Category: Americas, World Affairs Topics: Occupation Views: 2278
2278
What is driving Bush's Middle East Policy
 |
To understand what is happening in the Middle East, you must first understand what is happening in Texas. To understand what is happening there, you should read the resolutions passed at the state's Republican party conventions last month. Take a look, for example, at the decisions made in Harris County, which covers much of Houston.
The delegates began by nodding through a few uncontroversial matters: homosexuality is contrary to the truths ordained by God; "any mechanism to process, license, record, register or monitor the ownership of guns" should be repealed; income tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax and corporation tax should be abolished; and immigrants should be deterred by electric fences. Thus fortified, they turned to the real issue: the affairs of a small state 7,000 miles away. It was then, according to a participant, that the "screaming and near fist fights" began.
I don't know what the original motion said, but apparently it was "watered down significantly" as a result of the shouting match. The motion they adopted stated that Israel has an undivided claim to Jerusalem and the West Bank, that Arab states should be "pressured" to absorb refugees from Palestine, and that Israel should do whatever it wishes in seeking to eliminate terrorism. Good to see that the extremists didn't prevail then.
But why should all this be of such pressing interest to the people of a state which is seldom celebrated for its fascination with foreign affairs? The explanation is slowly becoming familiar to us, but we still have some difficulty in taking it seriously.
In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth.
What makes the story so appealing to Christian fundamentalists is that before the big battle begins, all "true believers" (i.e. those who believe what they believe) will be lifted out of their clothes and wafted up to heaven during an event called the Rapture. Not only do the worthy get to sit at the right hand of God, but they will be able to watch, from the best seats, their political and religious opponents being devoured by boils, sores, locusts and frogs, during the seven years of Tribulation which follow.
The true believers are now seeking to bring all this about. This means staging confrontations at the old temple site (in 2000, three US Christians were deported for trying to blow up the mosques there), sponsoring Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, demanding ever more US support for Israel, and seeking to provoke a final battle with the Muslim world/Axis of Evil/United Nations/ European Union/France or whoever the legions of the antichrist turn out to be.
The believers are convinced that they will soon be rewarded for their efforts. The antichrist is apparently walking among us, in the guise of Kofi Annan, Javier Solana, Yasser Arafat or, more plausibly, Silvio Berlusconi. The Wal-Mart corporation is also a candidate (in my view a very good one), because it wants to radio-tag its stock, thereby exposing humankind to the Mark of the Beast.
By clicking on www.raptureready.com, you can discover how close you might be to flying out of your pajamas. The infidels among us should take note that the Rapture Index currently stands at 144, just one point below the critical threshold, beyond which the sky will be filled with floating nudists. Beast Government, Wild Weather and Israel are all trading at the maximum five points (the EU is debating its constitution, there was a freak hurricane in the south Atlantic, Hamas has sworn to avenge the killing of its leaders), but the second coming is currently being delayed by an unfortunate decline in drug abuse among teenagers and a weak showing by the antichrist (both of which score only two).
We can laugh at these people, but we should not dismiss them. That their beliefs are bonkers does not mean they are marginal. American pollsters believe that 15-18% of US voters belong to churches or movements which subscribe to these teachings. A survey in 1999 suggested that this figure included 33% of Republicans. The best-selling contemporary books in the US are the 12 volumes of the Left Behind series, which provide what is usually described as a "fictionalized" account of the Rapture (this, apparently, distinguishes it from the other one), with plenty of dripping details about what will happen to the rest of us. The people who believe all this don't believe it just a little; for them it is a matter of life eternal and death.
And among them are some of the most powerful men in America. John Ashcroft, the attorney general, is a true believer, so are several prominent senators and the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. Mr DeLay (who is also the co-author of the marvelously named DeLay-Doolittle Amendment, postponing campaign finance reforms) traveled to Israel last year to tell the Knesset that "there is no middle ground, no moderate position worth taking".
So here we have a major political constituency - representing much of the current president's core vote - in the most powerful nation on Earth, which is actively seeking to provoke a new world war. Its members see the invasion of Iraq as a warm-up act, as Revelation (9:14-15) maintains that four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates" will be released "to slay the third part of men". They batter down the doors of the White House as soon as its support for Israel wavers: when Bush asked Ariel Sharon to pull his tanks out of Jenin in 2002, he received 100,000 angry emails from Christian fundamentalists, and never mentioned the matter again.
The electoral calculation, crazy as it appears, works like this. Governments stand or fall on domestic issues. For 85% of the US electorate, the Middle East is a foreign issue, and therefore of secondary interest when they enter the polling booth. For 15% of the electorate, the Middle East is not just a domestic matter, it's a personal one: if the president fails to start a conflagration there, his core voters don't get to sit at the right hand of God. Bush, in other words, stands to lose fewer votes by encouraging Israeli aggression than he stands to lose by restraining it. He would be mad to listen to these people. He would also be mad not to.
George Monbiot's book 'The Age of Consent: a Manifesto for a New World Order' is now published in paperback
Source: Guardian
Related Suggestions
Older Comments:
SEVAL FROM ENGLAN said:
Peace everyone,
I think that the internet is a great forum on which we can have a global discussion. What is evident for the thinkers and critical minds is that the rhetoric and the action of the powerful world leaders do not match. Underneath the surface something sinister must lay if indeed the leaders believe it needs to be hidden. Whether it is self interest in economic form, strategic reasons or really an extremist religious fundamentalism it is unacceptable besause it does not recognise the soveriegnty of the state and basic rights of the people in question. Therefore as citizens and peoples of any country USA, UK OR CANADA, we are obliged to speak against the tyrannies commited by these individuals. I am aware that in the USA the election campaigns require alot of money. However if respected trustworthy individuals who has established themselves within their communities by their WORDS AND ACTIONs they could channel this into political power. Same goes for all countaries. We cannot simply have discussions. Surely having a strong arguement matters but we need to act. I think that primarily means to communicate the inconsistencies of rhetoric and action to the masses in a moderate tone. We do have power. The vote is political power. The rights granted in the law is power. Money and finance is power. Employ it to meet humane ends.
As for the return of Jesus not being mentioned in the Qur'an people are looking at the wrong verses. The Qur'an repeatedly says that all that ever has lived shall taste death. According to the Qur'anic teaching Jesus did not experience death and was instead taken to presence of ALLAH swt. My knowledge is solid that he did not die but the my knowledge with regard to the rest has not crystalised. However the expectation of his return is consistent with these teachings. It does not discuss a new birth but a RETURN to earth, a reign for forty years, uniting the 3 faiths. And then he shall die a natural death,meaning to taste death
I think that the internet is a great forum on which we can have a global discussion. What is evident for the thinkers and critical minds is that the rhetoric and the action of the powerful world leaders do not match. Underneath the surface something sinister must lay if indeed the leaders believe it needs to be hidden. Whether it is self interest in economic form, strategic reasons or really an extremist religious fundamentalism it is unacceptable besause it does not recognise the soveriegnty of the state and basic rights of the people in question. Therefore as citizens and peoples of any country USA, UK OR CANADA, we are obliged to speak against the tyrannies commited by these individuals. I am aware that in the USA the election campaigns require alot of money. However if respected trustworthy individuals who has established themselves within their communities by their WORDS AND ACTIONs they could channel this into political power. Same goes for all countaries. We cannot simply have discussions. Surely having a strong arguement matters but we need to act. I think that primarily means to communicate the inconsistencies of rhetoric and action to the masses in a moderate tone. We do have power. The vote is political power. The rights granted in the law is power. Money and finance is power. Employ it to meet humane ends.
As for the return of Jesus not being mentioned in the Qur'an people are looking at the wrong verses. The Qur'an repeatedly says that all that ever has lived shall taste death. According to the Qur'anic teaching Jesus did not experience death and was instead taken to presence of ALLAH swt. My knowledge is solid that he did not die but the my knowledge with regard to the rest has not crystalised. However the expectation of his return is consistent with these teachings. It does not discuss a new birth but a RETURN to earth, a reign for forty years, uniting the 3 faiths. And then he shall die a natural death,meaning to taste death
2004-05-05
MIKE D FROM US said:
I'm just posting this to show that all Christian sects believe in the second coming of Christ, this is the Nicene Creed it's repeated every Sunday in every Catholic church in the world.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
2004-05-03
MIKE D FROM US said:
Revelations was not made up in the 19 th century. Revelation is a book in the Bible in every major Christian sect. From Baptist, to Catholic. It isn't just Fundementalists who believe in the second coming of Christ. In fact you must believe that Christ will come again to be a Christian. I'm personally a Catholic and Revelations is a book of the Catholic Bible. There is some differing views on how the End times will come but the story of Revelations is taught in all of Christianity not just fundementalists. I can say that, I haven't been to church in years, barely practice my religion at all. But I can vouch that Revelations has been taught in any Christian church I've ever attended. So the author is just plain out of touch. The idea is also many Christians will deny Christ and die, as will Jews, and Muslims. But many will accpet Christ during the tribulations and be converted. That is including Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus.... It's not just saying all Jews and Muslims will burn in hell, that's not the message at all. And I still think the US supports Israel is our ally and we need an ally in the region, for military and economical reasons, more than trying to start Armegeddon. Any real fundementalist if that's what Bush and them are would also know that no one knows the time this will happen but Father in heaven. So no matter what someone did to bring about the second coming on, would be in vain. Israel is an ally, and Muslim countries preach to kill Americans on Friday in mosque. Which one would you ally with?
2004-05-03
LULU-UK FROM UK said:
Dear Caitlin, we are all dwellers of this planet and children of one God. The fact that the earth and the sky are so spacious and the earth is so big and spread so vast should give us assurance that we are one race, the human race. It is important that we all accept our differences and treasure our humanity.
The media has its role to play in spreading information but also we humans since we are thinking machines should find out for ourselves the real facts.
Muslims have nothing against any religion and there is no compulsion in Islam. Everyone in this planet is free to worship who he/she wants to worship. The fact that some of us for example us muslims chose a specific religions means that we should respect others as free humans who can choose for themselves the religion they believe in. This is the true spirit of religion tolerance.
In our case being muslims we have great respect for christianity and judaism since we believe in our own way the teachings of prophet Jesus son of Mary and Prophet Moses. The fact that Mary the mother of Jesus is one of the highest respected woman on this earth and in Heaven explains our love for Mary. For more info. on our roots with prophet Ibraham please visit:
http://www.unionoffaiths.com
Any teaching that puts humans into comaprtments or allienates one race from another or teaches that one race or religion is superior to another race should be questioned with a big question mark. God created us all equally with full faculties and the intelligence to survive in this planet as well as to get along with one another is itelf a glory and a blessing. We must preserve the glory of our humanity.
Peace comes from the heart and what comes from the heart reaches everyone's heart.
Peace.
The media has its role to play in spreading information but also we humans since we are thinking machines should find out for ourselves the real facts.
Muslims have nothing against any religion and there is no compulsion in Islam. Everyone in this planet is free to worship who he/she wants to worship. The fact that some of us for example us muslims chose a specific religions means that we should respect others as free humans who can choose for themselves the religion they believe in. This is the true spirit of religion tolerance.
In our case being muslims we have great respect for christianity and judaism since we believe in our own way the teachings of prophet Jesus son of Mary and Prophet Moses. The fact that Mary the mother of Jesus is one of the highest respected woman on this earth and in Heaven explains our love for Mary. For more info. on our roots with prophet Ibraham please visit:
http://www.unionoffaiths.com
Any teaching that puts humans into comaprtments or allienates one race from another or teaches that one race or religion is superior to another race should be questioned with a big question mark. God created us all equally with full faculties and the intelligence to survive in this planet as well as to get along with one another is itelf a glory and a blessing. We must preserve the glory of our humanity.
Peace comes from the heart and what comes from the heart reaches everyone's heart.
Peace.
2004-05-03
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
For Caitlin: You are accusing Muslims of saying things against Christianity in this article? Read the name of the author, don't make foolish comments that Muslims are saying this when it is a British journalist named George Monbiot. Besides, go to the website he refers to www.raptureready.com and you'll see how ignorant and deviated these people have become from the teachings of Jesus Christ.
God Bless.
God Bless.
2004-05-03
CHRISTOPHER FOSSEDAL FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA said:
I don't think the Middle East policies and these so-called "end times" have anything to do with each other. Everything in those "Left Behind" books is not based on any belief in God; it's just a multi-million dollar scam meant to dupe people into worshiping some kind of "new Jesus" after what the authors called the greatest event in human history. What is this greatest event? The Incarnation? The Crucifixion? The Ressurection? Noooooo... It's the "RAPTURE!" A man-made idea based on selected pieces of scripture and twisted together to pretend it's somehow a God-inspired event. I'd also like to point out that this whole tribulation thing doesn't necessaraly have anything to do with the end of the world. People just assume that because it's detailed in the last book of the Bible. By the way, I'm a Republican, but I have little or no love for John Ashcroft.
2004-05-02
AHMED ASGHER FROM BAHRAIN said:
Caitlin
this article was written by a none muslim, so don't off the tanget accusing us of slandering your faith and take a close look at some of the posting. there does exist from amongst you many crazy christian fanatics who thro this admin have been given the chance to inflict their crazy ideas on the muslim world. such ideas find their roots in christian-zionist understandings which has hijacked american governments, in particular this one where many in the ruling party also carry isreali citizenship and encourage jews to go to isreal, those very american jews who do their military service in isreal. ask yourself what flag they serve by doing so? you need to do some research before accusing muslims. at least we believe in all revelation and prophets that God sent to jews AND christians, but you DO NOT believe in anything we hold - there i rest my case.
let there be peace.
p.s. have you seen arab/muslim soldiers in western countries? we have seen your soldiers in many arab/muslim countries. don't you ask yourself what is the reason for this aggression? take a close look at what your soldeirs are doing to defenseless prisoners in iraq, iraqis held by foreign troops in their own homeland. would you tolerate such abuse? no wonder you are the laughing stock of the world, except like the emperor's clothes, you do not see it. know this also that what we have currecntly seen in world media of US military abuse actually took place a year ago. so ask again, what has been happening ever since? this is the tip of the iceberg and people like you think you are God's gift to humanity! you truly bring shame on humanity. enough said. let there be peace for Christ's sake.
peace.
this article was written by a none muslim, so don't off the tanget accusing us of slandering your faith and take a close look at some of the posting. there does exist from amongst you many crazy christian fanatics who thro this admin have been given the chance to inflict their crazy ideas on the muslim world. such ideas find their roots in christian-zionist understandings which has hijacked american governments, in particular this one where many in the ruling party also carry isreali citizenship and encourage jews to go to isreal, those very american jews who do their military service in isreal. ask yourself what flag they serve by doing so? you need to do some research before accusing muslims. at least we believe in all revelation and prophets that God sent to jews AND christians, but you DO NOT believe in anything we hold - there i rest my case.
let there be peace.
p.s. have you seen arab/muslim soldiers in western countries? we have seen your soldiers in many arab/muslim countries. don't you ask yourself what is the reason for this aggression? take a close look at what your soldeirs are doing to defenseless prisoners in iraq, iraqis held by foreign troops in their own homeland. would you tolerate such abuse? no wonder you are the laughing stock of the world, except like the emperor's clothes, you do not see it. know this also that what we have currecntly seen in world media of US military abuse actually took place a year ago. so ask again, what has been happening ever since? this is the tip of the iceberg and people like you think you are God's gift to humanity! you truly bring shame on humanity. enough said. let there be peace for Christ's sake.
peace.
2004-05-02
CAITLIN FROM USA said:
To let you know where I'm coming from, I am a devout Christian. I do not pay enough attention to Bush's actions on a moral stand-point because he knows more things that are going on than the rest of us. But what I do know is that the mocking of the second coming of Christ and the Rapture greatly offends me. Granted, if you do not belief such things, than that's your business, but you have no right to insult my faith. Before you go off half-cocked about what you believe to be foolishness, understand the meaning and symbolism each subject holds. Firstly, the Rapture does not focus on nudism. The need for clothing in heaven does not exist, for there is no shame or need to hide yourself. Adam and Eve were even created without cover, there's no reason why those bound for heaven need to have such provisions. Nakedness symbolizes closeness and intimacy (not in a sexual way), so the going up without clothes is just how God wishes us to be. Also, those who have acsended because of the Rapture are not sitting there watching the torments of others and in essence, eating popcorn, they are worshipping the one and only God and are aware of what's going on to be God's will, no delight is taken from anyone; it is a judgment action, not entertainment. Secondly, a person's plans to speed along the second coming of Christ is futile, for God himself planned it all according to His will, no one elses, regardless of what some extremeists believe (which I'm sure you'll agree on, due to the terrorism the world experiences from Islamic extremeists). In conclusion, don't make fun of what you aren't going to understand (and no, you never will understand unless you become a true follower of Christ), and by making such understudied conclusions, you bring shame and embarrassment upon your name and faith. I'm glad not everyone is like you and I pray that just because people read this does not mean that they take it to heart.
2004-05-01
MUSLIMAH FROM USA said:
Most Muslims did not believe 911 was done by Muslims. As time goes by it seems Muslims were right not to believe. It makes no sense why there has been so much secrecy about the investigation on 911 and they had to expand the power of the government to detain indefinetly and without any charge all the Muslim prisoners. They say this is to get intelligence, but for me it seems they are trying to gather information about these detainees to make their explaination of the events of that tragic day believable by putting just enough factual information about their travels and link them. For example, if some guy visited a city at a certain time and another prisoner lived there or was traveling in the vicinity they can link them and charge them with having met and planned at that time. This is not far fetched, as it has happened before. There is a history of governments and individuals who have tried to frame certain groups of some crime so that they can have the mandate to get rid of them without breaking any law and have public opinion on their side. In the 50's Israel conducted terrorist attacks in Egypt against British interest in order to frame the Egyptians. They tried another time by trying unsuccessfully to sink a U.S. ship in the 60's. Both times they were exposed. But I am sure they have learned their mistakes and have continued to frame Arabs, this time successfully. If this was not the case then, there is no reason for secrecy. I think the U.S. would be very happy and forthcoming about the evidence against their prisoners, so as to not leave any doubt. Instead, they have ambigously went on the route of secrecy and consequently alarmed a great deal people.
The one thing that makes no sense to me about those charged to have done 911 is that they apparently have been able to reroute the airplanes very precisely without having never done it before. I heard on the radio some pilots couldn't understand how they could have done it.
The one thing that makes no sense to me about those charged to have done 911 is that they apparently have been able to reroute the airplanes very precisely without having never done it before. I heard on the radio some pilots couldn't understand how they could have done it.
2004-04-30
ABU HAMZA FROM UK said:
Well just in case there are those that don't believe that people can hold such awful views. Here is a wonderful forum where you can speak to the most demonic christians anywhere, and they are living right there in the US
http://forums.delphiforums.com/USpatriots/start
you have to become a member of delphi which is free, but the rewards are immense
http://forums.delphiforums.com/USpatriots/start
you have to become a member of delphi which is free, but the rewards are immense
2004-04-30
HASAN FROM USA said:
I have to say that I don't buy this argument. There is outstanding documentation going back 2 the Ford Administration about foreign policy interests in the ME in general, & the Arab/ Persian Gulf in particular. Even a brief read of that history of US interests in oil, the cold war model of controlling important resources, and US spheres of influence. To read a great OLD book that reads like a script of what happened in the Gulf in 1991-92 and last year, I would suggest "Myth, Oil, and Politics" written in the 80s by Charles Doran, a friend of the Reagan Administration.
Another question is what enables Bush 2get away with a false tie b/w Hussein & Bin Laden, & ignore the real war against terrorist groups 2 purse this agenda. At this time, Monbiot's article becomes more, but still not entirely, relevant. Again, two good political books, "The Price of Loyalty" (O'Neill) and "Against All Enemies" (Clark) give you a sense of the tone of this administration and their interests.
Another question is what enables Bush 2get away with a false tie b/w Hussein & Bin Laden, & ignore the real war against terrorist groups 2 purse this agenda. At this time, Monbiot's article becomes more, but still not entirely, relevant. Again, two good political books, "The Price of Loyalty" (O'Neill) and "Against All Enemies" (Clark) give you a sense of the tone of this administration and their interests.
2004-04-28
CHRIS FROM USA said:
As a US soldier who was in iraq. I think this article is important for christians and muslims to be aware of. There is radicals on both sides of world who want a bloody confrontation between east and west when both religions both teach peace and tolerance but always hijack by blood thirty politcal opponents. When i was a chrisitian i use to believe same things this article said about christians beliefs and when i became muslim i got a world perspective of human right and religous values. I learn that the chrisitianty belived in america is not christianity the rest of christiandom believes. Christianty is as comprhensive as any thing else globally and shouldnt be interpeted just by new sects from one area of the world. Where islam should not give into reformists who feel unsatified by the will of the divine and should have peacful hearts and learn to be good examples for mankind. We all mankind should give up dissension and embrace peace and submit to god.
salaams
chris
salaams
chris
2004-04-28
FATIMA FROM DENMARK, EUROPE said:
Assalam Alaikum to all muslims and peace to every one else of you.
First of all I would say that you cant call Bush, Blair or other western leader for a "Christian". The west has lost its Christian way of thinking..way of acting and treating others. What we see in this so called "age of disorder" is people of cruelty, ignorance and intolarance. I swear to God that if the west has been a christianized world then it would act VERY different. Christianity respects muslims. It calls for peace , security, justice and love for all according to the BIBLE from one All-mighty God Allah SWT.
What we have to realize is that Bush and the rest of the world leaders are ATHEISTS with no faith or believe in any MONOTHEISTIC religion. They dont care about any Creator or deovting to that creator who created whats between heavens and earth so why accuse christianity for allowing such perverse stuffs that we see in the west?
Christianity does no allow homosexuality, adultery, selfishness, restlessness or any kind of life style or mentality in th west. Wake up people. Muslims or non-muslims those leaders that we call for being christians are not christians. The bible does not allow to attack a muslim country to steal oil from people who has suffered many years from the tyrrany of Saddam and now of Bush!!!
Im sure that Jews, Christiand and Muslims can all live in peace and harmony just like they did for many years ago. In the Islamic state where they were protected by the Islamic leaders. Even the messenger of Allah SWt. Muhammed S.A commanded to protect these people. In the Quran they are called "People of the Book". They are loved and honoured in the Quran for believing in One true God Allah SWT. Allah Commands the muslims to respect them and have a good relationship with them. Jews and christians who are devoted to their religion are our BROTHERS and FRIENDS because Allah SWT. Commands us to protect and love them.
Peace to all of you.
Yours faithfully,
First of all I would say that you cant call Bush, Blair or other western leader for a "Christian". The west has lost its Christian way of thinking..way of acting and treating others. What we see in this so called "age of disorder" is people of cruelty, ignorance and intolarance. I swear to God that if the west has been a christianized world then it would act VERY different. Christianity respects muslims. It calls for peace , security, justice and love for all according to the BIBLE from one All-mighty God Allah SWT.
What we have to realize is that Bush and the rest of the world leaders are ATHEISTS with no faith or believe in any MONOTHEISTIC religion. They dont care about any Creator or deovting to that creator who created whats between heavens and earth so why accuse christianity for allowing such perverse stuffs that we see in the west?
Christianity does no allow homosexuality, adultery, selfishness, restlessness or any kind of life style or mentality in th west. Wake up people. Muslims or non-muslims those leaders that we call for being christians are not christians. The bible does not allow to attack a muslim country to steal oil from people who has suffered many years from the tyrrany of Saddam and now of Bush!!!
Im sure that Jews, Christiand and Muslims can all live in peace and harmony just like they did for many years ago. In the Islamic state where they were protected by the Islamic leaders. Even the messenger of Allah SWt. Muhammed S.A commanded to protect these people. In the Quran they are called "People of the Book". They are loved and honoured in the Quran for believing in One true God Allah SWT. Allah Commands the muslims to respect them and have a good relationship with them. Jews and christians who are devoted to their religion are our BROTHERS and FRIENDS because Allah SWT. Commands us to protect and love them.
Peace to all of you.
Yours faithfully,
2004-04-28
T J SIDDIQUI FROM GERMANY said:
Fundamentalist Christians have been the bloodiest and the most mischeivous religious group the world has seen. History testifies to that, the latest being the Church's complicity in the Rwandan massacre.
It is amazing how such a violent creed is sold as one that preaches love. Funny!
It is amazing how such a violent creed is sold as one that preaches love. Funny!
2004-04-28
MEBROCKY FROM USA said:
Another example of what fundamentalism is doing to the great harm of us all. These are views that are shared by a lot of misguided, mostly Protestant Christians. I am pretty sure that Catholics do not share this view. In any case I have a better understanding of what it must be like for so many Muslims to have to defend their faith because of a relatively small group of extremists. Lord, have mercy on us all.
2004-04-28
ABU FROM UK said:
Finally. Monibots article has landed here, i first read the actual article after someone recomended it here a few days ago, i laughed with amusement and sighed with concern, i mean to know that most powerfull men in the world are a bunch of nutters, anyway its an eye opener no doubt.
I have a couple of questions to the posted responses:
(Dilwar Khan)
brother are you sure there is no refference to imam Mahdi in the Quran, maybe you need to double check that before commenting like that.
(American Christian)
I think you have confused yourself about the rules, they apply to anyone who is posting a response to an article, not to the articles themselves.
I am sorry that you feel threattened by this article but let me point something out for, this artcle was posted in the Guardian by George Monibot and was not written by a Muslim, this site is responsible for bringing such articles to light that are of interest to Muslims as this article undoubtedly is and the article are always refferenced from the orirginal source. make sure you check it out youreself on : http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html
I have a couple of questions to the posted responses:
(Dilwar Khan)
brother are you sure there is no refference to imam Mahdi in the Quran, maybe you need to double check that before commenting like that.
(American Christian)
I think you have confused yourself about the rules, they apply to anyone who is posting a response to an article, not to the articles themselves.
I am sorry that you feel threattened by this article but let me point something out for, this artcle was posted in the Guardian by George Monibot and was not written by a Muslim, this site is responsible for bringing such articles to light that are of interest to Muslims as this article undoubtedly is and the article are always refferenced from the orirginal source. make sure you check it out youreself on : http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html
2004-04-28
AMERICAN CHRISTIAN FROM USA said:
1. Do not make personal attacks on others.
2. Do not condemn or degrade others beliefs.
3. Do not harass, abuse, or threaten other members.
4. Do not post content that is obscene or otherwise objectionable.
These are good rules! I could not help but notice the personal attacks made in this article! Or the comdemnation and degradation of Christianity. As a Christian I feel threatened by this article. I will pray that God will forgive and bless you.
2. Do not condemn or degrade others beliefs.
3. Do not harass, abuse, or threaten other members.
4. Do not post content that is obscene or otherwise objectionable.
These are good rules! I could not help but notice the personal attacks made in this article! Or the comdemnation and degradation of Christianity. As a Christian I feel threatened by this article. I will pray that God will forgive and bless you.
2004-04-27
THE CATHOLIC HERETIC FROM USA said:
I'm not sure I get the jump from the Middle East to Texas? I think Vatican City would be closer. In any event there is no way Christians can hasten God's plan, regardless of what we do in the political arena. What is really driving President Bush is the misguided assumption that there can be peace in the Middle East. That will never happen. Even if Israel were to fall off the face of the earth I don't see Iraq and Iran becoming best buddies. Israel is the focus of hatred from the rest of the Middle East and if it were not there the focus of the Arab world would turn to some other country or group of people. You cannot impose peace on people who do not understand fundamental human rights. American people of Middle Eastern decent don't understand this because they have become westernized. Look at how Middle Eastern countries treat Freedom of worship; the rights of women, as equals to men and these are just two that the Middle Eastern people have problems accepting. I think your argument is interesting but won't hold water.
2004-04-27
SHIRLEY THOMAS FROM USA said:
asalam alekam again, haha,I just cant keep my mouth shut on this one because, having been a christin at one time, and haveing met many in my life, i will say we muslims are thought of as evil and anti God and heathens because we dont believe in the salvation that christians believe comes from jesus and the crucifixion,i just last week heard this from a preachers wife, one that had lived as a missionary to pakistan and been there 20 years and now back here in the states, i was told my Quran offered no security becuase i didnt believe as her,well to that i will say, God offers security to those he has called and i feel secure my islam,it is my heart and though id say about 90 some percent here are christian,about 70 % of them dont know what is muslim probably and others on listen to what they are told and dont even bother to educate themselves with the truth of the Quran,i say right on Islam! May Allah give us strength in the umma for the end times and troubles we are already facing, Thanks,shirley
2004-04-27
SIRIUS FROM FINLAND said:
There must be something badly wrong with these "christian" fundamentalists in States, to which I include GWB and his admistration. What has GWB done? Some examples
-more money to people who are filthy rich already and vice versa
-denial of international jury(don't know the offical name)
-denial of Kioto agreement
-waging war, which was based on sheer lies (WMD)--> killing innocent people
Uhh.. perfecting this list takes too long time, please continue.
So, how christian does this list look like??
Yes, these's no way people committing such acts can be christians. On contrary, if these people are looking for signs of antichrist they only have to step in front of a mirror. They are disgrace to christianity. I'm quite sure these guys have white robes and hoods hidden somewhere in their wardrobes! I sincerely hope americans make another choice in the forthcoming elections. Another term of this George "TroubleYou" Fuzz would be too scary a scenario to live with.
-more money to people who are filthy rich already and vice versa
-denial of international jury(don't know the offical name)
-denial of Kioto agreement
-waging war, which was based on sheer lies (WMD)--> killing innocent people
Uhh.. perfecting this list takes too long time, please continue.
So, how christian does this list look like??
Yes, these's no way people committing such acts can be christians. On contrary, if these people are looking for signs of antichrist they only have to step in front of a mirror. They are disgrace to christianity. I'm quite sure these guys have white robes and hoods hidden somewhere in their wardrobes! I sincerely hope americans make another choice in the forthcoming elections. Another term of this George "TroubleYou" Fuzz would be too scary a scenario to live with.
2004-04-27
AHMED FROM UK said:
You're mistaken Akbar. The real number stands at a staggering 44% of American christians who subscribe to this insane ideology. We should call it for what it really is TERRORISM, pure and simple.
Come on neocons/zionists/empire worshippers, tell me who wants a clash of civilizations ?
Come on neocons/zionists/empire worshippers, tell me who wants a clash of civilizations ?
2004-04-27
CHARLES JACKS FROM USA said:
What happens when a person carrying china over rocks suddenly drops it?
This has been going on for several years (decades actually). It started after the civil war. (1865) But has gotten a big boost with the "Left Behind" series of books and the 2000 date. Sadly, most of the Christians in the White house are too ignorant of the Bible to notice that the Rapture is slated to occur after the tribulation. But they are more than happy to secretly hope for others to go through hell on earth while they fly off to heaven. (Before sells better.) And many have been duped by Zionists trying to get support (These Christians also don't know the bible well enough to notice that Jesus said the Jews had lost the covenant for failure to preform.) for the human rights violations in Palestine.
What is interesting to me is the counter culture forming. See http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0426/p01s01-ussc.html The Christians that are more willing to be told what to think than check the facts have traditionally been the force behind the racism in the US. The "white superiority" groups are growing fast and coming out of the closet. Notice the editorial by Buckhannon about a month ago?
With the two candidates trying to out Israeli the Israeli's to get votes they are just fanning the flames of those who see Washington DC as Zionist Occupied Government. (If you have a strong stomach look up "ZOG")
Where will this lead? No where good as the militaristic Israel supporters come into conflict with the militaristic neo-Nazis, both of which prefer the old testament over the new (forget the message of Love).
Muslims shouldn't get involved with either group or their conflict. God checks one group with another. We can only hope both groups reduce the strength of the other.
Then maybe those with a little compassion will come to the fount. Avoid ideologues whose ideology doesn't include truth, justice or compassion.
This has been going on for several years (decades actually). It started after the civil war. (1865) But has gotten a big boost with the "Left Behind" series of books and the 2000 date. Sadly, most of the Christians in the White house are too ignorant of the Bible to notice that the Rapture is slated to occur after the tribulation. But they are more than happy to secretly hope for others to go through hell on earth while they fly off to heaven. (Before sells better.) And many have been duped by Zionists trying to get support (These Christians also don't know the bible well enough to notice that Jesus said the Jews had lost the covenant for failure to preform.) for the human rights violations in Palestine.
What is interesting to me is the counter culture forming. See http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0426/p01s01-ussc.html The Christians that are more willing to be told what to think than check the facts have traditionally been the force behind the racism in the US. The "white superiority" groups are growing fast and coming out of the closet. Notice the editorial by Buckhannon about a month ago?
With the two candidates trying to out Israeli the Israeli's to get votes they are just fanning the flames of those who see Washington DC as Zionist Occupied Government. (If you have a strong stomach look up "ZOG")
Where will this lead? No where good as the militaristic Israel supporters come into conflict with the militaristic neo-Nazis, both of which prefer the old testament over the new (forget the message of Love).
Muslims shouldn't get involved with either group or their conflict. God checks one group with another. We can only hope both groups reduce the strength of the other.
Then maybe those with a little compassion will come to the fount. Avoid ideologues whose ideology doesn't include truth, justice or compassion.
2004-04-27
RIZWAN KHAWAJA FROM U.S.A said:
Christian fundamentalists evengelists are very dangerous people since they sit right at the heart of the greatest military power on earth. NO EFFORT SHOULD BE SPARED TO EXPOSE THEM, THEIR DESTRUCTIVE AGENDA AND THE GREAT GREAT DANGER TEHY POSE TO THE PEACE OF THIS PLANET. Their prime target is Islam
2004-04-26
ESTHER FROM USA said:
No one needs to start a war in the Middle East to make Jesus and the anti-Christ come. Read the book of Revelations. It has already been ordained.
2004-04-26
DILAWAR KHAN FROM U.S.A. said:
I don't know much about Bible but I know a little bit of Quran. Absolutely nothing of what passes as the Islamic signs of the end times has any basis in Quran. There is no mention of any Imam Mehdi, none of second coming of Jesus or his leading a Muslim army or any of that stuff that is thrown around as " predictions ". All of these have come from Ahadees, which is mostly based on Jewish and Christian folklore.
There are numerous references in Quran of various peoples wanting to know in a mocking way as to when the final day will arrive and every time the answer is the same: " This is one thing that God has not revealed to any one. He and only He knows the time", and that it will be sudden.
There is one passage in Quran about all these people who are trying to engineer Armageddon.
" .... And if God did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would indeed be full of mischief ..." Verse 251, Chapter 2
In that sense I believe that God will check the mischiefs of these Christian Zionists through Muslims.
There are numerous references in Quran of various peoples wanting to know in a mocking way as to when the final day will arrive and every time the answer is the same: " This is one thing that God has not revealed to any one. He and only He knows the time", and that it will be sudden.
There is one passage in Quran about all these people who are trying to engineer Armageddon.
" .... And if God did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would indeed be full of mischief ..." Verse 251, Chapter 2
In that sense I believe that God will check the mischiefs of these Christian Zionists through Muslims.
2004-04-26
ABDULATEEF ALQADI FROM USA said:
It's interesting that Muslims also believe that there will be a major battle in the end of times. Islam predicts that Jesus Christ, along with the Anticipated Mahdi, will lead the believers in a major battle against the Antichrist, infidels, and specifically the Jews. The main venue of the battle will be Alsham lands, which encompass Palestine.
It's also interesting that Islam tells us that eventually a blessed wind ("Ree7 Tayyebah") will take all the souls of the good believers and leave only the infidels on Earth, where Judgment Day takes when no true believer is left alive.
There are also mentions in Islamic Hadith about the Beast ("Daabah") and the mark on the Antichrist that only true believers will see on his forehead and reads the letters K, F, and R, which means "Kufr", or infidelity in Arabic.
So ultimately, a fight will take place. The Muslims think that they're fighting with the real Jesus Christ against the infidels and the Antichrist. And the Zionist Christians and Jews think exactly the opposite.
Hey guys, one of them must be the real Jesus Christ, and the other is the Antichrist. So I guess the Christian Fundamentalists aren't alone in their beliefs.
I, as a Muslim, believe in the story in general, and I don't deny it. And therefore I don't blame the Christian Fundamentalists and the Zionists for believing their part of the story.
The difference is that we as Muslim don't encourage injustice, wars, and butchery to precipitate this event. We consider it as something inevitable, imposed on us by some one else.
Guess who's that someone else is?
It's also interesting that Islam tells us that eventually a blessed wind ("Ree7 Tayyebah") will take all the souls of the good believers and leave only the infidels on Earth, where Judgment Day takes when no true believer is left alive.
There are also mentions in Islamic Hadith about the Beast ("Daabah") and the mark on the Antichrist that only true believers will see on his forehead and reads the letters K, F, and R, which means "Kufr", or infidelity in Arabic.
So ultimately, a fight will take place. The Muslims think that they're fighting with the real Jesus Christ against the infidels and the Antichrist. And the Zionist Christians and Jews think exactly the opposite.
Hey guys, one of them must be the real Jesus Christ, and the other is the Antichrist. So I guess the Christian Fundamentalists aren't alone in their beliefs.
I, as a Muslim, believe in the story in general, and I don't deny it. And therefore I don't blame the Christian Fundamentalists and the Zionists for believing their part of the story.
The difference is that we as Muslim don't encourage injustice, wars, and butchery to precipitate this event. We consider it as something inevitable, imposed on us by some one else.
Guess who's that someone else is?
2004-04-26
SHUJA FROM LOS ANGELES, US said:
The fight against Islam to the last American by Zionists is already begun. Sorry for poor, ignorannt but good hearted Americans. Busy in baseball, hockey, basketball, football, hollywood wives etc... A great nation has become the victim of few Zionists.
Shuja
Shuja
2004-04-26
SHUJA FROM LOS ANGELES, US said:
Ronni: It is good to know that all Christians are not like that. As a matter of fact, numerous Christians I have met so far do not subscribe to those filthy ideas. However, you should not get upset because nowhwere in the article, the author has branded all the Christians are like that. If any religion has faced so far the worst propaganda, it is none other than Islam. You know, I know and the whole world knows.
Sincerly
Shuja
Sincerly
Shuja
2004-04-26
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
There are more than 15-18% of Christian Americans who believe that "Armageddon" depicts Muslims as being evil. Are these the brokers of peace working in the middle east, or evangelists and christian extremists who believe that they can somehow create their own concept of Armageddon and impose it upon the will of all the people of the world?
These are the dreams of people who are mad. These New World Order evangelicals actually believe that the last battle on Earth will take place in the valley of Megiddo which is in Israel, and they depict Muslims as being evil. They see Islam as being the religion of the false messiah, in fact I remember when a prominent American Christian Fundamentalist speaker actually used the words, "Islam is the religion of the devil." Astagfirullah, if these are the peace makers who wish to establich justice on Earth, then God save humanity.
These ignorant .. need to learn what Islam itself means, which is Peace...so Iguess this means that they are against peace adn for War. Some things speak for themselves I guess.
May Allah (SWA) protect us all from the accursed Shaytan, and lead us to do good works and help each other, for those of us who care for the sake of humanity.
These are the dreams of people who are mad. These New World Order evangelicals actually believe that the last battle on Earth will take place in the valley of Megiddo which is in Israel, and they depict Muslims as being evil. They see Islam as being the religion of the false messiah, in fact I remember when a prominent American Christian Fundamentalist speaker actually used the words, "Islam is the religion of the devil." Astagfirullah, if these are the peace makers who wish to establich justice on Earth, then God save humanity.
These ignorant .. need to learn what Islam itself means, which is Peace...so Iguess this means that they are against peace adn for War. Some things speak for themselves I guess.
May Allah (SWA) protect us all from the accursed Shaytan, and lead us to do good works and help each other, for those of us who care for the sake of humanity.
2004-04-26
CHRISTOPHER WARD FROM USA said:
Whether people like it or not all TRUE christians believe exactly as the author stated. However, it is not our job to make these things happen. They will if God wills them to. Trying to create a war to hasten armageddon is an action of the anti-christ.
2004-04-26
RONNI FROM USA said:
All I have to say, Mr. Author, is that you need to clean up your information about End Time Prophecies from the Biblical standpoint. Yes, what you stated in this article sounds, indeed, laughable. But then, I don't know of many Christians who would agree with your summary/assessment.
How about we look to the Nation of Islam as accurate representors of Islam? You have obviously chosen some fringe group to quote who do not fit the mainstream.
Yes, many of us believe in the rapture. But nowhere does the Bible teach that we will sit at the "right hand of God." Nor does the Bible say that we, mere humans, have to blow up mosques to help God's plan come to pass. How ridiculous.
And there is no one who can say that the antichrist has been identified for certainty, but you have made it sound like the whole Christian community has settled on 1 of 4 individuals.
Frankly, a whole lot of people around the world think Islam's beliefs as a whole are "bonkers" - the ACTUAL beliefs. Making fun of some teachings that do not even accurately reflect the Bible shows a lack of true research and scholarship on your part and a lack of editorial integrity.
How about we look to the Nation of Islam as accurate representors of Islam? You have obviously chosen some fringe group to quote who do not fit the mainstream.
Yes, many of us believe in the rapture. But nowhere does the Bible teach that we will sit at the "right hand of God." Nor does the Bible say that we, mere humans, have to blow up mosques to help God's plan come to pass. How ridiculous.
And there is no one who can say that the antichrist has been identified for certainty, but you have made it sound like the whole Christian community has settled on 1 of 4 individuals.
Frankly, a whole lot of people around the world think Islam's beliefs as a whole are "bonkers" - the ACTUAL beliefs. Making fun of some teachings that do not even accurately reflect the Bible shows a lack of true research and scholarship on your part and a lack of editorial integrity.
2004-04-26
YAHYA BERGUM FROM USA said:
I think it is sad when people want to see horrible wars fought in other places, between other peoples. On the other hand, people should never surrender to the tyranny of a national government so ready to serve the interests of liberals, minorities, immigrants, aliens and queers. Remember the Alamo! Three cheers for the Republic of Texas!
2004-04-26
JEFFEREY ROSENTHAL FROM UK said:
This explains a lot. Now I see why the Christian Church in Florida had offered tmy suster and many of my Jewish friends there $15,000 to relocate to Jerusalem. They have been in fact more militant than us in pushing for teh removal of Palestinians out of Gaza. It seems like the US churches want us to push the Arabs into teh sea.
2004-04-26
KASHIF SHAIKH FROM CANADA said:
Peace,
Certainly a wake up call and knowledg of the influences and damages being done by extremist elements within the Christian milieu.
If this knowledge was made more mainstream available it may guard American's from being so complacent, let astray by such extremists that follow paths contrary to the messages of Peace, Tolerance. Love, and Brotherhood aspoused by Jesus(Peace by upon him).
I hope more articles of this nature are written/distributed more often to warn us of being wary of twisted forms of extremism and the twisted inhuman actions that result.
Certainly a wake up call and knowledg of the influences and damages being done by extremist elements within the Christian milieu.
If this knowledge was made more mainstream available it may guard American's from being so complacent, let astray by such extremists that follow paths contrary to the messages of Peace, Tolerance. Love, and Brotherhood aspoused by Jesus(Peace by upon him).
I hope more articles of this nature are written/distributed more often to warn us of being wary of twisted forms of extremism and the twisted inhuman actions that result.
2004-04-26
SHADAB FROM INDIA said:
I believe it. Islam has already said this clear cut and we know the results are favorable to muslims. Christians know only till Talmud and Bible. The final book has more clearly predicted all this. More than these people Muslims are waiting for this event for 'Golden Age' to arrive with advent of Imam Mehdi.
2004-04-26
MIKE FROM USA said:
fien, the anti christ will rule. he will corrupt and destroy. the blessed Jesus will appear. the Muslims will be his army. Jesus will go after the Antichrist who will escape and seek refuge in Israle. Finally the blessed Jesus will head the Muslim army and will go to Allid, a city under Israeli occupation now, and will capture the antichrist after defeating his supporters "the Israelis" and will kill him and destroy the evil establishment of Israel.
Sounds good to me.
Peace and Love to All
Sounds good to me.
Peace and Love to All
2004-04-26
G.L. FROM U.S.A. said:
that article slandered an entire religion and group of people. how awful!!!!!
2004-04-26
NICK CAMERON FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA said:
Well, at least this isn't just another "It's all about oil, stupid!" article. I think this theory comes closer to the truth about our policy in the Middle East.
2004-04-26
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
There are more than 15-18% of Christian Americans who believe that "Armageddon" depicts Muslims as being evil. Are these the brokers of peace working in the middle east, or evangelists and christian extremists who believe that they can somehow create their own concept of Armageddon and impose it upon the will of all the people of the world?
These are the dreams of people who are mad. These New World Order evangelicals actually believe that the last battle on Earth will take place in the valley of Megiddo which is in Israel, and they depict Muslims as being evil. They see Islam as being the religion of the false messiah, in fact I remember when a prominent American Christian Fundamentalist speaker actually used the words, "Islam is the religion of the devil." Astagfirullah, if these are the peace makers who wish to establich justice on Earth, then God save humanity.
These ignorant bafoons need to learn what Islam itself means, which is Peace...so Iguess this means that they are against peace adn for War. Some things speak for themselves I guess.
May Allah (SWA) protect us all from the accursed Shaytan, and lead us to do good works and help each other, for those of us who care for the sake of humanity.
These are the dreams of people who are mad. These New World Order evangelicals actually believe that the last battle on Earth will take place in the valley of Megiddo which is in Israel, and they depict Muslims as being evil. They see Islam as being the religion of the false messiah, in fact I remember when a prominent American Christian Fundamentalist speaker actually used the words, "Islam is the religion of the devil." Astagfirullah, if these are the peace makers who wish to establich justice on Earth, then God save humanity.
These ignorant bafoons need to learn what Islam itself means, which is Peace...so Iguess this means that they are against peace adn for War. Some things speak for themselves I guess.
May Allah (SWA) protect us all from the accursed Shaytan, and lead us to do good works and help each other, for those of us who care for the sake of humanity.
2004-04-26
HUDD D'ALHAMD FROM CANADA said:
This is sick! So a US president is in fact in the catch of 22. How can such idiotic ideas be harboured by modern people's intellect?! Somebody should inform these people that the Middle Age is gone, this is Middle East we are dealing with??! God have mercy over us if the world politics are under the direct influence of these lunatics! How petty minded a great society like that of USA can be?! Children have a better judgement, for crying out loud! It sickens me, oh God, what idiots!
Peace out!
Peace out!
2004-04-25
