given from your books, are right or wrong ? Am just comparing the status, given to a woman in these major religions. Infact, the misconception, may shed off from the minds, if muslim woman are really suppressed .
 
Let us start with Divorce, which is also pasted in your post
 
DIVORCE

The three religions have remarkable differences in their attitudes towards divorce. Christianity abhors divorce altogether. The New Testament unequivocally advocates the indissolubility of marriage. It is attributed to Jesus to have said, "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). This uncompromising ideal is, without a doubt, unrealistic. It assumes a state of moral perfection that human societies have never achieved. When a couple realizes that their married life is beyond repair, a ban on divorce will not do them any good. Forcing ill-mated couples to remain together against their wills is neither effective nor reasonable. No wonder the whole Christian world has been obliged to sanction divorce.

Judaism, on the other hand, allows divorce even without any cause. The Old Testament gives the husband the right to divorce his wife even if he just dislikes her:

"If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled" (Deut. 24:1-4).

The above verses have caused some considerable debate among Jewish scholars because of their disagreement over the interpretation of the words "displeasing", "indecency", and "dislikes" mentioned in the verses. The Talmud records their different opinions:

"The school of Shammai held that a man should not divorce his wife unless he has found her guilty of some sexual misconduct, while the school of Hillel say he may divorce her even if she has merely spoiled a dish for him. Rabbi Akiba says he may divorce her even if he simply finds another woman more beautiful than she" (Gittin 90a-b).

The New Testament follows the Shammaites opinion while Jewish law has followed the opinion of the Hillelites and R. Akiba.  Since the Hillelites view prevailed, it became the unbroken tradition of Jewish law to give the husband freedom to divorce his wife without any cause at all. The Old Testament not only gives the husband the right to divorce his "displeasing" wife, it considers divorcing a "bad wife" an obligation:

"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).

The Talmud has recorded several specific actions by wives which obliged their husbands to divorce them: "If she ate in the street, if she drank greedily in the street, if she suckled in the street, in every case Rabbi Meir says that she must leave her husband" (Git. 89a). The Talmud has also made it mandatory to divorce a barren wife (who bore no children in a period of ten years): "Our Rabbis taught: If a man took a wife and lived with her for ten years and she bore no child, he shall divorce her" (Yeb. 64a).

Wives, on the other hand, cannot initiate divorce under Jewish law. A Jewish wife, however, could claim the right to a divorce before a Jewish court provided that a strong reason exists. Very few grounds are provided for the wife to make a claim for a divorce. These grounds include: A husband with physical defects or skin disease, a husband not fulfilling his conjugal responsibilities, etc. The Court might support the wife's claim to a divorce but it cannot dissolve the marriage. Only the husband can dissolve the marriage by giving his wife a bill of divorce. The Court could scourge, fine, imprison, and excommunicate him to force him to deliver the necessary bill of divorce to his wife. However, if the husband is stubborn enough, he can refuse to grant his wife a divorce and keep her tied to him indefinitely. Worse still, he can desert her without granting her a divorce and leave her unmarried and undivorced. He can marry another woman or even live with any single woman out of wedlock and have children from her (these children are considered legitimate under Jewish law). The deserted wife, on the other hand, cannot marry any other man since she is still legally married and she cannot live with any other man because she will be considered an adulteress and her children from this union will be illegitimate for ten generations. A woman in such a position is called an agunah (chained woman).  In the United States today there are approximately 1000 to 1500 Jewish women who are agunot (plural for agunah), while in Israel their number might be as high as 16000. Husbands may extort thousands of dollars from their trapped wives in exchange for a Jewish divorce.

Islam occupies the middle ground between Christianity and Judaism with respect to divorce. Marriage in Islam is a sanctified bond that should not be broken except for compelling reasons. Couples are instructed to pursue all possible remedies whenever their marriages are in danger. Divorce is not to be resorted to except when there is no other way out. In a nutshell, Islam recognizes divorce, yet it discourages it by all means. Let us focus on the recognition side first. Islam does recognize the right of both partners to end their matrimonial relationship. Islam gives the husband the right for Talaq (divorce). Moreover, Islam, unlike Judaism, grants the wife the right to dissolve the marriage through what is known as Khula'. 36 If the husband dissolves the marriage by divorcing his wife, he cannot retrieve any of the marriage gifts he has given her. The Quran explicitly prohibits the divorcing husbands from taking back their marriage gifts no matter how expensive or valuable these gifts might be:

"But if you decide to take one wife in place of another, even if you had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, take not the least bit of it back; Would you take it by slander and a manifest wrong?" (4:20).

In the case of the wife choosing to end the marriage, she may return the marriage gifts to her husband. Returning the marriage gifts in this case is a fair compensation for the husband who is keen to keep his wife while she chooses to leave him. The Quran has instructed Muslim men not to take back any of the gifts they have given to their wives except in the case of the wife choosing to dissolve the marriage:

"It is not lawful for you (Men) to take back any of your gifts except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. There is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah so do not transgress them" (2:229).

Also, a woman came to the Prophet Muhammad seeking the dissolution of her marriage, she told the Prophet that she did not have any complaints against her husband's character or manners. Her only problem was that she honestly did not like him to the extent of not being able to live with him any longer. The Prophet asked her: "Would you give him his garden (the marriage gift he had given her) back?" she said: "Yes". The Prophet then instructed the man to take back his garden and accept the dissolution of the marriage (Bukhari).

In some cases, A Muslim wife might be willing to keep her marriage but find herself obliged to claim for a divorce because of some compelling reasons such as: Cruelty of the husband, desertion without a reason, a husband not fulfilling his conjugal responsibilities, etc. In these cases the Muslim court dissolves the marriage.

In short, Islam has offered the Muslim woman some unequalled rights: she can end the marriage through Khula' and she can sue for a divorce. A Muslim wife can never become chained by a recalcitrant husband. It was these rights that enticed Jewish women who lived in the early Islamic societies of the seventh century C.E. to seek to obtain bills of divorce from their Jewish husbands in Muslim courts. The Rabbis declared these bills null and void. In order to end this practice, the Rabbis gave new rights and privileges to Jewish women in an attempt to weaken the appeal of the Muslim courts. Jewish women living in Christian countries were not offered any similar privileges since the Roman law of divorce practiced there was no more attractive than the Jewish law.

Let us now focus our attention on how Islam discourages divorce. The Prophet of Islam told the believers that:

"among all the permitted acts, divorce is the most hateful to God" (Abu Dawood).

A Muslim man should not divorce his wife just because he dislikes her. The Quran instructs Muslim men to be kind to their wives even in cases of lukewarm emotions or feelings of dislike:

"Live with them (your wives) on a footing of kindness and equity. If you dislike them it may be that you dislike something in which Allah has placed a great deal of good" (4:19).

Prophet Muhammad gave a similar instruction:

" A believing man must not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes one of her traits he will be pleased with another" (Muslim).

The Prophet has also emphasized that the best Muslims are those who are best to their wives:

"The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best character and the best of you are those who are best to their wives" (Tirmidthi).

However, Islam is a practical religion and it does recognize that there are circumstances in which a marriage becomes on the verge of collapsing. In such cases, a mere advice of kindness or self restraint is no viable solution. So, what to do in order to save a marriage in these cases? The Quran offers some practical advice for the spouse (husband or wife) whose partner (wife or husband) is the wrongdoer. For the husband whose wife's ill-conduct is threatening the marriage, the Quran gives four types of advice as detailed in the following verses:

"As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, (1) Admonish them, (2) refuse to share their beds, (3) beat them; but if they return to obedience seek not against them means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, Great. (4) If you fear a break between them, appoint two arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers; If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation" (4:34-35).

The first three are to be tried first. If they fail, then the help of the families concerned should be sought. It has to be noted, in the light of the above verses, that beating the rebellious wife is a temporary measure that is resorted to as third in line in cases of extreme necessity in hopes that it might remedy the wrongdoing of the wife. If it does, the husband is not allowed by any means to continue any annoyance to the wife as explicitly mentioned in the verse. If it does not, the husband is still not allowed to use this measure any longer and the final avenue of the family-assisted reconciliation has to be explored.

Prophet Muhammad has instructed Muslim husbands that they should not have recourse to these measures except in extreme cases such as open lewdness committed by the wife. Even in these cases the punishment should be slight and if the wife desists, the husband is not permitted to irritate her:

"In case they are guilty of open lewdness you may leave them alone in their beds and inflict slight punishment. If they are obedient to you, do not seek against them any means of annoyance" (Tirmidthi)

Furthermore, the Prophet of Islam has condemned any unjustifiable beating. Some Muslim wives complained to him that their husbands had beaten them. Hearing that, the Prophet categorically stated that:

"Those who do so (beat their wives) are not the best among you" (Abu Dawood).

It has to be remembered at this point that the Prophet has also said:

"The best of you is he who is best to his family, and I am the best among you to my family" (Tirmidthi).

The Prophet advised one Muslim woman, whose name was Fatimah bint Qais, not to marry a man because the man was known for beating women:

"I went to the Prophet and said: Abul Jahm and Mu'awiah have proposed to marry me. The Prophet (by way of advice) said: As to Mu'awiah he is very poor and Abul Jahm is accustomed to beating women" (Muslim).

It has to be noted that the Talmud sanctions wife beating as chastisement for the purpose of discipline.  The husband is not restricted to the extreme cases such as those of open lewdness. He is allowed to beat his wife even if she just refuses to do her house work. Moreover, he is not limited only to the use of light punishment. He is permitted to break his wife's stubbornness by the lash or by starving her.

For the wife whose husband's ill-conduct is the cause for the marriage's near collapse, the Quran offers the following advice:

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best" (4:128).

In this case, the wife is advised to seek reconciliation with her husband (with or without family assistance). It is notable that the Quran is not advising the wife to resort to the two measures of abstention from sex and beating. The reason for this disparity might be to protect the wife from a violent physical reaction by her already misbehaving husband. Such a violent physical reaction will do both the wife and the marriage more harm than good. Some Muslim scholars have suggested that the court can apply these measures against the husband on the wife's behalf. That is, the court first admonishes the rebellious husband, then forbids him his wife's bed, and finally executes a symbolic beating. 

To sum up, Islam offers Muslim married couples much viable advice to save their marriages in cases of trouble and tension. If one of the partners is jeopardizing the matrimonial relationship, the other partner is advised by the Quran to do whatever possible and effective in order to save this sacred bond. If all the measures fail, Islam allows the partners to separate peacefully and amicably.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 3:59am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

I don;t agree when you say he was appeared after resurrction. Anyways, that is a different point of discussion. You just say, if the references given from your books, are right or wrong ? Am just comparing the status, given to a woman in these major religions. Infact, the misconception, may shed off from the minds, if muslim woman are really suppressed .
 


Well, differences on the Crucifixion and Resurrection aside, there is enough documentation to show that Jesus, Son of Mary, Fatherless creation of God, Prophet of Islam, Messiah and Lawgiver, was in fact surrounded by many women of greatness and he treated them very well.

His tenderness is shown in the Apocrypha.  I really blame the steps back from Jesus on Paul.  Its Paul who rights the most damning things in the New Testament about women, not Jesus.  Paul was a man, not a Prophet.

Whether Jesus died, or was carried off, he left his Church in the hands of fallible men.  Men make mistakes and men corrupt teachings to their own desires.

In Islam, there is one striking reason why women are not equals.  4:34, if a woman was truly equal.  A man could never strike her, deny her bed or punish her, that is, unless she was given the same rights.

Yet, its said that a woman who denies her husband's bed is going to hell.  So, he can deny her, but she can't him?  He can hit her, but she can't him?

I do not deny in any way that Islam was the most progressive of the three religions in 600AD.  If I had a choice to be a woman in Rome, Jerusalem or Medina in that time, I would want to be in Medina.

However, Muslim men don't often live by their own rules.  The outside view of Muslim women being oppressed is not a view of the religion but of behavior. 

You can quote Quran all day.  But that does not change the deplorable behavior of those who feel that they have a right to force upon women their own interpretations of things like Hijab, Purdah, Marriage, Divorce.

Another thing that I point out with the earlier examples.  A man can in the heat of an argument say Talaq three times and its over.  A woman must beg a Court and prove she deserves a divorce.  What if she just doesn't like him anymore?  She should have the same rights.  And don't say women are more emotional then men.  We don't run around starting wars over Floyd Hatfield taking Randolph McCoy's pig.  (just a ridiculous example)

Jesus Christ treated Mary Magdalene the same as he did his other disciples.  He treated women with kindness and respect.  To say that the True faith of Jesus Christ is somehow oppressive to women is a knock against Jesus and I love him too much to have you say that.

I will agree that what came after was a mockery of what he taught.  In the 6th century, Popes were debating whether women even had souls.  Thank Heavens, for the Reformation and for Revelation. 


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 5:58pm

Hi Angela,

I thank you, for bringing up your opinion, which i regard is again the opinions of many. I highlighted your lines in a different font color
 
However, Muslim men don't often live by their own rules.  The outside view of Muslim women being oppressed is not a view of the religion but of behavior
 
I would like to edit your line slightly. It cud be said, " "However FEW  Muslim men don't often live by their own rules. Clarifying the same opinion of yours, author agrees with it. And he says , "Why did Muslim societies deviate from the ideals of Islam? There is no easy answer. A penetrating explanation of the reasons why Muslims have not adhered to the Quranic guidance with respect to women would be beyond the scope of this study. It has to be made clear, however, that Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice. This gap is not a recent phenomenon. It has been there for centuries and has been widening day after day. This ever widening gap has had disastrous consequences on the Muslim world manifested in almost all aspects of life: political tyranny and fragmentation, economic backwardness, social injustice, scientific bankruptcy, intellectual stagnation, etc. The non-Islamic status of women in the Muslim world today is merely a symptom of a deeper malady. Any reform in the current status of Muslim women is not expected to be fruitful if not accompanied with more comprehensive reforms of the Muslim societies' whole way of life. The Muslim world is in need for a renaissance that will bring it closer to the ideals of Islam and not further from them. To sum up, the notion that the poor status of Muslim women today is because of Islam is an utter misconception. The problems of Muslims in general are not due to too much attachment to Islam, they are the culmination of a long and deep detachment from it.
 
I would like to add up that i see the Islamic world working over this area. Those FEW people are now coming closer to the ideals of religion. This would help woman her then to enjoy her  rights given in Islam.
 
A man could never strike her, deny her bed or punish her, that is, unless she was given the same rights.
 
 He can hit her, but she can't him ?

My dear sister, Islam also teaches how to hit. Its not that , you use violent ways to hit her. Here again i would like to share with and remove the misception of yours , as well as others in whose minds this doubt arised. I would prefer to share the lines of  a shaikh rather than mine.

If a father mistreats his son, does the son have the right to hit his father? Why not?

If a mother mistreats her daughter, does the daughter have the right to hit her mother? Why not?

If a teacher mistreats his student, does the student have the right to hit his teacher? Why not?

If a commander mistreats a soldier, does the soldier have the right to hit his commander? Why not?

The answer in all the above cases is: No, and the reason for this is clear. It is because the father�s position is higher than that of his son, the mother�s position is higher than that of her daughter, and the teacher�s position is higher than that of the student. Hence it is not appropriate for the people in the lower position to punish those whose position is higher. The same applies to husband and wife: the husband is in charge of his wife, and she has to obey him and not go out without his permission, otherwise the stability of the family will be destroyed. The family should have just one leader to steer its course, and that leader is the one who spends on the family and protects it. The husband is physically stronger and is more wise than the wife. We can easily understand if he disciplines his wife when she does something wrong, but we cannot imagine the wife hitting the husband if he is at fault. Would she hit someone who is physically stronger than she is? Would she hit her leader and protector? At the same time, the husband is not allowed to hit his wife for every little thing or as he wishes. If she is at fault or is rebellious, he should first warn and advise her. If that doesn�t work, then he should withhold conjugal relations and not speak to her, until she comes to her senses. If that doesn�t work, then he is allowed to hit her, but not in a painful fashion. This does not mean that her entire body is his to beat as he wishes � no, and a thousand times no! Islam does not allow him to hit her severely or leave bruises, or break her bones, or cause her to bleed, neither is he allowed to hit her on the face (as you pointed out in your question). The hitting that is allowed is within certain limits and is for the purpose of discipline, not for revenge or to vent one�s anger. If his wife responds and returns to obedience, he has no right to seek means of annoyance against her. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): �Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband�s absence what Allaah order them to guard (e.g., their chastity, their husband�s property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you fear ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great.� [al-Nisaa� 4:34]

If it is the husband who is mistreating his wife, that does not mean that she should remain oppressed or that her hands are tied. She has the right � just as the husband has � to warn and advise him, and to remind him to fear Allaah. If that does not work, she can seek the help of wise people among his relatives and her own, and they can advise him. If this does not work, then the matter can be taken to a qaadi (Muslim judge) who can force him to do the right thing � and Allah is above them all.

When Islam differentiates between the sexes, it is in the interests of both, and this is the essence of wisdom. Unlike a man, a woman does not have to pray and fast when she has her period, out of consideration for her condition.

She does not have to spend on her husband, because he is stronger and more able to earn a living. In return, she has to obey him and ask his permission before leaving the house; the reverse does not apply. In the event of a separation, it is the mother, and not the father, who has the right to custody of the children. And there are other rulings which are based on an acknowledgment of the differences between the sexes. Can we then say that this is oppression or unfair discrimination? No, by Allah, this is justice and wisdom, revealed by the Wise, All-Aware, All-Knowing, All-Seeing.

We hope that this explanation will make the true picture clearer for you. Put aside the doubts and confusions of those who are ignorant and hate this religion, and enter Islam in which there is justice, safety, security and happiness

A man can in the heat of an argument say Talaq three times and its over.  A woman must beg a Court and prove she deserves a divorce.    And don't say women are more emotional then men.
Hhah, you still remember the line ," Women are more emotional than men". Khayr, The reason a woman isn't allowed to make the Talaaq pronunciation is because,it is the man who has invested more(monetary&otherwise) into a marriage.So he will not be willing to just let everything go into waste.And this explains the necessity and logic behind "waiting period" (or Iddah), within which the couples can reconcile. There are still many other reasons, as why men are given the right to prounounce it. Anyways, as said earlier, even she can distance herself thru the other processes.'. There is differences of opinion over the pronouncing of  Talaaq three times  at once. Few count it as only one. Anyways, thats a different issue.
 
Hope all this clears yours doubts and misconception. May Allah swt guide all of us.
 
 


 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:00pm
 Now, let us see, what do these major religions say about  "Mothers"
 
MOTHERS

The Old Testament in several places commands kind and considerate treatment of the parents and condemns those who dishonor them. For example, "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death" (Lev. 20:9) and "A wise man brings joy to his father but a foolish man despises his mother" (Proverbs 15:20). Although honoring the father alone is mentioned in some places, e.g. "A wise man heeds his father's instruction" (Proverbs 13:1), the mother alone is never mentioned. Moreover, there is no special emphasis on treating the mother kindly as a sign of appreciation of her great suffering in childbearing and suckling. Besides, mothers do not inherit at all from their children while fathers do. 42

It is difficult to speak of the New Testament as a scripture that calls for honoring the mother. To the contrary, one gets the impression that the New Testament considers kind treatment of mothers as an impediment on the way to God. According to the New Testament, one cannot become a good Christian worthy of becoming a disciple of Christ unless he hates his mother. It is attributed to Jesus to have said:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he can not be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

Furthermore, the New Testament depicts a picture of Jesus as indifferent to, or even disrespectful of, his own mother. For example, when she had come looking for him while he was preaching to a crowd, he did not care to go out to see her:

"Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone to call him. A crowd was sitting around him and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said,' Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.' " (Mark 3:31-35)

One might argue that Jesus was trying to teach his audience an important lesson that religious ties are no less important than family ties. However, he could have taught his listeners the same lesson without showing such absolute indifference to his mother. The same disrespectful attitude is depicted when he refused to endorse a statement made by a member of his audience blessing his mother's role in giving birth to him and nursing him:

"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.' " (Luke 11:27-28)

If a mother with the stature of the virgin Mary had been treated with such discourtesy, as depicted in the New Testament, by a son of the stature of Jesus Christ, then how should an average Christian mother be treated by her average Christian sons?

In Islam, the honor, respect, and esteem attached to motherhood is unparalleled. The Quran places the importance of kindness to parents as second only to worshipping God Almighty:

"Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, And that you be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in your life, Say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, But address them in terms of honor. And out of kindness, Lower to them the wing of humility, and say: 'My Lord! bestow on them Your Mercy as they Cherished me in childhood' " (17:23-24).

The Quran in several other places puts special emphasis on the mother's great role in giving birth and nursing:

"And We have enjoined on man to be good to his parents: In travail upon travail did his mother bear him and in two years was his weaning. Show gratitude to Me and to your parents" (31:14).

The very special place of mothers in Islam has been eloquently described by Prophet Muhammad:

"A man asked the Prophet: 'Whom should I honor most?' The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother!'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your father'" (Bukhari and Muslim).

Among the few precepts of Islam which Muslims still faithfully observe to the present day is the considerate treatment of mothers. The honor that Muslim mothers receive from their sons and daughters is exemplary. The intensely warm relations between Muslim mothers and their children and the deep respect with which Muslim men approach their mothers usually amaze Westerners.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 6:02pm
FEMALE INHERITANCE ?

One of the most important differences between the Quran and the Bible is their attitude towards female inheritance of the property of a deceased relative. The Biblical attitude has been succinctly described by Rabbi Epstein: "The continuous and unbroken tradition since the Biblical days gives the female members of the household, wife and daughters, no right of succession to the family estate. In the more primitive scheme of succession, the female members of the family were considered part of the estate and as remote from the legal personality of an heir as the slave. Whereas by Mosaic enactment the daughters were admitted to succession in the event of no male issue remained, the wife was not recognized as heir even in such conditions." 44 Why were the female members of the family considered part of the family estate? Rabbi Epstein has the answer: "They are owned --before marriage, by the father; after marriage, by the husband." 45

The Biblical rules of inheritance are outlined in Numbers 27:1-11. A wife is given no share in her husband's estate, while he is her first heir, even before her sons. A daughter can inherit only if no male heirs exist. A mother is not an heir at all while the father is. Widows and daughters, in case male children remained, were at the mercy of the male heirs for provision. That is why widows and orphan girls were among the most destitute members of the Jewish society.

Christianity has followed suit for long time. Both the ecclesiastical and civil laws of Christendom barred daughters from sharing with their brothers in the father's patrimony. Besides, wives were deprived of any inheritance rights. These iniquitous laws survived till late in the last century46.

Among the pagan Arabs before Islam, inheritance rights were confined exclusively to the male relatives. The Quran abolished all these unjust customs and gave all the female relatives inheritance shares:

"From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large --a determinate share" (4:7).

Muslim mothers, wives, daughters, and sisters had received inheritance rights thirteen hundred years before Europe recognized that these rights even existed. The division of inheritance is a vast subject with an enormous amount of details (4:7,11,12,176). The general rule is that the female share is half the male's except the cases in which the mother receives equal share to that of the father. This general rule if taken in isolation from other legislations concerning men and women may seem unfair. In order to understand the rationale behind this rule, one must take into account the fact that the financial obligations of men in Islam far exceed those of women (see the "Wife's property?" section). A bridegroom must provide his bride with a marriage gift. This gift becomes her exclusive property and remains so even if she is later divorced. The bride is under no obligation to present any gifts to her groom. Moreover, the Muslim husband is charged with the maintenance of his wife and children. The wife, on the other hand, is not obliged to help him in this regard. Her property and earnings are for her use alone except what she may voluntarily offer her husband. Besides, one has to realize that Islam vehemently advocates family life. It strongly encourages youth to get married, discourages divorce, and does not regard celibacy as a virtue. Therefore, in a truly Islamic society, family life is the norm and single life is the rare exception. That is, almost all marriage-aged women and men are married in an Islamic society. In light of these facts, one would appreciate that Muslim men, in general, have greater financial burdens than Muslim women and thus inheritance rules are meant to offset this imbalance so that the society lives free of all gender or class wars. After a simple comparison between the financial rights and duties of Muslim women, one British Muslim woman has concluded that Islam has treated women not only fairly but generously

PLIGHT OF WIDOWS

Because of the fact that the Old Testament recognized no inheritance rights to them, widows were among the most vulnerable of the Jewish population. The male relatives who inherited all of a woman's deceased husband's estate were to provide for her from that estate. However, widows had no way to ensure this provision was carried out, and lived on the mercy of others. Therefore, widows were among the lowest classes in ancient Israel and widowhood was considered a symbol of great degradation (Isaiah 54:4). But the plight of a widow in the Biblical tradition extended even beyond her exclusion from her husband's property. According to Genesis 38, a childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married, so that he can produce offspring for his dead brother, thus ensuring his brother's name will not die out.

"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother' " (Genesis 38:8).

The widow's consent to this marriage is not required. The widow is treated as part of her deceased husband's property whose main function is to ensure her husband's posterity. This Biblical law is still practiced in today's Israel. 48 A childless widow in Israel is bequeathed to her husband's brother. If the brother is too young to marry, she has to wait until he comes of age. Should the deceased husband's brother refuse to marry her, she is set free and can then marry any man of her choice. It is not an uncommon phenomenon in Israel that widows are subjected to blackmail by their brothers-in-law in order to gain their freedom.

The pagan Arabs before Islam had similar practices. A widow was considered a part of her husband's property to be inherited by his male heirs and she was, usually, given in marriage to the deceased man's eldest son from another wife. The Quran scathingly attacked and abolished this degrading custom:

"And marry not women whom your fathers married--Except what is past-- it was shameful, odious, and abominable custom indeed" (4:22).

Widows and divorced women were so looked down upon in the Biblical tradition that the high priest could not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a prostitute:

"The woman he (the high priest) marries must be a virgin. He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, so he will not defile his offspring among his people" (Lev. 21:13-15)

In Israel today, a descendant of the Cohen caste (the high priests of the days of the Temple) cannot marry a divorcee, a widow, or a prostitute. 49 In the Jewish legislation, a woman who has been widowed three times with all the three husbands dying of natural causes is considered 'fatal' and forbidden to marry again. 50 The Quran, on the other hand, recognizes neither castes nor fatal persons. Widows and divorcees have the freedom to marry whomever they choose. There is no stigma attached to divorce or widowhood in the Quran:

"When you divorce women and they fulfil their terms [three menstruation periods] either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; But do not take them back to injure them or to take undue advantage, If anyone does that, he wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's signs as a jest" (2:231).

"If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait four months and ten days. When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just manner" (2:234).

"Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence. But if they [the widows] leave (the residence) there is no blame on you for what they justly do with themselves" (2:240



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 9:41pm
Seek I really think you should start showing citations. Christians are not unanimous on the status of women as well as Jews. There are different views on the status of women in Judaism. I don't think its afair for any of our Jewish and Christian visitors to see you painting the entire Christendom and Judaism with one stroke with referencing it. Don't reference a Bible you don't entirely believe in. Reference the Talmud, The Torah, Rabbinical sayings and so forth. It's not scholarly to copy and paste without referencing. If I were a teacher I'd smack you with plagerism times 10.
 
Also, in the beginning of your post you are giving historical accounts right after your own opionated statements. what are you trying to say? The only way for me to respond is to pick out one statement and c omment on it. Your posts should flow in one format.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 10:35pm
May be you are right Brother. Though i do not intend to defame any, but was just sharing it as soon as i finished reading. The thought that muslim woman shud feel proud of there status, and non-muslims too shud get there misconception cleared, made me to paste it. InshaAllah, i shall seek advice from admin too.

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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:05am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

May be you are right Brother. Though i do not intend to defame any, but was just sharing it as soon as i finished reading. The thought that muslim woman shud feel proud of there status, and non-muslims too shud get there misconception cleared, made me to paste it. InshaAllah, i shall seek advice from admin too.
 
Subhanallah walhamdulillah, Glory be to God and Praise be to God that I am born a Muslim woman.
 
Shukran sister for this enlightening post.
 
Salam.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 5:51pm
JazakiAllahu khayr sister .
 
References shall be posted at the end of this thread, inshaAllah within two days. By the Way , we do have the reference of the verse of its Book along with. Anyways, to continue further
 
PLIGHT OF WIDOWS

Because of the fact that the Old Testament recognized no inheritance rights to them, widows were among the most vulnerable of the Jewish population. The male relatives who inherited all of a woman's deceased husband's estate were to provide for her from that estate. However, widows had no way to ensure this provision was carried out, and lived on the mercy of others. Therefore, widows were among the lowest classes in ancient Israel and widowhood was considered a symbol of great degradation (Isaiah 54:4). But the plight of a widow in the Biblical tradition extended even beyond her exclusion from her husband's property. According to Genesis 38, a childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married, so that he can produce offspring for his dead brother, thus ensuring his brother's name will not die out.

"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother' " (Genesis 38:8).

The widow's consent to this marriage is not required. The widow is treated as part of her deceased husband's property whose main function is to ensure her husband's posterity. This Biblical law is still practiced in today's Israel. 48 A childless widow in Israel is bequeathed to her husband's brother. If the brother is too young to marry, she has to wait until he comes of age. Should the deceased husband's brother refuse to marry her, she is set free and can then marry any man of her choice. It is not an uncommon phenomenon in Israel that widows are subjected to blackmail by their brothers-in-law in order to gain their freedom.

The pagan Arabs before Islam had similar practices. A widow was considered a part of her husband's property to be inherited by his male heirs and she was, usually, given in marriage to the deceased man's eldest son from another wife. The Quran scathingly attacked and abolished this degrading custom:

"And marry not women whom your fathers married--Except what is past-- it was shameful, odious, and abominable custom indeed" (4:22).

Widows and divorced women were so looked down upon in the Biblical tradition that the high priest could not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a prostitute:

"The woman he (the high priest) marries must be a virgin. He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, so he will not defile his offspring among his people" (Lev. 21:13-15)

In Israel today, a descendant of the Cohen caste (the high priests of the days of the Temple) cannot marry a divorcee, a widow, or a prostitute. 49 In the Jewish legislation, a woman who has been widowed three times with all the three husbands dying of natural causes is considered 'fatal' and forbidden to marry again. 50 The Quran, on the other hand, recognizes neither castes nor fatal persons. Widows and divorcees have the freedom to marry whomever they choose. There is no stigma attached to divorce or widowhood in the Quran:

"When you divorce women and they fulfil their terms [three menstruation periods] either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; But do not take them back to injure them or to take undue advantage, If anyone does that, he wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's signs as a jest" (2:231).

"If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait four months and ten days. When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just manner" (2:234).

"Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence. But if they [the widows] leave (the residence) there is no blame on you for what they justly do with themselves" (2:240).



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 5:56pm
POLYGAMY

Let us now tackle the important question of polygamy. Polygamy is a very ancient practice found in many human societies. The Bible did not condemn polygamy. To the contrary, the Old Testament and Rabbinic writings frequently attest to the legality of polygamy. King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3) Also, king David is said to have had many wives and concubines (2 Samuel 5:13). The Old Testament does have some injunctions on how to distribute the property of a man among his sons from different wives (Deut. 22:7). The only restriction on polygamy is a ban on taking a wife's sister as a rival wife (Lev. 18:18). The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives. 51 European Jews continued to practice polygamy until the sixteenth century. Oriental Jews regularly practiced polygamy until they arrived in Israel where it is forbidden under civil law. However, under religious law which overrides civil law in such cases, it is permissible. 52

What about the New Testament? According to Father Eugene Hillman in his insightful book, Polygamy reconsidered, "Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy." 53 Moreover, Jesus has not spoken against polygamy though it was practiced by the Jews of his society. Father Hillman stresses the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to the Greco-Roman culture (which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution). He cited St. Augustine, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife." 54 African churches and African Christians often remind their European brothers that the Church's ban on polygamy is a cultural tradition and not an authentic Christian injunction.

The Quran, too, allowed polygamy, but not without restrictions:

"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).

The Quran, contrary to the Bible, limited the maximum number of wives to four under the strict condition of treating the wives equally and justly. It should not be understood that the Quran is exhorting the believers to practice polygamy, or that polygamy is considered as an ideal. In other words, the Quran has "tolerated" or "allowed" polygamy, and no more, but why? Why is polygamy permissible ? The answer is simple: there are places and times in which there are compelling social and moral reasons for polygamy. As the above Quranic verse indicates, the issue of polygamy in Islam cannot be understood apart from community obligations towards orphans and widows. Islam as a universal religion suitable for all places and all times could not ignore these compelling obligations.

In most human societies, females outnumber males. In the U.S. there are, at least, eight million more women than men. In a country like Guinea there are 122 females for every 100 males. In Tanzania, there are 95.1 males per 100 females. 55 What should a society do towards such unbalanced sex ratios? There are various solutions, some might suggest celibacy, others would prefer female infanticide (which does happen in some societies in the world today !). Others may think the only outlet is that the society should tolerate all manners of sexual permissiveness: prostitution, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, etc. For other societies , like most African societies today, the most honorable outlet is to allow polygamous marriage as a culturally accepted and socially respected institution. The point that is often misunderstood in the West is that women in other cultures do not necessarily look at polygamy as a sign of women's degradation. For example, many young African brides , whether Christians or Muslims or otherwise, would prefer to marry a married man who has already proved himself to be a responsible husband. Many African wives urge their husbands to get a second wife so that they do not feel lonely. 56 A survey of over six thousand women, ranging in age from 15 to 59, conducted in the second largest city in Nigeria showed that 60 percent of these women would be pleased if their husbands took another wife. Only 23 percent expressed anger at the idea of sharing with another wife. Seventy-six percent of the women in a survey conducted in Kenya viewed polygamy positively. In a survey undertaken in rural Kenya, 25 out of 27 women considered polygamy to be better than monogamy. These women felt polygamy can be a happy and beneficial experience if the co-wives cooperate with each other. 57 Polygamy in most African societies is such a respectable institution that some Protestant churches are becoming more tolerant of it. A bishop of the Anglican Church in Kenya declared that, "Although monogamy may be ideal for the expression of love between husband and wife, the church should consider that in certain cultures polygyny is socially acceptable and that the belief that polygyny is contrary to Christianity is no longer tenable." 58 After a careful study of African polygamy, Reverend David Gitari of the Anglican Church has concluded that polygamy, as ideally practiced, is more Christian than divorce and remarriage as far as the abandoned wives and children are concerned. 59 I personally know of some highly educated African wives who, despite having lived in the West for many years, do not have any objections against polygamy. One of them, who lives in the U.S., solemnly exhorts her husband to get a second wife to help her in raising the kids.

The problem of the unbalanced sex ratios becomes truly problematic at times of war. Native American Indian tribes used to suffer highly unbalanced sex ratios after wartime losses. Women in these tribes, who in fact enjoyed a fairly high status, accepted polygamy as the best protection against indulgence in indecent activities. European settlers, without offering any other alternative, condemned this Indian polygamy as 'uncivilised'. 60 After the second world war, there were 7,300,000 more women than men in Germany (3.3 million of them were widows). There were 100 men aged 20 to 30 for every 167 women in that age group. 61 Many of these women needed a man not only as a companion but also as a provider for the household in a time of unprecedented misery and hardship. The soldiers of the victorious Allied Armies exploited these women's vulnerability. Many young girls and widows had liaisons with members of the occupying forces. Many American and British soldiers paid for their pleasures in cigarettes, chocolate, and bread. Children were overjoyed at the gifts these strangers brought. A 10 year old boy on hearing of such gifts from other children wished from all his heart for an 'Englishman' for his mother so that she need not go hungry any longer. 62 We have to ask our own conscience at this point: What is more dignifying to a woman? An accepted and respected second wife as in the native Indians' approach, or a virtual prostitute as in the 'civilised' Allies approach? In other words, what is more dignifying to a woman, the Quranic prescription or the theology based on the culture of the Roman Empire?

It is interesting to note that in an international youth conference held in Munich in 1948 the problem of the highly unbalanced sex ratio in Germany was discussed. When it became clear that no solution could be agreed upon, some participants suggested polygamy. The initial reaction of the gathering was a mixture of shock and disgust. However, after a careful study of the proposal, the participants agreed that it was the only possible solution. Consequently, polygamy was included among the conference final recommendations. 63

The world today possesses more weapons of mass destruction than ever before and the European churches might, sooner or later, be obliged to accept polygamy as the only way out. Father Hillman has thoughtfully recognized this fact, "It is quite conceivable that these genocidal techniques (nuclear, biological, chemical..) could produce so drastic an imbalance among the sexes that plural marriage would become a necessary means of survival....Then contrary to previous custom and law, an overriding natural and moral inclination might arise in favour of polygamy. In such a situation, theologians and church leaders would quickly produce weighty reasons and biblical texts to justify a new conception of marriage." 64

To the present day, polygamy continues to be a viable solution to some of the social ills of modern societies. The communal obligations that the Quran mentions in association with the permission of polygamy are more visible at present in some Western societies than in Africa. For example, In the United States today, there is a severe gender crisis in the black community. One out of every twenty young black males may die before reaching the age of 21. For those between 20 and 35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. 65 Besides, many young black males are unemployed, in jail, or on dope. 66 As a result, one in four black women, at age 40, has never married, as compared with one in ten white women. 67 Moreover, many young black females become single mothers before the age of 20 and find themselves in need of providers. The end result of these tragic circumstances is that an increasing number of black women are engaged in what is called 'man-sharing'. 68 That is, many of these hapless single black women are involved in affairs with married men. The wives are often unaware of the fact that other women are 'sharing' their husbands with them. Some observers of the crisis of man-sharing in the African American community strongly recommend consensual polygamy as a temporary answer to the shortage of black males until more comprehensive reforms in the American society at large are undertaken. 69 By consensual polygamy they mean a polygamy that is sanctioned by the community and to which all the parties involved have agreed, as opposed to the usually secret man-sharing which is detrimental both to the wife and to the community in general. The problem of man-sharing in the African American community was the topic of a panel discussion held at Temple University in Philadelphia on January 27, 1993. 70 Some of the speakers recommended polygamy as one potential remedy for the crisis. They also suggested that polygamy should not be banned by law, particularly in a society that tolerates prostitution and mistresses. The comment of one woman from the audience that African Americans needed to learn from Africa where polygamy was responsibly practiced elicited enthusiastic applause.

Philip Kilbride, an American anthropologist of Roman Catholic heritage, in his provocative book, Plural marriage for our time, proposes polygamy as a solution to some of the ills of the American society at large. He argues that plural marriage may serve as a potential alternative for divorce in many cases in order to obviate the damaging impact of divorce on many children. He maintains that many divorces are caused by the rampant extramarital affairs in the American society. According to Kilbride, ending an extramarital affair in a polygamous marriage, rather than in a divorce, is better for the children, "Children would be better served if family augmentation rather than only separation and dissolution were seen as options." Moreover, he suggests that other groups will also benefit from plural marriage such as: elderly women who face a chronic shortage of men and the African Americans who are involved in man-sharing. 71

In 1987, a poll conducted by the student newspaper at the university of California at Berkeley asked the students whether they agreed that men should be allowed by law to have more than one wife in response to a perceived shortage of male marriage candidates in California. Almost all of the students polled approved of the idea. One female student even stated that a polyganous marriage would fulfil her emotional and physical needs while giving her greater freedom than a monogamous union. 72 In fact, this same argument is also used by the few remaining fundamentalist Mormon women who still practice polygamy in the U.S. They believe that polygamy is an ideal way for a woman to have both a career and children since the wives help each other care for the children. 73

It has to be added that polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife. 74 The Bible, on the other hand, sometimes resorts to forcible polygamy. A childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married (see the "Plight of Widows" section),regardless of her consent (Genesis 38:8-10).

It should be noted that in many Muslim societies today the practice of polygamy is rare since the gap between the numbers of both sexes is not huge. One can, safely, say that the rate of polygamous marriages in the Muslim world is much less than the rate of extramarital affairs in the West. In other words, men in the Muslim world today are far more strictly monogamous than men in the Western world.

Billy Graham, the eminent Christian evangelist has recognized this fact: "Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present-day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but actually they practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community." 75

It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern 'civilised' world.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:12pm
Exodus 20:12

 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 6:14pm
THE VEIL

Finally, let us shed some light on what is considered in the West as the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the Judaeo-Christian tradition? Let us set the record straight. According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book, The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature, it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free. 76 He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty." Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the woman's hair is considered "nudity".77 Dr. Brayer also mentions that "During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense." Dr. Brayer also explains that veil of the Jewish woman was not always considered a sign of modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of noble women. It also represented a woman's inaccessibility as a sanctified possession of her husband. 78

The veil signified a woman's self-respect and social status. Women of lower classes would often wear the veil to give the impression of a higher standing. The fact that the veil was the sign of nobility was the reason why prostitutes were not permitted to cover their hair in the old Jewish society. However, prostitutes often wore a special headscarf in order to look respectable. 79 Jewish women in Europe continued to wear veils until the nineteenth century when their lives became more intermingled with the surrounding secular culture. The external pressures of the European life in the nineteenth century forced many of them to go out bare-headed. Some Jewish women found it more convenient to replace their traditional veil with a wig as another form of hair covering. Today, most pious Jewish women do not cover their hair except in the synagogue. 80 Some of them, such as the Hasidic sects, still use the wig. 81

What about the Christian tradition? It is well known that Catholic Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that is not all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil:

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

St. Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of the authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for man. St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church. 82 Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is that "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God", which is the same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament. 83

>From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam did not invent the head cover. However, Islam did endorse it. The Quran urges the believing men and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the bosom:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31).

The Quran is quite clear that the veil is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Quran is still clear:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (33:59).

This is the whole point, modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty is protection. Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women. The Islamic veil is only a sign of modesty with the purpose of protecting women, all women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 6:19pm

Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax punishment for rape in the Bible:

" If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deut. 22:28-30)

One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape, or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her and live with him until he dies? Another question that also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude?

Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self restraint. We would say: fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough protection, then why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ? If Education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like Queen's has a 'walk home service' mainly for female students on campus? If self restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace reported on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States! I could not believe my eyes when I read the following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:

  • In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes,
  • 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives,
  • 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime,
  • 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university, and
  • A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught.

Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow even worse day after day and, unfortunately, women alone will be paying the price. Actually, we all suffer but as K. Gibran has said, "...for the person who receives the blows is not like the one who counts them." 84 Therefore, a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress is, in the end, simply harming itself.

It is one of the great ironies of our world today that the very same headscarf revered as a sign of 'holiness' when worn for the purpose of showing the authority of man by Catholic Nuns, is reviled as a sign of 'oppression' when worn for the purpose of protection by Muslim women.

17. EPILOGUE

The one question all the non-Muslims, who had read an earlier version of this study, had in common was: do Muslim women in the Muslim world today receive this noble treatment described here? The answer, unfortunately, is: No. Since this question is inevitable in any discussion concerning the status of women in Islam, we have to elaborate on the answer in order to provide the reader with the complete picture.

It has to be made clear first that the vast differences among Muslim societies make most generalizations too simplistic. There is a wide spectrum of attitudes towards women in the Muslim world today. These attitudes differ from one society to another and within each individual society. Nevertheless, certain general trends are discernible. Almost all Muslim societies have, to one degree or another, deviated from the ideals of Islam with respect to the status of women. These deviations have, for the most part, been in one of two opposite directions. The first direction is more conservative, restrictive, and traditions-oriented, while the second is more liberal and Western-oriented.

The societies that have digressed in the first direction treat women according to the customs and traditions inherited from their forebears. These traditions usually deprive women of many rights granted to them by Islam. Besides, women are treated according to standards far different from those applied to men. This discrimination pervades the life of any female: she is received with less joy at birth than a boy; she is less likely to go to school; she might be deprived any share of her family's inheritance; she is under continuous surveillance in order not to behave immodestly while her brother's immodest acts are tolerated; she might even be killed for committing what her male family members usually boast of doing; she has very little say in family affairs or community interests; she might not have full control over her property and her marriage gifts; and finally as a mother she herself would prefer to produce boys so that she can attain a higher status in her community.

On the other hand, there are Muslim societies (or certain classes within some societies) that have been swept over by the Western culture and way of life. These societies often imitate unthinkingly whatever they receive from the West and usually end up adopting the worst fruits of Western civilization. In these societies, a typical "modern" woman's top priority in life is to enhance her physical beauty. Therefore, she is often obsessed with her body's shape, size, and weight. She tends to care more about her body than her mind and more about her charms than her intellect. Her ability to charm, attract, and excite is more valued in the society than her educational achievements, intellectual pursuits, and social work. One is not expected to find a copy of the Quran in her purse since it is full of cosmetics that accompany her wherever she goes. Her spirituality has no room in a society preoccupied with her attractiveness. Therefore, she would spend her life striving more to realize her femininity than to fulfil her humanity.

Why did Muslim societies deviate from the ideals of Islam? There is no easy answer. A penetrating explanation of the reasons why Muslims have not adhered to the Quranic guidance with respect to women would be beyond the scope of this study. It has to be made clear, however, that Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice. This gap is not a recent phenomenon. It has been there for centuries and has been widening day after day. This ever widening gap has had disastrous consequences on the Muslim world manifested in almost all aspects of life: political tyranny and fragmentation, economic backwardness, social injustice, scientific bankruptcy, intellectual stagnation, etc. The non-Islamic status of women in the Muslim world today is merely a symptom of a deeper malady. Any reform in the current status of Muslim women is not expected to be fruitful if not accompanied with more comprehensive reforms of the Muslim societies' whole way of life. The Muslim world is in need for a renaissance that will bring it closer to the ideals of Islam and not further from them. To sum up, the notion that the poor status of Muslim women today is because of Islam is an utter misconception. The problems of Muslims in general are not due to too much attachment to Islam, they are the culmination of a long and deep detachment from it.

It has, also, to be re-emphasized that the purpose behind this comparative study is not, by any means, to defame Judaism or Christianity. The position of women in the Judaeo-Christian tradition might seem frightening by our late twentieth century standards. Nevertheless, it has to be viewed within the proper historical context. In other words, any objective assessment of the position of women in the Judaeo-Christian tradition has to take into account the historical circumstances in which this tradition developed. There can be no doubt that the views of the Rabbis and the Church Fathers regarding women were influenced by the prevalent attitudes towards women in their societies. The Bible itself was written by different authors at different times. These authors could not have been impervious to the values and the way of life of the people around them. For example, the adultery laws of the Old Testament are so biased against women that they defy rational explanation by our mentality. However, if we consider the fact that the early Jewish tribes were obsessed with their genetic homogeneity and extremely eager to define themselves apart from the surrounding tribes and that only sexual misconduct by the married females of the tribes could threaten these cherished aspirations, we should then be able to understand, but not necessarily sympathize with, the reasons for this bias. Also, the diatribes of the Church Fathers against women should not be detached from the context of the misogynist Greco-Roman culture in which they lived. It would be unfair to evaluate the Judaeo-Christian legacy without giving any consideration to the relevant historical context.

In fact, a proper understanding of the Judaeo-Christian historical context is also crucial for understanding the significance of the contributions of Islam to world history and human civilization. The Judaeo-Christian tradition had been influenced and shaped by the environments, conditions, and cultures in which it had existed. By the seventh century C.E., this influence had distorted the original divine message revealed to Moses and Jesus beyond recognition. The poor status of women in the Judaeo-Christian world by the seventh century is just one case in point. Therefore, there was a great need for a new divine message that would guide humanity back to the straight path. The Quran described the mission of the new Messenger as a release for Jews and Christians from the heavy burdens that had been upon them: "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures--In the Law and the Gospel-- For he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them" (7:157).

Therefore, Islam should not be viewed as a rival tradition to Judaism or Christianity. It has to be regarded as the consummation, completion, and perfection of the divine messages that had been revealed before it.

At the end of this study, I would like to offer the following advice to the global Muslim community. So many Muslim women have been denied their basic Islamic rights for so long. The mistakes of the past have to be corrected. To do that is not a favor, it is a duty incumbent upon all Muslims. The worldwide Muslim community have to issue a charter of Muslim women's rights based on the instructions of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet of Islam. This charter must give Muslim women all the rights endowed to them by their Creator. Then, all the necessary means have to be developed in order to ensure the proper implementation of the charter. This charter is long overdue, but it is better late than never. If Muslims worldwide will not guarantee the full Islamic rights of their mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters, who else will ?

Furthermore, we must have the courage to confront our past and reject outright the traditions and customs of our forefathers whenever they contravene the precepts of Islam. Did the Quran not severely criticize the pagan Arabs for blindly following the traditions of their ancestors? On the other hand, we have to develop a critical attitude towards whatever we receive from the West or from any other culture. Interaction with and learning from other cultures is an invaluable experience. The Quran has succinctly considered this interaction as one of the purposes of creation: " O mankind We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other" (49:13). It goes without saying, however, that blind imitation of others is a sure sign of an utter lack of self-esteem.

It is to the non-Muslim reader, Jewish, Christian, or otherwise, that these final words are dedicated. It is bewildering why the religion that had revolutionized the status of women is being singled out and denigrated as so repressive of women. This perception about Islam is one of the most widespread myths in our world today. This myth is being perpetuated by a ceaseless barrage of sensational books, articles, media images, and Hollywood movies. The inevitable outcome of these incessant misleading images has been total misunderstanding and fear of anything related to Islam. This negative portrayal of Islam in the world media has to end if we are to live in a world free from all traces of discrimination, prejudice, and misunderstanding. Non-Muslims ought to realize the existence of a wide gap between Muslims' beliefs and practices and the simple fact that the actions of Muslims do not necessarily represent Islam. To label the status of women in the Muslim world today as "Islamic" is as far from the truth as labelling the position of women in the West today as "Judaeo-Christian". With this understanding in mind, Muslims and non-Muslims should start a process of communication and dialogue in order to remove all misconceptions, suspicions, and fears. A peaceful future for the human family necessitates such a dialogue.

Islam should be viewed as a religion that had immensely improved the status of women and had granted them many rights that the modern world has recognized only this century. Islam still has so much to offer today's woman: dignity, respect, and protection in all aspects and all stages of her life from birth until death in addition to the recognition, the balance, and means for the fulfilment of all her spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional needs. No wonder most of those who choose to become Muslims in a country like Britain are women. In the U.S. women converts to Islam outnumber male converts 4 to 1. 85 Islam has so much to offer our world which is in great need of moral guidance and leadership. Ambassador Herman Eilts, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people." Yes, something is right about Islam and it is time to find that out. I hope this study is a step on this direction.

This same thread can be viewed at this http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/women3.html - link. We also do have its references, at the end. Kindly, share it with all those, who misconcept women in Islam.
 
May Allah swt guide us all. Ameen


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 8:19pm
Seek, couldn't you have just posted the link anyway.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:57pm
But that would not result in "SEARCH" option na Angel. Smile. We can get many words, in this thread while searching.
 
Actually, as said before i was very happy to know the status of women in Islam comparitively. If the link, would have  been pasted, not all do click it. And slowly, it may get down to another page, by new topics coming in. Atleast, we shall be able to keep this thread over the top, for about 2-3 days and this shall enable many readers, made me to paste it.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:24am
First of all, I'll admit . . . I have yet to read the entire posts. And would like to thank SeeksHidayath for taking the time and effort to share with us what he read. I really really appreciate it. And it definitly interests me, so I will be reading all that in liesure (women & religion is a topic that gr8ly interests me :p )
 
On another note . . . with all due respect, My humble opinion is that I avoid starting/initiating discussions based on comparitive religion. That is because it seems like muslims are going on the offensive and pointing out wrongs in other religions. And this creates discord, antagonism, feelings of intolerance etc. I am sure my non-muslim brothers/sisters dislike hearing such things abt thier religion - just as I dislike posts going on the offensive against islam.
 
The only time I think its ok to post all the above info is when one is responding to claims made by non-muslims against islam. Or when ppl defame Islam or bring up thier reservations about Islam. Then I think it is appropriate to respond likewise and quote thier books.
 
But in the usually/in the majority of cases, Muslims should avoid bringing up controversies like that . . .instead should focus on the common points.
 
Because Allah Himself says in the Qur'an
"...Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you"... -Quran 3.64

Quran 6:108: And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides All�h, lest they insult All�h wrongfully without knowledge.
 
Thus one should try to initiate by coming to common terms first, before moving onto the differences.
 
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:51am


Treatment of Women

In Islam, a man can have up to four wives at the same time (Sura 4:3). In addition, a man is given the right to beat his disobedient wife until she obeys (Sura 4:34, Bukhari 8:68). According the the Quran, "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made some of them to excel others...and (as to) those on whose part you fear rebellion, admonish them, and leave them alone in beds apart, and beat them."

An example of Muhammad himself beating his wife is documented in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, number 2127. (Note, the Arabic word for beat is the same word as how you would treat a slave or a camel.)

Muhammad himself actually had thirteen wives, two concubines/slaves, and four women of uncertain relationships. Of note, a Sura conveniently appeared to give Muhammad an exception to the 4-wife rule (Sura 33:50). One of his wives was but nine years old when he consumated his marriage with her. 

Also of interest, Muhammad married his daughter-in-law Zainab (Bukhari 9:516-518). He arranged for his adopted son Zaid to divorce Zainab so he could marry her. The divorce was prompted by the prophet's admiration for Zainab's beauty. Faced with the refusal of Zaid to dissolve his marriage, Muhammad had another convenient revelation from Allah, which not only commanded Zaid to give up his wife to Muhammad, but also decreed that there was no evil in a father-in-law taking his daughter-in-law away from his own adopted son (Sura 33:36-38).

Men are superior to women in Islamic teaching. (See Suras 2:228, 4:34. Note: English translations vary considerably here. For example, in 4:34 some use the term "superior," while others say that men are "maintainers" or "guardians" of women.) In Islamic law, a woman's testimony is worth half that of men because the female mind is considered deficient (Sura 2:282, Bukhari 3:826). Women are only entitled to inherit half of what men do (Sura 4:11).

Prostitution is common in some Muslim countries, especially Africa. Some Muslims justify prostitution by marrying the woman for the night, which seems to be okay as long as they stay within the limit of four wives at one time. Prostitution may be partly a result of the attitude in Muslim societies that men can do whatever they want, while women have limited rights.

The Quran and hadiths teach that it is morally acceptable to force women to have sex with their captors (Sura 70:29-30; also Bukhari 3: 432, 436, 5:459, 7:22, 8:600; 9:506; also Muslim Hadiths numbers 3371 and 3433). According to a reliable witness we personally know who grew up in Pakistan, rape is not prosecuted even today in the Muslim world in some circumstances, especially if the victim is a non-Muslim.

Men can divorce their wives in Islam, but the wife has limited divorce rights (Sura 2:228). And interestingly, Islam teaches that the majority of people in hell are women (Bukhari 1:28, 1:301, and 2:161). According to the prophet of Islam, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."

In comparison, fundamentalist Christianity condones none of the above abuses of women. While Old Testament figures had multiple wives, this is seen as sinful behavior. Jesus insisted on the sanctity of marriage with one woman ( http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam# - Mark 10:5-12 ).

Two books of the Old Testament are named for (and are about) women. Women play a venerated and prominent role in the New Testament, especially in view of the low status afforded women in the culture in which Jesus lived ( http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam# - Matthew 5:32 ; http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam# - 1 Corinthians 11:11-12 ; http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam# - Galatians 3:28 ; http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam# - Ephesians 5:25-33 .) According to the Bible, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."

Carrying out this teaching, the history of Christianity has elevated the position of women. For example, it was largely through the efforts of Christian missionaries in India that stopped the horrible practice of women being burned on their husband's funeral pyre.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 9:01am
 Believer- You guys certainly have the knack to corrupt the Scriptures.

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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 7:55pm
LOL!!  What kind of rebutal is that?  LOL!  Where I have corrupted the scripture?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Carrying out this teaching, the history of Christianity has elevated the position of women. For example, it was largely through the efforts of Christian missionaries in India that stopped the horrible practice of women being burned on their husband's funeral pyre.

 
I don't doubt really that Jesus was kind to woman and possibly treated them with equal respect.
I also don't doubt the above example, But when the Pope proclaims that Bishops and priest will be excommunicated for ordaining women into the church as leaders as clergy, priest - leading services like mass, then one has to wonder.
 
I also don't see female sheiks leading services in mosque either. Both religions are too male dominated in leadership if you ask me, until then equality can be talked about much more.
 
Both religions can point out that women had this or have this but until leadership is given and at the highest level, and that God can communicated thru women and not just men, women will be at a lower level. Religion is for all, all should have a say.
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Carrying out this teaching, the history of Christianity has elevated the position of women. For example, it was largely through the efforts of Christian missionaries in India that stopped the horrible practice of women being burned on their husband's funeral pyre.

 
I don't doubt really that Jesus was kind to woman and possibly treated them with equal respect.
I also don't doubt the above example, But when the Pope proclaims that Bishops and priest will be excommunicated for ordaining women into the church as leaders as clergy, priest - leading services like mass, then one has to wonder.
 
I also don't see female sheiks leading services in mosque either. Both religions are too male dominated in leadership if you ask me, until then equality can be talked about much more.
 
Both religions can point out that women had this or have this but until leadership is given and at the highest level, and that God can communicated thru women and not just men, women will be at a lower level. Religion is for all, all should have a say.
 

 

 
 
Angel,
sometimes we think we are right in our thoughts, God all knowing of course knows more than us. Leadership role in Islam or Judeo-Christian faiths is given to man, not that it means inequality but for some reasons. Don't you see, that God made us male and female, just that don't click to you? Don't you see the differances in our appearances, the way we think, act and function. Equality does not mean, each one do exactly same thing. If that was the purpose, God would not make us male and female.
The head of a household in majority of the world cultures is man, not because they are all Muslims or Christians, but because that is given in our nature for some reason, which if we refect will come to us.
I want to be clear and not misunderstood that I am not professing unequal rights between man and woman, just different roles.
Here in the West too, generally speaking man is still the head of the household, women still bear children and look after them, the nurturer of the family, different roles.
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 7:34am
 An example of Muhammad himself beating his wife is documented in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, number 2127. (Note, the Arabic word for beat is the same word as how you would treat a slave or a camel.)
 
 
 Book 4, Number 2127:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them) ? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

   Does this hadith show you the Prophet treating his wife like a slave, camel?
 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:


An example of Muhammad himself beating his wife is documented in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, number 2127. (Note, the Arabic word for beat is the same word as how you would treat a slave or a camel.)

Aaishah (Radhiallahu 'Anha) said: "Allaah's Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah(Jihad). Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman."  [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee graded it Saheeh.]
 
The same Aisha who narrated the other Hadith, said that Prophet Muhammad never struck a woman or servant. Obviousley she did not consider that other incident as a beating/striking! But as a reprimand ! Expression of feelings via body-contact is normal! Sometimes when ppl (even husbands/wives) are angry at each other, especially in public, they squeeze the offending partner's arm tightly,
indicating displeasure. Some ppl shrug the other's shoulders with thier hands when they are cross. . .though physical, this act is hardly considered violent or a beating.  
 
 
Prophet Muhammad's attitude towards beating women/wives:
 
"Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?" (Bukhari and Muslim).
 
The Prophet, saaws, advised one Muslim woman, whose name was Fatimah bint Qais, not to marry a man because the man was known for beating women:

Hadith - Sahih Muslim
"I went to the Prophet and said: Abul Jahm and Mu'awiah have proposed to marry me. The Prophet (by way of advice) said: As to Mu'awiah he is very poor and Abul Jahm is accustomed to beating women"

Had wife-beating been a norm, or accepted/encouraged practise by Islam during that time, Prophet Muhammad would never have advised the lady to not marry a man who was prone to wife-beating.
 
 
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"
 
There is another instance in Sahih Muslim, where a man reportedly slapped his black female slave. Prophet Muhammad commanded that he manumit (free her) in compensation. Not only was she black, she was a woman and a slave, all three attributes that made a personin those days insignificant & vulnerable to mistreat.
 
 
 

Ibn Sa`d in al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in Hilyat al-Awliya' and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak narrated from Umm Salama: "The Prophet (pbuh)was in my house and there was a siwak (toothstick/toothbrush) in his hand. He called for Wasifa [the servant-girl] to come to him or to her [i.e. to serve Umm Salama] but she tarried until anger was visible on his face. So Umm Salama went out to her and found her playing with an animal. She said to her: "You are playing while the Messenger of Allah is calling you?" She replied: "No, by the one who sent you with truth! I did not hear you." Whereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Were it not for fear of exaction (qawad) on the Day of Resurrection, I should surely beat you  with this toothstick."(la'awja`tuki)

Wow, how violent, huh? Not only did he NOT BEAT the servant, his scolding was such that he threatened to beat her with a toothstick! And even though he was talking about using a toothstick, he didnt because he feared Allah on the day of judgement for such an action. This hardly suggests that Prophet Muhammad was nazubillah a wife-beater NOR that he encouraged it/supported it. 
 
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Saladin Saladin wrote:

 An example of Muhammad himself beating his wife is documented in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, number 2127. (Note, the Arabic word for beat is the same word as how you would treat a slave or a camel.)
 
 
 
First of all, the Prophet was clearly upset at Aisha because he thought she was doubting/questioning (for lack of a better word) the Prophet's actions. Which is why his immediate question was "Did you think Allah & His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?" . . .He felt that Aisha had not trusted him enough, which is why he was upset. Surely that shows how much he loved her, that he was upset at her not trusting him enough to wait for him to return, rather than following him quietly.
 
And her pain might have been emotional, she may have been hurt inside, that the Prophet was upset at her. And that is what caused her pain, not physical discomfort. Because her other Hadith clearly states that the Prophet never struck a woman. This was obviousley NOT a beating by any standards, not even a 'strike'. Because Aisha obviousley did not think it was, in the other hadith.
 
Imam Nawawi in his Sharh states that The word "lahada" according to the lexicographers means, "to push" (dafa'a). And pushing, is again a sign of bieng upset at someone. Often when spouses 'push' another, with one or two, its simply a gesture, or slight force. It doesnt have to cause pain, or discomfort. The usage of the word "struck" is not a correct translation.

Secondly, this calls to an important matter that is related to the Hand imposition of the Prophet - Allah bless him - because it is a gesture associated with driving away evil influence (wasw�s) and conferring blessing as the following reports show: Jarir ibn Abdullah Al Bajal� was sent by the Prophet - Allah bless him - on a mission to destroy Dhu Al Kahalasa, the idol-house of Khatham, nicknamed the Yemenite Kaba. Jarr narrates:  

"I went along with a hundred and fifty horsemen but I could not sit steadily on horse. I mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah - Allah bless and greet  him - who then struck his hand on my chest so hard that I could see the trace of his fingers on it, saying: 'O Allah! Grant him steadfastness and make him a guide of righteousness and a rightly-guided one!'   (Bukhari and Muslim)  

The above hadith clearly shows that Jarir was not at all hurt by the action, but it was a gesture/expression of the Prophet. And the Prophet is not even angry/cross in this particular instance, so no question of violence.




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 6:14pm
Angel - there are women ministers in Protestant churches.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Originally posted by Saladin Saladin wrote:

 An example of Muhammad himself beating his wife is documented in the Sahih Muslim Hadith, number 2127. (Note, the Arabic word for beat is the same word as how you would treat a slave or a camel.)
 
 
 
First of all, the Prophet was clearly upset at Aisha because he thought she was doubting/questioning (for lack of a better word) the Prophet's actions. Which is why his immediate question was "Did you think Allah & His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?" . . .He felt that Aisha had not trusted him enough, which is why he was upset. Surely that shows how much he loved her, that he was upset at her not trusting him enough to wait for him to return, rather than following him quietly.
 
And her pain might have been emotional, she may have been hurt inside, that the Prophet was upset at her. And that is what caused her pain, not physical discomfort. Because her other Hadith clearly states that the Prophet never struck a woman. This was obviousley NOT a beating by any standards, not even a 'strike'. Because Aisha obviousley did not think it was, in the other hadith.
 
Imam Nawawi in his Sharh states that The word "lahada" according to the lexicographers means, "to push" (dafa'a). And pushing, is again a sign of bieng upset at someone. Often when spouses 'push' another, with one or two, its simply a gesture, or slight force. It doesnt have to cause pain, or discomfort. The usage of the word "struck" is not a correct translation.

Secondly, this calls to an important matter that is related to the Hand imposition of the Prophet - Allah bless him - because it is a gesture associated with driving away evil influence (wasw�s) and conferring blessing as the following reports show: Jarir ibn Abdullah Al Bajal� was sent by the Prophet - Allah bless him - on a mission to destroy Dhu Al Kahalasa, the idol-house of Khatham, nicknamed the Yemenite Kaba. Jarr narrates:  

"I went along with a hundred and fifty horsemen but I could not sit steadily on horse. I mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah - Allah bless and greet  him - who then struck his hand on my chest so hard that I could see the trace of his fingers on it, saying: 'O Allah! Grant him steadfastness and make him a guide of righteousness and a rightly-guided one!'   (Bukhari and Muslim)  

The above hadith clearly shows that Jarir was not at all hurt by the action, but it was a gesture/expression of the Prophet. And the Prophet is not even angry/cross in this particular instance, so no question of violence.


 
 
 
 
 The first part's looking like I was sharing Believer's thought. Astaghfirallah! That apart, jazakallah khair sister for your fine post. I thought any reasonable person reading the hadith 2127 would realise that Believer's accusation was idiotic but I think your post would enlighten the idiots too.


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Angel - there are women ministers in Protestant churches.
 
However they are not endorsed by mainstream christianity, and are a modern innovation - majority of christian ministers do not agree with having female ministers. . .


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:00pm

But believer, why are there no woman - pastors. And also its said women shud keep silence in churches -- ? Here's a verse

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

Its a shame to speak in church ---
 
Women is Islam are allowed to lead prayers , Angel. They can lead other women but not men. There are many reasons as why can;t they lead men. Firstly been, hen a woman recites Qur'an in the prayers in a beautiful voice, this also is attractive to men and can make them concentrate less on the message than the messenger. Secondly there is a order in which we are to congregate. First rows will be of men, then children and last are women. So how can a muslimah, stand first and lead ?
 
Further Friday prayers are n't obligatory to women. So they may or may not attend them.  The best prayers of women are when offered in there houses. All these things make it clear.  However, there are many scholars , infact Ayesha RA was scholar of all scholars. She educated many great men, from behind the screen. Khayr,  its not that muslim women are been pushed back, but to save the ummah from fitnahs, this is the best and perfect solution in Islam.
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:38pm

Seek, I understand what you are saying and others, but if you want equality in religion then some things need to change, and it begins in letting women leading prayer, mass/church service. And you cannot always play the excuse of "women are attractive creatures and would distract men"

And especially islam and christianity it IS very male dominated, I know there have been small achievements for women and even there its not easy because men make it hard.
 
Chrysalis is right woman in leadership is not endorsed despite a few women in high positions. The Pope will not endorse it.
 
Religion for me, is something to be balanced not to be unbalanced and the Abrahamic religions do not do that. It is quite unbalannced.
 
And I know men are different in terms of physicality, thinking and doing, but in religion and leading there is some things that can be done in terms of equality, in religion there needs to be a balanced. It's not about making it a rule, its about giving a choice to whoever wishes or its their calling to be able to do. God speaks to both not just one. Even God here in the religions is represented in male form. I know islams view of God is neither but in refering its masculine presented. 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

 and it begins in letting women leading prayer, mass/church service. And you cannot always play the excuse of "women are attractive creatures and would distract men"

And especially islam and christianity it IS very male dominated, I know there have been small achievements for women and even there its not easy because men make it hard.
 
 
 
As far as the all the statements in the Bible, Torah that Brer Seeks mentioned. . . I do not blame the religions for them, because we as Muslims believe that Allah has always sent down the same message. I do not even blame present day followers, I believe the fault lies with the  Religous leaders of older days, who corrupted the religions with thier own versions and traditions, and made a hotch-potch of God's word.
 
Angel:  When it comes to religion, Islam is not exactly male dominated. And the reason why women cannot lead prayers in Mosques/male congregations is because when women are indisposed, i.e. menstruating, pregnant, post-pregnancy - they are not able to perform prayers. Leading a congregation is a regular (5-times a day) task, throughout the year. And women cannot miss out on leading the congregation during thier indisposed days.
 
Secondly, When you are leading a congregation, there are all sorts of ppl in them . . good, bad, perverts, etc etc. During prayers, one has to go thru various positions, bending over, bowing down etc, this may expose parts of the body or make them look obvious. . . you cannot ensure that the men behind the women do not leer at her or, or lose the purpose of the prayer.
 
During absences in the congregation as Imam, 7-6 days EVERY month,  the entire neighborhood willl find out when the lady is menstruating etc. . .and that isnt something the entire neighborhood/congregation needs to know!
 
Apart from that . . .the women may lead the men in other aspects in Islam. For example, they can be Ulema's (Religious Scholars) and give Fatwas . . . which the males will also have to follow. They may lead in religon, teach religion both to men/women. As long as Hijab is not being compromised and proper Islamic ettiqqutte is bieng followed. They can also sit on the Mosque's administrative board.
 
Women can lead thier OWN prayers of a female congregation. . . .A man doesnt neccessarily have to step in and lead.
 
Hence, just bcz the nighborhood Imam is a male, doesnt mean Islam forces women to stay behind men always! :) They can excel men in any field. . .even religion.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 2:12am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

During prayers, one has to go thru various positions, bending over, bowing down etc, this may expose parts of the body or make them look obvious. . . you cannot ensure that the men behind the women do not leer at her or, or lose the purpose of the prayer.
 
So what happens if there is an attractive sheik or priest Wink the same goes for the opposite.
 
Quote During absences in the congregation as Imam, 7-6 days EVERY month,  the entire neighborhood willl find out when the lady is menstruating etc. . .and that isnt something the entire neighborhood/congregation needs to know!
 
Not all women disappear many do work through their menstration. Every woman is different in how they handle it. It is up to the woman if she is able to perform. I know this isn't going to happen because women aren't allowed to touch the quran. As for pregnancy and maternity leave, well I'm sure another person can step in, like when a priest is ill or has to go away for some reason.  
Like I said its not about having it as a rule but let it be a choice, I'm not saying women have to but have a choice.
 
Quote They can excel men in any field. . .even religion.
 
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion! Wink


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:14am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

 
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion! Wink
 
Trouble or problems occur when we mere human beings go against the command of God AlMighty - Our Creator. God had given men the special position of being leaders of women. And God also had given women the ability to conceive.
 
Each and everyone of us has a duty to perform, and if we perform it in accordance to God's commands, InshaAllah, there will be no problems at all.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:04am
 
  It is important to remember that we have the Quran to guide us. The Quran deals well with the women giving them good rights. It is a relief to the ladies not to lead any prayers. They are exempted from many other duties too. Some examples of such things can be found in the Torah too.
 
 There is no need to discuss the status of women in christianity because they do not have any laws. But comparison can be made with the Jews. I am sure the laws for the ladies in Islam ( take into account the leadership and laws of marriage and divorce and inheritance, all such things) are excellent. They are respected. It is admitted they have a soul.
 
 It is also admitted that the soul has no gender. There is every opportunity in Islam for the ladies to lead an honorable respectable life and to progress spiritually to any height.
 
 Now coming to the important topic of leading the prayers, we have no worries. We do not need the ladies to lead our prayers for any reason. There is no need. Most important is the Sunnah (the practice) of the holy prophet. He practically translated the whole Quran for us by his own examples. In his time, ladies were not leading any prayers. So that is the end of it.
 
 The merits and demerits of such things can be discussed ad infinitum. There will be no clear result. Islam has a complete system of prayers day and night, all over the world. It is an examplary system not found in any other religion.. There are mosques and Imams. Imam is a must. Prayer cannot be performed without an Imam. But the requirement of the Imam does not limit it to the performance of 5 time daily prayers. It goes beyond that. It is a meaningful leadership necessitating love and obedience to the leader.
 
 The Imam has to be an all time spiritual leader. Ladies cannot be available for those duties at all times.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:56am

Where are the women?

6/25/2008 - Social Family Education - Article Ref: YM0806-3600

 

 

From the pulpit to the preachers, many often proclaim Islam's liberation of women 1400 years ago. After all Islam did recognize that women possessed souls -this acknowledged only over the past 100 years in Christianity and Islam did give women the right to vote -yet another relatively recent phenomena in Western society. We are quick to convince skeptics of Islam's superiority in that the first martyr in Islam was a woman, the first to accept Islam was Khadijah, the first nurse was Rufaida, that the one from whom we have learned one third of our faith was Aisha. (May Allah be pleased with them all.)

 

And why should we not feel proud of such a legacy when this legacy has produced scholarship and numerous examples of leadership, virtue and excellence. Women who, for all intents and purposes, outshone many of their male counterparts despite their "gender."

 

However if we were to take a critical look at our community today we would be hard-pressed to find the likes of Aisha, Fatima, Nusaybah and many others. We would first have to look behind the barriers erected in the masajid, or call on them at their homes where they have been relegated to housework by the male-dominated and chauvinistic practices that have permeated the Muslim community.

 

Virtue today as imposed (or should I say "encouraged") upon Muslim women dictates that a woman should be fully covered (the more the better), that she stays at home and raises the children and fulfill her husband's every wish and desire. It is better that she stays inside than walk outside lest she be a temptress and cause someone to commit sin by looking at her, that she should be silent because her voice is her cover. Should she have questions, it is best that she write them and "fly them" over the barriers so that someone would by chance pick it up and read it and perhaps give her an answer.

 

We the men, the "proper leaders" know that women come from the rib of man and that it is bent and cannot be made straight, that women are highly emotional and of course have that "menstrual thing", which incapacitates their ability to make proper decisions and to function in a "normal way". There is no way that they can contribute to Islamic work because their voices and "grace" make them weaknesses for men and so it is in keeping with piety that we shut them out and lock them away. After all, men being the rational thinkers are capable of making decisions for women who are in constant need of our superior knowledge.

 

Hence we do not need them on the boards of our institutions, we fail to put them in leadership positions because it is not compatible with their "feminine nature". As one imam once said, they may start to "fraternize with the men". In keeping with this, we do not really need to give them a big space at the mosque because they should pray at home. Should we be so generous as to offer them some space, we must ensure that it is fully sealed so that there is not enough ventilation and that they are trapped within the confines of limited space with 20 crying babies. It is ok if they don't hear anything because they don't really need that much knowledge, even though the lap of the mother is the first school of the ummah. As long as we don't hear or see them, then all is well.

 

We should not shame them by giving them the ability to communicate their ideas, thoughts or wishes because we already know them. So we are locking them up for their own good. Anyone who dares to question this must be outside of the proper understanding of Islam. There seems to be some discrepancy between what is said on the pulpit about the excellence of the earlier women and how it translates to reality for our sisters. It has further allowed the perpetuation of blatant double standards in terms of what women and men can and cannot do. Usually men can engage in numerous activities, which if done by women, would cause their commitment to Islam to be questioned.

 

Women comprise about half of our community, yet they must still compete to have their voices heard, to have space, to be able to go to functions that take into consideration that they need to bring their children. More often than not, when there are issues involving our sisters, they are "dealt with" by the men. When any sisters dare to challenge this, they automatically are branded as western-styled feminists who are trying to sully the sanctity of Islamic values and ideals.

 

Yet if one were to look on campuses and in general community work the faith based work of this community is being carried on the shoulders of Muslim women. Many whom would ordinarily be silenced are finding their niches and are doing their bit to fulfill their covenant in enjoining right and forbidding evil and in spreading this deen. In fact, women in our community are the flag-bearers of Islam, particularly those who wear hijab because they are easily identifiable. When walking down the street, it is those whom we notice as being Muslim and those who are approached and asked about Islam.

 

We tend to answer in utopian terms, when asked about our glorious past and ignore the wrongdoing that has been taking place today. It behooves us (men) to believe that we can be wrong or may have wrong understandings of the seerah (biography of Prophet Muhammad) and the place of women in society.

 

It would appear though that having shut women out of the community has allowed them now to approach Islam and Islamic work with less baggage than men. Men have inherited much cultural baggage that they still keep with them today, cultural practices that have become engrained in our daily practices as being Islamic. As Muslim women return to the authentic understanding of the Qur'an and Seerah, they are in a better position to take on this work and fulfill its requirements.

 

Islamic work in North America and the world will never be successful until women are completely integrated within the framework of leadership, decision-making and shura. While no one is arguing for "free intermingling" or a neglect of duties of motherhood or the negation of fiqh (and its proper application) there is a need for discussion and critical deconstruction of some of the cultural practices that have become mainstays in our community.

 

The argument that the time of the prophet was different and now is a time of fitna holds no weight, especially when one considers that the earliest generation of Muslims was in one of the most corrupt societies that existed. Yet women played a vibrant part of its growth and development. They were consulted when decisions were to be made, they were included in matters affecting society's growth and development, some were teachers and others were poets, others fought in war, all this, while still following Allah's commands and the examples of his prophet. There are no shortages of examples of this in the seerah, though they tend to be ignored.

 

We are quick to point to the fact that we are leaders and have the "last say". Perhaps there is a need to analyze our understanding of leadership. Is a leader one who ignores the needs of others, makes all the decisions and is scared of debate and consultation? The prophet peace be upon him was the opposite of this. He was the best of leaders as he consulted with others and led by example. He was most kind and in fact said that "the one who is best, is the one who is best to his family and I am the best to my family". It may be that we are afraid that women will perform some of the duties we have been doing better than we have, that their knowledge may be more sound and that they may be more fit for leadership positions than those who have traditionally held the reigns. Even in this regard, we seem to forget the just leadership of the Queen of Sheba or a tradition that is rich with female scholarship. If we are sincere in wanting to do what Allah requires of us, we need to be open to this dialogue, admit our injustices to our sisters, ask for forgiveness and try to move forward. A bird can only fly if it flaps both wings.

 

Allah has made women our equal counterparts and they bring value and insight inherent with their nature that we may not think about or know of. Some scholars explain that women are the spiritual anchors of society. If we are sincere, we need to realize that in many ways we are oppressing our sisters and when we shut women out of leadership roles, banish them to domestic spaces, pretend that we can speak on their behalf, we are oppressing the very ones under whose feet lies paradise. The issues of leadership and involvement are not black and white and those sisters and brothers advocating for change are not asking for all values and standards to be dropped or changed. Instead we are asking for justice and fairness.

 

Sisters should be a part of the majlis-shura in the masajid and various institutions because leadership (and I am not speaking about being imam here) should be defined based on qualification and not gender. Shura entails that we take the voices of the varying members of our community into consideration. We need to ensure that sisters are able to have equal access to speakers and knowledge so that they are able to grow and learn themselves. Our primary consideration should not be how big a barrier is and whether or not it touches the ceiling. Most importantly we have to let sisters represent themselves, we should not speak for them but with them. The realization should be based upon the trust that women are our partners in establishing Islam in the world and do not have ulterior motives of "fraternizing with the opposite sex." They too want to work with us to benefit Islam, Muslims and society in general.

 

Muslims have a standard that has to be adhered to as defined by the Qur'an and the practice of the prophet pbuh. We need to rise to the challenge of implementing this within our daily lives, to adhere to its boundaries and to challenge our own bias and (mis)-interpretations of it's application. As men, it is time that we acknowledge the struggles of our sisters (both within and without our community) and it is even more important to recognize the privilege that we have enjoyed due to no real merit but simply because of our gender. If we want to please Allah and to be true to our covenant of bringing this deen to the people around us, it is necessary for us to address these issues. Until such time we will be held accountable before Allah when people reject our self-styled versions of Islam.

 

Jeewan Chanicka is a contributing writer for Young Muslims Canada website. 

 
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=YM0806-3600 - http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=YM0806-3600


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:51am
What was going on with the Ephesians when Timithy was written?
 
Had men allowed women to take complete control of religous affairs?
 
Had women grown prideful?  Did they need to be reminded learning the truth quietly?  Were they making up their own truths?
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:14am
Angel said - So what happens if there is an attractive sheik or priest Wink the same goes for the opposite.
 
Angel, God Almighty created man and woman differently. Shahwah or passion/lust/desire for men starts from the eyes (sight) while shahwah of the women starts from the touch. A man gets easily aroused when he sees a beautiful and sexy woman, while where a woman is concerned, the most she will feel, is just a slight attraction. Her shahwah normally will not be aroused. It will only be aroused when she is being touched by a man, because shahwah from the woman starts with the touch. That is why hijab is compulsory not only it lessens the arousal of the shahwah from the men, but it also protects the bare skin of the woman from being touched.
 
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion!
 
Giving women 'off days' in performing their religious duties is a form of God's Mercy and Love. He knows the capacity of a woman. However that does not mean that our faith is lesser than a man. Doing our household chores, tending to the children, serving the husband, is a form of ibadah too. God will bless us if we do all responsibilities sincerely as He is Al-Aleem - All Knowing.
 
As I mentioned in other posts of mine, Islam stressed alot on hygiene. A women in menstruation is considered dirty physically, not spiritually. In abstaining from religious duties like prayers and fasting, she is being blessed by Allah. A woman who had just given birth, will experience the weakness physically and mentally. She is not required to do all these religious duties and yet, she is so blessed for giving birth to a new life. Another sign of Allah's Mercy towards women.
 
See how wonderful that is. It is like having paid leave by your employer for not working.
 
Subhanallah! Glory be to Allah!


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:10am
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion!
 
Why are these considered synonymous?  There are great women scholars through Islamic history. And really is it about knowledge, inner spirit etc.? There are great women in all faiths who have been "leaders" as relgious figures and they were by no means the "head" of the religion they were part of.  Take Mother Theresa for instance. She follwed her belief and faith to a level that many people could not. It is never said of her she did not excel in religion cause she was not pope.  In fact it could be said she excelled more living the "word of Christ" in the slums of Calcutta then those who lived among the riches of Rome.
 
There are lots of women teaching Islamicand Quran classes as the masjid. Leading prayers has nothing to do with it.
 
Islam has alot ot odo with order.. Order helps people to feel secure and be able to focus on the tasks at hand. ts like kids who grow up with no order or structure or no discipline.. have a hard time in life. Kids thrive in order. And so do adults.
 
A women in menstruation is considered dirty physically, not spiritually.
 
Are they really considered dirty physically? That sounds more like Orthodox Judaism where te husband is not even allowed to touch his wife in any capacity when she is menstrating.. even cannot take a dish from her. If they were considered physically dirty peoplw would have to do wudu after touching her before prayers. And this is not the case.   
 
I am not sure you meant it as I took it when I read it.. Smile
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:02am
Angel, I can see that the excellent article you posted was virtually ignored.
 
I agree with the author, as I'm sure many of my posts here attest, and I believe sadly that the Ummah as a whole has gone back to the time of ignorance concerning the treatment of women. 
 
I think what most Muslim men and many women seem to forget is that Allah(SWT) hates the oppressor, and by forcing constraints and boundaries around women that Allah(SWT) did not enjoin, Muslim men and some women also, have become oppressors and Muslim women the oppressed. 
 
This does not mean that I think women should lead the prayers in a mixed congregation, because apparently the minds of men are weak and easily distracted, but I do believe that Allah(SWT) gave us equality and freedom and sadly Muslim men have been attempting to take that freedom back for the last 1000 years, and Muslim women are just allowing them to do so.  Unfortunately it is true, if you speak out against it you are labeled as westernized, not feminine, non-Islamic.... 
 
Well, I am not a feminist, I am a Muslim and actually that should be more than enough because it is my right to claim that which Allah(SWT) gave me and no man can take away.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:11am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Angel said - So what happens if there is an attractive sheik or priest Wink the same goes for the opposite.
 
Angel, God Almighty created man and woman differently.
 
Oh please, women fantansize also. You use your mind for that, both sexes do, women look at mens' butts to, well some do Tongue 
 
FRANKLY, I know that men and women are different!!!! And I'm sure the general public if not all people know that also Wink
 
But in the contxt that it is used whenever this subject comes up & after nearly 7 years here and hearing/seeing that phrase, I'm convinced it is something to hide behind as well as ignorance.
 
Look I know there is some religious ways to comply with Wink
 
Have you read the article I brought across??
 
I am not going on about cleaning in this thread but will say this about women being considered dirty physically at mentruation, those in well of areas and have a shower, can shower everyday and use wet ones after going to the toilet, change pads/tampons regularly throughout the day, there is no need to be considered dirty!!! and that should be done away with as it is a negativity term along with making young teens self concious about their bodies, there's enough of that going with teens being self concious/low esteem about their bodies. 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:32am
Shasta's Aunt, thanks :)
 
Hafya, have you actually "read" anything of mine. What you wrote, I don't disgree with, or debating against.
"Why are these considered synonymous? " I don't. It was put that women can excel in all things including religion alongside men by another poster. So in return i responded with my question. If women can excel in religion alongside men then they should have the ability and choice (if that is what the women (woman) wants as well) to lead Prayer, should be included.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:31am

Hi Angel,

 

We were created by God AlMighty with a Ruh/Spirit, Nafs, Angel and Satan. The Ruh is the pure spirit that God had equipped with the knowledge of Good and Bad. The Nafs (ego/lust/passion/desire) will always lead us astray from The True Path of God, however it can be tamed and could reach perfection like the prophets and Waliyullah (friends of Allah). If the Nafs is not tamed, it could be wild and could  become worse than an animal. Satan is the rider of Nafs. Satan has got no ally if we can control our Nafs. God AlAleem with His Mercy also gave us �Aql or Intellect to act as a judge. But remember, �Aql or intellect cannot function without �ilmu or knowledge.

 

Now ask yourself, which of the four elements that I quoted above, is the instigator of the fantasy? If we love God and wants to be the purest servant of God, would we want to lead our Ruh towards destruction by following the commands of evil?

 

Menstruation is blood flowing from our vagina. No matter what one has got to say, blood outside our physical body is dirty. Islam which means Submission to the will of God, says women who menstruates are exempted from prayers and following this command from God is considered ibadah that deserves blessings from God. This is indeed a sign of a Merciful God, who knows that how uncomfortable we women could be, especially in the first few days of menstruation. What with the cramps, the aches here and there. Sometimes, even our daily chores is such a burden when we are in this situation. How could we perform a duty of a leader when physically, we are not fit to do so?

 
However if you notice carefully, once we grow older, and we reach menopause, there is nothing that can stop a woman to pray daily or fast anytime she wants to. As we get older and death seems so inevitable, we would want to be nearer to God, hence, menopause is indeed a Rahmah or blessing from God Almighty.

 

Angel wrote - as it is a negativity term along with making young teens self concious about their bodies, there's enough of that going with teens being self concious/low esteem about their bodies. 

 

Perhaps one way to overcome teens who are sensitive of their bodies is by making them understand the meaning of Islam. Submission to the will of God. Hijab also will make teens less conscious of their bodies.

 

God created woman and man with their own responsibilities. God created men as leaders of women, and God created women to give birth to men.

 



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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 5:32am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Angel said - So what happens if there is an attractive sheik or priest Wink the same goes for the opposite.
 
Well, men arent exactly known for having eye-catching posteriors. The female body, especially certain parts of it, are more appealing compared to Males' (And poetry can attest to that) Which is why it is relatively safe to say that no one is going to be distracted by the sight of a male in prostration.
 
Women are also less likely to leer/ogle. Staring at the oppositte sex and getting 'distracted', Im afraid to say, is a more of a male tendency. I have yet to see women standing idly in malls, bazaars and whistling at men. Even if you say that happens, its probably a rare minority. How many woman turn around 360 degrees to look at the opp gender compared to men?
 
Women also have a certain amount of privacy at the back . . . they may want to breastfeed a child, adjust the hijab etc etc.
 
 
Quote Angel:
Then women should be able to lead in prayer if they are going to excel in religion!
They can lead female congregations. . . Dont we consider that 'leading'?
 
 
 
 
Quote A women in menstruation is considered dirty physically, not spiritually.  
 
 Perhaps we should rephrase that statement. Islam doesnt consider the woman dirty, just the menstrual blood.(its unhygenic) Thus touching the menstruating lady, or her touching stuff/people does not mean she made it unclean (like other nonislamic concepts.
 
Infact even if a muslim (male) bleeds due to an injury, and the amount of blood is above a certain limit . . . that nullifies ablution as well.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 8:45am
Well, speaking as a woman who worked for many years in a field where I was in charge of men and women and my decisions and how I performed my duties affected people's lives, I just have to say that stating a menstruating woman cannot perform her duties is just ridiculous. 
 
If every single woman who had to work to survive became incompetent and ineffectual everytime she had her menses they would starve. Not to mention all of those womanly household chores that wouldn't get done and the children who would be on their own for 3 to 7 days a week.....
 
I am curious, do you women just stay in bed for your entire menses? How can you drive a car which takes concentration and decision making skills, decide what to cook for dinner which forces you to decide something, watch over your children which forces you to be a leader....


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 8:32pm
Dear Shasta's aunt,
 
I have no doubt whatsoever that women can excel in anything if they put their mind to it and even the worse of menstruation cramps will not put them off.
 
As to lying down in bed, personally, I had the experience, once in a while, but still even how terrible it was it only took about one day of incapacity. Other than that no matter what, household chores does not recognize medical leave.
 
I am just trying to point out to Angel as to why women are not made to be leaders of men. Of course there are a few excellent women, but if it takes precedence over family, i think she is not a successful women. Only women who excel in her career as well as her family, then, that woman could be considered extraordinary. However not many can be found.
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 7:01am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

I am just trying to point out to Angel as to why women are not made to be leaders of men.
 
Using menstruation is a quite poor example, Nur. As well as men are weak or the women a soft voice to get lost in, that is also a poor excuse to not let women lead, why should women suffer/miss out because men are weak. Perhaps the men need to strengthen up a bit.
 
Is that how you see the whole thing, that woman would be leaders of men? Because I don't, if your in a mix congretation at the mosque then there is no need for such things.
 
If you're going to have an all male gathering, then yes let one of the men lead. And with an all female gathering then one of the women will as that is already happening there is no need for things to change. When ALL attend for mosque together then it should be allowed for women to lead. If you're going to have a balanced religion then both genders should be allowed NOT just one, otherwise it is an unbalanced religion and one I cannot really call the only true religion (not that I do anyway) . It should be given as a choice a choice of the woman if they choose to follow that path.
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 7:04am
In TN, a mosque for women run by women
29 Jun 2008, 0306 hrs IST, Meenakshi Sinha,TNN


NEW DELHI: She's credited with forming the world's first all-women jamaat, a body of elders who decide on domestic disputes and religious matters. Now, 43-year-old Daud Sharifa Khanam hopes to create another first � a mosque for women and managed by women.

"Women can't laugh, weep, love or write. There's still a large section of women in this country who're dominated by men and society," says Khanam, who nurtured a dream of fighting gender discrimination. Outraged at the patriarchal order and brutalities meted out to her ilk, Khanam impatiently outgrew her adolescence to become an audacious adult. But this transformation was slow and hard.

Raised in a conservative lower middle class Muslim family by a single mother who was a teacher, Khanam was the 10th child; she has five brothers and four sisters. As a seven-year-old, her dreams centred around learning to cycle. But she wasn't allowed to step out of house in Puddukottai in Trichy district of Tamil Nadu. "Then, freedom meant learning to cycle," she says. Today, this feisty woman has cycled a long way.

Having completed a diploma in secretarial course from AMU, it wasn't long before the first sparks of rebellion showed up as she took to teaching. This way she tried to ward off many marriage proposals. "I didn't want to lead the life led by my mother and many others like her," she says.

Her first chance to break the shackles came as a Hindi translator for the All India Women's Conference in Patna in 1988. "For the first time, I heard women speak about discrimination and violence against them. I realized how violence comes naturally to men and was restless to do something about it." The result was the formation of STEPS, a women's development organization in 1991.

With the slogan 'Respect is the First Step of Women's Liberation', STEPS took up issues related to martial dispute, desertion, dowry harassment, sexual abuse, cheating and physical and psychological torture. Besides providing temporary shelter to battered women, STEPS also helped women get livelihood, free legal aid and counselling.

Gradually, Khanam realised how misconceptions pertaining to Islam were perpetuated by male clerics in matters relating to dowry, talaq and personal law. Dowry, though prohibited under Islam, was widely prevalent and went up to Rs 50,000, whereas meher (given by the man in lieu of marriage) was restricted to a mere Rs 500, she says. Similarly, the triple talaq has been used casually by men who use either the phone, letters, Khaji (a body of elders who decide on domestic disputes and religious matters) or internet to end a marriage.

When women approached the police for help, they were referred to the jamaat, saying it came under the purview of personal law. But the jamaat functioned inside mosques where women weren't allowed to enter. "So women can't give their side of the story or hear judgments involving them," says Khanam.

This is when she formed an all-women's jamaat � the Tamil Nadu Muslim Women's Jamaat Committee (TNMWJC) � in 2003. It started with 40 members from 13 districts. Today, it boasts of 25,000 members. It has since been in the process of defining a philosophy of liberation and rights, drawing equally from the Quran and India's Constitution.

But Khanam realised this alone wasn't enough. The mosque-jamaat axis is a power centre controlling the community. "When women are refused representation in a jamaat as it's attached to a mosque, where we can't enter, we have to build our own mosque," she reasons.

She led by example. She donated a piece of land for the mosque and laid the foundation stone. "I spent close to Rs 6 lakh on it and aim to collect Rs 100 each from all STEPS members and international women's organizations to complete it," she says resolutely.

She envisions the mosque developing into a place where women can pray, talk, laugh and share their joys and sorrows.

Where they can seek justice and disseminate issues like health care, education and talaq. Khanam welcomes men into the mosque, but all aspects will be managed by women, including having a woman moulvi well-versed in the Quran.

Meanwhile, she faces many roadblocks from traditional clerics and male members of the community, including death threats and ridicule. But an International Labour Organization recognition and listing among the world's 100 heroines by the US-based 100 Heroines Project, have given Khanam a pan-India appeal.

And when she isn't doing this meaningful work, she chills out listening to old Hindi songs with an understanding husband and an 18-month-old adopted daughter.
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 11:03am
"Of course there are a few excellent women,"
 
Sister, there are hundreds of thousands of women who have children and no husband who have to work and do everything else out of necessity, women who are married but their husbands refuse or are unable to financially support them, women who have to work because one salary is not enough. And I am not talking about one salary not being enough to buy televisions and cars, I am talking about not enough to buy food and gas. 
 
These women do not have the option of staying at home. If I am to believe what I have been reading, then you and other Muslim women consider these women immasculate failures.  Is that correct?


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:



"Women can't laugh, weep, love or write. There's still a large section of women in this country who're dominated by men and society," says Khanam, who nurtured a dream of fighting gender discrimination.
 
And this country is not an islamic country. So she can expect from such country that few women are not allowed to weep,love or write.. Islam is an exception to it. WOmen are allowed here. No one can stop her.
 
 Outraged at the patriarchal order and brutalities meted out to her ilk,
 
Just  her own experience of life, does n;t mean all women faced such.
 
 

Her first chance to break the shackles came as a Hindi translator for the All India Women's Conference in Patna in 1988. "For the first time, I heard women speak about discrimination and violence against them. I realized how violence comes naturally to men and was restless to do something about it." The result was the formation of STEPS, a women's development organization in 1991.
 
Again the stories she might have heard must be of all women belonging to different religions. India is a country in which many religions are practiced. All other religions are n't perfect. The stories she listened are the ill effects of those religions. Not to forget, few muslim families were also affected by it.

 It has since been in the process of defining a philosophy of liberation and rights, drawing equally from the Quran and India's Constitution.
 
This shows, how well versed is she with Islamic Laws, that she needed Indian constitution. Islam is a perfect religion. No law of Islam is against human law.

Meanwhile, she faces many roadblocks from traditional clerics
 
Who is the so - called modern cleric supporting her? Infact, none of them is supporting her. Even women are against her .
 
 But an International Labour Organization recognition and listing among the world's 100 heroines by the US-based 100 Heroines Project, have given Khanam a pan-India appeal.
 
Here comes the evil force behind her thoughts and actions.

ening to old Hindi songs with an understanding husband and an 18-month-old adopted daughter.
 
Hah ! A women who's running a mosque, listening to old bollywood hindi songs !
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595
 
 
Anyways Angel, women in Islam are given maximum freedom, which they can enjoy to the fullest. But if they try to cross them, they not only contaminate themselves, but also the whole society. We did read, how well do other religions treat women . Show me one single religion, which gives her such freedom.
 
Shasta'a aunt, a muslim woman can come out if there is necessity. But again if she defines her own definition of necessity, it may be tough again. Unless, the basic eminities are not met, she can go out for jobs.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:



When women approached the police for help, they were referred to the jamaat, saying it came under the purview of personal law. But the jamaat functioned inside mosques where women weren't allowed to enter. "So women can't give their side of the story or hear judgments involving them," says Khanam.


But Khanam realised this alone wasn't enough. The mosque-jamaat axis is a power centre controlling the community. "When women are refused representation in a jamaat as it's attached to a mosque, where we can't enter, we have to build our own mosque," she reasons.
 
Woman in Islam are allowed to pray in mosques. So how come was she not allowed to enter mosques ? Even in India, women have there section to offer prayers.  Anyways, this article does n't represent the condition of Islam in India, nor is it relates to us. It must  be a part of publicity of her Spark / STEPS. Or an article to defame muslims.
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38595
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 12:40pm
"Anyways Angel, women in Islam are given maximum freedom, which they can enjoy to the fullest. But if they try to cross them, they not only contaminate themselves, but also the whole society. We did read, how well do other religions treat women . Show me one single religion, which gives her such freedom.
 
Shasta'a aunt, a muslim woman can come out if there is necessity. But again if she defines her own definition of necessity, it may be tough again. Unless, the basic eminities are not met, she can go out for jobs."
 
If Muslim women have maximum freedom, which I personally believe they do, then they have the right to go out whenever they choose to do so. Your statement putting conditions on this negates your avowel of maximum freedom. If she has to, if a man lets her, but not if she herself defines the necessity, she can't cross boundaries or she will contaminate society....  All of this to feed your children? No wonder so many non-Muslims think Islam treats women so badly. It's not Islam, it's the Muslims.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 2:40pm
 
 This is where the Sunnah (practice) of the holy prophet comes into play. The prophet translated the book (Quran) for us by his practice from the very first day. In his time, we do not see any woman leading the prayers. Otherwise there is no end to the knowledge of the ladies. They have everything, all liberty in all matters.

They can own property. They can marry the man of their choice. They can trade freely and earn and hold property. They have share in inheritance. They can have servants.  Let us as muslims remain within limits and not follow the ways of the devil.

There is problem on both sides. On the one hand, the women may be demanding the right to lead prayers. On the other hand, the most Muslims have dropped the status of ladies to less than the animals. They take work out of them, make them bear hardships, take away their earnings and do not let them have any freedom. That is bad.

 Then there are men who would not like their daughters to come out of the house lest somebody see them. But they (men) themselves would go out watching the others ladies. The Muslims need to learn a lot of lesson and they need to return to the real Islam which used to be.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 7:48am
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

Otherwise there is no end to the knowledge of the ladies.
 
what do you mean by this? before I jump down your throat Evil%20Smile Tongue sorry can't wait  Evil%20Smile LOL what is wrong with ladies having endless knowledge? anyway don't we anyway Tongue
 
 
Quote Let us as muslims remain within limits and not follow the ways of the devil.
 
no ones talking about following the ways of the devil.

Quote There is problem on both sides. On the one hand, the women may be demanding the right to lead prayers.

If the choice was there if they choose that path, there would not be any demanding. it simply would be there for those who wish on both sides of the gender.
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 6:53pm
Hi,
I guess it all goes back to the one simple fact, man and woman are created equal but with different roles and functions. And I will say it agian, just look at a woman, her body and physical limits, and look than and compare that to that of a man.
Be honest and it will come down to a simple but logical understanding. Once you accept the fact of that differance, it will make sense that some roles and responsibilites and functions suit women while others suit man. And there is nothing wrong to admit that fact. Those who deny that fact are no differant than those who abuse it to their interest. 
Even in the least moral practicing societies like USA for example, a man can walk down the street without a shirt, something a woman is not allowed to do. Does that tell you something? It does to me that regardless of our beliefs, the fitra or our "nature" do tell us our limits, if we are guided we are able to make sense of things.
Hasan 


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 8:50pm

Salaams,

i am not sure the shirt taking off is quite the example.. for in certain cultures women are bare-breasted and marry as virgins.. this is true in certain African socieites.  I could not say they are less or more moral then any other society.
 
Angel: not sure if you'll get any, but a few Muslims who think that women should lead prayers in mixed congregations.  Women, on an intellectual and spiritual level are equal to men in general. Each in the end of is judged by their piety and efforts. I am a very strong believer in women being more ten capable to do most things. Women can be scholars educators, doctors, lawyers and scientist.  
 
The person who leads prayers is not the same as say a priest for example. Priests supposedly can "forgive" sins and such.  For the most part, men and women can do almost everything the other does except for a handful of things.  
 
Actually, I was thinking of say if you lead prayers you might have ten rows of men followed by 10 rows of women. And so it would seem as if it all men. And you know.. rarely are women put in charge of an activity like it. The only example I can find is something like the military. Where someone on a day in and day out basis women leading large groups of men.. and what if it is 50 men and two women in the back.
 
But most Muslims do think women can be scholars, judges etc.. nothing wrong with these things.
 
I at times do find the gender divide different to deal with. At times I think there are no male Muslims.. lol If you are raised in it, it is not odd. But to me at he masjid it can be odd. Not in prayers but even afterwards or beforehand. Say you have a community dinner.. you might say salaams but not talk much to the men.. which is at  times cause the conversations can be interesting.. I do like a good conversation.
 
It is completely cultural. Like when talking to the Imam he doesn't look at you in the face much.. looks away. And in this cultural it would sgnal dis-interest so I think he is bored..lol Smile


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 10:34am
 
  In all these matters, please do not put your own interest above the will of Allah which is manifested in the Quran. And the practical example of the prophet s.a.w.s. That settles the matter for us. Otherwise we could have many problems, such as will the lady lead a mixed prayer party ? Who will be in the first rank (row)? All men or all women? Could they be mixed men and women in the same row?? And so on.
 
 Everything that is said above is good. Women are quite capable. They need knowledge and they are told to seek knowledge. But let us leave it at that. Our religion has practically told us all the right way of living. If we disregard the religion then there will be no end to the wishful thinking.
 
 If we modify the rules and forget the Sunnah of the prophet then we may very soon be having dance parties in the mosques.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 4:46pm
[QUOTE=honeto]Hi,
I guess it all goes back to the one simple fact, man and woman are created equal but with different roles and functions. And I will say it agian, just look at a woman, her body and physical limits, and look than and compare that to that of a man.
Be honest and it will come down to a simple but logical understanding. Once you accept the fact of that differance, it will make sense that some roles and responsibilites and functions suit women while others suit man. And there is nothing wrong to admit that fact. Those who deny that fact are no differant than those who abuse it to their interest. 
Even in the least moral practicing societies like USA for example, a man can walk down the street without a shirt, something a woman is not allowed to do. Does that tell you something? It does to me that regardless of our beliefs, the fitra or our "nature" do tell us our limits, if we are guided we are able to make sense of things.
Hasan 
[/QUOTE]
 
I don't think anyone has said that men and women are not different. I think what we are saying is that they are equal.  Equal does not mean identical. Equal means like in quality, nature, or status.  What I have been saying is that nowhere in the Quran does is state that men and women are not equal except where it comes to maintenance which is an obligation from Allah upon men.  The Quran clearly states that men and women are like in quality, nature and status and I have posted these Ayats on another thread that is actually discussing this same issue.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 4:56pm
I really don't think the issue here is who will lead the prayers, but rather a basic issue of Muslim men in some cultures believing that women are inferior. Unfortunately culturally some Muslim women belive this also. However, if you look at the Quran this is clearly not the case.
 
I have no problem with men leading prayers nor have I any desire to lead them myself. I do have a problem being told that because I am a woman I am somehow mentally deficient and inferior to men. There is nothing in Islam that supports this view and I have absolutely no clue how it even became an issue among Muslims.
 
I have read so many articles trying to explain that Islam does not oppress women, Islam was the first religion to give women their rights, etc... yet the very fact that these articles have to be written to try to convince people this is so means that something is very wrong.  If the Ummah were truly treating women the way Allah intended and giving women all of their rights there would be no need for such articles and assurances because it would be a nonissue, it would just be a fact of life. 
 
Instead of trying to convince everyone that Islam does not oppress women, perhaps the Ummah should stop oppressing women and that would solve the problem.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 5:01pm
4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
 
Allah created all of us from a single person, we are of like nature and have mutual rights. There is nothing stated here that men have superiority over women, rather we are the same, equal.
 
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
 
The only superiority in the sight of Allah is the most righteous. I hope you REALLY grasp what this Ayat is stating.
 
78:8 And (have We not) created you in pairs,
 
Created in pairs, of like nature
 

32:8 And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:

 

32:9 But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

All of mankind has been given the faculties of understanding. All of the progeny of Adam and Eve, men and women. There is nothing stated in the Ayat that only man was given understanding, or woman was given less understanding.
 
3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."
 
4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
 
Nowhere is it stated that men and women are not held equally responsible. And if women were not equal, then it would be an injustice to hold them equally accountable, but this Ayat makes it clear this is not the case.
 
33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
 
Equal reward...


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt



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