Interfaith Dialogue - The Trinity

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The Trinity

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38462
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Topic: The Trinity

Posted By: Saved
Subject: The Trinity
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 12:46pm

The term trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but one cannot deny the concept is there.

No where in the Bible is Christianity commanded to teach on the trinity or explain what makes God tick. What we know about God's triunity is that God is one and He is Spirit. He can never die. He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. This is easily backed up by Scripture.

As for the three alluded to in the Quran, one can intelligently infer that the trinity understood according to Allah in the Quran are the son, mother and father. That would be Jesus, Mary and Allah.

If we look objectively and honestly, we know this from the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Allah makes it clear in the Quran (at least to me) when he states "They do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." So, Allah implies that Christians worship Allah as the third person of the trinity, but nothing could be further from the truth.

What I am hoping to accomplish here is to show the misconceptions Muslims have had for centuries on what Christians believe and what is stated in the gospel about God's triunity.

I see it from a Scriptural perspective and that is Jesus is Allah's Word. Jn. 1 Christians don't believe there are three Gods; we believe there is one God. In fact, monotheism is original to the Judo-Christian faith.

I admit I associate Jesus to Allah as His word, but that is not an idolatrous association. Just like my word in this post is associated to me and your post is to you, God's word is associate to Him. If not, who else would His Word be associated to?

The next thing we learn from Scripture is that Allah is Holy; therefore, it is logical to believe God is the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit was never mention by Allah or his Islamic messenger.

The point I am making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity.

We Christians cannot explain the trinity concept nor are we commanded to do so. But neither can Muslims explain what they mean by God is one.

How can I tell you how God allows His word to be a human person or for His Holy Spirit to be with us and he is one not two or three. I cannot and will not try to make finite human sense of the infinite.

So the debates continue to where Muslims say Christians associate to God and Christians state that Muslims are making association to Allah as well. Personally, I see one as idolatry and the other is not. Ask me why.

PBUY,
Al

Replies:

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 9:21pm

Saved wrote:

The term trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but one cannot deny the concept is there.

No where in the Bible is Christianity commanded to teach on the trinity or explain what makes God tick. What we know about God's triunity is that God is one and He is Spirit. He can never die. He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. This is easily backed up by Scripture.

My dear bro Saved, thanks for opening up a topic, that was debated since the day Trinity was historically dogmatized and is still being debated, especially within the Christian Churches of various denominations. So, instead of wasting time here on what it is or what it is not, IMHO, the more important question is as what is reliable source of information and authentic from God (from our own respective beliefs) and what is not; only then we should be able to defend our respective point of view. I hope we should all agree to this one common point before proceeding further.

Saved wrote:

As for the three alluded to in the Quran, one can intelligently infer that the trinity understood according to Allah in the Quran are the son, mother and father. That would be Jesus, Mary and Allah.

If we look objectively and honestly, we know this from the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Allah makes it clear in the Quran (at least to me) when he states "They do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." So, Allah implies that Christians worship Allah as the third person of the trinity, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Here again, your question relates to historical developments of various Christian sects and their beliefs. Suffice is to say that what Arabian Christians believed in 6th or 7th Century may not be same as what now the Christians believe and same is true with the evolutionary development in the collection of canonized biblical books within different Christian sects. Keyword/phrase for you is to look for 'Christian heretics' and you would find the answer to your own question.

Saved wrote:

..... 1 Christians don't believe there are three Gods; we believe there is one God. In fact, monotheism is original to the Judo-Christian faith.

I am really delighted to know this, at least from you.

Saved wrote:

I admit I associate Jesus to Allah as His word, but that is not an idolatrous association. Just like my word in this post is associated to me and your post is to you, God's word is associate to Him. If not, who else would His Word be associated to?

Ok, if this be the starting point, then let me add few more dimensions to this analogy and see where we end up. Yes it is true that everything that Allah has created or intends to create, all He says the "Word" "Be" and things are created, like the creation of Adam (humans). In the same way, Allah must have said "Word" for the creation of "Jesus" as a special gift to the People in need of him. So, yes we can associate "Jesus" as the 'Word' proceeded from Allah as His wonderful creation. Do you agree?

Saved wrote:

The next thing we learn from Scripture is that Allah is Holy; therefore, it is logical to believe God is the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit was never mention by Allah or his Islamic messenger.

That is not quite true. 'Rouh ul Qoodus' can be translated as 'holy spirit' and is known as angel Gabriel among Muslims.

Saved wrote:

The point I am making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity.

I guess, I have already answered this question by referring you to go through your own development history of various Christian sects. Start with Arian controversy.

Saved wrote:

We Christians cannot explain the trinity concept nor are we commanded to do so. But neither can Muslims explain what they mean by God is one.

Again, my brother you need to learn so much about Islam and the best starting point is Quran. Here is the definition of Allah, by Himself from Quran Ch112:1-4.
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him."

Saved wrote:

How can I tell you how God allows His word to be a human person or for His Holy Spirit to be with us and he is one not two or three. I cannot and will not try to make finite human sense of the infinite.

Well, I have an answer if you agree with it. Why is it difficult to comprehend Allah's Word can't be a created human Jesus? Now, since Allah sent His "Word" Jesus for human guidance, it was all natural for the people to listen, obey and thus get Salvation. Simple and straight without any theological difficulty to understand, I hope.

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 9:02am

There is too much dancing around with language here.

In Christianity, Gabriel is an independent supernatural being with free will. He is used as a tool by God, but Gabriel is not God and so Gabriel is not identical to the Holy Spirit even if the translations seem parallel. Gabriel is only moved by the Holy Spirit.

As I understand Islam, and please correct me if I am mistaken, God and man are always separate. Man is locked in ego and prays to act in parallel to God's will. God does not act directly through individuals in Islam; individuals only submit to God.

In Christianity, we believe Christ enabled the ability of God to use mankind as a tool just as He used Gabriel. Because of Christ, God can enter us and act through us. This was not possible before Jesus. This is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are Christians. We realize that now the Holy Spirit Of God can dwell within us.

In Islam, I most easily see the Holy Spirit in the Ummah. Many personalities and generations and languages working as tools of God in a way that is not individual. The Ummah is a tool of God which acts through mankind, and it seems very close to the Christian idea of the Holy Spirit of God.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 03 November 2016 at 12:01pm

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Saved wrote:

..... 1 Christians don't believe there are three Gods; we believe there is one God. In fact, monotheism is original to the Judo-Christian faith.

I am really delighted to know this, at least from you.

That is not quite true. 'Rouh ul Qoodus' can be translated as 'holy spirit' and is known as angel Gabriel among Muslims.

I guess, I have already answered this question by referring you to go through your own development history of various Christian sects. Start with Arian controversy.

Saved wrote:

We Christians cannot explain the trinity concept nor are we commanded to do so. But neither can Muslims explain what they mean by God is one.

You do have a lot spinning around here. But let's focus of what stands out most. I do want to say I agree with a few of your points, but lets take your advice concerning our personal dialogue. Lets not talk to each other about the trinity for now. Understand however, I am not trying to convince you to believe in the concept of God's triunity. I am simply stating it is not humanly possible to explain God's oneness at this time and that is for both Christian and Muslim alike.

Your next point is of concern because it seems that you need to go back and read what I said carefully, because the Scriptures that came before back my statements here.

Now, I agree that the Quran states Jesus is the Word "Be." In the Quran, Jesus was created, but in the Bible he is the Creator. Jesus existed before all creation with God. He is His word. Jesus is the very Word God used to create all things. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" Jn. 1

What I find interesting is that in the Quran Jesus created a bird, but God can only share His creative power with no one but Himself. Moreover, In Islam Jesus is the Word verb "BE" and in the Bible Jesus is the Word Verb "I am." Notice carefully please: I am and Be are the same verb! Like I am is to Be, that is like Jesus is to God. "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jn. 8: 58

Finally, As the three alluded to in the Quran again the point I was making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity ever not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. Please don't pivot on me here.

Question for you: where does it state Allah's Word cannot be made human by God's power?

PBUY,
Al

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 12:59am

Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 1:17am

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards.

PBUY AhmadJoyia:

Of course I understand. That is what I am doing. I addressed each point you brought up, and I asked you to show me where you got that Allah cannot make His word a person?

You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all.

Regards,
Al

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 10:04pm

Saved wrote:

Now, I agree that the Quran states Jesus is the Word "Be." In the Quran, Jesus was created, but in the Bible he is the Creator. Jesus existed before all creation with God. He is His word. Jesus is the very Word God used to create all things. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" Jn. 1

What I find interesting is that in the Quran Jesus created a bird, but God can only share His creative power with no one but Himself. Moreover, In Islam Jesus is the Word verb "BE" and in the Bible Jesus is the Word Verb "I am." Notice carefully please: I am and Be are the same verb! Like I am is to Be, that is like Jesus is to God. "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jn. 8: 58

In the Quran Allah Al Mighty also referred to Adam (Alaihi Salaam) as the word 'Be':

(3:59) Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became.

Since Adam (alaihi Salaam) is also His Word, then you should also worship him and consider him to be divine like God?

Your concept of Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) performing miracles with his own power and like a creator contradicts what is in the Gospel that he was just a human/man and could do it only by the Grace and Will of Allah.

�Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:� (Acts: 2-22)

In the Quran Allah (swt) makes it absolutely clear that Jesus, son of Mary (alaih Salaam) was performing miracles by the grace and Will of Allah and not independently,

Al Quran 3:49

I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God�s permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God�s permission

Saved wrote:

Finally, As the three alluded to in the Quran again the point I was making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity ever not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. Please don't pivot on me here.

There was a Christian delegation that came to Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassalaam) and he preached and warned them not to say what they attributed towards God i.e. assigning sonship to Him. This is a fact that there were Christians that believed in that concept of trinity.

The Story is taken from Madinah to Karabala Vol 2 Chapter Mubaahila. This story is also recorded in all famous Quran commentaries.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Twelve Christians led by their priest, who were residents of Najran, a city in south-western Arabia near the border with Yemen, came to see the Holy Prophet . They held a conversation with the Holy Prophet and during the conversation they asked as to what belief he held regarding Jesus or Isa . The Holy Prophet replied:

He is the slave of Allah , Messenger of Allah and the �word� of Allah , which He bestowed on Mary 

The priests interjected that Isa is also the �son of Allah � (wa huwa ibnullah).

The Holy Prophet replied:

Subhanahu ayyakunalahu walad

Allah is Pure, and no children can be attributed to Him

They asked: Have you encountered a being born without a father? Since Jesus has no father, then Allah is his father.

The Holy Prophet replied that they produced a strange proof for their claim, since if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet then recited 3rd Sura, Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59

Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became.

They had no answer to this and other proofs presented by the Holy Prophet . They aimlessly furthered the debate but were able to present no flawless proof for their claim.

When they continued arguing and refused to accept the truth then Allah revealed the 3rd Sura, Aal �Imraan Verse 61

Come! Let us gather together - our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then let us humbly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!

When two opposing schools of thought differ on an issue and when dialogue and debate fails to resolve the dispute, then the solution is a Mubaahila or a gathering where the opposing groups supplicate to Allah as follows:

O Lord of the Universe! In this dispute give honour to the proper in this matter and disgrace those that are incorrect

The Holy Prophet brought Hazrath Ali and Hazrath Fatimah Zahra , Hazrath Imam Husayn and Hazrath Imam Hasan and told them :

When I supplicate to Allah against this opposition you all should say, �May it be so� (ameen) The Holy Prophet told those priests that they should also supplicate.

When the Holy Prophet said this, the Pope, Abdul Haris lbne Alqama, the greatest scholar among them, addressed his people: exclaimed and told his followers:

La tu baahilu fatah le ku

Don�t partake in this Mubaahila or all of us will be destroyed

Surprised at his remarks they asked him as to what had happened to him, since he was in high spirits and confident of defeating the Muslims. He said:

Verily I see a divine light on the face of our combatants; I am beholding such faces among them as can make the mountains move from their spots if they pray to God. So beware! Never try to contest with them, otherwise you will perish and the entire nation of Christians will succumb to extinction!

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 10:52pm

syed_z wrote:

Saved wrote:

Now, I agree that the Quran states Jesus is the Word "Be." In the
Quran, Jesus was created, but in the Bible he is the Creator. Jesus
existed before all creation with God. He is His word. Jesus is the very
Word God used to create all things. "In the beginning was the Word and
the Word was with God and the Word was God" Jn. 1

What I find interesting is that in the Quran Jesus created a bird,
but God can only share His creative power with no one but Himself.
Moreover, In Islam Jesus is the Word verb "BE" and in the Bible Jesus is
the Word Verb "I am." Notice carefully please: I am and Be are the same
verb! Like I am is to Be, that is like Jesus is to God. "Very truly I
tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jn. 8: 58

In the Quran Allah Al Mighty also referred to Adam (Alaihi Salaam) as the word 'Be':(3:59) Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same
as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He
became. Since Adam (alaihi Salaam) is also His Word, then you should also worship him and consider him to be divine like God?Your
concept of Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) performing miracles with
his own power and like a creator contradicts what is in the Gospel that
he was just a human/man and could do it only by the Grace and Will of
Allah.<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:
Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;
mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">�Ye
men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among
you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of
you, as ye yourselves also know:� (Acts: 2-22)In the Quran
Allah (swt) makes it absolutely clear that Jesus, son of Mary (alaih
Salaam) was performing miracles by the grace and Will of Allah and not
independently,Al Quran 3:49�I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God�s permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God�s permission</span>

Saved wrote:

Finally, As the three alluded to in the Quran again
the point I was making is there are no Christians that ever believe
Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity ever not before
or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring
to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said
the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. Please don't
pivot on me here.

There was a Christian delegation that came to Prophet
Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassalaam) and he preached and warned them
not to say what they attributed towards God i.e. assigning sonship to
Him. This is a fact that there were Christians that believed in that
concept of trinity. The Story is taken from Madinah to Karabala
Vol 2 Chapter Mubaahila. This story is also recorded in all famous Quran
commentaries.--------------------------------------------------------------------Twelve
Christians led by their priest, who were residents of Najran, a city in
south-western Arabia near the border with Yemen, came to see the Holy
Prophet . They held a conversation with the Holy Prophet and during
the conversation they asked as to what belief he held regarding Jesus
or Isa . The Holy Prophet replied: He is the slave of Allah , Messenger of Allah �� and the �word� of Allah , which He bestowed on Mary  The priests interjected that Isa is also the �son of Allah � (wa huwa ibnullah). The Holy Prophet replied: Subhanahu ayyakunalahu walad Allah is Pure, and no children can be attributed to Him� They asked:� Have you encountered a being born without a father? Since Jesus has no father, then Allah is his father. �The
Holy Prophet replied that they produced a strange proof for their
claim, since if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he
had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had
neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet then recited 3rd Sura,
Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in
the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from
clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became. They had no
answer to this and other proofs presented by the Holy Prophet . They
aimlessly furthered the debate but were able to present no flawless
proof for their claim. When they continued arguing and refused to accept the truth then Allah revealed the 3rd Sura, Aal �Imraan Verse 61Come!
Let us gather together - our sons and your sons, our women and your
women, ourselves and yourselves - then let us humbly pray, and invoke
the curse of Allah on those who lie! When two opposing
schools of thought differ on an issue and when dialogue and debate fails
to resolve the dispute, then the solution is a Mubaahila or a gathering
where the opposing groups supplicate to Allah as follows: O Lord of the Universe! In this dispute give honour to the proper in this matter and disgrace those that are incorrect The
Holy Prophet brought Hazrath Ali and Hazrath Fatimah Zahra , Hazrath
Imam Husayn and Hazrath Imam Hasan and told them : When I supplicate to Allah against this opposition you all should say, �May it be so� (ameen) The Holy Prophet told those priests that they should also supplicate. When
the Holy Prophet said this, the Pope, Abdul Haris lbne Alqama, the
greatest scholar among them, addressed his people: exclaimed and told
his followers: La tu baahilu fatah le ku� Don�t partake in this Mubaahila or all of us will be destroyed �Surprised
at his remarks they asked him as to what had happened to him, since he
was in high spirits and confident of defeating the Muslims.� He said: Verily
I see a divine light on the face of our combatants; I am beholding such
faces among them as can make the mountains move from their spots if
they pray to God. So beware! Never try to contest with them, otherwise
you will perish and the entire nation of Christians will succumb to
extinction!�

Hi Syed,

thanks for your response, yes, Adam was Allah's creation in both the Bible and Quran, but all creation was done through and for Jesus. Jesus is considered to be the second or last Adam according to the gospel. Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience, but grace and truth came through the last Adam Jesus.

You mentioned: ...if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet then recited 3rd Sura, Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59

To this I would say that according to gospel Scripture Adam is considered son of God. Adam had to have been created without biological father or mother to start the human race, but what makes Jesus more special is the fact that he was born without an earthly father's intervention also making God His father.

One of the significant differences between Adam and Jesus is the fact that Jesus was not created. He existed with God as His Word from the beginning. Moreover, God didn't need to start creation making there no need of having a virgin birth; therefore, His virgin birth has a reason that can be found in its original source the gospel. the Quran is a secondary source in regards to His virgin birth, but the Quran doesn't give the reason and the gospel which is the original source of that info does.

True, Jesus may have created the bird with God's power which is not against Scripture that states all thing were created by Him through Him and for Him. Jn. 1 Jesus couldn't be Allah's creation because Allah needed His Word to create. Jesus is the Word be that created Adam and all prophets according to the gospel Allah said is for guidance and light.

PBUY,
Al

PS.... As for invoking a curse on the liars, people may try to do that to True Biblical Christians only to find the curse return from where it came.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 11:14pm

Greetings David,

Thank you for your comments.

DavidC wrote:

There is too much dancing around with language here.

In Christianity, Gabriel is an independent supernatural being with free will. He is used as a tool by God, but Gabriel is not God and so Gabriel is not identical to the Holy Spirit even if the translations seem parallel. Gabriel is only moved by the Holy Spirit.

The reason why we say Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) is the Holy Spirit because he is the leader of all the angels he has specially been assigned with the task to deliver revelations/Holy Books to the Prophets and Messengers.

(Al Quran 35:01) Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth; Who made the angels, messengers with wings - two, or three, or four (pairs):...

The number of wings determine their ranks.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu ALaihi Wassallam) saw Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) on the night of his 1st revelation as someone who filled the horizon and 'had seven hundred wings' (Recorded in Bukhari)

'Seven hundred' in Arabic also means hundreds and hundreds!

Angels in Islam don't have a will, for if they did, then Hell and Paradise would also be for them and they would be disobeying and obeying like us and the Jinns (The Invisible Beings).

Al Quran 66:06

....angels who never disobey God�s commands to them, but do as they are ordered

To help you understand Jinns is something you would refer to English as 'Genie'. Thats where the word comes from. Jinns in your language would be the devils but not all Jinns are evil and Quran confirms that there are pious among them.

That is why we have a belief that Satan (Iblis) was not a 'fallen angel', he was one of the Jinn and therefore had a choice between obedience and disobedience and therefore used that freedom to disobey God whom He used to worship a lot at one point.

The fact is the Biblical scriptures don't give you people knowledge about many mysteries what Islam, the final revelation gives us. The ultimate knowledge which can help mankind gain proximity to God is in the Quran. That is why Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) is the final and greatest of all Messengers.

DavidC wrote:

As I understand Islam, and please correct me if I am mistaken, God and man are always separate. Man is locked in ego and prays to act in parallel to God's will. God does not act directly through individuals in Islam; individuals only submit to God.

In Christianity, we believe Christ enabled the ability of God to use mankind as a tool just as He used Gabriel. Because of Christ, God can enter us and act through us. This was not possible before Jesus. This is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are Christians. We realize that now the Holy Spirit Of God can dwell within us.

Dear David,

That is where our Christian Brothers and Sisters cross their line and where we don't. For us Quran makes it distinct for us that regardless of how great the powers of the Prophets, Messenger and the Saints is, we cannot believe them to be the 'Same with God' or 'Equal with God'. Such can easily lead towards Shirk (Associationism or idolatory) an unforgivable sin.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) performed miracles numbering in thousands yet the companions and Muslims have been careful to cross such lines which you do with Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Sallaam).

Consider the following Verse of the Quran:

(9:03) And a proclamation from God and His Apostle unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage.

God and His Messenger making proclamation which could mean that God and His Messenger are one and the same. Such misinterpretation will be irreparable on the day of judgment.

38:71 Behold, your Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:"

38:72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down in prostration unto him."

The Spirit is unified, subtle, unseen and only way of connection to Allah The Most Merciful. The body is made of earth and is always attracted by it.

The Ruh (Spirit) inside of us is what helps us generate qualities of Allah (99 Names in Islam) such as Forgiving, Merciful, Justice, Kindness etc. The ones who are able to generate them through Jihad (Struggle against their evil Self/Ego made of earth) are the ones who gain proximity to Allah based on the level they reach.

That is why even in Islam, in the hadith scriptures we have a saying of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) that 'Adam was created in God's Image'. Ignorant people would interpret these words literally!

The Messengers are the closest, then Prophets and then Saints and then those who come after them. The Messenger that reached a level unlike any other was Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu alaihi Wassallam). Read if you can about something called 'Miraj in Islam', its a spiritual journey that he was gifted by God due the persecution he kept patient with for God's pleasure.

But when these people gain nearness to Allah and become the close ones, the traces of their nearness can be seen and felt by those around them. With time their followers begin to assign divine qualities to them which leads the upcoming generations completely astray from the true understanding of their miracles or their miraculous lifestyle.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any questions.

Peace be with you.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 8:35am

Gabriel is a holy spirit, but not The Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is God who can dwell in a Christian. We can have God and His Kingdom in us. This is true according to the gospel (Good News).

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 8:49pm

Ah, again the same style of response. MY bro, I request you as well as the Admin of this forum to guide you as how to compartmentalize your response in different paragraphs. You can do it if you select "Reply" button and then using "Quote & /quote" commands in brackets. I will show you just one more time what I mean, by enclosing my response that you quoted as well as the first of your paragraph to which I intend to respond, followed by my response. In the second paragraph I shall again quote your response followed by my response.

Saved wrote:

PBUY AhmadJoyia:

Of course I understand. That is what I am doing. I addressed each point you brought up, and I asked you to show me where you got that Allah cannot make His word a person?

My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books. Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam. Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand.

Saved wrote:

You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all.

Regards,
Al

Yes, this is possible, but avoiding the main point of the topic and trying to answer secondary issues first, may not be very convincing strategy.

Best regards.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 11:10pm

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Ah, again the same style of response. MY bro, I request you as well as the Admin of this forum to guide you as how to compartmentalize your response in different paragraphs. You can do it if you select "Reply" button and then using "Quote & /quote" commands in brackets. I will show you just one more time what I mean, by enclosing my response that you quoted as well as the first of your paragraph to which I intend to respond, followed by my response. In the second paragraph I shall again quote your response followed by my response.

Okay, I think this is what you mean.

I understand completely.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books.

What questions are you referring to?

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam.

I thought the Quran states that Jesus is a Word from Allah? If he is a word from Allah that word is "BE." This confirms the Scripture that came before as the Quran claims it was to do.

In the gospel Jesus is not the father God; he is the son of God, and He is the Word of God which is the Word God used to create all things. Jesus is part of God not a partner, but the very part of the essence of God as His Word made human.

You can say that God created Jesus in the womb of a virgin, but you cannot say Allah's Word didn't always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word.

You may not see the Quran calling Jesus the word "Be," but I do, because Jesus is called I am in the gospel. As I mentioned, I am and Be are the same verb.

Jesus proves he is the word Be from Allah in the Quran when he created life from clay. Only God can do that and only God can forgive sin that separates us from God. Jesus forgave sin according to the gospel, and He created life according to the Quran.

You can say it is with Allah's permission, because that also agrees with the gospel read Jn. 1: All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. The Quran is agreeing with the through Jesus part of the gospel. Because it was God who did it through him. Logic should tell us that God doesn't share His creation power with anyone other than Himself.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand..

All they did was coin the term trinity at Nicea. The concept was always in the gospel Scripture. What makes this evident is God calls Jesus His beloved son, and he even calls Him God Heb. 1. I don't need to argue what is explicitly clear in the gospel. Please read the first post on this thread. This is where I answered a lot of question of yours.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all. .

Read the first post.

Regards,
Al

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 8:22am

Saved wrote:

thanks for your response, yes, Adam was Allah's creation in both the Bible and Quran, but all creation was done through and for Jesus. Jesus is considered to be the second or last Adam according to the gospel. Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience, but grace and truth came through the last Adam Jesus.

Jesus, son of Mary (Alaihi Salaam) never said he has come to die for the sins of mankind. Most of your explanation is based on your interpretation.

Your scriptures say something else:

�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)

Saved wrote:

To this I would say that according to gospel Scripture Adam is considered son of God. Adam had to have been created without biological father or mother to start the human race, but what makes Jesus more special is the fact that he was born without an earthly father's intervention also making God His father.

God is His father but he had no father? That's very strange thing to say. It doesn't make sense at all.

Saved wrote:

True, Jesus may have created the bird with God's power which is not against Scripture that states all thing were created by Him through Him and for Him. Jn. 1 Jesus couldn't be Allah's creation because Allah needed His Word to create. Jesus is the Word be that created Adam and all prophets according to the gospel Allah said is for guidance and light.

This is another claim that you make while gospel scriptures say something different.

Saved,

I have one Verse of the Quran to share with you.

Al Quran 109:6 chapter of the disbelievers

To you is your way of life and to me is my way of life

PS: Please make sure when you are referring to words such as 'Islam says this and that' ....provide proof and if you cannot then ask us if it does and we will be glad to explain you.

But if you make claims and say that Islam says this and that without proof then that is not the way of discussion. You have been doing this on other threads without giving proof.

Other than that you are most welcome to follow whatever interpretation you wish to about Gospel.

All the best.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 2:16pm

syed_z wrote:

Jesus, son of Mary (Alaihi Salaam) never said he has come to die for the sins of mankind. Most of your explanation is based on your interpretation.Your scriptures say something else:�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)

Jesus said, I lay down my life for the sheep and I have power to take my life back again. Jesus became sin for us that is why God turned his back on him for a short time. To save time, I will back up all I say of the gospel when challenged.

syed_z wrote:

God is His father but he had no father? That's very strange thing to say. It doesn't make sense at all.

Jesus called God his father and God called Jesus His son. Your debate is with God and Jesus not me. FYI, Joseph was Jesus' father by marriage and God was His Spiritual father in heaven. There is no reaon to refer to Him as son of His mother!!! Those this make sense to you now? If not, at least pray about it.

syed_z wrote:

This is another claim that you make while gospel scriptures say something different.

You have proved no false claims as of yet. With all due respect bro, you appear to confuse what you don't want to believe with being a false claim.

syed_z wrote:

Saved,I have one Verse of the Quran to share with you. Al Quran 109:6 chapter of the disbelievers To you is your way of life and to me is my way of life PS: Please make sure when you are referring to words such as 'Islam says this and that' ....provide proof and if you cannot then ask us if it does and we will be glad to explain you...

According to that statement why have a discussion or debate. Even though our way of life is different that doesn't make either one of us disbelievers in God. Calling a Christian a disbeliever is insulting, but I am not offended.

I am still open to debate and discuss it and find out why you believe the way you do and what support you have for your claims. That statement of yours just cuts everyone off before they can get into meaningful debate..

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 10:19am

Saved wrote:

Okay, I think this is what you mean.

Yes, that's correct, my brother. Thanks.

Saved wrote:

What questions are you referring to?

Since now we know that the four gospels in NT are of anonymous authorship, it is really not very convincing to rely upon such books that might not relate eye-witness accounts of what had been happening around Prophet Jesus. So, all that we read from the gospels is based upon the conjectures depending upon who heard what from whatever sources the anonymous authors got their info from.

Saved wrote:

I thought the Quran states that Jesus is a Word from Allah? If he is a word from Allah that word is "BE." This confirms the Scripture that came before as the Quran claims it was to do.

My brother I agree, and we all know that our Prophet Jesus's Ministry was much earlier than of our Prophet Mohammad, but would that mean the Bible that you hold now in your/my hands, has the original message of Jesus. I don't think so, especially with the anonymous authorship of these Gospels.

Saved wrote:

In the gospel Jesus is not the father God; he is the son of God, and He is the Word of God which is the Word God used to create all things. Jesus is part of God not a partner, but the very part of the essence of God as His Word made human.

Thanks for your efforts to explanation, but I wonder how many Christian denominations would agree with your definition what to talk about us? Just for your reference, please see the efforts your forefather made to define Jesus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity%20 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

But yet the history shows us so many of Christian denominational Churches each differing from one and another on one single issue and that is the divinity of Jesus. And yet we find you hard to explain it to us. %20https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations%20 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Saved wrote:

You can say that God created Jesus in the womb of a virgin, but you cannot say Allah's Word didn't always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word.

Okay!! Now hold on a bit my brother over here. You admit Jesus = Creation of Allah and I also admit that Allah's Word always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. So, do we have a firm agreement on this?

Saved wrote:

You may not see the Quran calling Jesus the word "Be," but I do, because Jesus is called I am in the gospel. As I mentioned, I am and Be are the same verb.

My brother you line of reasoning on mere 'verb' is not very convincing. Whenever, Allah intends to create anything all He would say 'Be' and that shall be created. This word "Be" is not specific to creation of Jesus alone but to all of His creations.

Saved wrote:

Jesus proves he is the word Be from Allah in the Quran when he created life from clay. Only God can do that and only God can forgive sin that separates us from God. Jesus forgave sin according to the gospel, and He created life according to the Quran.

Brother here you are negating your own admission that Jesus was the creation of God. How can you switch Creation into Creator? Secondly, Allah's will to award any power to any of his chosen Prophet is not very uncommon, where OT does show that Miracle of creating life is not unique to our Beloved prophet Jesus alone.

Saved wrote:

You can say it is with Allah's permission, because that also agrees with the gospel read Jn. 1: All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. The Quran is agreeing with the through Jesus part of the gospel. Because it was God who did it through him.

Okay. Good.

Saved wrote:

Logic should tell us that God doesn't share His creation power with anyone other than Himself.

No, my dear brother you just can't assert this on the basis of logic simply because: (1) You can't bind the God of what He can and what He Can't, otherwise He is not a God by definition (2) The OT provides examples of such Miracles to Prophets earlier than Jesus.

Saved wrote:

All they did was coin the term trinity at Nicea. The concept was always in the gospel Scripture. What makes this evident is God calls Jesus His beloved son, and he even calls Him God

Yes my brother when trying to defend 1+1+1=1, you have changed it into something like 1x1x1=1. But the question is can you justify the self contradictory statements of gospels and say son=God? Of course your forefathers have already spent thousands years to convince each other as what is Trinity, but you would also agree that this has resulted in far more disagreements and creation of so many Christian denominations where no one agrees with the other as who the Jesus was.

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 12:40pm

>>�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)<<

This was not an original utterance. Jesus was reciting Psalm 22. One cannot understand what Jesus was saying here without reading the entire psalm.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 12:44pm

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Yes, that's correct, my brother. Thanks.

Good

I see what you saying, but I am just trying to eliminate misconceptions you have about True Biblical Christianity and how I see this. I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. You make your own choices.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

My brother I agree, and we all know that our Prophet Jesus's Ministry was much earlier than of our Prophet Mohammad, but would that mean the Bible that you hold now in your/my hands, has the original message of Jesus. I don't think so, especially with the anonymous authorship of these Gospels.

Why would I need to doubt? I believe God is able to conserve the gospel He sent for guidance and light. Doesn't Allah say his word is unalterable. Where would logic be if I didn't believe he is referring to all His word?

AhmadJoyia wrote:

But yet the history shows us so many of Christian denominational Churches each differing from one and another on one single issue and that is the divinity of Jesus. And yet we find you hard to explain it to us.

They don't differ in the central gospel message. That Jesus died for our sin as the Lamb of God and through Him only can we receive salvation as a gift from God and not something we earn in our own strength which doesn't glorify God but man!

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Okay!! Now hold on a bit my brother over here. You admit Jesus = Creation of Allah and I also admit that Allah's Word always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. So, do we have a firm agreement on this?

Yes, we agree to only a point. I am saying that only the flesh and blood of Jesus was created from God's word not as a result of God's word. Do you understand the difference? Jesus is the human result of God's Word. The word was made flesh. In the beginning before all prophets was the word. the word was with God and the Word was God. Jn. 1

AhmadJoyia wrote:

My brother you line of reasoning on mere 'verb' is not very convincing. Whenever, Allah intends to create anything all He would say 'Be' and that shall be created. This word "Be" is not specific to creation of Jesus alone but to all of His creations.

What I am saying is Jesus is the Word verb Be and not a result of the verb Be, according to the gospel.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Brother here you are negating your own admission that Jesus was the creation of God. How can you switch Creation into Creator? Secondly, Allah's will to award any power to any of his chosen Prophet is not very uncommon, where OT does show that Miracle of creating life is not unique to our Beloved prophet Jesus alone.

I am not negating it. I am just saying Jesus is God's Word made human; call it creation if you like, but understand there is a difference between the creation of Adam and Jesus. For instance, Adam was created by the word of God and Jesus is the word of God that created Adam. That is why Jesus was able to say: "Before Abraham was I am" Jesus the Word created him. Jesus = The Word of God. I don't know how to make this clearer to you. This is what the gospel shows us. Maybe you can understand it this way: you believe angels are made from light and jinn from fire. You believe man was made from the earth, but Jesus was made from the Word and not as a result of it. This can be said of no other prophet.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

[ Okay. Good.

So you agree?

AhmadJoyia wrote:

No, my dear brother you just can't assert this on the basis of logic simply because: (1) You can't bind the God of what He can and what He Can't, otherwise He is not a God by definition (2) The OT provides examples of such Miracles to Prophets earlier than Jesus.

You are the one binding what God can and cannot do. You say he cannot have a son; You say God can't make His word a human who preexisted with God before the worlds were created.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Yes my brother when trying to defend 1+1+1=1, you have changed it into something like 1x1x1=1. But the question is can you justify the self contradictory statements of gospels and say son=God? Of course your forefathers have already spent thousands years to convince each other as what is Trinity, but you would also agree that this has resulted in far more disagreements and creation of so many Christian denominations where no one agrees with the other as who the Jesus was.

1+1+1=3 and it always will. We cannot understand what makes God tick using finite examples of God's creation or math. Math uses calculation process that involves different number sequences and time. It is God's creation. Using the logic of math to explain God is what should be considered flawed reasoning because the truth is God is passed finding out using finite human methods.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 7:02pm

DavidC wrote:

>>�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)<<

This was not an original utterance. Jesus was reciting Psalm 22. One cannot understand what Jesus was saying here without reading the entire psalm.

Yes, and it would be really clear reading Isaiah 53

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 7:05pm

Good reasoning here. There are so many prophecies in the OT about Jesus that were fulfilled in the gospel account. That is one reason I trust the gospel.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 7:50pm

Its strange that Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) whom the Christians claimed that he came to die for the sins of mankind would utter words contrary to his mission.

Also why would he complain to God about forsaking him when he was 'god' himself.

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 7:27am

syed_z wrote:

Its strange that Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) whom the Christians claimed that he came to die for the sins of mankind would utter words contrary to his mission.Also why would he complain to God about forsaking him when he was 'god' himself.

I find it hard to believe you read Psalm 22.

Christians believe that Christ laid aside his divinity during his life as Jesus of Nazareth so that he could experience the limitations of humanity, and demonstrate the possibilities humans held which we were unaware of.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 2:42pm

Jesus's complaint proves he died for our sin. God turned his back on Jesus for a short time, because he became the curse and sin and took the punishment we deserved. You really need to read Isaiah 53 and Ps. 22... Jesus said, "You will die in you sin unless you believe I am he" do you think He was joking?

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 13 November 2016 at 2:07am

Okay!! Very interesting indeed. At such a critical juncture of his life, Jesus recalling and quoting just a phrase from Psalm 22, could mean different to different people. So, brother DavidC, please enlighten us as what do you understand of it.

Secondly, I still waiting for your in depth response on two aspects of Christian history.
1) Development and evolution of Trinity through centuries of human effort as against God inspired.

2) Anonymous authorship of Biblical books (both OT & NT) negating initial stance of being true Eye Witness accounts.

Best regards.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 13 November 2016 at 11:41am

We don't need to know who the human authors of the Bible are; what is important is whether it is truth or not. If it is truth as pertaining to one's salvation, it is coming from God. You can know an author that doesn't mean you have truth. Especially if the author is corrupt.

Next, the only two branches or aspects of Christianity are the nominal Christians that know about Jesus and the true Biblical Christians that know Jesus. There is a night and day and life and death difference.

As for the trinity the term doesn't exist in the gospel nor are we told to teach about it. As for Nicea, they coined the term trinity there and NOT the concept. The earliest church after Jesus' ascension always believe Jesus was and is the son of God. The gospel says when we ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit after accepting Christ as our savior, God's Holy Spirit of Truth joins with ours and we experience an internal confirmation from God directly in and with our spirit. We experience the oneness with God that Jesus prayed we would. I have experience this and there is nothing on earth that can come close to matching it.

Blessing to you,
Al

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 6:28am

AhmadJoyia wrote:

The essence of Psalm 22 is a prayer that God's will be done, and an affirmation of the wisdom of God in spite of personal suffering.

Please focus question one. Kindly give me a question suitable for a one or two sentence answer. My history isn't that strong, and your question requires a book to answer.

The gospels are all titled "The Gospel According to . . ." The oral histories of the four Apostles were all dictated to anonymous scribes. We know who told the stories but we don't know who wrote the books.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 7:17am

DavidC wrote:

AhmadJoyia wrote:

The essence of Psalm 22 is a prayer that God's will be done, and an affirmation of the wisdom of God in spite of personal suffering.

This implies either god is deceiving himself or Jesus can never be God. Since first is not possible, one can only conclude that Jesus was not God. Can you see it?

DavidC wrote:

Please focus question one. Kindly give me a question suitable for a one or two sentence answer. My history isn't that strong, and your question requires a book to answer.

No problem my brother, you may not have time to write a book, but for your own sake, do re-read the history that is all what is needed as how Trinity was finally got roots through Royal decree.

DavidC wrote:

The gospels are all titled "The Gospel According to . . ." The oral histories of the four Apostles were all dictated to anonymous scribes. We know who told the stories but we don't know who wrote the books.

Good to know that, if not all, at least this part of history is acknowledged. But Question remains when these scribes (Whosoever they were) wrote from the so called "Oral traditions" and from whom (I can pen down my grand grand grand father's stories and to put credence to my version, I can simply omit the intermediaries)? Of course there were so many other versions of such "Oral traditions", and the question is why picked these 4 and not others and who selected them and on what merit or criteria and rejected others?
Best regards.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 10:59am

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Secondly, I still waiting for your in depth response on two aspects of Christian history.
1) Development and evolution of Trinity through centuries of human effort as against God inspired.

I have addressed this. There is no need for a long explanation.

AhmadJoyia wrote:

This implies either god is deceiving himself or Jesus can never be God. Since first is not possible, one can only conclude that Jesus was not God. Can you see it?

The Bible doesn't claim Jesus is the father God and neither do Christians. He is the word of God that the Scriptures state was God. Jn. 1

AhmadJoyia wrote:

Good to know that, if not all, at least this part of history is acknowledged. But Question remains when these scribes (Whosoever they were) wrote from the so called "Oral traditions" and from whom (I can pen down my grand grand grand father's stories and to put credence to my version, I can simply omit the intermediaries)? Of course there were so many other versions of such "Oral traditions", and the question is why picked these 4 and not others and who selected them and on what merit or criteria and rejected others?
Best regards.

The different versions of oral tradition incorporated in the gospel never contradict the central gospel message. God made sure we had that intact. One message that contradicts the central gospel message is the Quran that came centuries after the gospel was written. What I don't understand is the Quran is suppose to confirm the gospel it states Allah sent for guidance and light. I find that it doesn't confirm but attempts to usurp the gospel. I could be wrong but I cannot see how.

The gospel had been plagiarized many times I am sure, but there are couple of examples I can give off the top of my head. Let's say I trust the primary source over a secondary one. Well, I'll give one little example:

The prophet Joseph Smith came up with the BOOK of Mormon. Mormons claim he is the seal of the prophets, but we can see that the Smith's book borrowed from the Bible; he even copied translational errors that are in the KJV of the Bible. I can go on, but I'll stop here.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 8:18pm

Dear David,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on Jesus (alaihi Salaam) reading Psalms. I was just sharing my thoughts on it. Its hard for my mind to accept those words coming from Jesus if I am someone who believes in 'Original Sin' concept.

No offense my dear brother. Please ask any questions about Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) in Islam if you have.

Hope you're having a good day. Peace.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 11:36pm

Saved wrote:

You say:
"Allah makes it clear in the Quran (at least to me) when he states "They do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." So, Allah implies that Christians worship Allah as the third person of the trinity,"

Dear Saved,

Do you read the Quran or just people say? or your own embroider Allah words?
The truth is: "... Walaataquuluu tsalaatsatun (And please do not say God is three) .. intahuu khairallakum (please stop you say it, it's better for you) .. innallaahu ilaahuwwahidun (only Allah, the only one God)" and the next sentence is: "Glory to Allah from the assumption has a son,..."

Most people know that Islam is famous with "Tawheed" and very different with the Trinity (Quran 112:1-4)

Now I want to ask you, what is the name of the religion brought by Jesus when he was still on earth? Nazrani, Christian, Catholic, or are there other names? Thank you.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 15 November 2016 at 9:26am

asep48garut60 wrote:

Hi Asep:

Jesus didn't teach about religion; He taught us relationship with God through Him.

As for Allah saying "Say not three it is better for you..." I am not questioning that verse. I know about it. I was focusing on who the three are according to or implied by Allah in the Quran.

For instance, Allah also said: "They do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" Which obviously implies that Christians believe Allah was the third person of the three or the trinity he said not to say; moreover, he questions Jesus saying "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?"

The only logical inference one can make from this is that Allah implies Christians should stop calling Jesus, Mary and Allah the three with Allah as the third person. But who does that? I know of no Christians past or present who believe in God's triunity in such an abominable way. There are no Christians on earth that believe the son, mother, and father are the trinity.

My question is didn't Allah and Islam's messenger know that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the three that he said not to say to all Christians? I mean you no offense, but I am just a critical thinker. The gospel tells us not to believe every spirit but to check it out carefully and with pray.

Finally, I also know about "tawheed" a term that is not in the Quran just as the term "trinity" is not in the Bible. Thanks for your response.

Blessings,
Al

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:09am

Saved wrote:

I have addressed this. There is no need for a long explanation.

Okay,I have responded it after this post, accordingly.

Saved wrote:

AhmadJoyia wrote:

This implies either god is deceiving himself or Jesus can never be God. Since first is not possible, one can only conclude that Jesus was not God. Can you see it?

The Bible doesn't claim Jesus is the father God and neither do Christians. He is the word of God that the Scriptures state was God. Jn. 1

Come on brother, there is no need to play with the words like Father God, God, Son God, all equal etc. Your similar effort is also not very convincing when you were bent upon making us understand that a verb "Word" somehow = Noun "Word". Are you challenging the grammatical rules to fit your concept of triune god more plausible? I don't think so.

Saved wrote:

The different versions of oral tradition incorporated in the gospel never contradict the central gospel message.

Yes, my brother again you have tried to answer to a wrong question. I didn't question about variations within Gospels (that could be an important question of some other time), but the soundness in being an eye-witness account. You some how didn't bother to answer it.

Saved wrote:

God made sure we had that intact.

Exactly how? Can you be specific as this is my basic question where series of canonization councils have had books added or removed from the Canon? What was the criteria and who decided it?

Saved wrote:

One message that contradicts the central gospel message is the Quran that came centuries after the gospel was written. What I don't understand is the Quran is suppose to confirm the gospel it states Allah sent for guidance and light. I find that it doesn't confirm but attempts to usurp the gospel. I could be wrong but I cannot see how.

For example? Can you quote which verse or part of Quran does that? Quran specifically negates Trinity and for this you have already admitted that it is not explicitly stated in the anonymous gospels. Even if you find such a conflict with Quran, how can you be so sure that the anonymous gospels provide an inspired message of God? BTW do you seriously believe these books are truely inspired by God? If yes, inspired to whom?

Saved wrote:

The gospel had been plagiarized many times I am sure, but there are couple of examples I can give off the top of my head. Let's say I trust the primary source over a secondary one. Well, I'll give one little example:

The prophet Joseph Smith came up with the BOOK of Mormon. Mormons claim he is the seal of the prophets, but we can see that the Smith's book borrowed from the Bible; he even copied translational errors that are in the KJV of the Bible. I can go on, but I'll stop here.

Your admission of plagiarized gospel and then explain it away through an irrelevant example of LDS, is not understood. I assume, and I am sure I am wrong in this assumption, that if you are trying to equate somehow LDS with Islam, I would only be surprised by your ignorance.

Best regards.

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:47am

Saved wrote:

We don't need to know who the human authors of the Bible are; what is important is whether it is truth or not. If it is truth as pertaining to one's salvation, it is coming from God. You can know an author that doesn't mean you have truth. Especially if the author is corrupt.

O my dear brother how is it even possible to gauge a message's purity if it is anonymous? Anyone can add/delete from it at his own human discretion and yet call it divinely inspired. On the more, inspired to whom? Your logic is counter intuitive even to an ordinary level common sense.

Saved wrote:

Next, the only two branches or aspects of Christianity are the nominal Christians that know about Jesus and the true Biblical Christians that know Jesus. There is a night and day and life and death difference.

Not very convincing statement my brother. Have you ever googled about this topic to find various beliefs among various Christian denominations about Trinity or even about the identity of Christ? If not yet, here is the starting point http://www.religionfacts.com/denominations-beliefs%20 - http://www.religionfacts.com/denominations-beliefs

Saved wrote:

As for the trinity the term doesn't exist in the gospel nor are we told to teach about it. As for Nicea, they coined the term trinity there and NOT the concept. The earliest church after Jesus' ascension always believe Jesus was and is the son of God.
The gospel says when we ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit after accepting Christ as our savior, God's Holy Spirit of Truth joins with ours and we experience an internal confirmation from God directly in and with our spirit. We experience the oneness with God that Jesus prayed we would. I have experience this and there is nothing on earth that can come close to matching it.

My dear brother, after going through the above referred webpage, can you specifically say of which of them do you belong to? Are you Anglican / Methodist / Lutheran etc? And exactly why do you say what you are? I mean what is that special proof with you to make all other Christian denomination less correct than yours?
I hope your answer should solve much of my unanswered questions in this regards.

Best wishes and warm regards

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:56am

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Again my brother, not very convincing argument or should I say sheer ignorance about your own faith. Very curiously, my brother, if you happen to read about the status of Mary under various Christian denominations on the web page that I have referred, you should not miss out the specific word "Theotokos" reserved exclusively for her. Just in case, here is the web page http://www.religionfacts.com/denominations-beliefs - http://www.religionfacts.com/denominations-beliefs

Best regards.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 2:31pm

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

Sorry, here I just conclude that in Islam God is only Allah (only one), and not the same as understanding in the Trinity. Now we have the faith each others, and please if that is what you believe.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:37pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

No, problem, but I am not sure you have understood my comments. I take it that English is not your first language. I am correct in saying so?

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:51pm

Dear Saved,

Yes, you are right and I am always aware that English is not my first language, although I've ever worked in one of the major American companies for 20 years.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 7:02am

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

Yes, you are right and I am always aware that English is not my first language, although I've ever worked in one of the major American companies for 20 years.

Regards,
Asep

Don't get me wrong; I think your English is great considering it is not your first language.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 3:22pm

Dear Saved,

Thanks for your kind response.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 10:32am

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

No, problem, but I am not sure you have understood my comments. I take it that English is not your first language. I am correct in saying so?

Yes, I understand, but what do you mean by Allah is "only one" Does that mean, for instance, he can only be at one place at a time or can he be everywhere? What is only one mean to you outside of the fact that God has no partners or other gods next to Him which I agree?

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 12 January 2017 at 8:48am

Saved wrote:

Peace be unto you.

Saved, you said:

Saved wrote:

The different versions of oral tradition incorporated in the gospel never contradict the central gospel message. God made sure we had that intact.

What is the central message? You mean MEN OPINIONS and IDEAS?

It seems to me some body fool you! The Quran did not conformed what you CLAIMED, but it did conformed the REVELATION that came before it. There is a big difference between the word "BIBLE/GOSPEL" and "REVELATION"

What is the gospel according to you and what is the bible? please explain.

Thank you!

Br. Zainool

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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!