Today I was thrown out of church
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Topic: Today I was thrown out of church
Posted By: Eoah
Subject: Today I was thrown out of church
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 2:19am
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I don't usually go to church. But, today I felt in my heart that I had to go into the church to say something. When I had said it, I was jossled out by aggressive members of the church out onto the street and told not to come back. I will not go back. I had said what I intended to say: "The idolatry of Jesus is against the Ten Commandments - because there is no trinity precedent in the Bible!" Most of my family are dedicated Evangelist Christians. But, I refuse to go to church when my sister invites me. There is good love between my sister and I, even though we are at loggerheads on Christian belief. Well, I rang up my sister to tell her I went to church but got thrown out and we debated the statement. she said: "Prove it!" I said: "Prove me wrong!" After she invited me over next saturday to celebrate midwinter with the family at her place we hung up and I thought about our discussion. I thought: "How can she ask me to prove it when the second part of the statement IS the proof!" One cannot even debate the nature of trinity until it can be established that there is a trinity in the first place. That is what I mean by a "Trinity Precedent". And there is NO Trinity Precedent in the bible; there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that connects God with the number three. That is the fact; that is the truth! And the Quran backs that up! Then I thought about how my sister wanted me to prove the proof. And I thought: "In a way, the proof is only half the proof, because the other half of the proof is the recipients' willingness and genuineness to want the truth." How can I prove anything to anybody if they are unwillinging to see the proof? I will be discussing this with my family on saturday and I will keep you posted. My brothers and sisters of One God, feel free for good stimulating discussion of this. |
Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 9:14am
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http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html The Trinity is in the Bible, even from the Torah, but mostly in the things Yshwe(known as Jesus) said and demonstrated of, and in, Himself. And (Elohim) said. Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Genesis 1:26 Elohim made man, a being composed of a triunity --- body, soul and spirit, in the image of God and God always refers to Himself in the plural, not the singular. As a matter of fact everything you come in contact with is not a mathematical concept of one, but usually an item composed of a trinity. All things are composed of millions and billions of atoms; but the atom itself is a trinity of a proton, electron and nucleus. If, according to our rabbis', God has made everything and arranged everything in a Trinitarian way. then it must also be Jewish and biblical to know that God, Himself is a Trinity. Rabbi Joshua bar Nehemiah said that this is the Torah whose letters are threefold, alf, bet, g(i)ml, and everything is a Trinity: The Torah is Trinitarian, for it is composed of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Mishna (talmudical learning) is a trinity composed of Talmud (learning) halakhot (daily Jewish laws) and haggadot (historical items). The mediator consisted of a trinity of Miriam, Moses, & Aaron. Prayers are a trinity of morning, afternoon, and evening prayers. Israel is a trinity consisting of priests, Levites and Israelites. The name Moses in Hebrew consists of three letters. He is of the tribe of Levi, which again is in the Hebrew three letters. from the seed of the Patriarchs who are a trinity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; in the third month which is Sivan, after Nisan & Iyar on mount Sin whose letters are three as it is written. "And they rested in the wilderness of Sin.".(Midrash Tanhuma on Exodus 19)The Trinity explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 11:08am
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Hello Eoah and welcome to the forum! I am glad that you have realized that the trinity is a false doctrine and that worshiping Jesus (peace be upon him) is idolatry. Alhamdulillah! It is perhaps one of the greatest ironies in world history that Christians preach the trinity, yet it is not even found in their own scripture (the New Testament), let alone in the so-called "Old Testament" (Tanakh). Any objective analysis of both "testaments" shows that there is no trinity doctrine mentioned therein, despite the insistence of apologists like "Caringheart" and her ilk. Here are some articles from Jewish sources which dispel the myth that the trinity can be found in the Tanakh: http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hazak/af-answer.pdf - http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hazak/af-answer.pdf http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers-2/god-as-one-vs-the-trinity/ - http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers-2/god-as-one-vs-the-trinity/ http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation6.html - http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation6.html ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 1:40pm
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"Just because there are various manifestations of Gd in the Bible, this does not mean that each manifestation is to be regarded as separate and unequal to Gd, yet somehow at the same time one and the same as Gd. It also does not mean that each manifestation of Gd is to be treated differently. The Hebrew Scriptures tells us that Gd is One." This, quoted from the source that islamispeace provided, only seems to confirm what I have said on the matter. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 2:23pm
 This only goes to show how blind and deceived you are. You only read what you want to read (or perhaps you have problems with reading comprehension  ). See the part in red. The article also explains in clear terms why the trinity doctrine has no place in the Tanakh:"Not only are these concepts of a 'composite unity' and 'plural oneness' contradictory and untenable, as well as unbiblical, as we have seen, but there are more than just three manifestations of Gd in the Hebrew Scriptures." The author then proceeds to give examples of these manifestations which completely demolish the Christian insistence that the trinity is "biblical". That is a missionary lie. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Caringheart wrote:Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 5:58pm
Greetings islamispeace, I have ignored none of what you highlight. It changes nothing in regard to what I have said which is why I did not hesitate to quote all of it. You should watch the youtube video at the link I provided. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 8:44pm
You confirm over and over again what I have already said: you are a blind apologist who only sees what she wants to see and ignores all evidence and reason that contradicts everything she have been taught. I am very familiar with Christian excuses and explanations for the trinity. I have heard it all. The video is no different. Do you think that will impress anyone, besides brainwashed and gullible apologists such as yourself? Here are the facts: 1. The trinity is a false and Satanic doctrine, invented by the church. 2. No such doctrine is even found in the New Testament, let alone the Tanakh. 3. The Christian worship of Jesus is nothing more than repackaged idolatry, as people like the Eoah have realized. Now, I harbor no delusions that I, or anyone else, will be able to persuade apologists like you. That doesn't bother me. You can live in your own fantasy world, while the rest of us will accept reality.  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 June 2014 at 10:01pm
Greetings islamispeace, Here's how I see it. I could say of you; "You confirm ... you are a blind apologist who only sees what he wants to see and ignores all evidence and reason that contradicts everything he has been taught. " I have my Biblical worldview. You have your Muhammadan world view. Your "facts", that you present... where do you get your "facts" from? Here are the words of Yshwe:
I know that you do not accept them... but there they are. Please give explanation... Why would anyone invent a story so hard to be accepted? Who in your mind would have invented such a history and for what purpose? If someone wanted to invent something, they would invent something easy to be believed. And why has a story so hard to be accepted endured through 2014 years? The reason is clear... it has endured because it is God's Truth. It is there in the scriptures. When Yshwe disappeared from the tomb after having been seen placed there in death, and sealed in, and the entrance guarded... when He appeared to many as the risen Christ... all became clear to those who witnessed these things. It was then, they began to understand the words of Yshwe, all that He had been telling to them. Peace unto you. May you one day believe. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 10:15am
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Thankyou both Caringheart and islamispeace for your responses, God bless you both! islamispeace: I am very pleased and happy that you agree with this. Let us be a part of a "One God Alliance" - of religions united for God! This is my agenda for being on this forum. Caringheart: It is very interesting what you have said about the atoms of creation. Even though I don't believe in the trinity of God, I do believe in the trinity of creation: What is Creation broken down to its most fundamental aspects? Is it not Energy in Time and Space? But, Caringheart, you are missing the original point that I was trying to make. The only proof that there is a trinity is that there is a Trinity Precedent that says that God is connected to the number three. And there isn't any. Until you can prove the Trinity precedent, all other arguments are circumstantial, circular and irrelevent. The holy trinity is as real as the holy quartet, because God is not connected to the number four, either. Being an Empath Sensitive who is suffering from severe depression in the last few months, I have been experiancing an extremely terrible Monday. I was wondering if this is because I have been picking up the dark negative energy of the Evangelist Christians who threw me out on Sunday. I felt like I was under psychic attack or maybe it is just that my depression is really bad. I feel afraid. I feel that the dark side of Evangelism, that was originally created by the devious deception of trinity, has reached a critical mass. Trinity Christianity, today, is a very vast and powerful global force both psychically and politically. This, along with a minority of Sunni Shaitanists (Isis and Al Queda) is having a negative impact upon our world. Perhaps God has made an ultimatum to all Christians of the world: Repent and disown trinity, or face the consequences. This is what I am speculating only, because God works in ways totally beyond our understanding. We need a "One God Alliance" of religions united for God. This can be a political force stronger than Trinity Christianity. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 11:47am
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 4:25pm
I was skimming through this discussion when I came across this -- and my jaw dropped! --
My goodness, this actually makes sense to you? The more unbelievable a story is, the more you're inclined to believe it? IMHO a more reasonable question would be, why would anyone believe a story so hard to be accepted?
Perhaps you ought to be a Hindu. The roots of Hinduism go back thousands of years before Christ, and their stories are at least as unbelievable as the Christian Gospel. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 4:32pm
I could care less what you say. This is about facts, not personal opinions. So far, you haven't responded to the facts. How typical of Christian apologists!
Oh, I don't know...common sense and the evidence that is right in front of our eyes? But I know those things don't mean anything to you!
Why is it that brain-washed apologists are so easily fooled by the contradictions in their own Bible? Here is the thing: these verses are not the original words of Jesus! They are a later invention of the church. How do we know this? Well, for one thing, these verses contradict others in the New Testament. As the late Biblical scholar Geza Vermes stated:"The saying is ascribed to the risen Jesus appearing on a Galilean mountain, an event foretold in Mark..., but attested exclusively attested in Matthew. The main message, viz. a worldwide mission of the envoys of Jesus, contradicts his prohibition on approaching non-Jews...In fact, the passage contains further ideas unrecorded elsewhere in the New Testament. [...] In the earlier missionary programmes there was no question of baptism, let alone baptizing all the nations. Moreover, baptism administered in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in unheard of not just in the Gospels but in whole New Testament. The formula occurring in the Acts of the Apostles is baptism 'into' or 'in the name of Jesus' (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5), and baptism 'into Christ' in Paul (Rom. 6:3, Gal. 3:7). Outside Matthew, the trinitarian formula, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, first occurs in the early church manual entitled the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, which is dated to the first half of 2nd century AD. All this points to a late Gentile-Christian origin for Matthew 28:18-20." ("The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 54) So, there you go. Another one of your absurd claims debunked by a little research. Why can't you just admit that you have been deceived? It's for your own good!
This story was not invented by just one person. It is the result of centuries of misinformation. The term "trinity" (from the Latin "trinitas") was not even used until the late 2nd-century by Tertullian, after his conversion to Montanism.
Oh brother...the childish logic of Christian apologists! Using your logic, we can argue that Hinduism is true because it has been around for thousands of years, or as you put it, it has "endured". The reason Christianity has survived is the same for why every other ancient ideology has survived: faith, or more specifically in the case of Christianity, blind faith. Blind faith is a powerful force. You have exhibited signs of it over and over again and serve as a perfect example of how powerful it is.
This is another tactic of blind Christian apologists. After providing a ludicrous and weak defense of their blind faith, they act like the people they are preaching to are poor, lost souls who need to guided to the "truth". Well, let me fill you in on something! It's you who is the lost soul! So, let me respond to your "may you one day believe" nonsense by saying: It ain't gonna happen, lady! I will never "believe" in a Satanic lie. You need to get your head out of the ground. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 4:32pm
My sentiments exactly! ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 June 2014 at 5:42pm
No, no.... no backpedaling. You want to speak of facts. If these are facts you are presenting and not your opinions, then tell me, just where do your "facts" come from? I wasn't stating an "opinion". I was stating a viewpoint... a perspective derived from study. Each of our individual 'viewpoints' will be influenced by where we grew up, how we were taught, what we were taught, the attitudes, traditions, customs, beliefs, etc., of the people with which we grew up. I'd be interested to know why Geza Vermes believes that Yshwe(known as Jesus) was killed. Please let me clarify... I am not a 'Christian apologist'... I am merely one who engages in discussion in my journey of seeking through this life(without the need to mock others, I might add  )... one who questions their own belief as much as any other. I think the difference between good and evil lies with us, within ourselves, not in the strictures of beliefs. Beliefs are meant to be guides. So the Hindu's have blind faith also, in your opinion? (and yes, it is your opinion) The argument could well be made then that every faith is a blind faith. I have a broader perspective, as outlined above. There are many factors that influence what we come to believe and to accept. I think it is very interesting that you don't even see your own 'blind faith', but have no problem accusing and attacking others. I don't do that, nor would I ever feel the need to. There are glaring realities about your belief that you refuse to accept because you are comfortable with your faith. And that is fine... we should each be comfortable with our faith... and then the Creator will decide. Meanwhile I only present to you what seems right to me, and why. Can you present to me what seems right to you and why? You are good about telling me why you don't accept my faith, but what about telling me why you do accept yours? Shukran and salaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 8:24am
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Thankyou Caringheart! I am totally grateful and appreciative of your prayers, because they worked on me big time! I love you! When I woke up today, my fear was gone. As I walked towards the supermarket to do the shopping, I just started singing spontaneously. Halfway to the supermarket, I pop into the Sri Chinmoy Centre and sign up for their Meditation Week. Meditation seems to be the only thing that helps my depression. When I was talking to the girl at the centre, I told her that even though I was never really been drawn towards Sri Chinmoy, I find the people at the centre so loving and kind and full of light. When I said that she beamed and flushed - and then that triggers off my humanity love - and then that triggers off my love of God. That's my Christian philosophy in a nutshell: Of doing the second greatest commandment to do the greatest commandment. I don't know what a Christian Apologist is, but in my own way I am a Christian Apologist: I apologise to Muslims in the western world who have to put up with the prevailing attitudes of fear, ignorance, distrust and Islamaphobia. Caringheart, in Matthew 28:19 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Since 1968, when I became a Christian, I have always believed this and still do, but without believing it was trinity. I was always vaguely aware of the word "trinity", but never gave it any attention to what it might mean. And then 8 years ago, a Muslim pointed out what "trinity" means. And I said "No way! That's against the 10 commandments!!!" I was shocked! I always wondered why Christians were so narrow minded and unaccepting of other religions but couldn't figger out why (well, except for the "I am the way, the truth,etc - which is interpreted out of context). The point I want to make is that this does not prove trinity! You still need the "Trinity Precedent" that proves that God is connected to the number three. There is no proof that trinity exists. Period. I rest my case. I do completely disagree with the one God alliance of religions. I believe that this is the coming deception... a deception for which the wheels were put in motion 1400 years ago. Deception??? It's OK, Caringheart. Most Christians are going to find my point of view very threatening, according to their Christian conditioning. I can understand. However, you need to understand that all other religions feel threatened by Christianitys' lack of tolerance for all other religions, because apparently "Jesus is the only way." That is why Christianity is the most separatist religion in the world. Because they believe they have exclusive ownership of God! But the only true intercessor is an individuals willingness to accept God in their life, regardless of the religion they might choose as a vehicle for worshipping that One God. A Christian approached a Native American medicine man and said: "Why do you not say anything about my religion? don't you realize that Jesus is Lord?" And the medicine man replied: "Jesus is not lord. God is Lord!" So, I say to all religions: "To hang with those party-pooping Christians. Let's form an alliance based on a One God; based on love, mutual respect and understanding - To promote peace in this world." Satan divides - but God unites. Now figger out which groups of people divide and which groups of people unite. Which groups are exclusive and which groups are inclusive. Which groups are more likely to promote war and which groups are more likely to promote peace. You decide. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 1:00pm
Greetings Eoah, Praise God. I am so happy to hear you feeling better. God is the true healer. I will be keeping you in prayer today as well.I also find meditation to be very helpful when I need to connect with my Maker. You may be surprised, but I essentially agree with what you have written. (although I believe in the Trinity... because I do find the precedent for it according to what is written in the scriptures... I am open minded about its concept, and what others do, or do not, accept. Either way, it is the Creator to whom goes the glory. The whole concept of the Creator will remain a mystery until the day we meet Him and all will be clear.)And you are correct, God unites... that is why I believe it is not about 'an alliance of religions', but about an alliance of people. When we learn what it is to truly serve the Creator, and to stop opposing those who do serve Him just because they serve in their own way. The ones we should fear are those that do not serve the purposes of preservation of the creation. I agree with you, those that divide are those that serve the purpose of satan. Peace and blessings to you, and keep smiling, it is time for my prayers Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 6:17pm
Who's "backpedaling"? We have seen the facts already. You just don't want to to acknowledge them.
 Oh, my mistake! You weren't "stating an opinion" just your "viewpoint". Well, sorry to burst your bubble but they are one and the same thing since your "viewpoint" is based on false information which you try to pass off as the truth. Hence, you are only stating your opinions. Opinions are not facts.
Now, now...don't change the subject. You apologists do that all too often when you are faced with difficult questions. We are talking about the trinity, aren't we? You have claimed that the trinity doctrine can be found in the Bible. I have shown that your claim is baloney. I showed you how the Bible contradicts itself on the baptismal formula and how the "father, son and holy spirit" formula is a later addition. Tell me, why did "Jesus" contradict himself by saying in one place that he was sent only the "lost sheep of Israel" but in another, he told his disciples to go to all nations? Tell my what the baptismal formula is supposed to be? Is it in the name of the "father, son and holy spirit" as Matthew 28 claims or is it in the name of Jesus or "into Jesus" as claimed in Acts?
Sure, sure... You are a Christian apologist because you believe blindly in the Bible and refuse to acknowledge valid criticisms of it. Case in point: you completely ignored the issue I raised in the last post when I showed that the baptismal formula of Matthew 28 is a corruption of the early Gentile church. Instead of responding to the issue at hand, you tried to weasel your way out by changing the subject! For shame! Ooops, am I mocking?
Well let me see...praying to a lifeless statue...hmmm... Yep, sounds like blind faith to me! The point of bringing up Hinduism was to refute your childish logic in claiming that just because the trinitarian belief has been around for a long time, it somehow means that it is the truth. Like the typical apologist, you again tried to dance around the issue, refusing to acknowledge that your logic is pathetically absurd. Using your logic, you should be a Hindu, as both Ron and I have pointed out.
What "blind faith" are you referring to? Care to give an example? You see, blind Christian fanatic, I have actually studied both my own religion and other religions, Christianity most of all. It has been based on my study, using both Muslim and non-Muslim scholarly sources, that I have come to the inevitable conclusion that Islam is the truth and that all other religions are false, Christianity most of all. In fact, I am so sure that if I were ever to come to "doubt" Islam (which has 0 probability), I would never even consider Christianity or the other religions as an alternative, now would I consider atheism. The only alternative would be Deism, which even though I have some grievances about it, makes more sense to me than any other religion, with the exception of Islam. In contrast, you have exhibited the typical brainwashed nature that I have come to expect from Christian apologists. You know very little about Islam (and what little information you have comes from pseudo-scholarly sources). Ironically, you have even exhibited a laughable ignorance of your own Bible at times! So yes, you are a blind Christian apologist. How embarrassing it must be for you!  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
)...
one who questions their own belief as much as any other. I think the
difference between good and evil lies with us, within ourselves, not in
the strictures of beliefs. Beliefs are meant to be guides.Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 7:59pm
and again, you felt the need to end with attempts at insults.  *sighIt does not help in any way to prove you are more knowledgeable than I. You still have not said with any clarity why you accept your faith. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 June 2014 at 8:30pm
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[QUOTE=islamispeace] As the late Biblical scholar Geza Vermes stated: "The saying is ascribed to the risen Jesus appearing on a Galilean mountain, an event foretold in Mark..., but attested exclusively attested in Matthew. The main message, viz. a worldwide mission of the envoys of Jesus, contradicts his prohibition on approaching non-Jews...In fact, the passage contains further ideas unrecorded elsewhere in the New Testament. [...] In the earlier missionary programmes there was no question of baptism, let alone baptizing all the nations. Moreover, baptism administered in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in unheard of not just in the Gospels but in whole New Testament. The formula occurring in the Acts of the Apostles is baptism 'into' or 'in the name of Jesus' (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5), and baptism 'into Christ' in Paul (Rom. 6:3, Gal. 3:7). Outside Matthew, the trinitarian formula, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, first occurs in the early church manual entitled the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, which is dated to the first half of 2nd century AD. All this points to a late Gentile-Christian origin for Matthew 28:18-20." ("The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 54) [quote] I went back to your earlier post, as I said I would, and if this is what you were referring to... I didn't respond because essentially it reads as so much nonsense. I could provide plenty of evidence to refute these statements but I know that you would not listen to anything anyway, so why bother. I really don't have time and energy to waste. I say this because I have provided other links at other times that you flatly refuse to consider. If you have any actual interest I recommend listening to this: http://www.catholic.com/audio-player/6837 It's what I came across as I was exploring into my own answers. I actually take the time to look at any information regarding islam and Muhammad when it is presented to me. Peace and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 5:10am
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I just googled "Blind Faith" and found out that it is an english blues rock band comprised of Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Steve Winwood and Rick Grech. I've lost the plot!  I don't exactly know what you two are arguing about and I'm going to have to reread the whole thread to figger it out!I think I'm going nuts, today  . But, I'm OK.Hey there Caringheart. Can I ask you, are you rejecting the idea of an alliance of religions because it is not of the Christian faith? For example, do you think that the Shri Chinmoy organisation is evil because they don't accept Jesus as their saviour? Because this idea of an alliance of individuals is a good constructive viewpoint and I agree with you - but without ruling out religious organisations as part of that equation. There are individuals who have their own faith in God, but don't belong to any religious organisation. There are other individuals whom you might term Secular Humanists who have an invested interest in world peace - but don't believe in God. Yet they would accept the concept of "One God" symbolically, just to get in on the kumbaya and the good vibes of this alliance for their own personal altruistic sence of service to humanity. And God has good use for people like that! Caringheart, when I use the term "One God", I am not trying to harass you for believing in trinity, because at some point I need to accept and respect that you believe in trinity, even though I do not. Instead, I'm using "One God" as a convenient point of unity for such an alliance within the diversity of human beings who would have an invested interest in such an organisation for the purposes of world peace. After all, God is the ultimate unity within the diversity of creation! Praise be! Glory to God! Holy, Holy, Holy!!! Allahu Akbar! Now, I'm going to copy and paste the previous four paragraphs into a new thread called: "One God Alliance". O.K? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 12:39pm
Greetings Eoah, You made me laugh... 'english blues rock band'. Isn't google fun? and yes, conversations between islamispeace and myself could make anyone feel like they were going nuts. I, myself, would have to go back and look where islamispeace jumped in. Thanks, laughter is good. Did we derail your thread?  Sorry.I will reply to the rest on your new thread. Hope you are having a blessed day, Caringheart One more question though... Did you read or listen to either of the links I provided in my first post? I'm curious regarding the Trinity... What explanation is there in your mind for the fact that the Creator(Elohim) always refers to Himself in the plural? Thanks, and blessings. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 12:50pm
Hi Ron, I should have replied to this. You miss the rest of my post; "The reason is clear... it has endured because it is God's Truth. It is there in the scriptures. When Yshwe disappeared from the tomb after having been seen placed there in death, and sealed in, and the entrance guarded... when He appeared to many as the risen Christ... all became clear to those who witnessed these things. It was then, they began to understand the words of Yshwe, all that He had been telling to them." Peace and blessings to you, Caringheart I should also restate... that muslims have implied that the Gospels were created by man... and I say, to what purpose? If they wanted to make converts they certainly would not have written something so difficult to be accepted... they would have written what would be easy to accept... so I say it is illogical to make the claim that the Gospels were created, or made up. It's not the fact that 'it's unbelievable that makes me believe it'... it's the fact that no one wanting to be believed would make up such a story. So yes, you are correct... "a more reasonable question would be, why would anyone believe a story so hard to be accepted?" and the only reasonable answer... because they were witnesses to the events. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 3:48pm
My interest was peaked and so I did some exploring of my own on the words blind faith.... On 'blind faith'.... The words blind faith are actually a bit redundant since the dictionaries define "faith" as a "belief that is not based on proof". "Blind faith is a pejorative use of the term faith used to highlight the lack of information involved in matters of faith." ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 June 2014 at 6:17pm
You must have trouble with reading comprehension. I already stated that the facts come from studying scholarly sources. In contrast, your "viewpoint" comes from your own opinions.
What a typical apologetic response...Thank you for proving once again that you are nothing more than a blind apologist. Its no wonder that you haven't even responded to the point I raised. You simply ignored it and then asserted (without explaining why) that I "have shown no such thing".
Any person with an ounce of reason will know that the Gospels are false. There is plenty of proof...the contradictions, the historical errors etc. all prove that the Gospels are false. Let us look at the verses in question again and see if there is a contradiction or not: Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." Acts 2:38 - "Peter replied, �Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Acts 8:16-16 - "When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 10:46-48 - "Then Peter said, 47 �Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.� 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 19:4-7 - "Paul said, �John�s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.� 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues "#fen-NIV-27592b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+19&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27592b - b ] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all." Romans 6:3 - "Or don�t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Galatians 3:27 - "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." So, on the on hand, "Jesus" purportedly told the disciples to baptize people in the name of the "Father, son and holy spirit", yet on more than one occasion, the disciples baptized people only in Jesus' name. That is a contradiction. Either that, or the disciples simply disobeyed Jesus.
Oh really? So the people of Israel had the honor of having Jesus sent to them but us poor Gentiles have to make do with his disciples? Something's wrong with this picture! Furthermore, you once again show how ignorant you are of your own scripture and expose yet another contradiction. You claimed that the disciples "were sent to go and make disciples of all nations and peoples" yet this directly contradicts what Jesus himself said: Matthew 10:5-8 - "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: �Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: �The kingdom of heaven has come near.� 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, "#fen-NIV-23426a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23426a - a ] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give."
Oh sure, sure. I have yet to see your "criticisms of...the Bible". And like I said before, anyone with an ounce of reason can see that your so-called "scriptures" are not the "Truth". If you haven't been "persuaded", it's because you don't want to be persuaded.
Oh how convenient! The reality is that you didn't respond because you were uncomfortable with the truth. You remind me of a certain video clip. I think I have shown this to you before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_8knBHEyw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_8knBHEyw Guess which one you are?
Oh how you make me laugh! Didn't I give you the opportunity to respond to the points raised by the Vermes source? I asked you to respond, because I want to know how you would reconcile what appears to be an obvious contradiction. You, on the other hand, have decided not to respond! Is that my fault? And by the way, I have been discussing with Christians for over 10 years. I have listened to the "other side", and I have found the counterarguments on that side to be weak and illogical. The evidence against the Bible is overwhelming. You just don't want to admit it.
Huh?! This is your "most prevalent argument against Islam"? You do nothing but spread lies about Islam, and yet insist that you "would never insist someone live according to my beliefs". If that is the case, then why do you speak against Islam like other fanatic missionaries? Why do you refer to sources like Robert Spencer? Also, the irony is that, just a few posts earlier, you stated the following: "Peace unto you. May you one day believe." If you don't "insist [that] someone live according to [your] beliefs", then why did you say "may you one day believe"?
I can't help it if you have trouble with reading comprehension. I have already explained why I believe in Islam and why I believe Christianity is false. I have even shown you proof of the latter. If you want proof of the former, we can discuss it on another thread. This thread is about the trinity doctrine, which is what Eoah's original post was about, or have you forgotten? You still have not shown with any clarity where the Bible mentions the trinity.
Oooh, getting defensive are we? There, there Caringheart. It's okay. I said it before and I will say it again: Blind. Christian. Fanatic. Oh, sorry...was I mocking again? Darn it! I have to cut that out! I am all ears as to the "plenty of evidence to refute these statements..." This is a discussion. Either you can continue it or run away from it. It's your choice. I can have this same discussion with some other Christian. If you are too afraid to comment on the contradictions regarding the baptismal formula, that is fine by me.
I'll check it out when I have more time. Regardless, the contradictions in the Bible remain and you have yet to explain why you feel they are not contradictions. Like I said, I am all ears.
Sure, sure. I suppose all the inaccurate statements you make are the result of all the "time" you take to "look at any information" about Islam. Riiiight.... ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
*sighPosted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 June 2014 at 3:23pm
asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |