Today I was thrown out of church |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Who's "backpedaling"? We have seen the facts already. You just don't want to to acknowledge them.
Oh, my mistake! You weren't "stating an opinion" just your "viewpoint". Well, sorry to burst your bubble but they are one and the same thing since your "viewpoint" is based on false information which you try to pass off as the truth. Hence, you are only stating your opinions. Opinions are not facts.
Now, now...don't change the subject. You apologists do that all too often when you are faced with difficult questions. We are talking about the trinity, aren't we? You have claimed that the trinity doctrine can be found in the Bible. I have shown that your claim is baloney. I showed you how the Bible contradicts itself on the baptismal formula and how the "father, son and holy spirit" formula is a later addition. Tell me, why did "Jesus" contradict himself by saying in one place that he was sent only the "lost sheep of Israel" but in another, he told his disciples to go to all nations? Tell my what the baptismal formula is supposed to be? Is it in the name of the "father, son and holy spirit" as Matthew 28 claims or is it in the name of Jesus or "into Jesus" as claimed in Acts?
Sure, sure... You are a Christian apologist because you believe blindly in the Bible and refuse to acknowledge valid criticisms of it. Case in point: you completely ignored the issue I raised in the last post when I showed that the baptismal formula of Matthew 28 is a corruption of the early Gentile church. Instead of responding to the issue at hand, you tried to weasel your way out by changing the subject! For shame! Ooops, am I mocking?
Well let me see...praying to a lifeless statue...hmmm... Yep, sounds like blind faith to me! The point of bringing up Hinduism was to refute your childish logic in claiming that just because the trinitarian belief has been around for a long time, it somehow means that it is the truth. Like the typical apologist, you again tried to dance around the issue, refusing to acknowledge that your logic is pathetically absurd. Using your logic, you should be a Hindu, as both Ron and I have pointed out.
What "blind faith" are you referring to? Care to give an example? You see, blind Christian fanatic, I have actually studied both my own religion and other religions, Christianity most of all. It has been based on my study, using both Muslim and non-Muslim scholarly sources, that I have come to the inevitable conclusion that Islam is the truth and that all other religions are false, Christianity most of all. In fact, I am so sure that if I were ever to come to "doubt" Islam (which has 0 probability), I would never even consider Christianity or the other religions as an alternative, now would I consider atheism. The only alternative would be Deism, which even though I have some grievances about it, makes more sense to me than any other religion, with the exception of Islam. In contrast, you have exhibited the typical brainwashed nature that I have come to expect from Christian apologists. You know very little about Islam (and what little information you have comes from pseudo-scholarly sources). Ironically, you have even exhibited a laughable ignorance of your own Bible at times! So yes, you are a blind Christian apologist. How embarrassing it must be for you! |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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and again, you felt the need to end with attempts at insults. *sigh It does not help in any way to prove you are more knowledgeable than I. You still have not said with any clarity why you accept your faith. asalaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 24 June 2014 at 8:06pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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[QUOTE=islamispeace] As the late Biblical scholar Geza Vermes stated:
"The saying is ascribed to the risen Jesus appearing on a Galilean mountain, an event foretold in Mark..., but attested exclusively attested in Matthew. The main message, viz. a worldwide mission of the envoys of Jesus, contradicts his prohibition on approaching non-Jews...In fact, the passage contains further ideas unrecorded elsewhere in the New Testament. [...] In the earlier missionary programmes there was no question of baptism, let alone baptizing all the nations. Moreover, baptism administered in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in unheard of not just in the Gospels but in whole New Testament. The formula occurring in the Acts of the Apostles is baptism 'into' or 'in the name of Jesus' (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5), and baptism 'into Christ' in Paul (Rom. 6:3, Gal. 3:7). Outside Matthew, the trinitarian formula, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, first occurs in the early church manual entitled the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, which is dated to the first half of 2nd century AD. All this points to a late Gentile-Christian origin for Matthew 28:18-20." ("The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 54) [quote] I went back to your earlier post, as I said I would, and if this is what you were referring to... I didn't respond because essentially it reads as so much nonsense. I could provide plenty of evidence to refute these statements but I know that you would not listen to anything anyway, so why bother. I really don't have time and energy to waste. I say this because I have provided other links at other times that you flatly refuse to consider. If you have any actual interest I recommend listening to this: http://www.catholic.com/audio-player/6837 It's what I came across as I was exploring into my own answers. I actually take the time to look at any information regarding islam and Muhammad when it is presented to me. Peace and blessings, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 24 June 2014 at 8:40pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Eoah
Newbie Male Joined: 20 January 2013 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 27 |
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I just googled "Blind Faith" and found out that it is an english blues rock band comprised of Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Steve Winwood and Rick Grech.
I've lost the plot! I don't exactly know what you two are arguing about and I'm going to have to reread the whole thread to figger it out! I think I'm going nuts, today. But, I'm OK. Hey there Caringheart. Can I ask you, are you rejecting the idea of an alliance of religions because it is not of the Christian faith? For example, do you think that the Shri Chinmoy organisation is evil because they don't accept Jesus as their saviour? Because this idea of an alliance of individuals is a good constructive viewpoint and I agree with you - but without ruling out religious organisations as part of that equation. There are individuals who have their own faith in God, but don't belong to any religious organisation. There are other individuals whom you might term Secular Humanists who have an invested interest in world peace - but don't believe in God. Yet they would accept the concept of "One God" symbolically, just to get in on the kumbaya and the good vibes of this alliance for their own personal altruistic sence of service to humanity. And God has good use for people like that! Caringheart, when I use the term "One God", I am not trying to harass you for believing in trinity, because at some point I need to accept and respect that you believe in trinity, even though I do not. Instead, I'm using "One God" as a convenient point of unity for such an alliance within the diversity of human beings who would have an invested interest in such an organisation for the purposes of world peace. After all, God is the ultimate unity within the diversity of creation! Praise be! Glory to God! Holy, Holy, Holy!!! Allahu Akbar! Now, I'm going to copy and paste the previous four paragraphs into a new thread called: "One God Alliance". O.K? |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings Eoah, You made me laugh... 'english blues rock band'. Isn't google fun? and yes, conversations between islamispeace and myself could make anyone feel like they were going nuts. I, myself, would have to go back and look where islamispeace jumped in. Thanks, laughter is good. Did we derail your thread? Sorry. I will reply to the rest on your new thread. Hope you are having a blessed day, Caringheart One more question though... Did you read or listen to either of the links I provided in my first post? I'm curious regarding the Trinity... What explanation is there in your mind for the fact that the Creator(Elohim) always refers to Himself in the plural? Thanks, and blessings. Edited by Caringheart - 25 June 2014 at 12:44pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Hi Ron, I should have replied to this. You miss the rest of my post; "The reason is clear... it has endured because it is God's Truth. It is there in the scriptures. When Yshwe disappeared from the tomb after having been seen placed there in death, and sealed in, and the entrance guarded... when He appeared to many as the risen Christ... all became clear to those who witnessed these things. It was then, they began to understand the words of Yshwe, all that He had been telling to them." Peace and blessings to you, Caringheart I should also restate... that muslims have implied that the Gospels were created by man... and I say, to what purpose? If they wanted to make converts they certainly would not have written something so difficult to be accepted... they would have written what would be easy to accept... so I say it is illogical to make the claim that the Gospels were created, or made up. It's not the fact that 'it's unbelievable that makes me believe it'... it's the fact that no one wanting to be believed would make up such a story. So yes, you are correct... "a more reasonable question would be, why would anyone believe a story so hard to be accepted?" and the only reasonable answer... because they were witnesses to the events. Edited by Caringheart - 29 June 2014 at 10:17pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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My interest was peaked and so I did some exploring of my own on the words blind faith.... On 'blind faith'.... The words blind faith are actually a bit redundant since the dictionaries define "faith" as a "belief that is not based on proof". "Blind faith is a pejorative use of the term faith used to highlight the lack of information involved in matters of faith." |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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You must have trouble with reading comprehension. I already stated that the facts come from studying scholarly sources. In contrast, your "viewpoint" comes from your own opinions.
What a typical apologetic response... Thank you for proving once again that you are nothing more than a blind apologist. Its no wonder that you haven't even responded to the point I raised. You simply ignored it and then asserted (without explaining why) that I "have shown no such thing".
Any person with an ounce of reason will know that the Gospels are false. There is plenty of proof...the contradictions, the historical errors etc. all prove that the Gospels are false. Let us look at the verses in question again and see if there is a contradiction or not: Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." Acts 2:38 - "Peter replied, �Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Acts 8:16-16 - "When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 10:46-48 - "Then Peter said, 47 �Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.� 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 19:4-7 - "Paul said, �John�s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.� 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesb]">[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all." Romans 6:3 - "Or don�t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Galatians 3:27 - "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." So, on the on hand, "Jesus" purportedly told the disciples to baptize people in the name of the "Father, son and holy spirit", yet on more than one occasion, the disciples baptized people only in Jesus' name. That is a contradiction. Either that, or the disciples simply disobeyed Jesus.
Oh really? So the people of Israel had the honor of having Jesus sent to them but us poor Gentiles have to make do with his disciples? Something's wrong with this picture! Furthermore, you once again show how ignorant you are of your own scripture and expose yet another contradiction. You claimed that the disciples "were sent to go and make disciples of all nations and peoples" yet this directly contradicts what Jesus himself said: Matthew 10:5-8 - "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: �Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: �The kingdom of heaven has come near.� 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,a]">[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give."
Oh sure, sure. I have yet to see your "criticisms of...the Bible". And like I said before, anyone with an ounce of reason can see that your so-called "scriptures" are not the "Truth". If you haven't been "persuaded", it's because you don't want to be persuaded.
Oh how convenient! The reality is that you didn't respond because you were uncomfortable with the truth. You remind me of a certain video clip. I think I have shown this to you before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_8knBHEyw Guess which one you are?
Oh how you make me laugh! Didn't I give you the opportunity to respond to the points raised by the Vermes source? I asked you to respond, because I want to know how you would reconcile what appears to be an obvious contradiction. You, on the other hand, have decided not to respond! Is that my fault? And by the way, I have been discussing with Christians for over 10 years. I have listened to the "other side", and I have found the counterarguments on that side to be weak and illogical. The evidence against the Bible is overwhelming. You just don't want to admit it.
Huh?! This is your "most prevalent argument against Islam"? You do nothing but spread lies about Islam, and yet insist that you "would never insist someone live according to my beliefs". If that is the case, then why do you speak against Islam like other fanatic missionaries? Why do you refer to sources like Robert Spencer? Also, the irony is that, just a few posts earlier, you stated the following: "Peace unto you. May you one day believe." If you don't "insist [that] someone live according to [your] beliefs", then why did you say "may you one day believe"?
I can't help it if you have trouble with reading comprehension. I have already explained why I believe in Islam and why I believe Christianity is false. I have even shown you proof of the latter. If you want proof of the former, we can discuss it on another thread. This thread is about the trinity doctrine, which is what Eoah's original post was about, or have you forgotten? You still have not shown with any clarity where the Bible mentions the trinity.
Oooh, getting defensive are we? There, there Caringheart. It's okay. I said it before and I will say it again: Blind. Christian. Fanatic. Oh, sorry...was I mocking again? Darn it! I have to cut that out! I am all ears as to the "plenty of evidence to refute these statements..." This is a discussion. Either you can continue it or run away from it. It's your choice. I can have this same discussion with some other Christian. If you are too afraid to comment on the contradictions regarding the baptismal formula, that is fine by me.
I'll check it out when I have more time. Regardless, the contradictions in the Bible remain and you have yet to explain why you feel they are not contradictions. Like I said, I am all ears.
Sure, sure. I suppose all the inaccurate statements you make are the result of all the "time" you take to "look at any information" about Islam. Riiiight.... Edited by islamispeace - 25 June 2014 at 6:23pm |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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