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Crucifixion of Jesus |
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Caringheart 
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 Posted: 02 October 2014 at 6:08pm |
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Greetings islamispeace,
The problem that we have here, is that the word kaari is not the word used in either instance In Psalm 22 the word used is karah and in Isaiah 38 the word used is ariy put them together and you might get the word kaari but this is not the word used in either (let alone both) of the scriptures which we are addressing. I looked the passages up in the scriptures, that is why I provided their reference numbers for the Hebrew concordance, for the words in question. If I had more time available to me I would like to do more research by contacting a Jewish scholar source as I have done in the past, and asking some questions. You seem to have alot of time on your hands. I'd be interested in what you might learn. asalaam, CH chabad.org has this as their translation from the Hebrew... but it makes no sense as written... it reads as if something is missing 17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. Taken as is though, you have to ask yourself... what would a lion do with the hands and the feet... what would a lion do to any part of the body... he would pierce them... and why are the hands and feet specifically mentioned? jewishvirtuallibrary.org has this; 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Edited by Caringheart - 02 October 2014 at 7:07pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
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Posted: 02 October 2014 at 8:08pm |
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Oh for the love of God... You are confusing what Strong's Concordance says about the root of the word used in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 38, what the actual Hebrew says. Strong's claims the roots are different, yet that is impossible given that the word used is the same, and that word is "kaari". You asked that since I have "alot of time" on my hands, I could ask a "Jewish scholar" about this issue. But I have already done that! I provided a Jewish scholar's explanation, which you have consistently tried to ignore. Anyway, here is the Hebrew from Psalm 22:16- כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי And here is the Hebrew from Isaiah 38:13 - שִׁוִּיתִי עַד בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי See? It's the same exact word. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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kometa2
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Posted: 03 October 2014 at 5:00am |
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Psalm 22 is simply a Psalm whcih prophecies the death of Jesus on the cross! and all those events predicted in the Psalm 22 manifested themselves in the Person of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled those prophecies.
Plus: As I showed above no muslim CAN deny that the Bible is true and they
CANNOT say that the Bible was corrupted becauseit is Allah himself and
Muhammad who say the Bible is true. And the Bible says Jesus died on the cross. Even
the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named
Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the
reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius
Pilate and continued to have followers after his death (Luke Timothy Johnson, The Real Jesus (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123. SO
there is no point in denying the truth and the fact that Jesus did die
on the cross. And not only that but He also was raised from the dead.
And the Gospels and book of Acts are
eyewitness accounts of the life and death of Jesus. So if Jesus died on
the cross and was raised fro the dead by His Father then why try to
earn somethig that was given by Him for free? Jesus alreay
provided the free giftof salvation by His sacrifice on the cross instead
of every human being. He died so that we can live, He suffered so that
we can become children of God and be reconciled to the Father who is now
our Father too! God is love and He draws us to Himself by His goodness! |
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Caringheart
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Posted: 03 October 2014 at 10:24am |
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Greetings islamispeace,
You have provided one source. What I meant was taking the time to search out for discussion, a person knowing the Hebrew. or at the very least searching many sources, which is what I have been doing. So let us return ... if we go with the word in discussion meaning 'like a lion'... this fits with 738 - ariy - from arah(in the sense of violence); a lion:(young) lion + pierce(from the margin) as a lion Do you notice where it says; a lion:(young) lion + pierce(from the margin) So even here it is used in the sense of meaning 'to be pierced', as far as I can see I go back to my original question... How does, 'like a lion my hands and my feet', make any sense? It doesn't. and again, why mention the hands and the feet? they bite my hands and feet like a lion"--Psalm 22:17 Targum translation What would you suppose this to mean? Like a lion, my hands and feet.--Psalm 22:16b (Masoretic translation) Taken as is, you have to ask yourself... what would a lion do with the hands and the feet... what would a lion do to any part of the body... What meaning were they trying to convey? We can see here a difference as well, in the rendering of this word; כארי ידי ורגלי --Psalm 22:16 (Masoretic Text with vowels removed) Like a lion, my hands and feet.--Psalm 22:16b (Masoretic translation) כָּרַע שָׁכַב כַּאֲרִי וּכְלָבִיא, מִי יְקִימֶנּוּ--Numbers 24:9 (Masoretic text) He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a lioness; who shall rouse him up?--Numbers 24:9 שִׁוִּיתִי עַד-בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי, כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי--Isaiah 38:13 (Masoretic text) The more I make myself like unto a lion until morning, the more it breaketh all my bones;--Isaiah 38:13 Here is one explanation, The Hebrew term kaaru means: �they have pierced.� The Hebrew term kaari means: �like a lion.� The two Hebrew terms are identical except for the fact that kaaru ends with the Hebrew letter vav, and kaari ends with the Hebrew letter yod. Vav and yod are essentially alike except for the fact that vav has a long �tail� on its end. Yod does not. (Read Hebrew right to left.) It�s quite likely that at some point a scribe, tediously copying Hebrew text, inadvertently or otherwise, failed to attach that longer, vertical, descending line to the vav, thus rendering the vav a yod. This changed the meaning of the Massoretic Text, or standard text, which is the basis for the Jewish Bible. Apparently this is a matter in question that has been going on for 100 years or more.  Dead Sea scrolls The Hebrew word has כארו (they dug), though an unusual spelling not found else where, instead of the word in the כארי (lion)... The only difference between the two words, as can be seen in the fragment, is that the yod, is smaller than the vav, Kaaru has a "vav" and Kari has a "yod," so an error could have happened with either making the letter too short, or too long. I sum up by saying: What meaning was meant to be conveyed? something to do with the hands and the feet... and the ferocity of the lion. (lion and lamb.... ?) asalaam, CH Edited by Caringheart - 03 October 2014 at 10:36am |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
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Posted: 03 October 2014 at 7:29pm |
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The source I provided was an article written by a Rabbi. I am pretty sure he knows Hebrew. As for the sources you have been "searching", I will wager that most, if not all, are Christian sources. You haven't provided any links or reference material.
The source I quoted provided the following translation, which makes perfect sense to me: "For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet." This is simply a metaphor that the psalmist was using to describe how his enemies were all around him. Referring to the "hands and feet" illustrates this point. In fact, the Jewish commentator Rashi explained it as the following (using Isaiah 38:13 as a reference point): "...like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion�s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): �like a lion, so it would break all my bones.�"
Well, what does it sound like? It's a metaphor for the violence of the psalmist's enemies. They mean to do him harm.
That the psalmist is worried about his enemies doing him harm, and so he prays to his Lord to "deliver me from the sword". I don't see what is so hard to understand.
I don't know what your point is here. Psalm 22:16 and Isaiah 38:13 are exactly the same, even in the Masoretic text. You can check for yourself here: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1038.htm There is a slight difference in the vowel markings in Numbers 24:9, which is why the verse is translated as: "He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a lioness; who shall rouse him up? Blessed be every one that blesseth thee, and cursed be every one that curseth thee." While Psalm 22:16 and Isaiah 38:13 are translated as "like a lion" or "like unto a lion", Numbers 24:9 is translated simply as "as a lion". Also, the vowel markings were only added later anyway. The original Hebrew would not have had them. As one source explains: "Remember that Hebrew is read from right to left and in its original Biblical form is purely consonantal-the vowel points were added by later scribes (probably around 700 CE)."
I am way ahead of you on this. I already checked out a few Christian sources and the various explanations they try to come up with, and this was one of them. Ironically, the Jewish source I originally provided dealt with this issue. I don't know why you don't want to read it. You would save yourself a lot of time. It states: "Transforming kaari (כָּאֲרִי) into kaaru (כָּאֲרוּ) by changing the letters kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י), which means �like a lion,� into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), vav (ו) does not create the Hebrew word for �pierced,� as Rosen argues. In fact, kaaru doesn�t mean anything. In other words, this word kaaru does not exist in the Hebrew language; it�s little more than Semitic gibberish. Rosen�s claim that some anonymous scribe may have inadvertently changed kaaru into kaari is wholly unfounded and completely untenable. In order to concoct a word that resembles kaaru, you would not only have to change the letter yod into a vav, but the letter alef would have to be removed altogether. This alteration would create the three-letter word karu (כָּרוּ),spelled kaf, raish, vav. Karu, however, does not mean �pierced� either. It means to �excavate� or �dig.�" Also, the source says clearly what the actual Hebrew word for"pierce" is: "As mentioned, the words used in Tanach for �pierce� or �stab� are daqar
or ratza, never karu, which does not have the connotation of �piercing� �
as in puncturing flesh."
Only because Christians decided to try to manipulate the text in order to "prove" that the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in the Tanakh. But as has been pointed out by the website "Pascal's Wager", none of the New Testament authors saw fit to use this verse as a "prophecy": "One of the strongest arguments against the verse Psalm 22:16b being a prophecy of the crucifixion is the fact that none of the New Testament authors made any reference to it. This is extremely surprising if the Hebrew or the Greek of that verse was understood as "they pierce"..." It was only later Christians who appealed to this verse.
Again, if you had bothered to read the Jewish source I provided, you wouldn't be wasting time making these inaccurate statements. It already dealt with this issue and even provided a digital photograph of the scroll from Nahal Hever. It states: "Bear in mind that the Nahal Hever manuscripts are considerably younger than the Dead Sea Scrolls. While the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts predate the first Jewish War (66 CE), the manuscripts from Nahal Hever came from a later period; between the two Jewish Wars (between 70 CE and 135 CE). Despite the claims made by Professor Flint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, the passage in 5/6HevPs does not �unambiguously read pierced.�
The above image was digitally enhanced, and it is difficult to
discern by studying the faint, ancient text whether the word in question
ends in a elongated י (yud) or a shortened ו (vav). Unlike other
ancient texts, the writing on this script found at Nahal Hever is not
sharp or uniform. If, for argument�s sake, we conclude that the debated
word written in the Nahal Hever script is כארו (ka�aru), as Rosen and
Flint argue, it is obvious that this anomaly is the result of the
scribe�s poor handwriting or spelling mistake. There is clear evidence,
in fact, from an obvious spelling mistake in the script itself that the
second century scribe was not meticulous. The very next word after the
debated word is �my hands.� The Hebrew word in Psalm 22:17 is
ידי (yadai). The Nahal Hever scribe, however, misspelled this word [as
well][/as] by placing an extra letter ה (hey) at the end of the word.
Thus, the Nahal Hever 5/6HevPs reads ידיה instead of the correct ידי.
The Hebrew word ידיה (yadehah) means �her hands,� not �my hands.�"
Lions eat many things, not just lambs. You are simply reaching, trying to make a connection when there is none. If the psalm was meant to be a "prophecy" about the Messiah's crucifixion, it could have stated it plainly. Yet, we find that it neither mentions the Messiah nor even suggests his death on a cross. The only thing the psalm states is for God to deliver the speaker from his enemies. Edited by islamispeace - 03 October 2014 at 7:35pm |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
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Posted: 03 October 2014 at 8:25pm |
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Greetings islamispeace,
Regarding your opening statement... Not at all. I read(not past tense) all the Jewish arguments as well. This is how I came to try and understand this word kaari, though it is neither of the words referenced in the Strong's concordance. You should not make assumptions. I always try to take a two-sided view of things. As my signature says; Let us seek Truth together. Now, if you have used only this one source, then you have not read far enough, because if you did you would find that the words 'they are at', have been added to try and make a nonsensical verse make sense. "...like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion�s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): �like a lion, so it would break all my bones.�" Precisely. Would a lion merely 'bite the hands and feet'? Do you think this is what the Romans observed when they fed Christians to the lions for public spectacle? I think a lion would care nothing for the hands and the feet but would crush and maul the whole body in its grasp. Have you ever seen a lion hunt? So I think there was a larger meaning meant to be conveyed. You don't have to accept it. As I said, I read many sources, including the one you provided, plus many others. The arguments all differ. The one you provided is not unbiased any more than the others are. We must remember that the Jew has a stake in disproving the claim to prophesy, even while the Christian has a stake in claiming the prophesy. There are many translations and many attempts at explanation. We each accept what we accept. I believe only Christ will have the answer. There is no question that Yshwe had His hands and His feet 'pierced', or bore through with nails. The meaning of the Psalm we will not know until we meet with the Messiah. It says enough for me. asalaam, CH |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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kometa2
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Posted: 06 October 2014 at 12:49am |
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Psalm is a prophecy about Jesus. If you read
through this Psalm you will discover some amazing prophecies about the
crucifixion of Jesus.
This opening line are the exact words that Jesus uses when He is suffering on the cross a thousand years later (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34). He is crying out because of the separation that existed between Him and His father as He was being punished for the sins of all mankind.
Verses seven and eight describe the humiliation that he was subjected to while He was publicly suffering. Many who were standing by mocked him, challenging him to save himself saying �He saved others, let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God� (Luke 23:35). Verse 15 describes Him as being thirsty. Indeed, when Jesus was on the cross, He cried out in a loud voice: �I thirst� (John 19:28). Verse 16 predicts what the Roman soldiers would do to Jesus� hands and feet:
This perfectly describes Jesus� crucifixion, when the soldiers drove nails through His hands and His feet (John 20:25). Verse 17, the next verse, predicts Jesus naked as He is stretched on the cross:
Verse 18 predicts what the soldiers would do with Jesus� clothes:
We can see the fulfillment of verse 18 in the gospel of John:
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Caringheart
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Posted: 03 December 2014 at 4:58pm |
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Assalamu Alaikum and my respects,
muslims - you're missing the message, and your thinking is like the Romans of the time... they believed that by crucifying Yshwe they would prove that He was no Messiah... because no one would believe that the Messiah could be killed... they would naturally believe that Messiah would save Himself... this leads me to another thought... if the Messiah is believed to have these powers, then why does anyone deny that He is also God, or Son of God, One having the power of God? The message of Yshwe was in the resurrection... it was in the way Yshwe gave His life for us. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. the Word of Yshwe asalaam and blessings. Yshwe is the One that is expected, by both muslims and Christians, to return and judge the world... why would you not believe He is what He says He is... Son of God, One with God? Edited by Caringheart - 04 December 2014 at 12:32am |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart wrote:
