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MUHAMMED (S) IN REVELATION 12 (2017)

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    Posted: 17 June 2017 at 11:19pm
Your are just reading into this verse and all the other Muslim commentators what your imagination twists for you.

What is this verse sayng ? �The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:� (Rev. 1:1)
Notice it says servants � plural. With an �S�. nothing to signify Mohamad there !
You see that? It shows how you and Muslim commentators twist the scriptures to fit Mohamad.
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

A. The woman.

1. (Rev 12:1) The woman is described in celestial images.

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

a. Now a great sign appeared: This is the first of seven signs that John relates, and is described as a great sign (mega semeion). In Revelation chapters 12, 13, and 14 the main figures of the Great Tribulation are described, and this great sign introduces the first of the seven:
- The woman, representing Israel - The dragon, representing Satan - The man-child, referring to Jesus - The angel Michael, head of the angelic host - The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith in the Tribulation - The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist - The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the antichrist
b. A woman clothed with the sun: Because John plainly says this is a sign, we don't expect this woman to appear literally on the earth. God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us. Women often represent religious systems in Revelation.
- Jezebel is associated with a religious system of false teaching (Revelation 2:20) - The Great Harlot is associated with false religion (Revelation 17:2) - The Bride is associated with the church (Revelation 19:7-8)
c. The woman clothed with the sun in this passage has been associated with many different religious ideas. Roman Catholics claim this woman is Mary, pictured as the "Queen of Heaven." Mary Baker Eddy said she was this woman.

i. It is common in Roman Catholic art to represent Mary as standing on a crescent moon with twelve stars around her head.

d. Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represents Jacob, the moon represents Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars are the sons of Israel which bow down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now "among" the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20).

2. (Rev 12:2) The woman gives birth.

Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

a. Being with child: Later in the chapter, it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Revelation 12:5).

b. She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth: The pain described refers to the travail of Israel at the time of Jesus' birth (under Roman occupation and oppression).

B. The dragon.

1. (Rev 12:3) A fearful, powerful dragon appears.

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

a. Another sign appeared in heaven: Again, we are reminded that this is a sign. The creature here is not literally a great, fiery red dragon, but the dragon represents his nature and character.

i. His description "symbolically suggests his fierce power and murderous nature � a picture of the fullness of evil in all its hideous strength." (Johnson)

b. Seven diadems on his heads: This dragon has great power (seven heads and ten horns) and claims royal authority (seven diadems). The crowns represent his presumptive claims of royal authority against the true King. He wants to be considered a king.

i. "From the similar description given in 13:1 and the parallel references in Daniel 7:7-8, 2, it is clear that the revived Roman Empire is in view � The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8, who is to be identified with the world ruler of the great tribulation who reigns over the revived Roman Empire." (Walvoord)

2. (Rev 12:4) The dragon looks to the earth.

His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

a. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven: Many believe this describes one-third of the angelic host in league with Satan (his angels of Revelation 12:9). This army of angelic beings in league with Satan makes up the world of demonic spirits.

i. "God never made an evil being; but He made angels, principalities, and powers capacitated for mighty joys and distinctions in His glorious domain, yet with free will, implied in the very creation of moral beings, which they could exercise for their everlasting weal or woe. Many have remained steadfast, to wit, 'Michael and his angels.' But some abode not in the truth, but revolted against the rule of Heaven, and became unchanging enemies of God and His Kingdom." (Seiss)

b. To devour her Child as soon as it was born: The attempt to devour her Child was initially fulfilled by Herod's attempts to kill Jesus as a child (Matthew 2:16-18). It was also fulfilled throughout Jesus' life as Satan attacked Him (John 8:58 and Mark 4:35-41).

C. The child.

1. (Rev 12:5) Jesus' ministry is described by its earthly beginning and end.

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

a. A male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: Clearly, this refers to Jesus Christ, the Messiah. He rules the world with a rod of iron (Psalm 2 and Revelation 19:15).

b. She bore a male Child refers to Jesus' birth. Rule all nations with a rod of iron refers to the triumphant return of Jesus. By stating the "bookends" of Jesus' earthly work, John alludes to all that stands in between.

i. "After a conflict with the Prince of this world, who came and tried Him, but found nothing in Him, the Son of the woman was taken up to heaven and sat on the right hand of God. Words can hardly be plainer than these." (Alford)

c. This male Child is obviously Jesus. This means that the woman of Revelation 12:1 cannot be the church, because Jesus "gives birth" to the church, not the other way around. The woman must therefore either be Mary or Israel, the only two "women" who could have "given birth" to Jesus. The rest of Revelation 12 will demonstrate that this woman is Israel, not Mary.

2. (Rev 12:6) The woman in the wilderness.

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

a. Then the woman fled into the wilderness: Persecuted by the dragon, the woman is protected by God in a prepared place for one thousand two hundred and sixty days

i. This helps us to understand with certainty that the woman is Israel and not Mary. How could Mary possibly flee into the wilderness in this way?

b. One thousand two hundred and sixty days: This reference to a three and one-half year period connects these events with the final seven years of the Daniel 9 prophecy. Since Revelation 12:5 describes the ascension of Jesus, and Revelation 12:6 describes yet-to-occur events in the 70th week of Daniel, between these two verses lies hundreds of years (our current period). This obvious "near-far" break in time is typical of prophecy. Daniel's seventy week prophecy has such a break (Daniel 9:24-27).

c. Into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God: Some believe this place in the wilderness is the rock city of Petra, south of the Dead Sea. Reportedly, Christian businessmen have stocked the place with food and evangelistic tracts written in Hebrew.

d. Prepared in the wilderness: Prepared uses the same ancient Greek word Jesus used in I go to prepare a place for you (John 14:2-3). This demonstrates that God's careful planning works on earth as well as in heaven.

D. Conflict in heaven.

1. (Rev 12:7-8) War between Michael and the dragon.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

a. War broke out in heaven: At the mid-point of the great tribulation, God will turn the tide against Satan - first in heaven, then on earth. A battle will take place that will deny Satan access to heaven.

b. Michael and his angels: Some individuals and groups (such as the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses) insist on saying that Michael is actually Jesus. This is wrong on every count.

i. Some say Michael must be Jesus, because he has his angels. But if Satan - a fallen angelic being - has his angels (Revelation 12:7), which can't Michael - an unfallen angelic being - have his angels?

ii. Some say Michael must be Jesus, because his name means One like God. But if this were a title of Jesus, it could argue against His deity, not for it - because it would say that Jesus is like God, but not God. "There is also an unquestionable Godlikeness in all holy beings, which must be very exalted in those preeminent among the ministers of the throne." (Seiss)

iii. Some say Michael must be Jesus, because he is called the archangel (Jude 9), which means leader or prince among the angels, and they say that only Jesus is the leader of the angels. But we know from Daniel 10:13, 10:20 and 10:21 that Michael is one angelic prince among others. Also, Paul refers to an archangel in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in a way that presupposes other archangels.

iv. Some say that Michael must be Jesus, because Paul says that at the rapture, the Lord will call His people with the voice of an archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16). But Jesus can use an angel to call out for His people without being that angel, just as much as God can use a trumpet to sound out a call without being the trumpet.

v. Jude 9 says that Michael would not rebuke or accuse Satan on His own authority, but only say "The Lord rebuke you." This shows that Michael isn't Jesus, because Jesus often rebuked Satan and demons in His own authority (Matthew 17:18, Mark 1:25, 9:25, Luke 4:8, 4:35).

vi. "Michael is not to be identified with Christ, any more than any other of the great angels in this Book. Such identification here would confuse hopelessly the actors in this heavenly scene." (Alford)


Edited by 2Acts - 17 June 2017 at 11:19pm
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Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

Mohamad in Revelation 12 ? Nope !
The book of Revelation is a vision from Jesus Christ, given to Him by God the Father, which reveals what is going to happen before His return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This fascinating book is primarily written in a chronological style with occasional breaks for overviews of specific subjects. Revelation 12 is one of these overviews, providing a history stretching from the time before humans existed until the time just before Christ�s return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


The Child

The woman (God�s chosen nation of Israel) is described as giving birth to a �male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron� (Revelation 12:5). Indeed, Christ was born into this nation. The verse continues, �And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.� The language here makes it clear that Jesus is the �Child.�

Jesus is the One who is prophesied to �strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron� (Revelation 19:15). He is also the One who, after His resurrection, was taken up in a cloud to heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
 

 you forgot this verse?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:� (Rev. 1:1)


Now he revealed the truth what is the kingdom of God:


shortly come to pass:

26 AND HE SAID, SO IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD, AS IF A MAN SHOULD CAST SEED INTO THE GROUND;

27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

He then asked them:

30 AND HE SAID, WHEREUNTO SHALL WE LIKEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD? OR WITH WHAT COMPARISON SHALL WE COMPARE IT?

Then he told them:

31 it is like �a grain of mustard seed�, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: 32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. (Mark 4: 2-31)

Matthew chapter 6 verses 31-32 he summarized. Let�s look at it. It mentioned:

 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to �a grain of mustard seed�, which �a man� took, and sowed in his field: 32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh �a tree�, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches. (Matthew 6:31-32)

That is how God�s government will set up, by sowing of a seed by a man. What is the �grain of mustard seed?� It is a �message, the word of God to come�.  To be more explicit, in Luke chapter 8 verse 11 says, that the �seed� represent the �word of God�. It read as follows:

Now the parable is this: The �seed� is the �word of God�. (Luke 8:11)

That would mean the �seed� which is the �word of God� and the �man� is the one who will deliver that message and when it grows and become �a tree��the establishment of God�s laws, God government on earth. The coming of that �message� is the coming of God�s Kingdom on earth as it mentioned in Revelation 12; and the coming of the message mentioned in rev. 14:6-7.

It mentioned:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of haven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with aloud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.� (Rev.14:6-7)

That is the future tense! The book of Revelation Ch. 14: 6-7 which is a part of the Bible (Collection of books), which is already here, it�s mentioned of an �angel coming from heaven� with the everlasting gospel for all nations. The Greek word �Euaggelion� which translate as Gospel, it literal meaning is �Good News�. The NWT got it correct.

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting GOOD NEWS to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, 7 saying in a loud voice: �FEAR God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.� (Rev.14: 6-7 NWT)

THE POWER OF CHRIST

And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of ironNow comes Salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and power of his Christ� (Rev. 12:5-10).

It also mentioned there: �Now come�the power of Christ� (Rev. 12:10)

Note: It says �power of Christ�. And not Christ!

What is his power? It is the arrival of the Kingdom of God; and Kingdom of God is also the �rod of iron� it was prophesied by Yesus (Jesus) pbuh.

This is the power of Christ, He said:

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken�� (Matt.  21:44)

As I have explained Matthew 21:42-43 that the stone represent the message which is the kingdom of God and it would be taken away from the Jews and given to another nation and that message will bear fruit and be marvelous in our eyes. So, when it mentioned, �whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken�� That would mean no other message would be able to destroy it (the final message/ the Kingdom of God). That is the Power of Christ! He will rule all nations with the rod of iron.

 

THE ROD OF IRON IS KINGDOM OF GOD

What is the rod of iron? The rod of iron is also the kingdom of God, which is the final message. He will rule them with the final message, the Kingdom of God. The verse continues from Matthew 21: 44

��Whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder� (Matt. 21:44)

That is the rod of iron! In other words, the message will prevail over all other messages, which is the establishment of the true message of Jesus Christ (s) the kingdom of God on earth, Islam. Allah (s) said:

�It is He (God Almighty) who has sent His Messenger [Muhamed (S)] with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) that He may make it prevail over all religions and enough is Allah for a witness.�  (Quran 48:28)

You see that? It shows how the Christian�s commentators does twist the scriptures to fit Yesus (Jesus) pbuh.


Br. Zainool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthnowcome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2017 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Please note my post pointedly said, "reported crucifixion" and not "crucifixion" in respect of the Qu'ran.

Revelation was written after the reports of Jesus' crucifixion.



You will not get it on any report because it was conceal by those who remove the Aramaic scriptures and give a compilation of Greek translation with concoction. 

I will give you an example: The make an ANGEL JESUS (S). Follow this link:

ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN AND NOT THE SON OF MAN

http://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39403


A very important point to note: God �gives� unto him to �show� unto his servant�s things, which must shortly come to pass, and what he did? Verse 1 mentioned: ��and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his ANGEL unto his servant John.�

 

 Jesus (S) did not come but he �sent and signified it with an ANGEL unto John� and whom John saw?

 

It stated in Rev. 1:12-13:

 

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.� (Rev. 1:12-13)

 �One like unto the Son of man� And not the son of man! It was that �Angel� who was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was conformed in Rev. 22:8-9:

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for �I am� thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet� �WORSHIP GOD� (Rev. 22:8-9)


 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

Does angel dies?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2017 at 7:46pm
Mohamad in Revelation 12 ? Nope !
The book of Revelation is a vision from Jesus Christ, given to Him by God the Father, which reveals what is going to happen before His return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This fascinating book is primarily written in a chronological style with occasional breaks for overviews of specific subjects. Revelation 12 is one of these overviews, providing a history stretching from the time before humans existed until the time just before Christ�s return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 12 begins with the statement: �Now a great sign appeared in heaven� (verse 1). The word �sign� comes from the Greek word semeion, meaning �a sign, mark, token � an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature� (Thayer�s Greek Definitions). The first great sign is a vision of a woman who gave birth to a child (verse 1).

Then in verse 3 we read, �And another sign [semeion] appeared in heaven.� We thus understand that these three symbols�a woman, a child and a dragon�represent things beyond the ordinary events of nature. As we are going to see, these three figures symbolize three major spiritual forces that have been at work for several thousand years.

In order to understand this chapter, we now need to understand the symbols. What do the woman, the child and the dragon represent?

The woman

The woman�described as being �clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars� (verse 1)�represents Old Testament Israel. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman whom He had dressed in honor and splendor (Ezekiel 16). The garland with 12 stars may be symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10).

Throughout Revelation 12 we note that the �woman� is repeatedly protected by God (verses 6, 14-16), especially as the time approaches for the �kingdom of our God� to be established on earth (verse 10).

In the New Testament, God�s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are likened to virgins (Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7). The New Testament Church is called �the Israel of God� (Galatians 6:16) and likened to �Jerusalem above,� which is called �the mother of us all� (Galatians 4:26, also see Hebrews 12:22-23). Members of the Church are described as �a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His [God�s] own special people� (1 Peter 2:9).

When Christ returns to earth, He is going to marry the Church, which is called �His wife� in Revelation 19:7. Based on these passages, it is clear that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God�s people. Incidentally, it is also interesting to note that the imagery of a dishonorable woman�one called �the great harlot��is used in Revelation 17:1 to depict a false church that deceives many.

The Child

The woman (God�s chosen nation of Israel) is described as giving birth to a �male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron� (Revelation 12:5). Indeed, Christ was born into this nation. The verse continues, �And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.� The language here makes it clear that Jesus is the �Child.�

Jesus is the One who is prophesied to �strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron� (Revelation 19:15). He is also the One who, after His resurrection, was taken up in a cloud to heaven (Acts 1:9-11).

The dragon

The third symbol of Revelation 12��a great, fiery red dragon� (verse 3)�is described as having drawn �a third of the stars of heaven� and standing �before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born� (verse 4). A few verses later, this dragon is clearly identified as Satan: �So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world� (verse 9).

As for the dragon drawing �a third of the stars of heaven,� this reference apparently represents Satan leading a third of the angels in a rebellion against God. Other passages show stars represent angels (Revelation 1:20).

The Bible also explains that Satan had been involved in a rebellion against God in which he attempted to exalt his �throne above the stars of God� and �be like the Most High� (Isaiah 14:13-14). Satan then began his work as �that serpent of old [the one who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world� (Revelation 12:9, emphasis added throughout). For a more extensive explanation of Satan�s rebellion, see �God vs. Satan.�

Just as God has ministers of righteousness, Satan has his �ministers��spirit beings who appear to be righteous yet who influence humans to sin (2 Corinthians 11:15). Jude further describes these fallen angels or demons as �angels who did not keep their proper domain� and who are now �reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day� (Jude 1:6).

Revelation 12:3-17 is a concise history of Satan�s efforts to thwart God�s plan to bring many humans to glory as part of His eternal family. Satan�s actions included convincing a third of the angels to follow him in his attempt to make himself like God, attempting to have Christ killed as a child (Matthew 2:13-18), working to deceive the entire world and persecuting God�s people. Let�s now consider in greater detail Satan�s attempts to derail God�s plan.

The dragon vs. the Child

In Revelation 12:4 we read that �the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.� This appears to be a historical reference to King Herod�s effort to destroy Jesus as a young child by ordering the deaths of all male children from two years old and under who lived in and around Bethlehem (Matthew 2:13-18). But an angel had warned Joseph to flee to Egypt with his wife and Jesus to keep the Child from being destroyed (verse 13).

Even though Satan�s attempt to destroy Jesus when He was a child failed, the devil did not give up. Prior to the beginning of Jesus� ministry, �Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil� (Matthew 4:1). During this temptation, Satan tried to get Jesus to violate God�s law and worship him instead of God. The devil offered Jesus �all the kingdoms of the world and their glory� (verse 8) if Jesus would worship him. But Jesus did not do so.

When Jesus� ministry was fulfilled and it was time for Him to give His life as payment for humanity�s sins, Satan was there once again. On this occasion, Satan was the one who �put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon�s son, to betray Him� (John 13:2). Although Satan was clearly involved in the crucifixion of Jesus, this was actually part of God�s plan for the redemption of mankind.

As Genesis 3:15 had predicted, there would be ongoing �enmity� between the serpent (Satan) and the woman (God�s people) and the �Seed� (Jesus) who would come from the woman. Furthermore, this passage indicated that Satan would have limited success in being able to �bruise� Christ�s heel by influencing the man who would betray Jesus and that Jesus would �bruise� Satan�s head by resisting his temptations and qualifying to replace him as the ruler of this world.

So why did Satan expend so much effort in his attempts to destroy Jesus? Because if there had not been a perfect Savior to pay the penalty for humanity�s sins, God�s plan would have been thwarted. Without a Savior, humans could not be forgiven of their sins nor could they live forever in God�s eternal family.

The dragon vs. God�s people

In addition to his efforts to destroy Jesus, Satan has a long history of persecuting God�s people, especially members of God�s Church, represented by the woman in the latter portions of Revelation 12. Although there was fierce persecution from the earliest days of the New Testament Church, God allowed the woman to flee �into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days� (verse 6).





This verse indicates that the true Church was protected by God for 1,260 years (see Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, showing that a day can represent a year). During this time�which may have continued through the Middle Ages�the Church was protected from its enemies, including the Roman Empire and false Christianity.

The next two verses then explain that �war broke out in heaven� between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. As a result of this war, John, in vision, saw that a place for Satan and his angels was not �found for them in heaven any longer� and they were �cast to the earth� (Revelation 12:7-9). This battle is different from Satan�s original rebellion, which is described in verse 4 and which occurred long before the birth of Christ.

The setting for this battle, described in verses 7-9, and its significance is then announced by a loud voice in heaven (verses 10-12). This battle is an indicator that �the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have [or will soon] come� (verse 10). Prior to this event, Satan has had access to God�s presence to accuse His people (Job 1:6-7; Job 2:1-2). Now he and his angels no longer have this access and are cast down to the earth.

Realizing the significance of this event, Satan now has �great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time� (Revelation 12:12) before Christ returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. He then directs his rage toward God�s people, the ones who are the continuation of the woman who gave birth to the male Child (verse 13).

God, however, will not allow Satan to destroy His people. Jesus had promised that the �gates of Hades [the grave]� would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). To protect His people, the woman is �given two wings of a great eagle,� meaning she is safely taken into �her place,� where she will be protected for �a time, and times and half a time [apparently 3� years], from the presence of the serpent� (Revelation 12:14).

Even though Satan will spew �water out of his mouth like a flood,� to try to get at the woman, he will not be successful (verses 15-16). In this passage, the concept of a �flood� likely represents armies (see Isaiah 59:19; Jeremiah 46:7-8).

Satan then goes to �make war with the rest of her [the woman�s] offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ� (Revelation 12:17). From this passage we note that while some members of God�s true Church will be protected from Satan�s wrath during these end times prior to Christ�s return, others will not. Those not in the place of protection will need to prove their allegiance to God the Father and Christ in the face of Satan�s intense persecution.

The dragon vs. you

Whether you realize it or not, Satan also hates you and will do everything possible to keep you from loving and obeying your Creator. His anger is not just against Jesus and the Church. Why is he angry at you? Apparently, because he realizes that humans were created by God with the potential to be higher than he was (Hebrews 2:6-8).

Because of his sick, twisted and unsound thinking, Satan has taken on the role of being an adversary against those seeking to love and obey their Father in heaven. Writing to the people of God, Peter cautioned, �Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour� (1 Peter 5:8).

In communicating with the brethren in Corinth, Paul described the true gospel as being �veiled� or hidden because of Satan, �the god of this age,� who had blinded the minds of unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3-4). The good news is that this �veil is taken away in Christ� (2 Corinthians 3:14).
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Please note my post pointedly said, "reported crucifixion" and not "crucifixion" in respect of the Qu'ran.

Revelation was written after the reports of Jesus' crucifixion.



Edited by DavidC - 03 June 2017 at 6:50am
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Even the supposed Jesus they did not kill as you read on:

Jesus said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God. ( John 20:16-17 KJV)

 Remember he told the disciples:

�A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� (John 16:16)

 And Christians understand it to mean that, he will die and resurrect; But the suppose Jesus is telling Mary he did not go to the father (died) as yet but go and tell them he did, �I ascend � all ready died.  But the Devil is quick to draw the vial over your eyes in changing �I ascend� to �I will go�, I am returning. See other translations and compare it with the KJV

Allah (S) said:

For of a surety they killed him not. (Q. 4:157)

Now, please don�t tell me that he was going up in the sky because he was speaking to Mary on the earth and he said, �Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father.� He was just there in front of her.  

 Paul testified that Jesus (S) did not die:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

 To what extend he prayed? He said:

��My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.� (Matt. 26:28-29)

  Also in Luke 22:44

�And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground. Luke 22:44

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

The angel assured him that God Almighty has answered his prayers:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)

You see that! Paul knew, that why he confessed:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

He knew the truth, he confesses that he lied!

He said: �If the truth of God is more abundant in my lies why should I call a sinner?�

In other words, if he tells some lies to bring people to God he should no call a sinner.

 

  Is God a curse? It mentioned in Galatians 3:13 and Deut. 21: 22-23:

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3: 13)

22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (Deut. 21: 22-23)

 

Even some of the Jews knew that he didn�t died, but what they did not know is that, he was the suppose Jesus the gardener. Read for yourself:

62�Now the next day� the chief priest and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: So the LAST ERROR SHALL BE WORSE THAN THE FIRST (Matt.27:62-64

  They are talking about FIRST ERROR and LAST ERROR. What is the first error? They knew that they didn�t kill the suppose Jesus.

  Jesus, interestingly, told the Pharisees too:

�go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice� [Matthew 9:13].

 We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a righteous and a pious man and the O.T. says that the wicked will take his place: �In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16],

 

"The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, And the treacherous is in the place of the upright� [Proverbs 21:18],

 

and "The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8].

Who say that? The God of theof the Jews!

  Last point, what is a resurrected body? Let Jesus tells us:

��For they are equal unto the angels,� Luke 20:27-27

 Meaning, that they will be angelised, they will be spiritualized, they will be Spirit! As to regards the suppose Jesus:

�Behold my hand and feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see: for a SPIRIT has no flesh and bone, as you see me have. (Luke 24:39-40)

If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain. (I Corinthians 15:14)

  Is the crucifixion true or doubtful? The Qur�an says, �It is doubt full with no certain knowledge� Why Mary didn�t recognize him, neither the disciples? Even when Judas and his band of men didn�t recognize him when they went to capture him, why? Because it was not him (it was doubt full)! I would not put my soul in something that is �doubt full!�

 And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah�:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. (Q. 4:157)

  Br. zainool
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AFTER THE SUPPOSE CRUCIFIXION:

And when she (Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener... (John 20:14-15)

  Mary knew Jesus (S) all through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it another man �the gardener� God Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s) now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even the disciples did not know him:

��But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.� John 21:4

Why? Because it was not him! Qur�an conforms that:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture� (Q.4:157)

   Mary didn�t recognize him nether the Disciples. As the Qur�an rightly said: �There are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge�

Behold! Allah said: �O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55)

  The question is when did it happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see Matt.26:40) and that is where they laid hold on him (the supposed Jesus the Gardiner) Matt.26:57. May be, Allah (S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace him with another man �the gardener� who Mary recognizes as. 

  Allah (S) said:

�And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planner is Allah! (Q.3:54)

   To be more certain it is not Jesus (S) we can look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him:

   It is mentioned in John 18:1-8

V1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a �GARDEN,� into which he entered, and his disciples.

V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

V.4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?

V.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, the went backward, and fell on the ground.

V.7 Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

V.8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.

  There you can see how Christians miss the boat. They did see that his enemy didn�t �recognize� the man to be Jesus (S).

 They were asking for Jesus of Nazareth, Why? Because he was not there! V.4 says that: �Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?�  Think about it, Jesus was asking them �whom seek ye?� and what they said? V.5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.� why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus �the gardener� according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: �I am he�. And what happen after that? V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn�t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted �Jesus of Nazareth� why again? Because they didn�t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted �I am he,� and in V. 8 he said: �I have told you that I am he more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S), and also where they caught him? In the �garden,� and what Mary said? �She supposes him to be the gardener.� Coincident!

 You see! He look like a �gardener� and was caught in the �garden�, And they didn�t �recognize� him. It was not him!

 

I've established that:

 

1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

3- And also when Judas and his band went to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why?

4- They captured him in the GARDEN,

5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER.

 And Allah (S) said:

�That the rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.� (Q.4:156-159)


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Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Notes: Revelation was written by John of Patmos many years after Jesus' reported crucifixion.


Allah (S) said in the Qur�an:

And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah�:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157)

 So He Allah (S) instructed the Prophet (S) to say:

Say: �Produce your proof if ye speak the truth��. (Q.2:111)

I will examine the proof.  In the N.T. in John 16:16 (KJV) Jesus (s) told his disciples:

 

A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.John 16:16 (KJV)

In the �New International Version� they remove part of the verse �because I go to the Father�

"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." John16 

 You see that! They remove this last part of the verse because I go to the Father. WHY? They knew the implication that is why they removed it! �going to the father� Christians understand it to mean �the death and resurrection�.

Let us read it in context, Jesus (S) said:

��A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� John 16 (KJV)  
 

Then some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant:

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, �Because I go to the Father?�
 18They said therefore, �What is this that he saith� A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

Now, Jesus (S) explained: 

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, �A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?�

 In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean �the death and resurrection�. So, when he said:Because I go to the Father� that is referring to his death. It read as follows:

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.  

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Which �hour� he is talking? The �hour� of �going to the Father�

  In that chapter, Christians understand �Because I go to the Father� to mean �the death and resurrection�. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign that was promised to the Jews when he said:

�For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale�s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth�. Matt.12:40

Did Jonas die in the wale belly? No! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation.

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. Matt.26:35-39

Notice, he fell on his face and PRAYING to his God asking him to change the situation? Yes! And what happen next? His God send an angel to help him.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

Another point he said: �My soul� and not �flesh�, not his human side �flesh� but his spiritual side �soul.� His soul was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, he fears death. Which God will fear death? According to the writings of the bible, The Father God was in him and with him in the same John 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am �not alone,� because the Father is �with me�. (John 16: 32)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10) 

If the Father is �with him and in him�, what is the purpose of �sending an angel?� Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) has to say because all the disciples fled from the scene.

And they all forsook him and fled. (Mark 14:50)



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