Presidential debate on Why do they hate us?
But Who Was Right -
Rudy Giuliani or Paul Ron?
A decisive moment of the South Carolina debate.
Hearing Rep. Ron Paul recite the reasons for Arab and Islamic resentment of the United States, including 10 years of bombing and sanctions that brought death to thousands of Iraqis after the Gulf War, Rudy Giuliani broke format and exploded:
"That's really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of 9/11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I have ever heard that before, and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11.
"I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that."
The applause for Rudy's rebuke was thunderous - the soundbite of the night and best moment of Rudy's campaign.
After the debate, on Fox News' "Hannity and Colmes," came one of those delicious moments on live television. As Michael Steele, GOP spokesman, was saying that Paul should probably be cut out of future debates, the running tally of votes by Fox News viewers was showing Ron Paul, with 30 percent, the winner of the debate.
Brother Hannity seemed startled and perplexed by the votes being text-messaged in the thousands to Fox News saying Paul won, Romney was second, Rudy third and McCain far down the track at 4 percent.
When Ron Paul said the 9/11 killers were "over here because we are over there," he was not excusing the mass murderers of 3,000 Americans. He was explaining the roots of hatred out of which the suicide-killers came.
Lest we forget, Osama bin Laden was among the mujahideen whom we, in the Reagan decade, were aiding when they were fighting to expel the Red Army from Afghanistan. We sent them Stinger missiles, Spanish mortars, sniper rifles. And they helped drive the Russians out.
What Ron Paul was addressing was the question of what turned the allies we aided into haters of the United States. Was it the fact that they discovered we have freedom of speech or separation of church and state? Do they hate us because of who we are? Or do they hate us because of what we do?
Osama bin Laden in his declaration of war in the 1990s said it was U.S. troops on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, U.S. bombing and sanctions of a crushed Iraqi people, and U.S. support of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians that were the reasons he and his mujahideen were declaring war on us.
Elsewhere, he has mentioned Sykes-Picot, the secret British-French deal that double-crossed the Arabs who had fought for their freedom alongside Lawrence of Arabia and were rewarded with a quarter century of British-French imperial domination and humiliation.
Almost all agree that, horrible as 9/11 was, it was not anarchic terror. It was political terror, done with a political motive and a political objective.
What does Rudy Giuliani think the political motive was for 9/11?
Was it because we are good and they are evil? Is it because they hate our freedom? Is it that simple?
Ron Paul says Osama bin Laden is delighted we invaded Iraq.
Does the man not have a point? The United States is now tied down in a bloody guerrilla war in the Middle East and increasingly hated in Arab and Islamic countries where we were once hugely admired as the first and greatest of the anti-colonial nations. Does anyone think that Osama is unhappy with what is happening to us in Iraq?
Of the 10 candidates on stage in South Carolina, Dr. Paul alone opposed the war. He alone voted against the war. Have not the last five years vindicated him, when two-thirds of the nation now agrees with him that the war was a mistake, and journalists and politicians left and right are babbling in confession, "If I had only known then what I know now ..."
Rudy implied that Ron Paul was unpatriotic to suggest the violence against us out of the Middle East may be in reaction to U.S. policy in the Middle East. Was President Hoover unpatriotic when, the day after Pearl Harbor, he wrote to friends, "You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bitten."
Pearl Harbor came out of the blue, but it also came out of the troubled history of U.S.-Japanese relations going back 40 years. Hitler's attack on Poland was naked aggression. But to understand it, we must understand what was done at Versailles - after the Germans laid down their arms based on Wilson's 14 Points. We do not excuse - but we must understand.
Ron Paul is no TV debater. But up on that stage in Columbia, he was speaking intolerable truths. Understandably, Republicans do not want him back, telling the country how the party blundered into this misbegotten war.
By all means, throw out of the debate the only man who was right from the beginning on Iraq.
Pat Buchanan has been an advisor to three presidents and has thrice sought the office. A founding panelist of four political television shows, he currently hosts MSNBC's daily news program, "Buchanan & Press" and appears on "The McLaughlin Group." He writes a nationally syndicated newspaper column and is the author of six books including the recent bestseller, The Death of the West, which sold over 200,000 copies. In 2002 Pat Buchanan founded The American Conservative with Scott McConnell and Taki Theodoracopulos
Topics: Conflicts And War, Elections, Fox News Channel, Government And Politics, Iraq, Osama Bin Laden
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They never tire from arming one faction against another and have no scruples or an iota of morality about it. I can't understand why you are so supportive of such faschism disguised as freedom/democratic rubbish. When they invade a country based on lies and mobilise all Western forces and take UN hostage and then pay some tribal/sects and arm them against another whilst they sit tight for hatred and revenge to take root, you and others seem to point the finger at us when the actual fault is with the invaders in the first palce and their abhorent policies towards life in any form or shape except their own power-mongering quest for dominance. It is no secret that Israel is arming and training Kurds to infiltrate into Iran and cause terrorist activities. MKO is another case. Various Baluchi factiuons and juntas are another froms of arsenal for US/UK mayhem policy in the ME. They have armed Arab Southerners to create terrorist actiosn in Khusistan. Take time to read between lines instead of continually seeing the victim as the perpetrator. Sure we are dumb and stupid for playing into their hands, but people of any persuation do stupid things for money. No one is immune to corruption except a man of true faith and they are rare. To be a Muslim is no immunity against power and greed yet Islam came to abolish tribal divisions and join humanity as ONE race. Such is the human lot. Sadly.
Please confer to those videos:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4488542891415681105&q=911
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=911
There is much more videos that confirms it on Google; just tape 911 in the video sub-section.
Best Regards,
JB
I remember Sept. 11, 2001. I said it was a retaliation for the US and Israel rebuking the other nations the meeting in South Africa on Imperialism and possible solutions for the legacy. I knew it was all the US foreign policy, overt and covert, of the 20th century, maybe even the legacy of the Crusades, coming back at us.
Giulani has the poor sense of human connection that history creates. He has shown he cannot think past getting what he wants, the glory (he basked in 9/11 and now he uses it to bolster his empty candidacy. He should not waste valuable debate time. He should go to the Palestinian camps and talk to people who have been suffering 9/11 for over 50 years and three generations.
I cannot speak for my fellow Americans, but I am truly sorry for their ignorance. I wish there was a venue in the world system for the Muslim voice to really count for something. Repression of it has caused the anger and fanatacism in a few that fuels the Bush machine.
I have always argued that there is no Muslim individual, group, or government that has the capacity, the cleverness, and the resources to plan and succeed in bombing targets within USA. I wish we could! The world and the attitude of America would have been totally different.
It is most inconceivable that a Muslim organisation operating from the remote, war-ravaged Afghanistan could successfully plan and launch attacks in NY, USA--a country that, at least according to Western media, had turned its back on the TV, the phone, the computer, electronics, and indeed all the modern gadgets of communication and surveillance.
The debaters should watch videos of 911 IN PLANE SITE, LOOSECHANGE911, ETC and revisit the unfounded venom they vomit on the Muslims. Likewise, Muslim governments, organisations,and leaders who take the 911 story line, hook, and sinker and blame it all on the Muslims should watch these videos.Indeed they should have been guided in their statements by the Qur'aan, which says: 'If a FAASIQ brings news to you investigate it [for evidence].' The 911 story was told by the West and we have no secular reason or religious ground to take it as a TRUE ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED.
America, for reasons known to itself, attacked itself on 9/11 and blamed it all on the Muslims. And Allah will reveal the people behind it. The Qur'aan says: 'Do not ever think that Allah is unaware of what the unjust people are doing.' Yes, He is aware and He will expose and shame them in this life or on the Day of Judgement.
I am surprised that we poor, ill-equipped, ill-connected people in this remote part of the globe have access to those videos; yet highly connected individuals like these, living in USA, are unaware of them! What a civilisation!
This was written by Pat Buchanan. So, there are still American people who can think clearly. The debate was on Fox TV. This is the mouthpiece of Republican. I'm glad that Dr. Paul won the debate. It's time the US learn that Iraq is their second Vietnam.
The deceptive nature by which America and the West have carried out their relationship with the Muslims and the Arabs for almost a century now, which resulted in, among others, the breaking up of the Muslim and Arab world, the lost of respect for Islam and the Muslims, the acute sense of insecurity by the Muslims, the cheapness of a muslim freedom, rights and live on a basis of suspicion and the cheap, baseless, negative and cotinuous propaganda against Islam, Muslims and the Arabs. This attitude of West led by America is bound to generate suspicion in the heart in the heart of the Muslim and the Arabs.
The deceptive nature by which America and the West have carried out their relationship with the Muslims and the Arabs for almost a century now, which resulted in, among others, the breaking up of the Muslim and Arab world, the lost of respect for Islam and the Muslims, the acute sense of insecurity by the Muslims, the cheapness of a muslim freedom, rights and live on a basis of suspicion and the cheap, baseless, negative and cotinuous propaganda against Islam, Muslims and the Arabs. This attitude of West led by America is bound to generate suspicion in the heart in the heart of the Muslim and the Arabs.
You wrote in a note to me "I am sure you know very well that more than 14 hundred years
back the Arabs were much more unruly and savaged but the light of Islam has changed it into a powerful nation.".
Well, Mr Shaiffique, it is sad to say that looking at what is going on in Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza, I wonder if Arabs have shed any of their unruly traits over the last 1400 years. And please don't blame all that on US and Jews. There are civil wars going on in these places, and they cannot be the fault of outsiders only; there is tribal killing going on in Iraq and that is not the fault of US.
You may be hopeful but unfortunately I am not. However, I do differentiate between day dreaming / wishful thinking / hope and reality. I just cannot ignore reality.
It is sad to say that even western educated muslims have stopped thinking; their actions (and thinking) are not any different than they were 1400 years ago.
We reap what we sow. Read your 'bloody' history in the Middle East.
That is amazing for responsible people to be so ignorant of simple laws of human nature and physics. no wonder the world is in such a mess. So, you slap someone in the face and expect him to thank you. People are not all Christ-like, least of all those who profess to be followers of Christ.
"For every action there is a re-action. Equal to its force and opposite in direction." Chew that Rudy.
I am sure you know very well that more than 14 hundred years
back the Arabs were much more unruly and savaged but the
light of Islam has changed it into a powerful nation. So the time
will speak and the Muslims will prosper and bring peace in the
world.
You are very knowledgeable person and you know very well who
is creating this division and creating problem. Brother nothing is
impossible to Allah(I think you dont believe in God or this sort of
believe). God may change your mind and believe than you will
realise the truth of Islam. Night dreams are only dreams but
remember day dreams are mission and vision. May God bless
you... thank you very much for your active involvement in the
discussion and making comments on Islamic matters. It helps
even though you tend disagree on Islamic principles.
Quran tells us, there are 2 parts in a human. body made up of earth and souls with RooH (sprit), which departs from body at our tim eof deaths.
The soul can hear and see. Like our ears can hear and see. But with sins after sins clouding our souls, man's soul stops seeing and hearing.
Therefore man experience these moments, when he look back and try to reason, why I was not hearing or seeing or simply not responding. What was wrong with me.
So we need not to forget that we have an extra pair of eyes and ears through which we can see and hear.
And sins play an important role in making it impared.
Maybe the following photographs will enlighten those of us still confused:
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1698
1. We consider our Judeo-Christian heritage, religion and culture superior to theirs
2. We consider our Euro-ethnicity superior to theirs
3. We treat them as if they are designated for hell and, we, heaven
4. We treat their property as ours and have no qualms about simply taking what we want from them
5. We treat their lives as being worthless and have no issues with killing one person or wiping out an entire family, village or city. A white Christian or Jewish life is important, not a Muslim's life.
6. We treat them like beggars and dole out government aid as a carrot to make them see things only our way. If they do not agree with us we simply kill them or torture them until they see things our way
7. Notwithstanding what God has decreed, our Christian and Jewish clergy overtly preach that Muslims are evil and Islam is the devil's religion
8. We stir up hatred for Muslims and Islam in other cultures and regions of the world.
9. We openly and actively assassinate any Muslim leader of with Islamic proclivities and support secularists against any Muslims, no matter if secularists are tyrants and mass murders such as Karimov of Uzbekistan, who boils Muslims to death for fun. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3943.htm
10. We finance genocide of Muslims and their displacement from their land and property where they lived for centuries, as in Israel- all on some idiotic and moronic religious claim - never mind what Christ said- what Pat Robertson and Bush says is more important. We mobilize our churches and Synagogues to raise funds to finance the genocide.
11. We finance any political or religious group that is willing to take up arms against Muslims and actively support governments that are openly anti-Islam -even in their own countries, for example, Algeria, Lebanon, Turkey and Pakistan - hell with democracy, its only applicable here in the West, and that too only within a very narrow definition.
You write "They know very well that this is the
nation who ruled the world and will rule again".
I will say, there is nothing wrong with Day Dreaming. May be British, Spanish and Greeks are also day dreaming for recovering their old empires. Funny, British cannot even handle their own dispute with Irish; Greeks and Spanish are lucky to call their countries as their own. And Arabs cannot even gather together for a lunch without any fight.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-king20may20,0,6057993.story?
growing strength and power. They know very well that this is the
nation who ruled the world and will rule again with the beauty of
Islamic principles laid down in the Quran propagated by Holy
prophet Mohammad (PBUH). One tends forget that communism
has been destroyed and brought down to it's knees because it
was a wrong it was a system of oppression and suppression. But
no body can even dare to stop Islam from spreading thick and
fast because of it's beauty. Islam preaches world peace, love.
global brother-wood and definitely above all the word of Allah
for true guidance for this world and unending next world. In due
course learned critics will come under the fold of Islam when
they will realize & experience the true beauty of Islam.
MY hats off too the writer for being a good Muslim and loyal
Canadian citizen. Brother you will get your due respect and
honor from Allah and definitely from the learned people of USA,
Canada and people of the World. May Allah guide us all in
straight path.
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2007/05/israel-to-execute-palestinian-political.html
They hate our religion, Islamic ethics and values, resources, prosperity, development, technology.
They want us to live as a poor,convert and be the slaves, beg for everything,give our resources and wealth to them.
They are sucessful with their Mega plans, events, biased media, propogandas and with help of some muslims too.
This is plain and simple.
An anti Muslim right wing bigot like Pat not only calling the kettle black but having his article online at Islamicity makes me very
worried indeed!
Lest we forget while he is telling the truth the reasons are simple - hea wants to distance himself a lame duck administration.
Period!
Just wait till Hillary Clinton shows up and starts leading the polls close to November 2008 and then watch Pat spew his hatred for "liberals" and show his true colors!
Should I believe in Ron Paul? I am having serious doubts about him, too. No more campaign money from me for any of the presidential candidates, Republican or Democrat.
Looks like all politicians are hypocrites. All they want is your vote by making wild statements.
USA is NOT a free country. The two-third majority who opposed the war and the thousands of demonstrations they conducted in hundreds of city across USA has no effect because the US Government is dictated by the many Jew-infested think tanks. I doubt this (my) message won't reach the Americans if it were to be emailed to all the newspapers because they Americans have no freedom. They are dominated, cheated and disillusioned by their Jew-controlled media, Congress and Government.
So, the international community must help free America from Jewish domination. If not, forever, USA wil be the slave-dog of Israel, serving Israel's interest.
Thank you
Smart Man