13:15
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35530
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Topic: 13:15
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: 13:15
Date Posted: 15 February 2016 at 5:37am
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Salaam alaikum. I have a question about the verse below.
13:15 And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons. http://searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=13&translator=5#15 Is 13:15 inclusive of every living thing, or a generality but not all things? Does it include only people/angels/jinn or also animals and plants? Is the verse saying that every single thing created prostrates to God, as do their shadows in the mornings and afternoons? Is this a correct understanding? Many thanks and take care. |
Replies:
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 16 February 2016 at 1:55pm
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I don't.
So I just see this verse as an other error in the Quran. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 February 2016 at 8:40pm
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Thanks, Airmano, but according to the Quran you do, you just do it unwillingly.
I am waiting for a Muslim to respond, but it was nice having your input. :) |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 19 February 2016 at 1:11pm
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Even as an atheist I am unconfortable in holding any religious writing to the same scrutiny as a scientific paper. It's poetry first, has a symbolic message second and then finally a world understanding. That the information is often wrong is different to honing in on a single scentence and drawing out large claims from just that smipet. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 February 2016 at 4:15am
| Thank you Tim the plumber for your response, I appreciate it. Am looking forward to hearing Muslims reply :) |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 23 February 2016 at 8:56am
The point I try to make is in respect to the claim of the "Quran being perfect". If such a imho pretentious claim is made it should be scrutinized with even higher standards than scientific articles. Unfortunately it does not even remotely stand up to these claims. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Tim:
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 27 February 2016 at 9:09pm
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Here are http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=13&verse=15 - seven translations of verse 13:12, if you have an issue with its understanding.
Sahih International: And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows [as well] in the mornings and the afternoons. Pickthall: And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours. Yusuf Ali: Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah (Acknowledging subjection),- with good-will or in spite of themselves: so do their shadows in the morning and evenings. Shakir: And whoever is in the heavens and the earth makes obeisance to Allah only, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows too at morn and eve. Muhammad Sarwar: All in the heavens and the earth prostrate themselves before God, either of their own free will or by force, just as do their shadows in the mornings and evenings. Mohsin Khan: And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons. Arberry: To God bow all who are in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows also in the mornings and the evenings. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 28 February 2016 at 2:20am
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I can't help it, your list of translations makes things even worse:
I never felt any compulsion from Allah to prostrate nor did I ever see my shadow doing such things. If taken literally it simply is - and remains - bare nonsense. Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 February 2016 at 7:20pm
Many thanks, AhmadJoiya. The verse does indeed seem to be saying that to God prostrates everyone who is in the heavens and earth, and that the shadow of everyone in the heaven and earth prostrates to God in the morning and evening. I am curious how can this be when there are many animals who are never exposed to the sunlight or any other form of light, like for example troglobites. http://geology.com/stories/13/troglobites/ Like all living things, they prostrate to God. But their shadows don�t, since they are not exposed to any form of light. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 29 February 2016 at 7:53am
| O, I see!! You must be joking if you think that this verse some how shows, that every thing must have shadows. Hats off to your logic and your intellect. Are you serious? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 February 2016 at 7:35pm
The verse says that A) Everything in existence prostrates to God and B) The shadows of everything in existence that prostrates to God, prostrate to Him in the morning and afternoon. Tell me whether or not you would find the following sentence true: And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. Tell me whether or not this is a true statement, and make sure to explain why. Shukran and take care. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 01 March 2016 at 3:26am
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 March 2016 at 4:19am
You did a great job in explaining why the verse is false, yet you also wrote "could be true". How could the statement above be true? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 03 March 2016 at 2:06am
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 March 2016 at 7:34pm
What is the error in my logic? And why are you refusing to answer my question. For the statement: And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. You said it could be true, as well as it could be false given that not all Muslim men have believing wives and not all their wives are Pakistani. How could the statement above be true? I always answer your questions and rebuttals and the points you raise, why do you avoid mine? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 March 2016 at 11:25am
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I think yours relate to propositional fallacy which is kind of fallacies that involve inferences whose correctness is not guaranteed by the behavior of those logical connectives, and hence, which are not logically guaranteed to yield true conclusions. So essentially when you state The shadows of everything in existence that prostrates to God, prostrate to Him in the morning and afternoon.
You just can't infer from here that if there is no shadow, therefore it doesn't prostrate to God. This is same fallacy as If A then B wrongly implying if not A, then not B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent - Wiki gives an interesting example to understand it: If it is raining, then the grass is wet. It is not raining. Therefore, the grass is not wet. So, my question is can you make the grass wet other than through rain? If yes, then fallacy in your argument is proved. |
Posted By: johnford
Date Posted: 05 March 2016 at 7:27pm
Wa alakim salamu The sun and moon are messages of his will .. as the shadows pass across the earth during the course of the day and night all creation prostrate including the umah .. we prostrate according to the passage of the sun .. which effectively means there is a wave of prostrations taking place as the earth revolves round the sun .. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 March 2016 at 5:46am
You completely misunderstood what I was saying. I am not saying that if a thing has no shadow in the morning and evening, that thing does not prostrate to God. I am saying that not everything that prostrates to God (ie everything) has a shadow in the morning and evening. Therefore to say that the shadows of everything that prostrate to God, prostrate in the morning and evening, is false. That is why I asked you about the hypothetical statement, whether it is correct or incorrect. And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. You said it could be true, as well as it could be false given that not all Muslim men have believing wives and not all their wives are Pakistani. You did a great job in explaining why the statement is false. How could it at all be true? For some reason you seem very determined to not answer this question, so determined in fact that you brought up a logical rule that I was not even breaking. I am going to ask you the same question again, and see if you will respond. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 March 2016 at 5:46am
Thanks for explaining, this is what the verse does indeed seem to say. The problem is that while it is true that all creation prostrates to God, it is not true that the shadows of all creation prostrate to God in the morning and evening. The reason for this is that some of God�s creation are not exposed to the sun or other sources of light during these times, and others are not exposed to light at all. So while all may prostrate, it does not follow that the shadows of all prostrate also. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 23 March 2016 at 5:07am
| Haven't you understood the fallacy in your logic, yet? Should I need the help of Ron to make you understand your fallacy? Hmm!! |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 24 March 2016 at 4:05am
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Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 24 March 2016 at 5:15pm
If you are unable to present your argument as to why my logic is wrong, by all means feel free to call Ron or anyone you like. While you are at it, why don't you answer my question. Here we go again: And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. Is this statement true or untrue? Why or why not? You explained why it would be false, but said it could also be true. How could it be true? You offered to call on Ron to "make me understand my fallacy", seeing as you are evidently unable to provide a reason for your charge, and your strawman unfortunately was knocked down. Are there any forum members who I could call on to help encourage you to stop running from a simple question? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 March 2016 at 10:47am
Ok, just once again I try to explain your fallacy.
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Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 March 2016 at 11:01am
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 March 2016 at 4:28pm
Go ahead. And while you're at it, try to not forget or be afraid to answer my question. I am posing it now, for the fourth time. Here it is: And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. Tell me whether or not this is a true statement, and make sure to explain why.
Correct. But these things have no shadow since they are not exposed to the sun.
Yes, I get that. But I am saying that not all things have shadows, and the verse does not say what you just said, that if anything that has a shadow prostrates to God, its shadow will do the same. 13:15 states: And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons. Notice "whoever is in the heavens and the earth", not "whoever is in the heavens and the earth and has a shadow". In other words, according to the verse: A) everything prostrates to God and B) Everything that prostrates to God has a shadow that also prostrates to Him, in the mornings and evenings. Since you seem pretty determined not to discuss the hypothetical statement I made and I have reason to believe that you would not answer it like you didn't do it the last four times, I will do so, and show you how it makes the same kind of fallacy that 13:15 does. If I were to state: And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. It would mean that A) every observant Muslim man prostates to God and B) Every observant Muslim man who prostrates to God has a Pakistani wife or wives who do the same. A) is true. B) is false. B is false because not every Muslim man has a Pakistani wife or wives, or a Pakistani wife or wives who prostrate. By saying "And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. ", I am saying that every Muslim man has a Muslim Pakistani wife or wives. This is false. According to 13:15, A) every being in the heavens and the earth prostrates to God and B) Every being in the heavens and the earth that prostrates to God has a shadow that also prostrates to Him, in the mornings and evenings. B is false because not every being in the heaven and earth who prostates to God has a shadow in the morning or evening (or at all in some cases). By stating "And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.", the verse states that everything that prostrates has a shadow. That is not the case. Hope this is clear now. Feel free to argue and refute and critique and ask questions. I promise to not run from them. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 March 2016 at 5:21pm
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Thanks for the input, Airmano. I think that the verse is saying that by merely existing, everything prostrates, whether they want to or not.
I am curious to see if you want to answer this question, especially the second part, which AhmadJoiya has been refusing to answer. And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. - What is wrong with this statement, if anything. And more importantly. - Is there any way this statement can be true? |
Posted By: bahaiguy
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 1:45am
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Gentlemen, let us bow our heads to the Lord our God, and be mindful of our eternal nothingness before Him.
Surely, it is His will that we love one another, that we strive for peace and brotherhood between all men, that we show utter humility before Him, therefore do we bow our heads as does every living thing in creation. All is created by Him, is therefore subject to Him, prostrates itself therefore unto Him insofar as all is dependent upon Him to even exist. Prostration evokes humility, providing catharsis and awareness through graphic physical expression. �Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.� (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, XV, p. 38) �O SON OF MAN! Transgress not thy limits, nor claim that which beseemeth thee not. Prostrate thyself before the countenance of thy God, the Lord of might and power.� (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words, No. 24) |
Posted By: bebeeells1
Date Posted: 25 August 2016 at 11:23pm
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Thank you Tim the plumber for your response, I appreciate it. Am looking forward to hearing Muslims reply :) |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 10:10am
Sorry, did I miss out your question? What is it? |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 19 September 2016 at 3:44am
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Dear TG12345, peace be with you.
First of all I beg permission to engage in explaining about 13:15 in this topic. In my opinion "Yes" everything that is in the heavens and the earth they are all prostrate to Allah, including the shadow or no shadow, objects animate and inanimate, and all that can be seen or can't seen, all prostrate to Allah, there�s nothing that doesn't prostrate to Allah. What is meant by the verse 13:15 of "prostrate" here doesn't mean the same as when muslims prostrate in prayer/shalah, but here is a manifestation of a tribute to the glory of Allah who has created all that's in heavens and on earth, consciously or not, thankful or not, all of which are essentially at the mercy of Allah, but we don't know how they prostrate, as His word in (17:44). It's almost the same as Angels prostrate to the Prophet of Adam, it doesn't mean the same as when the Muslims prostrate in praying, but the Angels gave respect to the Prophet of Adam. This verse (13:15) shows that what are in the heavens and on earth are basically admitted and rely on Allah who has great power over everything. There are several verses in the Qur'an are called the verses mutashabihat, and such verses contain parables or proverbs, so it requires a special reasoning to uncover the meaning behind that written. We don't see our own shadow prostrate or we've never seen animals prostrate and so on, it shows about the limitations of human ability to uncover all the secrets or mysteries in this universe. Once again, we don't know how they prostrate to Allah, but Allah knows everything, including what is whispered in the human hearts. Regards, |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 21 September 2016 at 2:01pm
I think here you turn things upside down. One may see it as a metaphor (although I do not see what it should teach us) and I'd have no problem with it. But we all know, that neither do animals, nor do our shadow prostrate to Allah. They don't ! To pretend the opposite (even if expressed in a mystifying sentence) is like saying: "The Quran is [always] right - even if it contradicts reality." Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: JerryMyers
Date Posted: 21 September 2016 at 7:36pm
Hope this help you to understand this verse better. Best Regards.
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 23 September 2016 at 10:52am
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Dear Airmano,
Sorry I didn't turn things upside down, I was just giving my opinion of "prostration" in 13:15 �And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.� I believe in word of Allah that they prostrate to Allah, but I don't know how they prostrate to Allah. Example: Before there's air transportation, at the time it was probably humans would not believe that humans could fly like a bird. But in fact now, all humans believe that humans can fly, although there are differences in how to fly, birds fly by using wings while humans fly by using air transportation, but it still has the same meaning as "fly". Likewise with "prostrate" in 13:15, maybe someday we can prove it despite the way they prostrate is not the same as we've ever seen. --------------------------------------------------- To pretend the opposite (even if expressed in a mystifying sentence) is like saying: "The Quran is [always] right - even if it contradicts reality." --------------------------------------------------- Yes, the Quran is true, because I believe in the such book, on the contrary, you'll believe in the book that you believe. Regards. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 September 2016 at 2:31am
The trick with holy books is, that by declaring them "holy" [= above any doubt], one forbids critical questioning about them. In this case [prostration] this very mechanism becomes all too visible. We all do know -and so do you(!)- that shadows do not prostrate, nor do stones, animals or anything else that is non-human. Instead of seeing and accepting the obvious, the vague principle of "one day we may see" is held up. (In a weak attempt to make the Quran look true in this respect). It is like me claiming: One day our telescopes will be strong enough to detect the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot - "celestial teapot" Absolutely the same logic: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 04 October 2016 at 6:57pm
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Dear Airmano,
For me, you want to believe it or not it's your choice, and I would not impose it, but I believe that the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospels and the Quran are the books that came from God. Almost all the people in this world believe that the universe is not likely to happen by itself, it's sufficient to prove the existence of a great power that is able to make it, and for those who have religions call Him "God," and believe in God then they will believe in His revelations written in the books. And things that make me believe they "Prostration" because God himself told us that they prostrate, I don't say it, but we don't know how they prostrate. Likewise your claim about "celestial teapot", we do not know whether humanity can prove it or not by science, but it could have been revealed by mankind because God has told mankind to penetrate the end of heavens and the earth as mentioned through His Word, now mankind have found the core of the earth while the end of heavens have yet discovered. God said as it means there is a sign for mankind to be able to do it, in contrast to His other creations like "the hereafter", God didn't tell us to explore it because it'll be found by the only one way, that is death. Science is man's attempt to understand the universe via research and analysis that are fragmentary, but it doesn't make mankind itself to be better in front of God, whereas religion is a message given by God in addition to help in identifying who created the universe (God) and also provide information support to the human beings, what can be explored by mankind, and what can't be explored by human beings in this universe. Einstein argued about the atomic nucleus: "For example, when a few years ago, when we haven't been able to prove the existence of an atomic nucleus, if we carelessly infer that atomic nucleus doesn't exist, then in today's perspective, we wouldn't have done a very big mistake?" Einstein also said: "Some people views that religion is not in line with scientific truth. I am a science researcher, I am very aware that today science can only prove the existence of an object, but can�t prove lack of circumstances of an object. Therefore, if we still can�t prove the existence of certain objects, we can�t conclude that the object isn't there. " Einstein also argued: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind". There are two points here: 1. The importance of religion to science. 2. The importance of science to prove the truth of religion. They are complementary. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 15 November 2016 at 10:41am
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 15 November 2016 at 10:43am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 3:12pm
Dear Saved, In this case, we have the same understanding. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 12:04am
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Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 12:04am
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Dear saved,
Yes, in this case we have the same understanding. not only that, but everything that Allah created in this universe prostrating to Him, but we have limitations to see how they prostrate to Allah. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 6:58am
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