The Danish Case
The Danish government's attitude toward the blasphemous caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad published by a newspaper in the country should not be dismissed lightly as it is typical of the manner in which Western governments and intellectuals treat topics related to Islam. The lethargic reaction of the Muslim governments to the European newspaper's outrageous treatment of the Prophet too deserves censure .
It was on Sept.30 last year that a popular Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 12 caricatures of the Prophet. Matters were further exacerbated by the chief editor of the newspaper who in a comment expressed his "abhorrence" at the veneration of their Prophet by Muslims .
The drawings were more than a shock to the 180,000-strong Muslim community who represent three percent of Denmark's population The Muslim diplomats in Copenhagen felt outraged. Eleven of them held a meeting and demanded an immediate apology from the newspaper.
As the chief editor refused to comply with their demand, the envoys requested a meeting with the prime minister of the country to register their protest at this insult to Islam. Anders Fogh Rasmussen refused to meet them but informed the envoys through his office that since the issue involved the freedom of expression his administration could not interfere in the matter. They were told to resort to legal action if they desired.
On learning about the affront to the Prophet, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference Dr. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu wrote to the Danish prime minister and the top officials of the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) requesting them to stop the hate campaign against Islam and take a stern stand against attempts to malign the Prophet. The gist of their response was that nothing could be done to stop the campaign, as the freedom of expression was the cornerstone of the Danish democracy. In the meantime the ambassadors of the Muslim nations in Geneva complained to the Human Rights Commission saying that the Danish newspaper was inciting racism and hatred against the Muslims. The commission agreed to look into the matter and prepare a report by the 24th of this month.
At the Islamic summit meeting held in Makkah last month, the Muslim leaders discussed the issue and expressed deep concern over the media campaigns against Islam and the Prophet. The participants emphasized the responsibility of all governments to guarantee respect for all religions without allowing anyone to make the freedom of expression a cover for insulting a religion.
After three months of silence, the EU commissioner for Justice Franco Frattini commented that publishing such cartoons was not a wise move as such acts would only inflame passions and encourage extremism in Europe.
While 22 Danish ambassadors with working experience in Arab countries criticized their government for its stand on the issue, a delegation of Danish Muslims representing 21 organizations visited Cairo and met with the Sheikh of Al-Azhar and the secretary-general of the Arab League. The foreign ministers of the Arab countries too criticized the negative attitude of the Danish government. The OIC secretary-general informed Danish authorities of the OIC decision to boycott a Danish exhibition entitled "Impressions of the Middle East" the cost of which was to be shared by Denmark and some Arab countries. He asked the Muslim countries to stick to this decision to register their protest against the European country's position in the matter.
Finally, the Danish premier's response came in his New Year message to the nation in which he said that his government condemned any expression or conduct that offended the sentiments of any community. If the Copenhagen authorities thought that this was the end of the matter they were mistaken. It is quite evident that the wound is too deep to be healed by some generalized statements issued reluctantly.
In the meantime some Muslim organizations in Denmark filed a suit against the newspaper. The public prosecutor refused to admit the case on the ground that the publication of the cartoons came under the purview of the freedom of expression, which enjoys legal protection in Denmark. The issue became more complicated with another conservative Christian daily in Norway reproducing the cartoons.
It is not surprising that some media persons behave impudently against the symbols of Islam as fanatics and hatemongers are found in every society, particularly in the West and often their intolerance of Islam rises above the voices of the intellectuals who speak with reason and fairness. What is most disturbing is the careless attitude of the Danish government, which should have taken a stand consistent with justice and public decency.
No system of law in the world claims that desecrating the symbols of Islam and the Prophet, or any other religion for that matter, is the right way to exercise one's freedom of expression. The freedom of expression is conditional on public good.
Anglo Saxon and Latin legal systems, apart from the Islamic law, give protection for the freedom of expression as long as it serves the interests of society as a whole and does not lead to inflaming passions and disrupting social harmony. The highest constitutional courts in the United States stipulate that the freedom of expression is guaranteed only as long as it carries a minimum of redeeming qualities.
Every legal system considers it a crime to abuse and malign others. Abusing is an aggression on another individual. Abusing the Prophet of Islam is a serious crime because nearly one quarter of the world's population believes that he is the Messenger of God. Dr. Ahmad Kemal Abul Majid, an expert on international law, said that even if an offending publication can't be hauled into court of law there was a moral and political obligation on the part of the government to condemn such acts in the interest of the religious and cultural diversity of a country.
It is also disturbing to note that the Muslim governments have not been forthright in expressing their displeasure at the Danish government's reluctance to condemn the affront to the sentiments of Muslims.
Are we to understand that abusing the Prophet is a less serious offense than an insult to an Arab head of state that would have triggered angry reactions accompanied by withdrawal of ambassadors and threat of severing diplomatic and economic relations. Should it not be feared that official silence over such issues in the Muslim and Arab world would play into the hands of extremists in the Muslim communities who are waiting for an opportunity to choose the path of violence .
The Danish drawings also reopen the question that is often raised whenever the topic of the relations between Islam and the West comes up: Really who hates whom?
Wikipedia, is not a reliable source of information as you already know I'm sure. Roger Garaudy as far as I'm concerned went from one failed Ideology to another, do you have better examples. In Time magazines 100 most important people of the Century, 19 out of 100 and 5 out of the top ten were Atheist. Considering the extremely low percentage of Atheists in the world, it speaks volumes! Of course there are always a few failures like Roger Garaudy!
What you want to beieve about god is upto you. I think that non-violent Muslims such as yourself should be telling the violent Muslims that it is unislamic to kill, not me!
"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition."
It is unislamic to kill non-Muslims whether they are atheists or believers in God. The only time a PERSON must be killed is when they commit a first degree murder and the evidence against them must be cristal clear. This is the job of legal experts not hostage takers. Killing a human being regardless of their creed or disbelief unjustly is a crime against humanity. Western leaders in Europe call White Supremacists, Right Wing Extremists. They should call them Wrong Wing Extremists. Danemark liberal party is heavily influenced by these terrorists and the Zionist led media in the West keeps their eyes closed but very open at attacking our Muslim extremists. Is that fair? No.
On another note Thomas Doin Phine, know that God is the most Merciful and does neither need me nor does He need you. We are the ones that need Him and need His mercy especially when we are desperate for help here on earth and the hereafter. The French Marxist/Existensialist philosopher, Jean Paul Sartre was an atheist all his life until he saw the sign that God exists and it was in his death bed. His death was so painful to the point that he started screaming : "Call a priest for me, I believe in God now" the other French philosopher, Roger Garaudy, was also an atheist & a communist for over 50 years and finally surrendered to God & became Muslim.
I wish you the best of luck Zinedine, and take Care.
WE must follow the true words quoted by some intellectuals and religious people that one should respect the others irrespective of age, religion, caste, profession whaetever thats may be.
The Western countries being developed one not developed not practising the said true quote.
To every action there is equal and opposite reaction. Hate creates hate and may be ain any other form but will be not constructive.
Any how the said incident is not the proof of decency of Danish people.
Ithink the adminstrater hates Islam but not the people
If the adminstraters has to blame What the danishes are doing
Allow me to try to cast a light on this misunderstanding. I know Thorsten, Syed Husain, gave you the impression that there would be a Muslim God vs a Christian one. Syed Husain saw this way, due to Christians substituting God for Jesus Christ,pbuh. Which in the Muslims' opinion is a blasphemy. In ME people don't speak English as their native tongue. They do not call god god for the same reasons that the French call god dieu, the Spanish dios, the Greeks theos and the Germans got. In ME people speak several semitic languages, among the most known, Arabic, Assyrian and Hebrew. God in these languages is spelled, alif-lim-ha. These 3 letters are pronounced differently as got is different from god. That is: ilah, ela, eloh, el, il, etc. Allah is a contraction of, al-ilah, meaning, The God. Thus Allah means The God, as a reference to that God. Which God? The God. The one and only. The one that created everything that is. The one that designed the blueprints of the first human prototypes. The one that chose messengers to deliver His message to the rest of mankind, among them being, Noah,Abraham,Isaac,Jakob,Moses,Elijah,John the Baptist,Jesus of Nazareth, and last but not least Muhammad bin Abdullah,peace be upon all of them.
It is wrong to claim ownership of God or The God! God is not owned by humans,my god,your god,his god! What an indecent oxymoron is this? To God belongs everything known and unknown. He owns the worlds and everything there are in them. We own nothing! Nada! Naked we came into this world and naked we depart! Where is our ownership? Therefore, my friends, God is God, The God of mankind, The God of the Universe, The God of our destiny! We cannot own God or even monopolize Him to one people or nation! As it was said:"The rain sent down by God benifits the pious and the wicked the same."
I wish we would all come to common terms. Peace!
offense,insulter,dnigrer et bless l'amour propre,la religion,les convictions et la foi.
Vivre,travailler et cohabiter ensemble dans la reconnaissance et respect mutuels,cela est possible.Alors luttons ensemble contre les racismes,les discriminatios.Combattons ensemble tous les intgrismes d'ou qu'ils viennent.Soyons fraternels,solidaires et respectueux les uns des autres.
"The problem with the west is that they really do not believe in Allah subhanotala. The God that they believe is a fiction & therefore they do not understand that why a Prophet can not be critized or be made fun of."
So your god is real, and thus your prophet cannot be critized or be made fun of and in the same sentence you say that the christian god is fictious?!? Very respectful.
Good for you that you have faith in your god, but perhaps you should educate yourself a bit on his origin...
Normally i wouldn't post this a place like here, but for you it just seems perfect:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Think about that for a while before you go dismissing other people's gods the next time.
Attributing the decision of publishing these drawings to hate, is a gross oversimplification and the matter of Islam and freedom of speech is a complex one. People in Denmark and the rest of Europe have been attacked by fundamentalists for far less than publishing these drawings, a professor specializing in Islam for just reading from the Quran at a lecture (being jewish probably didn't help him).
Having said that, I do think that at least some of the drawings were insulting and stupid. Others were no different than the hundreds of pictures and paintings that have been made over the centuries, by muslims and others, that have caused no reaction what-so-ever.
Anyway, most of us here in Denmark are quite capable of living together in spite of racial, religious, sexual and political differences.
First to Hudd, your last post I totally enjoyed reading found it well written an articulated.
To Zinedine, you caught me here, you caught me there. U really caught me eh! Funny guy, I see much hate in your comments, but I don't hate you, and I don't hate Saudi's. Too imply it to be true is a lie. I'm not racist, I have enough proof of this in my personal and professional life, to prove you so very wrong. You have no basis to make such a comment, but it comes easy for some people to call anybody who doesn't agree with them racist. I suggest you check a dictionary. As an atheist, I however do have problems with Ideologies, including all religions. So the question that has to be asked, why do I visit this site. I do that better to understand the Muslim mind. I enjoy this site, and have learned alot (ie last post of Hudd.) Learning is a long life process, and I try to have as many sources as possible. I don't defend Christianity, I'm an Atheist. However to compare No mosques in the Vatican is like saying no Churches in Mecca, not the whole of Saudi Arabia. The comparision is weak and doesn't defeat my argument.
Islam invaded Christian Europe BEFORE Christianity invaded the Muslim Middle East, check you history.
Zinedine you said "that I don't believe in God that it is only common sense that I don't believe in my Country". I think with a comment like that you are the one with NO common sense.
You didnt answer my question about loyality to country by Muslims immigrating to Canada. Sometimes when a question is not answered, you have answered it anyway. It is a fair question, asked in a proper way.
Thanks for the comment Zinedine, it was good entertainment.
Oh yes sorry, but my name is not French. It is a name I use on this site. "Doin Phine =Doing Fine".
Have a good day Zinedine and Hudd, and remember I don't hate you. I enjoy using my right of free speech, or as referred elsewhere in this site "Intellectual Ter
You seem to be the one suffering from mental illness. Anyone, who believes this world that is subject to specific laws has come about accidentally has to throw logic out of the window.
Regarding the reaction to the grotesque cartoons, you cannot understand when you are not part of the persecution that is occuring all over the world against Muslims. When someone feels vulnerable and is attacked it takes one more incident to take them over the edge. As it happened all over the world with the protests. This is not one incident, but a giant snow ball that has been careening down the hill. People are fed up being dehumanized and demonized.
In Defense of Hudd on sovereignty and other issues.
Now, you need to draw a line between freedom of speech and defamation of character and blasphemy. You are free to express your views about all religions but you can be thrown in jail if you defame a person's character even if it happens to be Joe Blow. By your own laws and standards, the caricaturist and his editors should be thrown in jail for defaming our beloved Messenger Muhammad (pbuh). I dare you and the likes of the Caricatures editors deny the holocaust happened and I dare the hypocrites that claim that they believe in the limitless freedom of speech to do so because I know they don't may be they do believe in the freedom of speech to their liking.... I dare all of your kind including the European Union countries to not criticise the Holocaust deniers and support that kind of freedom of speech that hurts the feelings of millions of Jews worldwide. I got you yet again Doin!Man, you are a group of hypocrites and this is reminiscent of your unending crusades. It was not enough for your ancestors and their present day predecessors to invade our lands, kill our people and exploit and control our resources they added insult to injury by attacking our values and insulting our sacred symbols and provide total support to the bigots to continue their orientalist campaign but I can assure you that you are doomed to fail by your own undoing because Islam is here to stay and eventually become prosperous and powerful whether you love it or hate it.
Two thumbs up to Hudd, Meriam and Thane!!!
Band of brothers Muslim style!
Bande de freres un style musulman!
First and foremost, Hudd, yourself and I are all Canadian citizens from different backgrounds and origins but in the end of the day our cultures and individuality come first. My name is not French like yours but I speak fluent French. Hudd is way too educate for you to argue with...Yes Doin, Saudi Arabia applies the Sharia law (manifest in all four schools of Fiqh) with an emphasis on the Hanbali school and his follower Muhammad Ibn Abdel Wahab. The rest of the Arab and Muslim countries- except for Pakistan to a higher degree and Iran as well- limit the Sharia law to and only to Mudawanat Alahwal Ashakhsia (Family and personal law). That's it!!! the rest are either what we call Al'urf (Arabic), Roman laws, British laws or Napoleonic laws. If you were smart enough, you would actually compare Saudi Arabia to the Vatican not to any other country but you are not...
You should know by now that just like Christians cannot build a church in Saudi Arabia, Muslims cannot build a mosque in the Vatican. In other words, Saudi Arabia and the Vatican are not secular period but I caught you again Doin Phine I don't see you criticise the Vatican for not being tolerant towards others..you hate the Saudis don't you? That's a form of racism!
Re: your comment put in order to challenge Hudd, you stated: "I'm led to believe that in Islam you have to put loyalty to Islam over to the country that you live in. Is that true or is that just a falsehood?" It's not even worth an answer because if you too is an immigrant in a sense (because we are all guests of the natives of Canada (the Inuits) and your immigrants parents put their culture ahead of the original natives of this country. Will you hate your ancestors for being intolerant and racistst just the way you hate us? Aha , caught you again. At least my ancestors (your so called blood thirsty Arabs) came here invited and do not have the native blood in their hands...do you get it. My other poin
Not exactly my friend, you pay little attention to what I say. I said that every Saudi citizen has the right to exercise his faith and culture. It just happens that all Saudi citizens are Muslims and Arabians. Saudia doesn't have an immigration program and doesn't give citizenship to anyone including Muslim Arab ethnicities other than Saudi. Even if one was born there. Very much like Israel wouldn't give citizenship to anybody immigrating there unless the person was a documented and proven Jew or in rare cases if the person converted. How would Saudia and a multitude of other ME countries interdict certain ethnicities and cultures when they have one ethnicity and one culture? I don't know of any other country bu8t Turkey who forbade their own citizens of Kurdish descent to speak their language and exercise their culture. And Turkey is considered a democracy by USA. Strange isn't it?
Gee, indeed you are confused. Nobody claimed that Saudia or any other country from ME would be a better place to live in than Canada or any other western country, mabe with the exception of infamous Denmark. Canada comes out looking great, but that might change, it depents of what Stevey Harper is gonna mess up in Trudeau's heritage.
Doin, the problem is not the shariah, the problem is with those that implement it according to their own judgement. The USA constitution would look very different if those applying it would be crooks and mobste
The innate value contained in what our freedom of speech allows us is sullied when we use it as an excuse to express things clearly designed to provoke hatred in our current political climate. I have a good example. My nephews friend would always jokingly call him a terrorist, it was not intended to hurt and somewhere within the boundaries of their friendship , it was a sarcastic comment on how if you happen to be a Muslim and an Arab...of course you must be a terrorist. After 9-11 he said to my Nephew...I guess I can't call you that anymore. What was sarcastic humour has become a grim and sad statement about our world. Its not even remotely funny anymore.
The message contained in these comics strips unfortunately represent an attitude towards Islam that is designed to provoke hatred towards everything the religion and its followers hold sacred. The Caliph Omar upon entering Jerusalem...was asked to pray in one of Christianity's oldest Churches.He refused to pray inside because he feared such actions would be grounds for later generations assuming that this Church should become a Mosque...we must be mindful not to incite each other...for there are those whose predisposition for confrontation and hatred will use any example to justify the means they take to commit wrongful acts.
Two quotes for you to ponder.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.
Bertrand Russell, British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970)
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)
Then in your latest post you ask me if I want to do like "former Nazi Germany and interdict certain ethnicities of exercising their culture." But isn't that what Saudi Arabia and a multitude of other Middle East countries already doing.
Gee now I'm confused. One way or the other Canada comes out of this looking good compared to Saudi Arabia (or any other Middle East Country).
But Hudd I guess you would agree with me, because you live in a free Canada, and not under the Sharia law of many Middle East countries.
The straight forward answer to your question "Are you suggesting ghettoes and concentration camps?" The answer is no. I would like to ask you sincerely Hudd, if you thought I would answer yes?
No, brother, no freaking way! When you go to Rome do as Romans do doesn't mean that you need to become a Roman! You couldn't if you knew just a bit of ancient history. The Roman Empire didn't have an immigration program. To be Roman wasn't a matter of birth. It was a matter of consensus. If you were a Roman and failed to register you lost your Romanhood. It was quite very difficult next to impossible for an alien to become a Roman citizen. However, anybody that traveled to Rome needed to fully respect the Roman laws like anybody else, master or slave or else end in the arena as a gladiator! How limited is your power of discernment?
The West is neither Christian nor Jewish. I know people on crack that make more sense than you! The West is secular. But guess what, Islam is a westernly recognized religion in all western countries. Check the Canadian chartewr of rights and you will find at the Canadian religions not only Islam but also Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Native non-Christian believes. What happened with your belief in freedom of speech and expression? Are you suggesting that the West should take the stand of former Nazi Germany and interdict certain ethnicities of exercising their culture. Are you suggesting ghettoes and concentration camps?
All I suggested and still suggest for any immigrant is if you chose any western country for your home, be a citizen of that country. Acquire the knowledge of the official language to your best ability, participate in the countries culture as long as is not against your own culture. You could suggest to an immigrant that he/she would need to become a homosexual in order to get citizenship. Respect the laws. This doesn't mean that you drop your own culture. Rather you add to your culture from the host culture that which is not offensive to yours. Like the Jews did. Now don't tell me that 33 million Canadians celebrate Hanuka when only 1 million is Jewish. You dig?
Its good that this incident brings us to a civil discussion.
As a Muslim ...would I rise up when Europeans and seculars makes fun of Jesus? Moses? The systematic persecution and hatred of Jews few decades ago in Europe?
Why is there no freedom of press in the Middle East? I prefer living in the west, where there is such things. But in this case, this not freedom of press, but the freedom to hate!
Continue the discussion maybe one day Arab/Muslim countries will have freedom of press. And I pray for the European secularist to learn about Islam, maybe I am not doing enough Dawa to my neighbors.
Thank you for helping me prove my point about the Crusades. You said that Crusades started in April 1097. What about if I told you the Muslim crusades (Jihad) started much before that. Read your history, If it wasnt for The great European warrior Charles "The Hammer" Martel, maybe Europe would already be Muslim. In the battle of Tours in 732 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel) Martel stopped the Muslim advance only 200 Miles (or maybe km's) from Paris!!!
If you follow simple logic, it has to be started by muslims. After all, Mohamed, the warrior started it all, as Islam displaced other religions as Islam advanced.
As Westerners we should not be apologetic about the crusades, we have to understand that the World was, and still is a cruel place. If civilizations don't fight for what they believe in, they cease to exist. History is filled with such cases. I believe Western civilization is worth defending!
Ps. Thane if you were honest in your commentary I think you should have mentioned that the Muslims and Christians soldiers were equally violent in their ways. As I said before the world was a cruel place back then.
Saladin the Great Muslim Warrior afte his victory at Jerusalem (his home turf), wanted to invade Europe. Nothing much happened with that.
Oh yes, Mr. Thane, I do work for the C(ommittee)(of) I(ndependant) A(gnostics), and I'm not the member of any Church especially Evangelical. ;-). Oh yes I'm not American, however I'm not an american hater either.
Only really disturbing part of your first comment was that awe&salute thing. That got my hand creep closer to the red button, you know what I mean? But you apologized and I accept it. Begging pardon is sometimes vital thing between people. I know, I got to do it every now then myself. I quess on that day when we can't ask forgiveness or can't forgive we've lost essential part of our humanity. Be cool. Peace.
I agree with your comment. "When you are at Rome do as Romans do" 100%.
However if immigrants to the West follow your comment, they would have to drop Islam and follow Christianity, Judaism, or become Atheist (my preferred choice ;-)).
Forget the constitutional rights that immigrants in the Canada, USA, and Europe have, if immigrants did follow your suggestion, they would truly prove that they are serious about their wish to become citizens of their new country.
I'm led to believe that in Islam you have to put loyalty to Islam over to the country that you live in. Is that true or is that just a falsehood?
The constitutional rights that you talk about just prove that in the West your rights are protected much more then in ANY middle east country.
In the West, anti-semitic speech is not tolerated, many who have written offensive speech against Jews have either they lost their jobs or were prosecuted in court. I remember a specific case that happened in Canada where a journalist wrote that the holocaust was a lie. Not only was he fired, but he faced charges. I have heard of other similar cases. So it seems hateful speech against this particular group is not tolerated, but against Muslims it is rigourosly defended under the guise of free speech.
Those cartoons were the most recent of a series of hateful propaganda campaign that has been growing for several decades in the West.
It is rare to find any article or book written in the West by non-Muslims that has been fair to Islam. This continuous attacks on the Islamic faith and its followers can only lead to the next holocaust, and this time the candidates seem to be the Muslims. We have already witnessed Western genocide in Bosnia.
Side, breathe deeply and allow your thinking process to reach the realm of logics, void of racism or the whiteman's mentality of always being right. Saudi Arabia is a sovereig country, much like Canada is sovereign.(Both depend on USA for trade and economy, did I mention independent?). As Canada has its inviolable laws, so but differently, Saudi Arabia. A lesson in politics, not all countries subscribed themselves to the American Constitution. Even countries belonging to the so called Judeo-Christian variety have very different laws. Let's see what is a major crime in Canada. Child pornography, the trafficking of recreational drugs such as cocaine, heroin, LSD,etc.,incest, pedophilia,necrophilia,forced prostitution,etc. You can understand that, don't you? Let's see Saudi Arabia. Aside of the above in Saudia also the following constitute a crime: trafficking alcohol, pork products and illegal ideological material. It just happens that in Saudia Christian ideology is illegal matter. Can you blame them? Is their country. Communist ideology was a criminal activity in USA during the cold war. Do you think Cuba saw it with good eyes? But hey, USA was and is a sovereign country. This means that both USA and Saudia are making their own laws. Colonies, like Canada before, don't make their own laws, savvy? This Canadian in Saudia was arrested because the authorities found a link between him and others that botched a bombing attempt in Riadh. Imagine what USA would do to a Saudi suspected of a bombing in US? Reader's Digest published an article on him with his statements how he and other Christians in Saudia smuggled booze and bacon and how they met underground to merry make! These weren't Christians! These were vile criminals!
Right on Thomas, you said it, the world would be a better place without the Judeo-Christian assassins! I wonder if the Judeo-Christian world would be rid of the incommensurable killers this civilization produced, how many would be left?
Your knowledge of Islamic history is as distorted ... Prophet Mohammad,pbuh,(Use always his title when you mention his name, ..) was no warrior. Your reading of Hadith is in itself a blasphemy. There are events and situations in hadiths that you could not possibly fathom since you are on the wrong side of the fence. Prophet Muhammad,pbuh, was a gentle and compationate person. He was not a fool, though, he did not open up to his enamies. Islam would have not been reborn then but maybe for ever lost. That wasn't in the plan of God. Obviously, since today is the second largest religion in the world and tomorrow will be the first, God willing. Nobody claimed that Prophet Muhammad,pbuh, was a wimp and a coward and rather allowed his people to be slaughtered and his women raped by Judeo-Christian drunkard assassins than to opose them with necessary force.
Now, Thomas, ..! You said:"Crusades only happened after Europe was invaded by Muslims from the Middle East." Where are you living because obviously you hide your place of residence out of obvious reasons. Tell me is Israel! Crusaders' motto was "to rid the Holy Land of the Seracens", it wasn't to defend the homeland! You stink!
I knew that comment would get under your collar and I just had to put it in. The comical part is your response. I could respond to all your points specifically, but there is not enough space to do so in the comments section of this site. I will respond to just one. Concerning Hitler, he was never my buddy, just wanted to clear that up, just in case the gullible people out there start believing all the rubbish that you write.
Reading your comments you would lead us to believe that it is a Judeo-Christian phenomenon and that if Jews and Christians didn't exist the world would be a peaceful place. I think you need a wake up call. After all Mohamed was a warrior, and he used force to get his way. This is clear when you read Haddith. It is also clear when you look at world events presently.
I could make a list of violence, and genocide and committed by others then Jews and Christians and the list would be very very long.
Also your examples often lack context.
Your argument is like blaming Western Europe for the Crusades. However when researched, it is easy to see that the Crusades only happened after Europe was invaded by Muslims from the Middle East.
I would like to thank all for taking the time to read my comments.
Incidentally it seems the U.S. Military has been evicted from Uzbekistan following U.S. criticism of Karimov for his massacre of non-violent Islamist protestors in Andijan last year. Of course whenever Americans sacrifice blood and treasure to assist Islamists, Islamists seem quick to insist it was an imperial misadventure on the part of America. It doesn't matter anyway because serving in a good cause is the best of rewards, at least in this world.
Oh by the way it seems Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) tolerated quite a bit for the sake of his community. But by all means carry on.
Sorry but I hear that line of argumentation all the time. So grow up. If people don't accept your point of view, that doesn't equal lack of free speach. Gee you are a funny guy! Keep saying what you think, even though I might not agree with you, you do have the right to say what you want. Remember however Free speech doesn't equal everybody agreeing with you. ;-).
About David Irving, well he has the right to his viewpoint I guess. WhatI have come to believe happened is taken from reading mainstream history books along with a friend I knew whose father, was a soldier in Nazi Germany.
I'm not Jewish, but the Jews have been, and are an integral part of the West, and they should be proud of their accomplishments. Its called a Judeo-Christian society for a reason.
Look a little harder, I'm sure you could find alot of cartoons about Jews. Get real.
If I didn't consider Islam as infallible then how could I be Muslim? You tell me! Therefore if Islam is infallible then all other religions are either corrupt or adulterated. Or I'll be a Cristian. You don't respect Muslims because of their perfect religion. You respect them for their actions,deeds or thinking manner. Religious values do not make the individual. The individual dips as much from the available knowledge as he feels comfortable with. In other words, I respect people not for what religion they follow. There are lots of my Muslim brothers that have no respect with me. I respect a person for his inner human character. If that person happens to be a Muslim his the best of us Muslims. If he's a non-Muslim then we stand in awe and salute and wish he was one.
Wrong, Sirius, I can't set you in either lower or higher class than I am. God will decide on that terrible day who goes where. I am struggling like you, bro, and the final outcome of our earthen journey might suprise me as much as you. Don't think that I despise you because I don't. I just say my piece out loud.
Muslims must be the protectors of all religions in their lands. Those that destroy places of worship are in discord with the teachings of the prophet,pbuh.
I disrespect those muslims who are more than willing to play down that corruption card at almost every possible turn against us. And they disrespect me. Unfortunately there are many muslims of that kind. On the other hand there are those who are wise enough to hold that card long enough to create an athmosphere of trust and equity. Athmosphere, (this is the best part), which is very likely to hold even after the card is played down. I respect them. I never have detected, for example, Ahmed Ashger to use indescreed language. And I respect muslims like those who in Indonesia protected churches from some other muslims who aimed to attack them lately. God bless all these people.
About Bosnia etc.? There are long lists of atrocities&bad deeds done by both sides available on internet. They tell about evil actions of bad people. Don' put all christians to the same boat with Miiiister Bush and likes of his kind. I really can't see them as my brothers in faith.
About the humiliating ways christians are treated in some muslim countries? There is a stedy stream of christians out of M.E.. This is due to increased pressure they feel on them. They live in unease and many even in athmosphere of fear. Last time I heard about this was before last christmas. Christians from Bethlehem told about their nowadays life in a finnish magazine. And I've heard similar stories from assyrian christians from Iraq. Hudd, living under fear is humiliating.
You said: "...rather stand in awe and salute!" Well, maybe these people don't want to stand in awe,and thatfore year
First you said: "I BELIEVE the Holocaust were greatly exaggerrated no matter what history tell me."
Then you said: "Why will "hate crime" charges be filed against me for expressing my personal beliefs in this case?"
I guess you better watch out now that you have expressed your personal beliefs in this case. ;-).
PS. I don't think you have to worry about expressing your personal opinion. Nobody will take you seriously anyway!
There are people who discuss the holocust all the time, debating the facts , so I don't see the point of Mr. Muslim Defender. I can't speak for the countries of Germany and Denmark and their anti-hate laws, but usually they are applicable only when violence is espoused! Which I totally agree with! I even remember seeing documentaries discussing the holocust and how many people really died, and nothing happenned to the producers. Free speach is alive and well in the West!
To resume my point:
1) In the West there has been a HISTORY of satirical cartoons about religious figures, and they are permitted!
2)No Ideology or religion should have priority over free speach.
PS. To say that the Holocust of WWII, and the extermination of millions of Jews, well was exagerated is a total farce. In university I use to have a friend who was German, and he told me how his Father told him what it was like in Nazi Germnay in WWII. It happened, Get Real! If you dont accept such a clear fact of Modern History, there is no hope.
That being said I have no problems having other days mourning other peoples who have died during Genocides. Unfortunately, there have been too many terrible events in the history of Mankind.
All prophets from Prophet Adam (PBUH) through Prophet Mohammed (S) are sinless and above criticism. You can not mock them. You can only speak of them with utmost respect. That is why muslims can not tolerate the mockery of any Prophets. Muslims can not just let go such an insult on Prophet Muhammed (S) without protest & condemnation.
Almighty Allah chose them & sent them among us with only message of "La ilaha illalla" - There is no God but Allah & to guide people to the rightous path. Prophets before Muhammed (S) were all Prophets of Islam, they preached nothing other Islam. Through Prophet Muhammed (S) Allah Subhanotala gave His religion the final shape & He sent Qur'an as a means of final guidance. We live in this world not for this world only, but for hereafter. By making mockery of Prophets, one will not be able to make it to the paradise.
The problem with some of the muslims are that they go outright in rediculing the non-muslims (or unbelievers) and condeming their life style. In my personal opinion, I think before a muslim goes ballistic in critizing a non-muslims' life style, they should understand that the non-muslims are not properly informed about Islam & they live in ingnorance & have to no clue about what a true religion is. I would suggest that inform them about Islam, reason with them why their life style is not a rightous one. Let them take their own time. Remember, that some of the non-muslims or unbelivers we are critizing today are also reverting to Islam and are becoming far better practicing muslims than us who have remained muslims since are childhood.
As far as the Danish & Norwegian people who supported the insult on Prophet Muhammed (S) are the ultimate lo
Looking at the comments, it is evident that there is a clash of cultures between the Judeo-Christian West and the whole Muslim world. Free speech is a fundamental part of Western civilization, and is obviously unacceptable by followers of Islam by the messages that I see posted at Iviews!!
Stating that these now infamous cartoons are hateful of Islam, is simply a wrong conclusion.
A quote from the famous American President Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
I put this quote to show that comments criticising religion have been free for over 200 years in the United States. I think Muslims should try to understand the cultural differences, instead of putting the simplistic and wrong label Muslim Haters on the west.
There are anti-Christian and anti-Jewish religious articles and cartoons in the major periodicals of most Muslim-majority countries just about every month. On this very site, one can follow a link to purchase that infamous anti-Semitic work: The Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion.
Most of all, I don't understand how adherents of such a great, noble, enlightened and sophisticated religion like Islam can't take this incident in their stride. By all means, protest, disagree and demand a hate crime investigation...but cutting diplomatic ties, calling for boycotts and even questioning the concept of free speech itself? Don't you think you're overreacting just a little bit?
It is not "freedom of expression," to express oneself via maligning the most holy, revered, relgious figure. I don't care who the figure is, for it is deeply offensive and sows the seeds of anger and discord through society.
If Mr. Thomas claims satirical cartoons under the guise of freedom of expression is ok mocking any personalities (be it political, religious, groups), then tell me why will I be sent to jail in Germany or Denmark or even the US for "satirizing" the existence of the Holocaust? Surely they fall under my "freedom of beliefs and expression." I BELIEVE the Holocaust were greatly exaggerrated no matter what history tell me.
Why will "hate crime" charges be filed against me for expressing my personal beliefs in this case?
I'll tell you why, because there are limits and boundaries for what is acceptable in free speech. When those boundaries are breached, you no longer are free to say whatever but are held accountable for your words.
No sensible Muslim or Muslim who claims to be a sincere, practicing Muslim would be "ok" when their Prophet is maligned, PERIOD!
If the belief of Islam is to believe in Allah AND Prophet MUHAMMAD, and as one hadith goes, "None of you truly believe unless you love me (the Prophet) more than his OWN self," then how could we sit idly when our Prophet is attacked?
He is more beloved to me than my own mother, father, sister, MY COUNTRY, and my OWN SELF. And I for one have condemned the cartoons, written to its editors, and will not tolerate LITERALLY this act of war (as was the case understanding by the classical Islamic jurists).
I've known a handful of Muslims, a few quite well. I got on terrifically with those I knew well. One was from Senegal and seems to me to be a pretty lax Muslim. One was from Pakistan and was very devout and very confusing. One was from Afganistan, although he was born in the US. During the Taliban rule his father funded construction of a mosque in a poor area. This fellow (my friend) was very devout and an outstanding guy and I had the utmost respect for him. I think Muslims are only worse than any other people when their religios beliefs cause them to despise the "other." Islam seems geared for it, and when combined with the difficulties faced by immigrants it can cause big problems.
Muslims in the USA and Canada fit in much better because they tend to come from more educated backgrounds. I suspect your friends are quite educated, or are at least surrounded by many educated people such as yourself. They, and yourself, are probably not representative of the typical Muslim in Denmark. My wife is Indian and I often bridle when she criticizes Americans, saying "I'm not like that, X,Y,and Z are not like that." But when I'm honest I recognize I may not be a typical American.
My post contained hyperbole, but I have seen significant evidence both in comment areas like this and in various news sources that some Muslims living in the western world view western norms with deep contempt. A few years ago women in Denmark felt compelled to march through Muslim neighborhoods to say that they are not sluts because of the way they dress. Also see http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/denmark.htm. I don't subscribe to D. Pipes's worldview, but the statistics he cites on rapes in Denmark are compelling. By mocking Muhommed the Danes are responding to numerous acts of cultural aggression with an act of cultural agression. Its a vicious circle, but their reaction to some cartoons suggests the Muslims are the only party too inflexible to break out of
To get back to your complaint. Muslims don't even hide their contempt at certain Christians? Are they not worthy of contempt though? They can cry their eyes out for their minimal lasses and rejoice when millions of Muslims are killed! Those have my contempt as well. There are Christians that talk out loud against the atrocities done by US and Israel against Muslims and denounce that the war on terror is in fact a war on Islam. Those Christians are my brothers and have my deepest respect. Cross worshippers? Once in Greece a zealot Christian cursed prophet Muhammad,pbuh, because he made me Muslim. I was a young man then, I cursed back at him the Cross. He jumped at my throat.Later at the Police station the officer told me,"With a Christian, curse his mother, his God, his prophet, but don't touch the Holy Cross! I feel myself like breaking your bones, you are lucky you are a Western tourist!"
Well, maybe you just should speak for yourself.
The more I've spent time on different muslim websites, the more distant has that what you said seems to me. By the very beginning islam determines christianity to be some kind of twisted, corrupted etc. religion. Not the best possible basis for respect, don't you think? Many, a lot of muslims don't even try to cover their contempt against us. Even here, at IslamOnline one can see us called for example "cross worshippers".
And that is mild stuff. I don't this time go talking about the humiliating way christians are treated in many muslim countries. Respect? That's the way things of course should be, don't we all agree? It just is a long way from talking to acting that way.
About this main matter. It sure wasn't wise thing to publish such things. On the other hand, I agree with some points expressed by, say, Paagle.
Pataz even so, considering that the Muslims in Denmark insulted the Danes with comments like, you are infidel and your women are whores. Repost in the same manner. Muslims didn't attack Jesus,pbuh,or slander him in any way, did they? Therefore, again I reiterate, leave that which is Godly to God. Make fun of Muslims themselves if they deserve it or if you find their culture funny, but do not insult the whole Islamic world by ridiculing any of the prophets including Jesus, pbuh.
Paagle what on earth are you trying to say? I am a Muslim. Can you imagine something like that going between us? Did you ever talk physically to a Muslim? All what you did was to present your fears. Yeah you suffer of Islamophobia. Muslims know that they didn't emmigrate to a Muslim country, duh! You think they have your way of judgement? Muslim immigrants are usually refugees fleeing oppression in their so called "Muslim" countries. As a noted friend of mine once told me:"Here in Canada I can be the Muslim I always wanted to be, which makes me wonder, was Egypt really a Muslim country? Is Canada as a secular democracy more Islamic than Muslim Egypt?" This is what I usually hear from Muslim immigrants here in Canada. That they are better Muslims and can better implement their Islamic values than in their so called Muslim countries which are corrupt to the bone and are as anti-Islamic as either the French or the Danish governments.
By God,I'm greatful to live in a place like Canada! What happened in France,Denmark and Australia to the Muslims is unconceivable in the Great North!Unless with the idiots in French-like Quebec!
Why do the islamic authorities do not publish articles abouth the fact that aour womwn are not prostitutes and we men are not adulteres as mosy muslims have the conception that we are. Why don't u tell your friends that we are not as corrupr as they think
Copruption, intolerance and bad people exist in all races and religions
Now allow me to tell u the western world is christian and will be cristian till th end of the Times sma ethe Muslims world
We have to search for things in comon not for Differences, but that takes 2 not only one.
See what happen In australia are u going to blame us too
Pls I'm not against Islam but against bad muslims or cristians
Muslim: "You people are utterly depraved. You drink, your women dress like (and therefore are) prostitues and worst of all you are unbelievers"
Dane: "I get the unbelievers part, but how do you determine that we are depraved?"
Muslim: "It is clear from the words of our prophet and the accounts of his deeds"
Dane: "Well, your prophet seems like a misogynistic war-mongering fraud."
Muslim: "What!?! You dare to insult the prophet! Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!.... What? We wouldn't win a Jihad in Denmark? Ok, put that off for now. Sanctions! Apology! Sanctions! Apology!"
Dain: "Sanctions against the country you claim to be a part of? Apology for responding to your slanders on our culture by attacking the premis that Mohommed was a prophet of God? Ok, so maybe we weren't nice about it. Your Friday sermons aren't exactly nice about us either. Did anybody tell you before you came that this isn't a Muslim country?"
Muslim: "All countries will one day be Muslim countries. We will wait here and live off social welfare until then. We will also import our wives from Muslim countries and have lots and lots of babies. Some day this will be a Muslim country. This will be, of course, a great mercy to you."
While other immigrant groups to Europe have had some difficulties, Muslims have been by far the most problematic. I think this is in part due to the religiously derived disdain with which they view the native culture. It makes it difficult for them to establish positive relations with the established community, and it causes the natives to feel insulted and sometimes even threatened. It is understandable that some Danes have responded to these grave insults by slandering Muhommed.
Finally, this is an issue amongst Danes. Other countries should keep their noses out.
The newspaper knew this information but still went ahead with the cartoon, hence the anger by Muslims, because that is exactly what the cartoonist and the newspaper had in mind.
I am going to make an analogy, please do not be offended, Just because I curse my mother, does that give me the right to curse your mother. And if I did that you might be offended and might even punch me to teach me lesson.
In short FREEDOM OF SPEECH is good and dandy if it does not do more damage then it is worth. As is clear from the article and the US, UK and international Law, they all practice conditional FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
You take a step to teach others how to respect your respective once.
Whatever the Muslim community tries doing to remedy the situation, if it somehow makes the situation worse for Danish reverts then in my view the community could just as well have saved some antagonistic cartoonist the trouble of disparaging Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihi wassalam. My guess is that, for all the good an incorrect course of action would end up doing for Danish reverts, a Muslim himself could just as well have drawn the offending cartoons. Astaghfirullah!
It seems to me that a wall of resentment is exactly the sort of thing such antagonists might be hoping the Muslim community itself ends up building throughout Denmark. Defending the honor of the prophets certainly seems to have a way of making a person feel distinctly more like a Muslim. But then again what sorts of things have the Muslims been told about patience? Alhamdulillah!
People casually redicule the Prophets and disrespect them for fun.
Here in west Christians luv Jews, who do not believe in miralce birth of Jesus(PBUH).
Which is the highest dis-respect to Marium (Mary) and Jesus (PeaceBeUponHim).
Here Christians have become over smart as all of this comes under Freedom of Speech.
Thats why a bediun even in far away remort desert passionately trys to stop one to go, visit or even see the place called West.
fame do not even consider feelings of billions
of people religious beliefs and feelings. But at the same time i feel more sorry at the current state of our governments in muslim countries who are not wise enough to protest to Danish government. My belief and love for our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will not become ounce else or ounce more no matter what these people say. the Jazaka Allah Khair.
I have not seen any reasonable or even unreasonable muslim bashing Christ. Obviously christ has a lot more respect in Islam and base of Islamic faith to believe in and respect all prophets. So learn something from muslims as least. It is called "Respect".
I know this word (respect) will cause pain for a lot of hate distributers but my best wishes it will help them someday.