None Believer interprets the Quran

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fogtrik

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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:23am

thanks Amalhayati2,

I'll be sure to get a hard copy and read it from the start. I'm interested to read more of it. Discussion is good. I'll read more links you point me towards. fogtrik.

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Posted: 28 August 2006 at 11:28pm

oh man dude, this is where i role my sleeves up for a fine challange! hahahaha hohohoho hehehehe!!! jk,jk,jk

no seriously, i've been through this before a couple years back... i had a challange by my evolutionary biology teacher, interpreting misunderstood verses. it was thrilling! my teacher got so involved and surprised of the results about the quran and muslims, he kept telling me to come back for more interesting discussion. personally i think i've become a pro at these things.

~~~~

So mister david (fogtrick), lemme get this strait... (ahem,) you read the quran, interpret it literally and limit it's meanings to the english definition of them arabic words.

hmmm... first off, do you know anything about the arabic language?

do you know that one word in arabic could have a number of meanings in english or it's english equivalent might just lightly touch upon the more vast depth of the real meaning in arabic?

before you read the whole quran, there's an introduction. you know, a preface? read it. it shows you how one could approach the Quran.

Lemme enlighten you a little by bringing in an excerpt from the Preface: " Before the reader begins to study the Quran, he must realize that unlike all other writings, this is a unique book with a...universal relevance. It's contents are not confined to a particular theme or style, but contain the foundations for an entire system of life, covering a whole spectrum of issues...These issues are discussed in a variety of ways...Stories of the past are narrated, followed by the lessons to be learned...Given the depth as well as the sublimity of the Quranic text, a faithful translation of it into another language is virtually impossible... But as translation is one of the few ways to export the message of the Quran to allow those lacking in knowledge of Arabic to share the Quran, it becomes a duity for those in a position to fulfil this task (of translating the quran)...The translation by the late Ustadh Abdullah Yousif Ali was consequently chosen for its distinguishing characteristics, such as ...choice of words close to the meaning of the original text, accompanied by scholarly notes and commentaries."

Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm�50: 7

Foggy ol' pal, have you not read the verse "And We have set on earth firm mountains lest it should shake with them," (21:32)

To the perception of the general public, if you go around telling them mountains move, they'll think you're on drugs. tell a kid that mountains are not firm but instead they are wobbly and he'll get nightmares from your ingeniousness.

the experience of an earthquake, where then all things move, is a logical time to bring up a point that plate tectonics make and break mountains. That's where the verse i pointed out comes in.

so when you read a verse in the Quran that says that Allah created mountains standing firm or immovable, that's plain common sense and doesn't negate the existence of earthquakes or plate tectonics.

stating something true doesn't eliminate another equally true thing. Make that a rule of thumb for ya.

� God made earth like a carpet spread out�20:53

With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

Allah made the earth a carpet�71:19

Let's complete the verse so that the reader doesn't get the wrong impression by the use of the word 'carpet' shall we?: Allah has made the earth like a carpet which: 'has enabled you to go about therin by roads..." (20:53)

hmmm... i'm thinking, i'm thinking. &nb sp; &nb sp; nope,

There is nothing in this verse that could make me think that the verse implies the earth is flat. It specifically implies that the earth is 'spread out like a carpet' for us to 'go about therin by roads'.

I think you are getting delusional here. either that or you are thinking too hard. Do this for me. go outside your house. take a look outside. do you see a convex curve of the ground where the middle seems at a higher point than the areas further away from the middle? Does it seem the farther you look from the middle the more it descends downward in a convex motion relating to the roundness of the earth? or do you see the landscape it wide, spread out with roads and avenues in every direction? hmmm? When they say �a hill covered in a carpet of grass' does that imply that the hill is flat?! It would never even cross my mind. it's a phrase that implies vastness and spaciousness.

nuf' said.

I�ll get back to them other verses in the morrow.

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Posted: 28 August 2006 at 2:35pm

Hi folks,

This is the second part of my post about my study of the quran as a true none-believer. You folks see the book as perfect, however I see it from a sceintific point of view. Can you please respond with quran vesus to show that my interpretation is wrong. For example, show me where is states that the sun circles in a galaxy, and the earth orbits the sun and the moon orbits the earth? Because I can't find it in the Quran.

http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm

All quotes are from a pro-islamic site.

http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm

Allah's Flat Earth and His Cosmos.

� Earth spread out (like a carpet), mountains firm�15:19

[al-Hijr 15:19] And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

� Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm�50: 7

� God made earth like a carpet spread out�20:53

[Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

Allah made the earth a carpet�71:19

[Nuh 71:19] "'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),

Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake�16:15

[an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

� Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake�31:10

[Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

� The sun and the moon run its course and Allah regulates all affairs�13:2

[ar-Ra`d 13:2] God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)!

� Allah made constellations in sky and put lamp (the sun) and a moon giving light�25:61

[al-Furqan 25:61] Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

� Allah has appointed mansions for moon till she returns like an old withered palm leaf�36:39

[Ya Sin 36:39] And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

(36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

� The sun's fixed course is underneath Allah's throne�93.528

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--

'And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed), ' (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath "Allah's Throne." (Prostration of Sun trees, stars. mentioned in Qur'an and Hadith does not mean like our prostration but it means that these objects are obedient to their Creator (Allah) and they obey for what they have been created for).

[as-Sajdah 32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?

Show me please more creation versus to put it right?

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fogtrik Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 11 August 2006 Status: Offline Points: 53	Post Options Post Reply Quote fogtrik Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:23am
	thanks Amalhayati2, I'll be sure to get a hard copy and read it from the start. I'm interested to read more of it. Discussion is good. I'll read more links you point me towards. fogtrik.

lovetabuleh Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 14 March 2006 Location: Congo Status: Offline Points: 255	Post Options Post Reply Quote lovetabuleh Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 August 2006 at 11:28pm
	oh man dude, this is where i role my sleeves up for a fine challange! hahahaha hohohoho hehehehe!!! jk,jk,jk no seriously, i've been through this before a couple years back... i had a challange by my evolutionary biology teacher, interpreting misunderstood verses. it was thrilling! my teacher got so involved and surprised of the results about the quran and muslims, he kept telling me to come back for more interesting discussion. personally i think i've become a pro at these things. ~~~~ So mister david (fogtrick), lemme get this strait... (ahem,) you read the quran, interpret it literally and limit it's meanings to the english definition of them arabic words. hmmm... first off, do you know anything about the arabic language? do you know that one word in arabic could have a number of meanings in english or it's english equivalent might just lightly touch upon the more vast depth of the real meaning in arabic? before you read the whole quran, there's an introduction. you know, a preface? read it. it shows you how one could approach the Quran. Lemme enlighten you a little by bringing in an excerpt from the Preface: " Before the reader begins to study the Quran, he must realize that unlike all other writings, this is a unique book with a...universal relevance. It's contents are not confined to a particular theme or style, but contain the foundations for an entire system of life, covering a whole spectrum of issues...These issues are discussed in a variety of ways...Stories of the past are narrated, followed by the lessons to be learned...Given the depth as well as the sublimity of the Quranic text, a faithful translation of it into another language is virtually impossible... But as translation is one of the few ways to export the message of the Quran to allow those lacking in knowledge of Arabic to share the Quran, it becomes a duity for those in a position to fulfil this task (of translating the quran)...The translation by the late Ustadh Abdullah Yousif Ali was consequently chosen for its distinguishing characteristics, such as ...choice of words close to the meaning of the original text, accompanied by scholarly notes and commentaries." Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm�50: 7 <This is wrong because mountains do move thanks to plate tectonics, Muhammad didn�t know about this as proven by this verse> Foggy ol' pal, have you not read the verse "And We have set on earth firm mountains *lest it should shake with them," (21:32) To the perception of the general public, if you go around telling them mountains move, they'll think you're on drugs. tell a kid that mountains are not firm but instead they are wobbly and he'll get nightmares from your ingeniousness. the experience of an earthquake, where then all things move, is a logical time to bring up a point that plate tectonics make and break mountains. That's where the verse i pointed out comes in. so when you read a verse in the Quran that says that Allah created mountains standing firm or immovable, that's plain common sense and doesn't negate the existence of earthquakes or plate tectonics. stating something true doesn't eliminate another equally true thing. Make that a rule of thumb for ya. � God made earth like a carpet spread out�20:53* With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. Allah made the earth a carpet�71:19 <There are two mistakes here. A carpet implies the world is flat (show me where is states is a sphere), it should have said: god made the earth like a mellon but only 100 million times larger. The second error: not all planets are produced in pairs. Some reproduce asexually> Let's complete the verse so that the reader doesn't get the wrong impression by the use of the word 'carpet' shall we?: Allah has made the earth like a carpet which: 'has enabled you to go about therin by roads..." (20:53) hmmm... i'm thinking, i'm thinking. &nb sp; &nb sp; nope, There is nothing in this verse that could make me think that the verse implies the earth is flat. It specifically implies that the earth is 'spread out like a carpet' for us to 'go about therin by roads'. I think you are getting delusional here. either that or you are thinking too hard. Do this for me. go outside your house. take a look outside. do you see a convex curve of the ground where the middle seems at a higher point than the areas further away from the middle? Does it seem the farther you look from the middle the more it descends downward in a convex motion relating to the roundness of the earth? or do you see the landscape it wide, spread out with roads and avenues in every direction? hmmm? When they say �a hill covered in a carpet of grass' does that imply that the hill is flat?! It would never even cross my mind. it's a phrase that implies vastness and spaciousness. nuf' said. I�ll get back to them other verses in the morrow.

fogtrik Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 11 August 2006 Status: Offline Points: 53	Post Options Post Reply Quote fogtrik Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 August 2006 at 2:35pm
	Hi folks, This is the second part of my post about my study of the quran as a true none-believer. You folks see the book as perfect, however I see it from a sceintific point of view. Can you please respond with quran vesus to show that my interpretation is wrong. For example, show me where is states that the sun circles in a galaxy, and the earth orbits the sun and the moon orbits the earth? Because I can't find it in the Quran. <My comments are as such> http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm All quotes are from a pro-islamic site. http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm Allah's Flat Earth and His Cosmos. � Earth spread out (like a carpet), mountains firm�15:19 [al-Hijr 15:19] And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; � Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm�50: 7 <This is wrong because mountains do move thanks to plate tectonics, Muhammad didn�t know about this as proven by this verse> � God made earth like a carpet spread out�20:53 [Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. Allah made the earth a carpet�71:19 [Nuh 71:19] "'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out), <There are two mistakes here. A carpet implies the world is flat (show me where is states is a sphere), it should have said: god made the earth like a mellon but only 100 million times larger. The second error: not all planets are produced in pairs. Some reproduce asexually> Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake�16:15 [an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; <This implies that allah made the rivers, but he never, rivers are self organising systems they don�t need a creator. Early man knew nothing of geology time scale, neither did muhammad.> � Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake�31:10 [Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. <Not all animals exist in pairs, simple animals reproduce by asexual reproduction. There is no male- female sponge. Muhammad didn�t know this! A god would have> � The sun and the moon run its course and Allah regulates all affairs�13:2 [ar-Ra`d 13:2] God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! <god is he who raised the heaven without pillars? This implies that the earth is the center of the universe? Earth is in the arm of a spiral galaxy, one of 100 billion stars in 100 billion galaxies. The sun and moon are not subject to allah�s laws, they are governed by gravity. Muhammad didn�t know that the same gravity pulling an apple also controls the planet. He also didn�t know how fractal the universe is, or that earth wasn�t that important. This is proof of a simple man's POV!> � Allah made constellations in sky and put lamp (the sun) and a moon giving light�25:61 [al-Furqan 25:61] Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light; <There is no proof in the quran that mudammad knew the earth went around the sun, and the sun went around the galaxy, and the moon went around the earth. Here he thinks the moon has its own light, when really the sun gives it the light. Another simple mistake.> � Allah has appointed mansions for moon till she returns like an old withered palm leaf�36:39 [Ya Sin 36:39] And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk. <More proof that Muhammad knew nothing about the moon's orbit and where it went after it sank! A smart man in 600 having seen a solar and lunar eclipse could have figured this out. Proof Muhammad was never told much by god> (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne." � The sun's fixed course is underneath Allah's throne�93.528 Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327: Narrated Abu Dharr: I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:-- 'And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed), ' (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath "Allah's Throne." (Prostration of Sun trees, stars. mentioned in Qur'an and Hadith does not mean like our prostration but it means that these objects are obedient to their Creator (Allah) and they obey for what they have been created for). <the sun is not under allah�s throne? It is really in a galaxy, turning like oil in water, but Muhammad didn�t know this because he didn�t see another galaxy in a telescope, he didn�t know the concept of a galaxy> [as-Sajdah 32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition? <The Arabs were good with maths. Muhammad could have conceptualised a number like 14 billion. God could have told him 14B, he could have understood. This alone is proof that god never talked to a man, yet muslims twist this to say god�s time is different than our time. Nonsense> Show me please more creation versus to put it right?