The Trinity |
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syed_z
Senior Member Joined: 16 February 2014 Status: Offline Points: 116 |
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Greetings David,
Thank you for your comments.
The reason why we say Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) is the Holy Spirit because he is the leader of all the angels he has specially been assigned with the task to deliver revelations/Holy Books to the Prophets and Messengers. (Al Quran 35:01) Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth; Who made the angels, messengers with wings - two, or three, or four (pairs):... The number of wings determine their ranks. Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu ALaihi Wassallam) saw Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) on the night of his 1st revelation as someone who filled the horizon and 'had seven hundred wings' (Recorded in Bukhari) 'Seven hundred' in Arabic also means hundreds and hundreds! Angels in Islam don't have a will, for if they did, then Hell and Paradise would also be for them and they would be disobeying and obeying like us and the Jinns (The Invisible Beings). Al Quran 66:06 ....angels who never disobey God�s commands to them, but do as they are ordered To help you understand Jinns is something you would refer to English as 'Genie'. Thats where the word comes from. Jinns in your language would be the devils but not all Jinns are evil and Quran confirms that there are pious among them. That is why we have a belief that Satan (Iblis) was not a 'fallen angel', he was one of the Jinn and therefore had a choice between obedience and disobedience and therefore used that freedom to disobey God whom He used to worship a lot at one point. The fact is the Biblical scriptures don't give you people knowledge about many mysteries what Islam, the final revelation gives us. The ultimate knowledge which can help mankind gain proximity to God is in the Quran. That is why Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) is the final and greatest of all Messengers.
Dear David, That is where our Christian Brothers and Sisters cross their line and where we don't. For us Quran makes it distinct for us that regardless of how great the powers of the Prophets, Messenger and the Saints is, we cannot believe them to be the 'Same with God' or 'Equal with God'. Such can easily lead towards Shirk (Associationism or idolatory) an unforgivable sin. Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) performed miracles numbering in thousands yet the companions and Muslims have been careful to cross such lines which you do with Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Sallaam). Consider the following Verse of the Quran: (9:03) And a proclamation from God and His Apostle unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage. God and His Messenger making proclamation which could mean that God and His Messenger are one and the same. Such misinterpretation will be irreparable on the day of judgment. 38:71 Behold, your Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:" 38:72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down in prostration unto him." The Spirit is unified, subtle, unseen and only way of connection to Allah The Most Merciful. The body is made of earth and is always attracted by it. The Ruh (Spirit) inside of us is what helps us generate qualities of Allah (99 Names in Islam) such as Forgiving, Merciful, Justice, Kindness etc. The ones who are able to generate them through Jihad (Struggle against their evil Self/Ego made of earth) are the ones who gain proximity to Allah based on the level they reach.That is why even in Islam, in the hadith scriptures we have a saying of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) that 'Adam was created in God's Image'. Ignorant people would interpret these words literally! The Messengers are the closest, then Prophets and then Saints and then those who come after them. The Messenger that reached a level unlike any other was Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu alaihi Wassallam). Read if you can about something called 'Miraj in Islam', its a spiritual journey that he was gifted by God due the persecution he kept patient with for God's pleasure. But when these people gain nearness to Allah and become the close ones, the traces of their nearness can be seen and felt by those around them. With time their followers begin to assign divine qualities to them which leads the upcoming generations completely astray from the true understanding of their miracles or their miraculous lifestyle. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any questions. Peace be with you. Edited by syed_z - 04 November 2016 at 11:20pm |
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Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
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Gabriel is a holy spirit, but not The Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is God who can dwell in a Christian. We can have God and His Kingdom in us. This is true according to the gospel (Good News).
Edited by Saved - 05 November 2016 at 8:39am |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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Ah, again the same style of response. MY bro, I request you as well as the Admin of this forum to guide you as how to compartmentalize your response in different paragraphs. You can do it if you select "Reply" button and then using "Quote & /quote" commands in brackets. I will show you just one more time what I mean, by enclosing my response that you quoted as well as the first of your paragraph to which I intend to respond, followed by my response. In the second paragraph I shall again quote your response followed by my response.
My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books. Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam. Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand.
Yes, this is possible, but avoiding the main point of the topic and trying to answer secondary issues first, may not be very convincing strategy. Best regards. Edited by AhmadJoyia - 05 November 2016 at 9:00pm |
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Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
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In the gospel Jesus is not the father God; he is the son of God, and He is the Word of God which is the Word God used to create all things. Jesus is part of God not a partner, but the very part of the essence of God as His Word made human. You can say that God created Jesus in the womb of a virgin, but you cannot say Allah's Word didn't always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. You may not see the Quran calling Jesus the word "Be," but I do, because Jesus is called I am in the gospel. As I mentioned, I am and Be are the same verb. Jesus proves he is the word Be from Allah in the Quran when he created life from clay. Only God can do that and only God can forgive sin that separates us from God. Jesus forgave sin according to the gospel, and He created life according to the Quran. You can say it is with Allah's permission, because that also agrees with the gospel read Jn. 1: All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. The Quran is agreeing with the through Jesus part of the gospel. Because it was God who did it through him. Logic should tell us that God doesn't share His creation power with anyone other than Himself.
Regards, Al Edited by Saved - 05 November 2016 at 11:13pm |
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syed_z
Senior Member Joined: 16 February 2014 Status: Offline Points: 116 |
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Jesus, son of Mary (Alaihi Salaam) never said he has come to die for the sins of mankind. Most of your explanation is based on your interpretation. Your scriptures say something else: �And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)
God is His father but he had no father? That's very strange thing to say. It doesn't make sense at all.
This is another claim that you make while gospel scriptures say something different. Saved, I have one Verse of the Quran to share with you. Al Quran 109:6 chapter of the disbelievers To you is your way of life and to me is my way of life PS: Please make sure when you are referring to words such as 'Islam says this and that' ....provide proof and if you cannot then ask us if it does and we will be glad to explain you. But if you make claims and say that Islam says this and that without proof then that is not the way of discussion. You have been doing this on other threads without giving proof. Other than that you are most welcome to follow whatever interpretation you wish to about Gospel. All the best. |
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Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
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I am still open to debate and discuss it and find out why you believe the way you do and what support you have for your claims. That statement of yours just cuts everyone off before they can get into meaningful debate.. Edited by Saved - 06 November 2016 at 2:27pm |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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Since now we know that the four gospels in NT are of anonymous authorship, it is really not very convincing to rely upon such books that might not relate eye-witness accounts of what had been happening around Prophet Jesus. So, all that we read from the gospels is based upon the conjectures depending upon who heard what from whatever sources the anonymous authors got their info from.
My brother I agree, and we all know that our Prophet Jesus's Ministry was much earlier than of our Prophet Mohammad, but would that mean the Bible that you hold now in your/my hands, has the original message of Jesus. I don't think so, especially with the anonymous authorship of these Gospels.
Thanks for your efforts to explanation, but I wonder how many Christian denominations would agree with your definition what to talk about us? Just for your reference, please see the efforts your forefather made to define Jesus.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity But yet the history shows us so many of Christian denominational Churches each differing from one and another on one single issue and that is the divinity of Jesus. And yet we find you hard to explain it to us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Okay!! Now hold on a bit my brother over here. You admit Jesus = Creation of Allah and I also admit that Allah's Word always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. So, do we have a firm agreement on this?
My brother you line of reasoning on mere 'verb' is not very convincing. Whenever, Allah intends to create anything all He would say 'Be' and that shall be created. This word "Be" is not specific to creation of Jesus alone but to all of His creations.
No, my dear brother you just can't assert this on the basis of logic simply because: (1) You can't bind the God of what He can and what He Can't, otherwise He is not a God by definition (2) The OT provides examples of such Miracles to Prophets earlier than Jesus.
Edited by AhmadJoyia - 08 November 2016 at 10:28am |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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>>�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)<<
This was not an original utterance. Jesus was reciting Psalm 22. One cannot understand what Jesus was saying here without reading the entire psalm. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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