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What you guys running here?

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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 7:27am

 

 I copy pasted the words of Genesis chapter 16. The word wife is very much there. If you open a few other bibles (KJV etc) you will find it there. Your post is funny. See below:

 I am still wondering what you mean by unitarian? Abraham believed in the God of the Jews and Christians the single God.

 You do not understand Unitarian. Then you may not be aware of the Trinitarians too. Abraham did not believe in the God of the Jews and christians. The Jews and christains may have believed in the God of Abraham. There were no Jews or christians at the time of Abraham.

 

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Whisper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:33am

Its four walls-so low it is said a young goat can leap over them-
are swathed in strips of heavy cloth.

Thank you being here my friend. I love people with such beauty of a select-check habit! They provide us good laughs in such days of global tension and blackouts. I appoint them as my Morshed-in-Chiefs, but sadly they just slip out after a few posts.

I am six two, I believe that should be something like 185 cm in French or just a wee more, I am not too sure for I haven't checked. I was lucky enough to have been invited to visit the Kaaba. The walls are just twice my height.

Are we talking about some small goato-saur that would jump over these walls?

Brader'em Minuteman, two hundred and twenty three thanks for saving me the rest of my post. Pobre Anatolians other facts are exactly like the height of this wall!!

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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:03pm
Brother Minutemen:
I have a couple of questions to ask on this moronic argument from this knucklehead Xian about Hagar(a) status. I hope you don't mind!

Mister Anatolian: You are so juvenile that it is beyond belief. You need to grow up if you expect to have a normal discussion here.
 
Didn't your parent teach you how to behave appropriately with people?

If you knew the standing rule for any men of the Abraham family that if they slept with any woman that would automatically be raised to his wife's status and issue would be his progeny.

It was left to the man to pick the favorites! And sure they did have favorites!

It seems you are totally ignorant of the real facts about the Israelites where Jesus was an end issue of one of the families.
What Abraham(a) did same was repeated by his grand son Prophet Jacob(a) and he had 12 sons and a daughter from two wives who happened to be sisters and two of the wives' maids.
Do I need to put down the details or you know what I am talking about?
Have you ever heard the Israelites of the maids being reminded of who their mothers were

You need be to ashamed of yourself for even bringing the subject up.

And what is it with the title of the topic?
You have no manner!

BTW it is getting fashionable in the west as shown by the celebrities to have children without even getting married and magazines pay millions to just to look
The gays are making babies in most awful ways!
so what gives?

So far Aslan is concerned he has Masters in Fiction also! He is Persian raised in the US, I won't consider his book for references. It has been a while when I read that and all I can say that he has done some word smithing to  make it palatable to the western audiences!
 Did you read the Aslan's book or just copy & pasted from his website to start this polemics?
It is racist Paul's who has made an issue of Hagar(a) descendants.While Paul had no authority to comment on the subject but he did anyway in Galatian 4-21/30
Hagar and Sarah
 21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
   "Be glad, O barren woman,
      who bears no children;
   break forth and cry aloud,
      you who have no labor pains;
   because more are the children of the desolate woman
      than of her who has a husband."[b]

 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

And he forgot the Israelites were of Egyptians' real slaves down the road but the Ishmaelites were never slaves but turned pagans when he is discussing the subject

This has been discussed n debated here in the past and I am sure this won't be the last time either!
Finally if you have an honest interest to learn about Kaaba and Hajj and one of the best step by step explanation from a great Persian scholar Dr. Shariati I can give you the link if you like!




Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 7:38pm

 

  Thanks. paul who was no apostle at all did much damage to christianity and judaism too. He was a misled man enemy of Jesus. It is a pity that paul wrote such bad things about Hagar with whom Allah was much pleased. She had recieved news/ revelation too. That is written in the bible OT.

 The slavery of the Israelis in Egypt was a punishment from Allah for them for calling an honorable lady (Hagar) as a slave. The whole lot of them had to become slaves for many years in Egypt because some one called the honorable Egyptian lady as slave girl. Slaves do not have their own name. Hagar was at the most a servant in the house and she served very well and eventualy overtook Sarah and became the beloved wife of Abraham, the master.

 I knew about the children of Jacob who were from the concubines or maid servants. All the 12 children inherited everything. But in the case of Hagar, these people try to rememebr that she was not entitled and want to dis-inherit her and her children. Why??

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Whisper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:16pm

The whole lot of them had to become slaves for many years in Egypt because some one called the honorable Egyptian lady as slave girl.

Brother thanks for bringing this interesting piece up about Bibi Hajira.

It was a custom, an established social norm, of that day to gift the best possible to our guests. There was nothing sinister or low about gifting a woman to any man, anywhere, in that era of our history.

Hajira was the Paharao's sister.

Hazrat Ibraheem had taken "horses" to Egypt - these were never seen by the Egyptians before. Not just for this, but also in the overall sense, el Pharao was just simply taken in by Ibraheem. As ze Amrecanos would say; PERIOD!

He gifted his sister to Ibraheem.

Please don't waste any time on this chap. All his measurements are as dodgy as his story about the Kaaba walls and some pretty little Miss Barbi Goat jumping over these happily as if with some magic!!

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Anatolian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anatolian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:56pm
Alright I see no point in conversing with you three because it's hopeless
for these main facts.

Anything I will quote to you anything I provide from the Bible all the way
to a book written by a respected scholar you will denounce. And
denounce in what way? Either the scholar is an Iranian who grew up in
America or the scholar is biased against muslims. As for the Bible well the
Bible 2 billion Christians believe to be truth along with millions of Jews
who follow the Old Testament is nul and void because it was edited from
"the true text". Which so far no Muslim has ever produced or found an
original of the "real" Bible. You all say "Well no but the Qu'ran says so..."
Well this is where the problem lies. As a Christian I do not believe in the
Qu'ran. This is a fact or else I would be a Muslim, which is not hte case.
What's the point of going on and on if everything I give you is rubbish and
everything you give me is either sourced out of your own context of
whatever YOU believe is true. Nothing you have said is sourced or even
sourced correctly. You copy and paste Bible quotes from God knows
where and you expect me to buy it? The greatest thing I found
entertaining is the fact that you three (minuteman, sign reader, and
whisper) is the fact that you believe yourselves to be experts in early
civilization's customs and traditions. You form your own beliefs as to
what was the norm in those days and what wasn't. To claim that Sarai was
a "woman of law and wed Abraham to Hagar, which made Hagar equal to
herself" is ridiculous. You form these thoughts so that you won't lessen
the glory of the family branch of the Arab race. Your messages send out
an almost Hitler-like way of thinking concerning races and genetics.

If Aslan's book is filled with anti-Islamic sentiments then there must have
been an issue with CAIR and the book would have been removed. But
nothing of that has happened.

I am forced to read explanations of "Arabs were believing in a single God
then they were Unitarian, then they were Pagan, then they were confused,
then back to single God." My friends you are the confused ones. As for
me I will not waste my time responding your posts (if I can hold myself
not to.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:40pm

 

 He has failed to do a good work. He had gone on wrong track from the beginning. We have given him the right replies to his wrong allegations. Still does not understand and finds the things becoming difficult now. This is a mere discussion forum.

 As whisper said, I had also known that Hajirah (Hagar) was a princess from Egypt. In any case she was the mother of 12 princes who are named in the bible OT. The children of those princes are spread all over Arabia now.



Edited by minuteman
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Whisper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:34am

Alright I see no point in conversing with you three because it's hopeless for these main facts.

Didn't realise you were speaking from the Oval Office? The worlds sound very familiar.

Morshed, forget about these other two, just tell me again about the Kabaah walls. I can only discuss those as I have seen these in PERSON!

Plus, I know, Hagar was the pharao's sister + I also know the sheer fact that it was an established custom, in those days, to co-habit with a woman of your fancy and choice - the world seems to have come a full round circle - to accept Common Law wife in our present times. No?

If you are here just for fun, then just whisper to me and I will join you in that game as well. 

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