Crucifixion of Jesus
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31680
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Topic: Crucifixion of Jesus
Posted By: kometa2
Subject: Crucifixion of Jesus
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 1:20am
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I attended a secular school and I was taught at hitory class that Jesus died on tje Cross. Because cricifixionof Jesus is a historical FACT, it is historical event. So why does islam deny what really happened and what Jesus predicted in His teachings to his desciples- many times speaking and foretelling His deah on the Cross and telling His desciples He wil be raied from the dead. |
Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 9:04pm
Please read the following: http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-crucifixion-of-jesus-in-bible-and.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-crucifixion-of-jesus-in-bible-and.html In this article, I analyzed the story of the crucifixion. I also show that the Quran merely denies that Jesus was the one who was crucified. The Quran does not a deny that a crucifixion occurred and that the enemies of Jesus did boast that they had killed him. Rather, the Quran states that God saved Jesus and raised to Himself. I don't why Christians have such a hard time understanding this. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
kometa2 wrote:Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 9:26pm
the Bible states that God gave the one known to us as His Son(Yshwe) to die for us and later raised Him to Himself. I don't why muslims have such a hard time understanding this.  The name Yshwe means, YHWH saves Yshwe gave His will to God ('nevertheless Lord, not My will but Yours be done') and gave His life ('into Your hands I commend My Spirit') and on the third day was raised from dead to walk again on the earth, as witnessed by many and after 40 days with them was raised before their eyes up to the Father. from the book recorded by Luke: 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. from the book of the Acts of the Apostles: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 1:05am
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There is no greater truth in all the world � God Loves People! We read from the Word of God in John 3:16 the following precious words: �For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.� What a wonderful truth!!! The verse doesn't say that the great heart of God only loves Christians or religious people. The verse doesn't say that God only loves righteous people or churchgoers. The verse doesn't say that God only loves Bible-thumpers. The Word of God is clear that God loves �the world� (and that includes everyone). No matter who you are, God truly loves you.
Jesus died on the cross for all humanity, because God loves the whole world. This means that God loves the murderer. This means that God loves the adulterer. This means that God loves the homosexual. This means that God loves the crooked politician and the corrupt banker. This means that God loves the vilest sinner and the worst criminal. This means God even loves you. This means that God loves the Pope. Yes, God loves people! God loves all people, of all faiths, and all backgrounds.
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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 6:28am
 Oh I don't know...maybe it's because the Bible contradicts itself on the matter? Why would I believe an extraordinary story when the ones telling it cannot even agree amongst each other? Your so-called "witnesses" offered contradictory testimony, as I show in my article. Not only that, but the so-called "eyewitness" accounts are written by anonymous people. Even a child would know better than to blindly accept the ramblings of such people. I guess you don't qualify.  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 11:36am
Even a child would know better than to blindly accept the ramblings of a single man with no witnesses. I guess you don't qualify. I accept as much more credible, the testimony of many witnesses, told to many people, and in many places, eventually written down in many places, and yet tell the same story, over the words of one man who says he had a vision in a cave to which there were no witnesses... and one whose own words and actions often change and contradict themselves. I can understand why many people might tell a story slightly different, yet with the same underlying message... but a man who contradicts his own self while claiming to be speaking with the words of God? asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 11:55am
No, no, dear. There is no "contradiction" in the message of Islam. Unlike your Bible, which has contradictions on almost every page, the Quran is consistent. Your so-called "witnesses" contradicted each other even in terms of the "message". The Gospels exhibit a gradual deification of Jesus. From Mark to John, Jesus is transformed from a man into a god. Then there is the contradiction between the Gospels on whether Jesus was sent to the Jews or to the Gentiles. The Gospels can't even agree on that! ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 8:04pm
We have actually been discussing this on other thread. You claim that God "loves" all people, but if that were true, then no one would go to hell to burn therein for eternity. And if God really loved us, why would He send His son to die for our sins? Why didn't He come Himself? If I loved someone, I wouldn't send my son to show my love. I would go myself to the person I love. And if you say that the "son" was "God", then you are saying that "God" sent "Himself". From there, you fall into an unending maze of circular logic. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 9:12pm
Greetings islamispeace, You must learn to think with more than the human mind.  You see God did come Himself.... I think what you don't understand is, the concept of the word 'Son', was a way to denote God in the flesh... He came to us in the form of flesh... as a part of Himself... as a 'Son'. He could not come to us any other way. He could not come to us as Himself. Exodus 33:18-23 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Have you considered that the Creator is a form of energy which is too great for us to endure the exposure to? Have you considered that Yshwe, Son of God, born of woman, was the only way that He could come to us in a way that we could finally relate to Him? In a way that we could understand and follow Him.. to walk with Him? People had only been able to experience God while His glory was veiled in some way. When He appeared on Mount Sinai, He was veiled in a thick cloud. When He appeared to Moses, He allowed Moses to look only on his back parts. Men might see some sort of appearance of God, but he cannot look upon God in the fullness of His glory. So He came to us in the form of the flesh... as the Son... still a veiled form and not in His fullness of glory. and yet, 'even if one were to rise from the dead, still you would not believe' 31 And He said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (the words of Yshwe) Who are we to question God and His ways? I have suggested before... every muslim needs to read the book of Job. Job 38 - Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who s*****p the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? 12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; .... Job 39 continues.... - Job 40 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 6 Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? 9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. 14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. .... - Job 42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Peace and blessings to you, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:35am
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God is love and He DID provide salvation for ALL people to be saved. He gave Himself instead of us, He died so that we can live. He suffered so that we can be whole. He was the ransome in our place. Nobody HAS TO go to hell. All they need to do is to CHOOSE Jesus as their Lord and Savior and RECEIVE the FREE gift of salvation. Salvationis a done deal. It is a gift. Nobody can or has to deserve a gift. Jesus saved us 2000 years AGO when we did not even exist. He died on the cross to save us. He died for us before we ever did anything good or bad. So only those who REJECT salvation go to hell. But they dont have to go there. It is their choice to do that. But God provided salvation for all mankind. He proved His love for us. Love is practical, sacrificial or it is only a word on paper which does not cost a thing and is worthless. Jesus came to the earth to die for us and instead of us because HE wanted it. Nobody can force God to do something He does not want. He is ALMIGHTY or He is no God at all. He did it for us OUT OF LOVE. Yes, God decided to come to th earth. God is ONE and He is Triune. He came in the Person of Jesus. To die in our place. Every miracle God makes defies logic. Miracle is a suspense of logic and of natural laws and yet the very NATURE of God is the nature of power and miracles. If He does not show it He is no God at all. The Bible God always made miracles to prove His word and that He is true and always had contact with pople. Otherwise He would be only a dead religion but He is not. He is real and has relationship with people He created for Himself. |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:55am
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The Bible is given to us by Jesuswho is sinless and never lied. The Bible is proved by archeology, scienceand history. The Bible is confirmed by what those who believe in it EXPERIENCE. For example: the Bible talks about supernatural gift of speking a prayer tounge which we never learned. It is a gift from God, supernatural gift. The apostles spoek in tongues and it was a sign to the world. We also speak in tongues becuse God is always a God of miracles. Otherwise He would be just a dead religion but the true God is a real Person who always had and has contact with people and who always proved His word by power by miracles by signs and wonders. Of course we should not believe ramblings of people whose life was evil and immoral. That is why we can believe every single word Jesus said. Because He never lied, never sinned and He said I am THE Truth. So there is no truth but in Jesus alone. Especially that Jesus proved what He said by miracles and by pure holy life. The Bible is a prophetic Book! God says that He will use prophecy to prove He is real and to prove the Bible is His Word. (Isa 46:9-10) God says what will happen before it happens because He knows the end from the beginning. 2/3 out of about 2000 Bible prophecies are already fulfilled! History shows facts not emotions. Facts are facts. There are witnesses and records. Otherwise it is no fact. There were more witnesses to resurrection of Jesus than to many other historical figures and archeologists discover more and more manuscripts which prove and confirm what the Bible said and what Jesus said. Not only did Jesus say He came to die on the cross but the old testament prophecies about it and also history confirms it and there were witnesses to it. But the main proof is what Jesus Himself said. Sinless Jesus who never lied. |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:57am
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Can you show me where the witnesses contradict one another? Only then your argument may be considered as a true and valid one.Otherwise it is only a personal opinion, an assumption or in the worst case falsehood. |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:11am
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God is NOT a schizophrenic. 600 years before Muhammad Jesus came and said who He is (God) and said what He came to do (die on the cross for huanity to save and redeem us) and He taught us to love our enemies, to treat others as we want to be traeted, He taught on monogmous marriage, He told His desciples to respect one another, to serve one another, to esteem others as above themselves, to live a humble life. He made people God's children. So 600 years later He could not change His mind and say: no, you are not my children but slaves. You are not saved any more, you have to save yourself with good works, you may have more wives and on and on. Especially that God alrady said in the Bible that nobody can add even a word to the completed message of the Bible and completed message of the Bible. Jesus already fulfilled the whole will of the Father. He reconciled people with the Father, he madu us children of God and we have now direct access to the throne of God. We are now prophets, kings and priests who have direct intimate and personal relationship with God! We already have everything because of what Jesus did on the cross. And we now have the same power Jesus had because God Himself lives in us and enables us to live a pure moral life. Without Him living on the inside of us nobody can live a pure life. That is impossible. Only holy God empowers us to that. |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:18am
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In modern scholarship, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus - baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-JDunn339-4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-Verhoof39-6 - For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dunn_%28theologian%29 - James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-JDunn339-4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Ehrman - Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate - Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-7 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan - John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-8 - Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-EddyB127-9 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Blomberg - Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_historical_Jesus - quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-Craig211-5 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_M._Tuckett - Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-10 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#cite_note-10 - |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 6:39am
What?! The last time I checked, we are all humans here. So, what else else would we "think with" other than the "human mind"?  If God wanted us to believe in a religion that required "more than the human mind" to comprehend, He would have given us a "divine mind". Since He obviously didn't, the conclusion I come to is that Christians simply cannot give a straight and logical answer to difficult questions, so they resort to circular logic in order to explain the confusing doctrines of their religion.
So, God came down Himself but decided to call Himself His own son? Not only that, He also worshiped Himself? Jesus (peace be upon him) clearly worshiped God. The Gospels are very clear on this. So, are you saying God was worshiping Himself?! Finally, notice the part of your post that I bolded. You claim that God "could not come to us any other way". I don't think that you can use the words "could not" when you are talking about All-Mighty, All-Powerful God. God can do anything, so when someone says that He "could not" do something, I don't think they quite understand the concept of an All-Mighty, All-Powerful God. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:13pm
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God is triune. The Three Persons of the Godhead are ONE GOD. God is not a human and He doesnt fall under the human rules That is why He is God He is ABOVE everything. Every miracle is a suspence of the human physical laws and yet God breaks those laws each time He manifests in our lives Even more, if He doesnt make miracles then He would be no God at all since the very nature of God is power So God HAS to prove Himself by miracles (and He always did it) otherwise you may folow false gods and now know it.... God reeives our worship. Jesus worshipped the Father as a man. And the Father said He glorified Jesus. They are one in everything. Yes, God could not come in any other way to us because He gave the world to the huan race and only as a human could He get it back. He made the rules and He never breaks them. God never lies or is above the law He created He hates lying and deception. He is a humble God and the greatest Servant That is His nature. And that causes that he cannot break His own words, since there is no confusion in Him. He became a man to set mankind free. He had to do it asa man because HE decided to give mankind authority over the earth. God is very logical. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 5:21pm
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islamispeace, You obviously skipped a great deal of what was in my post, or simply made no effort to comprehend And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Shall the Lord declare that your own right hand can save you? Is it you, or He that has all knowledge of Himself? asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 5:57pm
You obviously did not get the point I was making, because you did the same exact thing that I was critiquing. Every "answer" you give is a cop-out, relying largely on circular logic. This latest post in just another example. You don't seem to realize that using the Bible to explain the Bible's contradictions and bizarre teachings does nothing. Case in point: Just because the Bible claims that God came down as a man does nothing to explain the absurd idea that as a "man", "God" worshiped Himself. Why would He do that? Your best answer to that question is "well, don't question God". What you don't get is that I am not questioning God. I am questioning the Bible. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 6:55pm
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Greetings islamispeace, Ok, so you tell me... according to your qur'an... Was Moses able to look upon the face of God? Is anyone? asalaam, CH note: You were the one that asked about; "And if God really loved us, why would He send His son to die for our sins? Why didn't He come Himself? If I loved someone, I wouldn't send my son to show my love. I would go myself to the person I love. " and yes, in the Biblical scriptures, God gives us the answers to your questions. Peace and blessings to you.  ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 8:00pm
You're still not answering my question. Why can't you give a straight answer? Why would God come down in the form of a man and worship Himself? And is God His own "son"? Was Jesus really the "son" or was he really the "Father"? Regarding whether anyone can see God, you missed my point. I am saying that God is certainly not incapable of of making someone "see" Him, if He wanted to do that. Now, to answer your question, Moses (peace be upon him) was not able to look upon God. But does that mean that had God wanted Moses to be able to look upon Him, that He couldn't actually do that? I sure hope you don't think that God has limitations to His power. By the way, Muslims believe that in the afterlife, we will see God's "Face", as stated in a hadith from Sahih Bukhari: "Narrated Jarir: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."" ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 8:45pm
Greetings islamispeace, I answered your question, then you re-phrase it. How many times, and how many ways can I answer? Saint Patrick took a shamrock(a 3 leaf clover). He said to the people, "Am I ministering to one leaf or to three?" The people answered, 'It is both one and three.' "And so it is with God" 'do I worship one or three... it is both one and three...' Why do you not answer my question? You said you are questioning the Bible. so, according to your qur'an... Was Moses able to look upon the face of God? Is anyone? No, God clearly states in the scriptures that He can not present Himself before us, as He is... therefore He presents Himself as He can... veiled... from behind... in a burning bush... as the One we learn to call His Son, as He is Himself in the flesh... indwelt in human form... a biological unit. No, He does not have limitations to His power... that is why He was able to come to us in the flesh it is a limitation of humans to be able to withstand the fullness of His glory, and so yes, He did show Himself to us, in the ways in which He could... and Yshwe was the way He felt we would best be able to learn to follow Him. Yshwe was the 'new thing God said He was going to do'... 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? to come to us in the flesh.
Yes, it is in the Biblical scriptures; 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know [in full] It's all there in the scriptures... all the answers, to every thing, you ever need to know. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 9:07pm
No, you didn't answer my question. You just went around in circles, as most Christians usually do. If you can't provide logical and rational answers to my questions, don't blame me! As for your "shamrock" analogy, we have dealt with that before. Remember this: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28565 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28565 In all my years discussing with Christians, I have never been given a satisfactory explanation of the trinity. It seems to me that Christians pretend that they understand the trinity, when they really don't. I have also never been given a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus worshiped God, when supposedly he was "God" himself. In my view, any being who worships another being is not worthy of worship himself.
This is what I mean by Christians going in circles and being incapable of providing a straight answer. You first claim that God "cannot" present Himself before us, which would imply that He has "limitations". Then you say that He has no "limitations" to His power, but that it is the "limitation of humans" that is at fault. This explanation overlooks the fact that had God wanted to, He could have made us so that we could indeed "withstand the fullness of His glory". Do you deny this? The Bible (specifically the New Testament) has no answers, just bizarre concepts which defy logical explanation and require mental gymnastics to sustain. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 9:33pm
Aw... just when I get to thinking I like you, you have to go back to empty accusations.
Yes. and how did you miss all this? Originally posted by Lachi islamispeace, do you understand God? Can you explain His nature? God is beyond human understanding, so do not point figure. 'for they think only with the mind of man' And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit�s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God�s power. (NIV) 6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God�his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, �What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived� the things God has prepared for those who love him" (this is from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 64) 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person�s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, �Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?� (from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 40) But we have the mind of Christ. (KJV)
That just made me think of this; 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Open your heart to the Holy Spirit.'allah reveals to whom what he will reveal' allah does not reveal. allah does not want you to know. 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. It is the 'god of this world' who causes blindness
Yes, I do deny this. We are flesh and blood. We do not know what form the Creator is of. When we are no longer flesh and blood we will be able to be in His presence in the fullness of His glory, but not while we are flesh and blood. We are that special creation of His... the biological form. Obviously before the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, they were able to be in the presence of the Creator, so obviously something about their sin changed them to no longer be able to be in the presence of God. Do we have any way of understanding what this thing, this change is... no... only if and when we rejoin our Creator will we have the fullness of understanding. hehehe - as much as you feel I talk in circles, I feel the same about you. Peace and blessings, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 10:00pm
Yeah, I remember all that nonsense. It's what I have been saying all along. Christians have to resort to mental gymnastics. They have no answers. All they can do is run in circles. Has it ever occurred to you that the Bible's writers knew that the doctrine they were preaching made no sense, so they came up with nonsensical explanations about the "mind of Christ" and other ridiculous ideas? Has it ever occurred to you that these people wanted to keep you from questioning these things because they knew that anyone with a rational mind (a God-given rational mind) would see right through the contradictions in the Bible? What if you have been deceived? 
More mental gymnastics. You have been deceived by Satan. That's why you can't provide a rational answer. On the Day of Judgment, you will have no excuse when you stand before Allah, the Lord of all. By the way, do you know what the origin is of the name "Yahweh"?
Wow! So you believe that God cannot make us look upon His "fullness" if He wanted! And once again, you appeal to the "we can't understand" argument. This is what I have been talking about! There is just no such thing as a straight answer from a Christian. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2014 at 11:48pm
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rich tapestry of the Quran, weaving through a number of themes, including the mystery of God, surrender to the divine will, and provisions for the spiritual journey. "Doesn't even your teaching tell you that allah is unknowable?" Shall the Lord declare that your own right hand can save you? Is it you, or He that has all knowledge of Himself? You still haven't answered; Was Moses able to look upon the face of God? Is anyone? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 1:11pm
Greetings islamispeace, Do you think I haven't asked myself, what if the muslims are right? Have you asked yourself, what if the Christians are right? This is why I say we must look at what our religion might require us to do, and discern truth. This is why it is so important to discern what is evil(and what is leading us to do evil) and what is good. To really look at our religion to see what is really at the root of it. What does our religion really teach. My religion does not fill me with prejudice and mistrust of others. My religion teaches love for others, and dilligence in watching my own behavior(being careful to keep my own eyes free from splinters)... giving others the benefit of the doubt... innocent unless shown beyond a doubt to be guilty, not the other way around... and if I myself am not free from sin(and none of us are, if we say we are then we are liars and the Truth is not in us, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), then I have no right to cast stones at others. I may speak to them, but I have no right to condemn them. God has the power to forgive sins, and to turn us from wicked ways. We get this through the Son, Yshwe... through His sacrifice made for us. When you can understand what was done for us... the suffering He endured for our sakes... we can not turn ourselves from the temptations and from wicked leanings, but when we come to know the sacrifice of Yshwe we are turned by the power of that knowledge... Yshwe is the Way, the Truth and the Life... it is His sacrifice(understanding that sacrifice... believing, not denying it) that leads us home. Living in denial will never lead a soul home. Having carefully examined, and continually re-visiting and re-examining the evidence, I am unable to conclude that Muhammad was a prophet of God. I see his religion as propagating alot of human judgment(prejudice) and mistrust, which leads to chaos. asalaam, CH 'It's really satan, the enemy of God, that is the enemy of us all. He wears away the society, speaking against the most high, seeking to remove Him, watering down and destroying God's Word.' ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 1:46pm
Actually, I did answer the question. If you overlooked it, that's not my problem. As I said, Moses (peace be upon him) was not able to look upon God, BUT, I also said that if God wanted him to be able to do so, He certainly could have because nothing is beyond His ability. I believe in a God who is All-Powerful and can do anything He wants. Apparently, you don't think so. Coming back to the blasphemous Christian worship of Jesus (peace be upon him), I have reiterate that any being who worships another being that he considers to be greater than himself, that being is not worthy of worship. Since Jesus worshiped God, he cannot be worthy of worship himself. The Christian answer to this logic is: "Well, don't question God" OR "Don't think. Just believe" OR "You need the holy spirit". In other words, Christians have no real answers. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 1:53pm
If you think that your idea of "love" somehow determines the truth of a religion, then you should probably be a Buddhist or a Jain. Your religion is self-contradictory. On the one hand, you preach "love" but on the other hand, your religion teaches that anyone who believes differently from you is the "anti-Christ" which is just like saying that they are of the devil. Yeah, that's "love" alright! In my view, what a religion teaches is not the only way we determine its truth. There are many factors. Studying the history of the religion, its development of ideas and its "scripture" reveals much about its truthfulness or falsehood. In having done a detailed study of Christianity and Islam, I have found that Christianity is a false religion that has deceived billions of souls through a false promise of "salvation" that was mostly preached by a self-declared "apostle" named Paul, a man who never even met Jesus but who presumed to know everything he taught. A detailed and non-biased study of the history of Christianity and its "scriptures" will inevitably lead a person to this one conclusion. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 1:54pm
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You didn't answer my question: Do you know what is the origin of the name "Yahweh"?
------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 4:56pm
I was waiting for you to share. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 5:04pm
"Well, don't question allah" or what Muhammad says allah said OR "Don't think. Just believe" OR "You need Muhammad".  ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 5:08pm
Correct.  God told Moses; 20 And He said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. I believe the Creator understands the dimensions of things which I can not, and that He is better qualified to speak on His behalf than I. My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. - Isaiah 55:8 asalaam. Shall the Lord declare that your own right hand can save you? Is it you, or He that has all knowledge of Himself? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 7:43pm
Well, if you were "waiting", then maybe you should say so instead of making me ask the question a second time! Anyway, see here: http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/the-bibles-yahweh-a-war-god-called-lord-of-armies-over-280-times-in-the-bible-and-lord-of-peace-just-once-i/ - http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/the-bibles-yahweh-a-war-god-called-lord-of-armies-over-280-times-in-the-bible-and-lord-of-peace-just-once-i/ Here is an excerpt which deals specifically with the origins of the name "Yahweh": Yahweh originated from a war-god tradition. http://www.biblicalheritage.org/God/el-goi.htm - Dr. Lloyd M. Barre writes:
Prof. Mark S. Smith notes on p.144 of The Origins of Biblical Monotheism that Yahweh was introduced to the Israelites as a �divine warrior [god] from the south.� Indeed, �Yahweh and Baal co-existed and later competed as warrior-gods� (Ibid., p.33). This motif continued in the Israelite tradition: the tribal warrior-god Yahweh went to war against competing gods and nations on behalf of Israel. Although Yahweh, the God the Israelites adopted, would one day become the supreme God of the land and eliminate his competition, initially he was just one of many competing �war and storm-gods;� as Prof. Erhard S. Gerstenberger writes on p.151 of Theologies of the Old Testament (emphasis added):
In other words, Yahweh started out as a �storm and war god,� and only later acquired other functions now commonly associated with God, including for example the ability to create. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 7:48pm
We have seen over and over again your failure to offer a rational answer to any of my questions. The reason is clear. Unlike my religion, which embraces and calls for us to use our common sense and rationality, your religion calls for you to not use your "human mind" to ponder the difficulties in your religion. You will notice that I have never said that you need to think with more than just your "human mind". Rather, it has been you who has told me that. Why? Because your religion is based on avoiding the difficult questions and simply believing what you have been told. Christianity must be the only religion which essentially states that in order to understand the religion, you must first believe in it! After all, it is only after you believe that the "holy spirit" comes to you. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 7:53pm
See? Again you fail to respond without resorting to the "Don't think. Just believe" mantra.  As I said, Moses (peace be upon him) was unable to look upon God, BUT if God had wanted that to happen, He could easily have done it. In other words, if God wanted Moses to be able to "see" Him, He could have done that because He is All-Powerful and nothing is beyond His ability. Obviously, you realize this and so you say: I believe the Creator understands the dimensions of things which I can not, and that He is better qualified to speak on His behalf than I. In other words, you are that you can't answer the question and that we should not think, just believe. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 10:45pm
Greetings islamispeace, I've just been reading at the link you provided (not the loonwatch one, as I don't put much credence in anything that I read there, and I avoid it like the plague )and checking on the reputation of the writer Lloyd M. Barre, and consulting my Bibles, and I must say that I am flummoxed. I have been studying Psalm 82, Numbers 23-24, Deuteronomy16:18, and John 10; in the formats of, the Restoration Study Bible which includes Strong's Hebrew and Greek concordances, the Geneva Bible, and the NLT; and indeed I can understand why so much arguing goes on among the Jewish scholars in Yeshiva, over the understanding, meaning, interpretation, and application of their scriptures. Here are the notes I took: Numbers 23 - El and Yahweh - I must say I am entirely flummoxed Numbers indeed seems to speak of more than one god The trouble is... why did people believe Balaam? the same as, why did they believe Muhammad? In either case there is no proof that God spoke. Why is there any reason to think that these are not mere men doing what they think is best for their people? I have the same problem with this(Numbers) as I do with Muhammad... seems very self-serving... conquest oriented. It seems to teach the same way Muhammad taught. Here is a people, like a lion.... become drunk on the blood of his victims. - Numbers 23 ... drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs - Revelation 17:6 Then I went on to read through Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32, and things began to make more sense. This is from the link you shared, (i.e., Lloyd M. Barre) Psalm 82 is remarkable in that it has El "firing" all his sons and condemning them to mortality. Although this Psalm shares the same view of El and his sons, this tradition descends from northern tradition and in this respect differs from the Jerusalem tradition found in Deut 32:8-9. In Psalm 82, Yahweh is not explicitly mentioned even though Deut 32:8-9 would place him among the "sons of Elyon" (v. 6).I disagree that Psalm 82 refers to 'sons' which are gods. It is unclear what mighty ones means. Leaders like the Pharaohs might have been considered 'mighty ones', as they perceived themselves to be like gods, or sons of gods. So the wording or the concept may have carried with the Hebrews who had been in Egypt. The passage may be meant to say, 'ye are men that will die the same as anybody else'. I could accept from Deuteronomy 32, that the Israelites at some point began to follow a war god(a false god - one that met the needs and justified their unjustifiable actions under the leadership of Joshua.). I have always had trouble with the god of the old testament. A separate (false)god known as Yahweh, as opposed to the other references to El in the scriptures would resolve this issue for me. The people of Jacob (renamed Israel by Yahweh) following and belonging to Yahweh... this would explain alot. Deuteronomy 32:6 however, in no way indicates Yahweh as 'among the sons of Elyon'. Not that I am finding. and this; Psalm 29 is remarkable in that while Yahweh appears here also as one of the sons of El, this psalm portrays a highly dynamic god who does not fit the profile of the subordinate god who ruled over a portion of his father's domain. Psalm 29 is much closer to Canaanite thought than to Deut 32:8-9 and Psalm 82. It appears that we have some variation with regard to the characteristics of El�s pantheon--one which shares many of the dynamic qualities of Canaanite myth (Psalm 29), while another that may be described as presenting the cosmic adminstrative rule of El by his sons. Again, Psalm 29 does not indicate Yahweh as a 'son of El' Psalm 82 is not necessarily referencing a pantheon of gods, but rather 'Elohim standeth in the congregation of the mighty ones' could merely have meant (when the Hebrew writers were writing), that El rules over the mighty of men... as mentioned earlier, as in Egypt, the Hebrews would have been trained to believe that the pharaohs were gods(i.e., mighty ones). So I disagree with this writer's interpretation. Yshwe(Christianity) is the polished up version of Judaism, and islam... 'all have gone astray' 6 All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. asalaam, I am rather exhausted now from that study. Thanks for sharing, I feel that I learned alot. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 10:55pm
Greetings islamispeace, Your answer makes no sense. You believe the qur'an do you not? How do you explain that? asalaam. CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 8:51pm
I came across this, which I found amazing and disturbing, a thing which I had never picked up on before. So I did some further study.Exodus 6 I wondered, is it possible that Moses followed a false god(YHWH)? When I go to my Restoration Study Bible, to the Hebrew concordance this is what I find. el - strength, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity) - God elohim - plural, gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used of the supreme God Yahweh (Yhovah) - the self-existant, or eternal; Jewish national name of God Shaddai - Almighty, thus, El Shaddai - God Almighty So it seems that among the Hebrews also, the supreme Creator had many names? Adonai was another name for God It still seems possible to me that Moses was called by a war god named Yahweh... a false god that led him by deception? It is perhaps possible that this Yahweh was not the same 'God' that appeared to Abraham, though he claimed to be? It would explain alot. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Final thoughts: So where did things go wrong? As far as I can see things went wrong after the death of Moses... at the time when the people entered Canaan and spread death throughout the land. I can not see where Moses did any wrong. He seemed a true prophet of God. So did the people, when they ceased to have a good ruler to follow, once again go about their own wills as they had when Moses was gone on Mt. Sinai? Carrying out the instruction of Moses to enter into the land of Canaan, in the way that they chose? Did the Spirit of God leave them to the wiles of the devil once again when Moses died? If I believe this, then I must believe that akin to the muslims, the hebrews simply had many names for the Creator(i.e., God). ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 9:09am
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i am not saying an opinion but i just quoted to you what wikipedia says - that crucifixion is the histoircal even, it is a FACT of history, that it is recorded more than many less known but not doubted historical names, that Jesus said He came to die on the cross and that the old testament prophecied about it. Allah ascribes to himself the authoriship of the Bible so the Bible was never changed so even Allah confirmes the Bible is true and the Bible says Jesus died on the cross. Muhammad attests to the Torah's authority. So, for Muslims to claim the Bible was corrupted is an argument already lost.... Sura 5:48 we are told that Muhammad is given the Qur'an as a confirmation of the bible; that is - it is meant to prove the bible's authenticity....In Sura 46:12 we are told.... "Yet before it there was the Book of Moses which was an authority, and a mercy. This (the Qur'an) is the Book confirming it in the Arabic tongue....."
And most importantly of all: Jesus Himself said He died on the cross. Jesus who never lied or sinned. http://www.cbn.com/special/apologetics/articles/the-evidence-for-jesus-part2.aspx - http://www.cbn.com/s...esus-part2.aspx http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/religion/artikel.php?ID=306578 - http://www.ghanaweb....l.php?ID=306578
Nobody can deny what really happened then. Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead 600 years before Muhammad came. It was already recorded and witnessed by hundreds upon hundreds of witnesses. |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 9:23am
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facts facts facts The Historical Evidence #1. Eyewitness Sources There are many evidences from which one can argue for the historicity of Christ�s death by crucifixion, of which I will use only a few. The first evidence for Jesus� crucifixion is from the testimony of eyewitness sources. Many Muslims do not believe there is eyewitness material in the accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. In fact, one Muslim claims that �Not a single one of the Christians was a witness with them [the Jews]. Rather the apostles kept a distance through fear, and not one of them witnessed the crucifixion.� This argument is largely based upon http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matthew%2026.56 - Matthew 26:56 which says, �Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.� Though the disciples forsook Jesus, some of them were still witnesses from a distance ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mark%2014.54 - Mark 14:54 ). Also, there was an anonymous disciple whom Jesus, while on the cross, commanded to take care of Mary ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%2019.26-27 - John 19:26-27 ). The Gospel of Luke reports that while Jesus was carrying the cross, �. . . there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2023.27 - Luke 23:27 , emphasis mine).� In addition to these people already mentioned the Gospels are scattered with references to Jewish leaders ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mt.%2027.41 - Mt. 27:41 ; http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mk.%2015.31 - Mk. 15:31 ), Roman centurion ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mt.%2027.54 - Mt. 27:54 ; http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mk.%2015.39 - Mk. 15:39 ; http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lk.%2023.47 - Lk. 23:47 ) and soldiers ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mt.%2027.35 - Mt. 27:35 ; http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Mk.%2015.24 - Mk. 15:24 ; http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lk.%2023.35 - Lk. 23:35 ; and http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%2019.18 - John 19:18 , http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%2019.23 - 23 ) who all witnessed Jesus� crucifixion. For Muslims to argue that the crucifixion is not historical simply does not square with the historical data because there were multitudes of witnesses to the fact that the Romans crucified Jesus. #2. Medical EvidenceIn light of the eyewitness evidence from the gospels, there is strong medical evidence that confirms the historicity of Christ�s death as presented in the Gospels. Before examining the medical evidence, as a general point the Romans knew how to crucify their victims. To suppose that the Romans would have allowed Jesus to escape the cross, is nonsensical. The Romans knew how to kill someone and they knew when someone was dead. Concerning the specific medical evidence, the gospels report specific conditions that a crucified victim would have experienced. First, in Jesus� pre-crucifixion experience in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Gospel of Luke reports that Jesus sweated �great drops of blood� ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2022.44 - Luke 22:44 ). According to Alexander Metherell an M.D. and Ph.D., �This is a known medical condition called hematidrosis.� He later acknowledges that tremendous stress like the kind that Jesus suffered could have produced this effect. Second, Jesus� desire, while on the cross, to receive a drink confirms the fact that he likely was experiencing another known medical condition called hypovolemic shock, which would have been caused by his beating. According to Metherell, hypovolemic schock �. . . does four things. First, the heart races to try to pump blood that isn�t there; second, the blood pressure drops, causing fainting or collapse; third, the kidneys stop producing urine to maintain what volume is left; and fourth, the person becomes very thirsty as the body craves fluids to replace the lost blood volume.� Third, the evidence from the spear thrust confirms the idea that Jesus did indeed die on the cross. Concerning this Matherell states that hypovolemic shock causes a rapid heart beat which results in fluid around the heart called a pericardial effusion. The Gospel of John testifies to this fact in http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%2019.34 - John 19:34 which says, �. . . one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.� Metherell continues, �The spear apparently went through the right lung and into the heart, so when the spear was pulled out, some fluid � the pericardial effusion and the pleural effusion � came out. This would have the appearance of a clear fluid like water.� Therefore, given the above specific medical evidence, the Journal of the American Medical Association is justified to conclude, �. . . interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge.� |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 8:47am
I don't know why you are still having a hard time understanding this issue. Muslims don't deny that a crucifixion occurred at the hands of the Romans! What we believe is that the unbelievers boasted that they had killed Jesus, but in reality, the man they had crucified was not Jesus but someone else. And as for your cut and paste "evidence", I have already discussed the contradictory "eyewitness" accounts of the crucifixion on my blog. Did you even bother to read the articles? Contradictory "eyewitness" testimony would lead a to mistrial in a court, so why on earth would anyone believe the contradictory Gospels? ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 8:57am
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So you deny what Jesus said about Himself. It is Jesus who said that He died on the cross.Which then means He DID die on the cross since Jesus never lied or sinned. Never and the old testament prophecied Jesus will die on the cross - which happened hundreds of years later and history PROVES Jesus died on the cross. So what is there to not understand about it? Jesus said it and that settles the whole issue. Sinless Jesus said it. So that makes it true. Jesus died on the cross 600 years before islam came to existance and denies it. Wjat is more. on the cross when Jesus was hanging and suffering He talked to His own mother and to His beloved apostle (John). would the closes persons not RECIGNIZE Jesus hangng on the cross? so how can anybody say it was somebody else who died in stead of Jesus? tat is nonsense. Facts are that it was Jesus who died on the cross. There is so many witnesses to that historical event and it is a historical fact, proven and recorded by many. Historians say it is an indisputable issue. Unquestionable. But what makes it really indisputable and unquiestionable is Jesus's words. That is more than enough what Jesus said. No other witnesses are needed because Jesus is God who never lied or sinned. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 5:46pm
Greetings kometa, fabrications, pure and simple... that came about no doubt, to try and understand the things which Muhammad had said. I imagine people were hard put to find reasons why they should be opposed to the Christians. The things Muhammad had to say weren't exactly clear cut, especially since he was always changing what he had to say. What the qur'an actually says is that, 'to the Jews it was made to seem that they had killed Him' because the Jews I am sure took the credit for the death of Yshwe, though it was God's own choice... pre-ordained, and done at the hands of the Romans. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 7:46pm
You're still not getting it! Your entire premise is based on the Gospels, which as I already showed, are unreliable as "eyewitness" accounts. One Gospel says one thing and another Gospel says another thing. According to one Gospel, the "women" saw the crucifixion from far away, so how could Jesus speak to his mother? Oh and as for your ridiculous claim that the "Old Testament" prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross, I would say that anyone who has ever actually read the Old Testament would know that no such prophesies exist. It is a Christian invention. The Old Testament spoke of a victorious Messiah, not a crucified Messiah. And the Old Testament never stated that the Messiah would have a "second coming". Perhaps you can show me just one prophecy from the Old Testament which says that the Messiah would be crucified and then would return a second time. I asked "caringheart" for this, but she couldn't provide what I asked for, so now I am asking you. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 9:13pm
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Isaiah (the Lord hath led me to this tonight) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. After the death and resurrection of Yshwe the meaning of this prophesy was clear to all the Apostles. (Hidden in the old[testament], revealed in the new[testament]) Perhaps this will make it clearer. Some notes I took a few days ago. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 11:32pm
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also, read Psalm 22 Pretty much all of the scriptures are drawn from the Psalms. the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. The crucifixion of Yshwe was foretold approximately 1,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 7:32am
I have heard this argument many times from Christians. It seems none of you have actually ever read these passages in their context. You simply repeat what you hear from other Christians. Are you sure that it was the "Lord" that led you to this, "caringheart"? More likely, it was the devil that led you. It amazes me that Christians don't seem to realize the obvious difficulty of linking Isaiah 53 with the Gospel story of the crucifixion. It never even mentions the Messiah! Not once! So, who is the "servant" mentioned? Well, when we read the book of Isaiah, we see that the word is consistently used with regard to the nation of Israel itself. Case in point: "He said to me, �You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.�" Further proof is found in the passage that you quoted yourself! Isaiah 53:10 states: Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Obviously, this cannot be referring to Jesus (peace be upon him) because he had no seed, unless Christians are willing to admit that Jesus may have married and had children. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 7:40am
I have heard this argument before as well. It is just another case of taking one particular passage out of context. When read in context, it will be seen that the verse is part of a long prayer made by the psalmist (identified as David). He is praying to God to rescue him from his enemies. In fact, the very next passage is a prayer to God to "deliver me from the sword": But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. Now, if "piercing" of hands and feet is somehow conflated as a reference to crucifixion, then why does the psalm mention the "sword". Why doesn't it say "deliver me from the cross"? Christians are only fooling themselves by buying into these misquotes. Motivated by false hope, they deceive themselves. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 8:34am
Greetings islamispeace, I am really sad for you that you do not understand and know Yshwe... what is sadder is that you do not even try to get to know Him and His Word.  Read the parable of the sower since you think 'Yshwe had no 'seed''. (book of Matthew, chapter 13) You are 'a stony place, with no depth of ground.'  Peace and blessings to you, and may God plow up the soil of your heart to receive His seed. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 8:54am
For those who don't understand "caringheart's" post, allow me to translate: I don't know how to respond to the points islamispeace has raised, so I will disregard all the evidence and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaJVv1bzfTU - choose to believe what I was programmed to believe . Peace be with you and may you blindly believe just as I do. Don't think. Just believe." ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 10:44am
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Greetings islamispeace, Your claims have no basis. Why are you afraid to read Psalm 22, Genesis 3, the prophesies in the book of Isaiah, and the parable of the sower told by Yshwe Himself(book of Matthew, chapter 13) except that satan is an enemy of God... enemy of Christ... and does not want you to know the Truth.. wants to keep you blind? The story of the prophecy starts at the beginning of the book, and it spans the length of the scriptures. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 11:20am
I did read them, dear. And I showed you why I don't buy into the Christian propaganda. The so-called "prophecies" have nothing to do with a suffering Messiah. You need to get over it. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 3:21pm
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Ok, you reject prophesy... not much I can do about that. asalaam. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 3:27pm
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7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door* of the sheep. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so, know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. - the Word of Yshwe * interesting... this word in the Greek concordance means; door, gate... portal or entrance... ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 7:43pm
Oh for the love of God...do you have trouble reading? I said that the passages you referred to were not "prophecies". I didn't say that I "reject prophesy". Please, learn how to read. You're embarrassing yourself. The passages, such in Psalm 22, are not prophecies. Psalm 22, as I showed, is a long prayer where the psalmist (who is identified as David) prays to God to protect him from his enemies. As with Isaiah 53, the Messiah is never mentioned. And furthermore, if Psalm 22 was a "prophecy" about the Messiah's crucifixion, then the least it could have said was to "deliver me from the cross". Now that would have been impressive! But no. It says "deliver me from the sword". The implication is that God will answer the prayer and will indeed save the psalmist from his enemies. That doesn't bode well for the Christian propaganda machine. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 8:18pm
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Greetings islamispeace, and, as I said; "The story of the prophecy starts at the beginning of the book, and it spans the length of the scriptures." I am sorry that you can not understand and 'see' that. Peace and blessings to you, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 8:29pm
Riiight. Why can't Christians ever give a straight answer? Why can't you provide simple evidence for any of your propaganda? Why can't you provide a reasonable, rational defense of your religion? I refuted your appeals to Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. What was your response? Oh, "prophecy spans the length of the scriptures". Huh?! If Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are looked at independently, without appeals to the New Testament (which obviously has been molded by its anonymous authors to correspond with the passages they misinterpreted as "prophecies"), do they "prophecy" the Messiah's "crucifixion" or are they simply passages taken out of context by over-zealous Christians trying desperately to justify their belief? I vote for the latter. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 7:39am
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The crucifixion of Jesus is an undeniable indisputable FACT of history. It happened long long before Muhammad came and Islam came. And on top of that JESUS Himself said He came to be crucified and to be raised from the dead. That settles the whole issue. On top of that over the head of Jesus hanging on the cross there was a sing: Jesus of Nazereth, the Kinf of the jews. On top of that the old testament prophecies precicted the crucifixion of Jesus. And on top of that many many historians recorded the fact of crucifixion of Jesus. The life of Jesus was so important and His ministry that the world started to be coumnted since the coming of Jesus. We date everything as to be BC - Before Christ or After Christ was born. And on top of that Jesus never sinned and never lied. And on top of that Jesus SPOKE to His own moither and His beloved apostle whom He knew for 3 years - when He was hanging on the cross. So nobody can deny the crucifixion. It is a fact. Period. Islam came 600 years AFTER the crucifixion, when it already took place. Jesus said I Am the TRUTH, which means all else is a lie. As simple as that.... |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 2:27pm
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Greetings islamispeace, I've provided the evidence, but you choose to remain in your blindness... or someone is keeping you blind. That's ok. I can not remove the blindness, only Yshwe can do that. In fairness though, I can tell you, I've been asking these same questions all through my journey to Truth. Isaiah reflects what is in the Psalms. Yshwe's teaching draws from what is in Isaiah, and the Psalms. Yshwe's life reflects what is in Isaiah and the Psalms. Even we can go as far back as Genesis and see how Yshwe is the fulfillment of the scriptures. What does all this mean? Was Yshwe's story written from the former scriptures... a continuation of it? Well, Yshwe never rejected what was written in the former scriptures.... and when the Jews were bringing Him up before the Romans to be sentenced to death... (and of course the Romans themselves) I doubt they were thinking of fulfilling the scriptures... these are things we only see in hindsight... how events that happened had earlier been written about and now were understood. It is not 'made up' that the Romans hung Yshwe on a cross (or even if you want to hold to your muslim teaching... that they hung what they thought was Yshwe on a cross)... and it was clearly written in the scriptures long before this event ever happened... all the way back in the Psalms of David... about the piercing of the hands and of the feet.... long before Crucifixion was ever implemented. How do we explain this? It is quite simply the foretelling of a thing to come... if you believe in prophesy. asalaam. There is more in the scripture and in the life of Yshwe, but I try to keep my posts short. asalaam and blessings. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 3:22pm
Still not getting it? The only "evidence" you have provided is that of your brain-washing. I have heard appeals to Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 for a long time. I am amazed at how easily Christians can choose to close their eyes and believe what they have been told by their pastors. I already showed that Isaiah 53 is talking about Israel, not the Messiah. The Messiah is not even mentioned once! I also showed the context of Psalm 22, which is a prayer to God to protect the psalmist from his enemies. If it was supposed to be a "prophecy" about the crucifixion, then it would have been prudent to mention it. Instead, the psalmist mentions things like the "sword" instead of the "cross". Also, claiming that "piercing" of "hands and feet" somehow must refer to crucifixion is a non-sequitur. You want there to be a correlation, even if there is none. Is "piercing" of hands and feet only done via crucifixion? The other problem is that when you study the original Hebrew, you realize that the verse has actually been mistranslated by Christians! Read the following article written by a Rabbi: http://outreachjudaism.org/crucifixion-psalm/%20%20%20 - http://outreachjudaism.org/crucifixion-psalm/ So, the verse doesn't even say "pierced", because the Hebrew word "kaari" actually means "like a lion". Hence, the correct translation of the verse should be: "For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet." The article proves that this is the correct translation because it points out that the same word, "kaari", is also found in Isaiah 38:13 and ironically, Christians have translated the word correctly in that verse! Here are the translations in the KJV and NIV, respectively: "I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones: from day even to night wilt thou make an end of me." "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones; day and night you made an end of me." So, why have Christians so deceptively translated Psalm 22:16? You have been deceived, caringheart. It's for your own good that you realize this. But I know that you probably will not admit the truth. I know that the truth scares you. So, it's okay. I understand your apprehension. You prefer to remain in the dark because the light frightens you. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 4:09pm
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You make me laugh when you talk of 'brainwashing', because anything I have to say comes from reading the scriptures... period. Where do your ideas come from? from reading your qur'an? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 4:16pm
Again, no response?? Have you nothing to say how you were deceived into believing a mistranslation?  ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 4:27pm
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Greetings islamispeace, You would gain more if you would change your approach to discussion. I have no problem with discussing and examining. Let us examine: 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Strong's Hebrew concordance 3738 - karah - a primitive root; properly, to dig; figurativley to plot; generally, to bore or open so; they 'dig at' my hands and feet ? they have 'dug open' my hands and feet ? they bore into my hands and feet ? Isaiah 38:13 - as a lion Strong's Hebrew concordance 738 - ariy - from arah(in the sense of violence); a lion:(young) lion + pierce(from the margin) So, I don't know what we've proven ? The Christian translation seems accurate to me. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 4:41pm
And you might want to learn how to read! Where is it mentioned in "Strong's Hebrew Concordance" that the Hebrew word used in Psalm 22:16 means to "pierce" as in the "piercing" that would occur during a crucifixion? It doesn't! Go figure! Moreover, you continue to allow Christian sources to deceive you. What "Strong's Hebrew Concordance" fails to mention is that the word used in Psalm 22:16 is exactly the same as the one used in Isaiah 38:13, so there is no question of different meanings! The article I previously referenced stated this clearly: "For example, the identical word kaari is also found in Isaiah 38:13. In the immediate context of this verse King Hezekiah is singing a song for deliverance from his grave illness.In the midst of his supplication he exclaims in Hebrew �שִׁוִּ֤יתִי עַד־בֹּ֙קֶר֙ כָּֽאֲרִ֔י� Notice that the last word in this phrase (moving from right to left) is the same Hebrew word kaari that appears in Psalm 22:17. In this Isaiah text, however, the King James Version correctly translates these words �I reckoned till morning that, as a lion�� As mentioned above, Psalm 22:17 is the only place in all of the Jewish Scriptures that any Christian Bible translates kaari as �pierced.�" Obviously, you ignored that part. I wonder why... ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 6:08pm
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Greetings islamispeace, The problem that we have here, is that the word kaari is not the word used in either instance In Psalm 22 the word used is karah and in Isaiah 38 the word used is ariy put them together and you might get the word kaari but this is not the word used in either (let alone both) of the scriptures which we are addressing. I looked the passages up in the scriptures, that is why I provided their reference numbers for the Hebrew concordance, for the words in question. If I had more time available to me I would like to do more research by contacting a Jewish scholar source as I have done in the past, and asking some questions. You seem to have alot of time on your hands. I'd be interested in what you might learn. asalaam, CH chabad.org has this as their translation from the Hebrew... but it makes no sense as written... it reads as if something is missing http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16243#v=17 - 17 . For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. Taken as is though, you have to ask yourself... what would a lion do with the hands and the feet... what would a lion do to any part of the body... he would pierce them... and why are the hands and feet specifically mentioned? jewishvirtuallibrary.org has this; 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 8:08pm
Oh for the love of God... You are confusing what Strong's Concordance says about the root of the word used in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 38, what the actual Hebrew says. Strong's claims the roots are different, yet that is impossible given that the word used is the same, and that word is "kaari". You asked that since I have "alot of time" on my hands, I could ask a "Jewish scholar" about this issue. But I have already done that! I provided a Jewish scholar's explanation, which you have consistently tried to ignore. Anyway, here is the Hebrew from Psalm 22:16- כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי And here is the Hebrew from Isaiah 38:13 - שִׁוִּיתִי עַד בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי See? It's the same exact word. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 5:00am
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Psalm 22 is simply a Psalm whcih prophecies the death of Jesus on the cross! and all those events predicted in the Psalm 22 manifested themselves in the Person of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled those prophecies. Plus: As I showed above no muslim CAN deny that the Bible is true and they
CANNOT say that the Bible was corrupted becauseit is Allah himself and
Muhammad who say the Bible is true. And the Bible says Jesus died on the cross. Even
the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named
Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the
reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius
Pilate and continued to have followers after his death (Luke Timothy Johnson, The Real Jesus (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123. SO
there is no point in denying the truth and the fact that Jesus did die
on the cross. And not only that but He also was raised from the dead.
And the http://christianity.about.com/od/booksofthebible/qt/The-Gospels.htm - Gospels and http://christianity.about.com/od/newtestamentbooks/a/Book-Of-Acts.htm - book of Acts are
eyewitness accounts of the life and death of Jesus. So if Jesus died on
the cross and was raised fro the dead by His Father then why try to
earn somethig that was given by Him for free? Jesus alreay
provided the free giftof salvation by His sacrifice on the cross instead
of every human being. He died so that we can live, He suffered so that
we can become children of God and be reconciled to the Father who is now
our Father too! God is love and He draws us to Himself by His goodness! |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 10:24am
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Greetings islamispeace, You have provided one source. What I meant was taking the time to search out for discussion, a person knowing the Hebrew. or at the very least searching many sources, which is what I have been doing. So let us return ... if we go with the word in discussion meaning 'like a lion'... this fits with 738 - ariy - from arah(in the sense of violence); a lion:(young) lion + pierce(from the margin) as a lion Do you notice where it says; a lion:(young) lion + pierce(from the margin) So even here it is used in the sense of meaning 'to be pierced', as far as I can see I go back to my original question... How does, 'like a lion my hands and my feet', make any sense? It doesn't. and again, why mention the hands and the feet? they bite my hands and feet like a lion"--Psalm 22:17 Targum translation What would you suppose this to mean? Like a lion, my hands and feet.--Psalm 22:16b (Masoretic translation) Taken as is, you have to ask yourself... what would a lion do with the hands and the feet... what would a lion do to any part of the body... What meaning were they trying to convey? We can see here a difference as well, in the rendering of this word; כארי ידי ורגלי --Psalm 22:16 (Masoretic Text with vowels removed) Like a lion, my hands and feet.--Psalm 22:16b (Masoretic translation) כָּרַע שָׁכַב כַּאֲרִי וּכְלָבִיא, מִי יְקִימֶנּוּ--Numbers 24:9 (Masoretic text) He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a lioness; who shall rouse him up?--Numbers 24:9 שִׁוִּיתִי עַד-בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי, כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי--Isaiah 38:13 (Masoretic text) The more I make myself like unto a lion until morning, the more it breaketh all my bones;--Isaiah 38:13 Here is one explanation, The Hebrew term kaaru means: �they have pierced.� The Hebrew term kaari means: �like a lion.� The two Hebrew terms are identical except for the fact that kaaru ends with the Hebrew letter vav, and kaari ends with the Hebrew letter yod. Vav and yod are essentially alike except for the fact that vav has a long �tail� on its end. Yod does not. (Read Hebrew right to left.) It�s quite likely that at some point a scribe, tediously copying Hebrew text, inadvertently or otherwise, failed to attach that longer, vertical, descending line to the vav, thus rendering the vav a yod. This changed the meaning of the Massoretic Text, or standard text, which is the basis for the Jewish Bible. Apparently this is a matter in question that has been going on for 100 years or more. Dead Sea scrolls The Hebrew word has כארו (they dug), though an unusual spelling not found else where, instead of the word in the כארי (lion)... The only difference between the two words, as can be seen in the fragment, is that the yod, is smaller than the vav, Kaaru has a "vav" and Kari has a "yod," so an error could have happened with either making the letter too short, or too long. I sum up by saying: What meaning was meant to be conveyed? something to do with the hands and the feet... and the ferocity of the lion. (lion and lamb.... ?) asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 7:29pm
The source I provided was an article written by a Rabbi. I am pretty sure he knows Hebrew. As for the sources you have been "searching", I will wager that most, if not all, are Christian sources. You haven't provided any links or reference material.
The source I quoted provided the following translation, which makes perfect sense to me: "For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet." This is simply a metaphor that the psalmist was using to describe how his enemies were all around him. Referring to the "hands and feet" illustrates this point. In fact, the Jewish commentator Rashi http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16243#showrashi=true - explained it as the following (using Isaiah 38:13 as a reference point): "...like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion�s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): �like a lion, so it would break all my bones.�"
Well, what does it sound like? It's a metaphor for the violence of the psalmist's enemies. They mean to do him harm.
That the psalmist is worried about his enemies doing him harm, and so he prays to his Lord to "deliver me from the sword". I don't see what is so hard to understand.
I don't know what your point is here. Psalm 22:16 and Isaiah 38:13 are exactly the same, even in the Masoretic text. You can check for yourself here: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1038.htm%20%20 - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1038.htm http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm - There is a slight difference in the vowel markings in http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0424.htm - Numbers 24:9 , which is why the verse is translated as: "He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a lioness; who shall rouse him up? Blessed be every one that blesseth thee, and cursed be every one that curseth thee." While Psalm 22:16 and Isaiah 38:13 are translated as "like a lion" or "like unto a lion", Numbers 24:9 is translated simply as "as a lion". Also, the vowel markings were only added later anyway. The original Hebrew would not have had them. As one source http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/pierce.html - explains : "Remember that Hebrew is read from right to left and in its original Biblical form is purely consonantal-the vowel points were added by later scribes (probably around 700 CE)."
I am way ahead of you on this. I already checked out a few Christian sources and the various explanations they try to come up with, and this was one of them. Ironically, the Jewish source I originally provided dealt with this issue. I don't know why you don't want to read it. You would save yourself a lot of time. It http://outreachjudaism.org/crucifixion-psalm/ - states : "Transforming kaari (כָּאֲרִי) into kaaru (כָּאֲרוּ) by changing the letters kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י), which means �like a lion,� into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), vav (ו) does not create the Hebrew word for �pierced,� as Rosen argues. In fact, kaaru doesn�t mean anything. In other words, this word kaaru does not exist in the Hebrew language; it�s little more than Semitic gibberish. Rosen�s claim that some anonymous scribe may have inadvertently changed kaaru into kaari is wholly unfounded and completely untenable. In order to concoct a word that resembles kaaru, you would not only have to change the letter yod into a vav, but the letter alef would have to be removed altogether. This alteration would create the three-letter word karu (כָּרוּ),spelled kaf, raish, vav. Karu, however, does not mean �pierced� either. It means to �excavate� or �dig.�" Also, the source says clearly what the actual Hebrew word for"pierce" is: "As mentioned, the words used in Tanach for �pierce� or �stab� are daqar
or ratza, never karu, which does not have the connotation of �piercing� �
as in puncturing flesh."
Only because Christians decided to try to manipulate the text in order to "prove" that the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in the Tanakh. But as has been pointed out by the website "Pascal's Wager", none of the New Testament authors saw fit to use this verse as a "prophecy": "One of the strongest arguments against the verse Psalm 22:16b being a prophecy of the crucifixion is the fact that none of the New Testament authors made any reference to it. This is extremely surprising if the Hebrew or the Greek of that verse was understood as "they pierce"..." It was only later Christians who appealed to this verse.
Again, if you had bothered to read the Jewish source I provided, you wouldn't be wasting time making these inaccurate statements. It already dealt with this issue and even provided a digital photograph of the scroll from Nahal Hever. It states: "Bear in mind that the Nahal Hever manuscripts are considerably younger than the Dead Sea Scrolls. While the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts predate the first Jewish War (66 CE), the manuscripts from Nahal Hever came from a later period; between the two Jewish Wars (between 70 CE and 135 CE). Despite the claims made by Professor Flint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, the passage in 5/6HevPs does not �unambiguously read pierced.�
The above image was digitally enhanced, and it is difficult to
discern by studying the faint, ancient text whether the word in question
ends in a elongated י (yud) or a shortened ו (vav). Unlike other
ancient texts, the writing on this script found at Nahal Hever is not
sharp or uniform. If, for argument�s sake, we conclude that the debated
word written in the Nahal Hever script is כארו (ka�aru), as Rosen and
Flint argue, it is obvious that this anomaly is the result of the
scribe�s poor handwriting or spelling mistake. There is clear evidence,
in fact, from an obvious spelling mistake in the script itself that the
second century scribe was not meticulous. The very next word after the
debated word is �my hands.� The Hebrew word in Psalm 22:17 is
ידי (yadai). The Nahal Hever scribe, however, misspelled this word [as
well][/as] by placing an extra letter ה (hey) at the end of the word.
Thus, the Nahal Hever 5/6HevPs reads ידיה instead of the correct ידי.
The Hebrew word ידיה (yadehah) means �her hands,� not �my hands.�"
Lions eat many things, not just lambs. You are simply reaching, trying to make a connection when there is none. If the psalm was meant to be a "prophecy" about the Messiah's crucifixion, it could have stated it plainly. Yet, we find that it neither mentions the Messiah nor even suggests his death on a cross. The only thing the psalm states is for God to deliver the speaker from his enemies. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 8:25pm
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Greetings islamispeace, Regarding your opening statement... Not at all. I read(not past tense) all the Jewish arguments as well. This is how I came to try and understand this word kaari, though it is neither of the words referenced in the Strong's concordance. You should not make assumptions. I always try to take a two-sided view of things. As my signature says; Let us seek Truth together. Now, if you have used only this one source, then you have not read far enough, because if you did you would find that the words 'they are at', have been added to try and make a nonsensical verse make sense. "...like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion�s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): �like a lion, so it would break all my bones.�" Precisely. Would a lion merely 'bite the hands and feet'? Do you think this is what the Romans observed when they fed Christians to the lions for public spectacle? I think a lion would care nothing for the hands and the feet but would crush and maul the whole body in its grasp. Have you ever seen a lion hunt? So I think there was a larger meaning meant to be conveyed. You don't have to accept it. As I said, I read many sources, including the one you provided, plus many others. The arguments all differ. The one you provided is not unbiased any more than the others are. We must remember that the Jew has a stake in disproving the claim to prophesy, even while the Christian has a stake in claiming the prophesy. There are many translations and many attempts at explanation. We each accept what we accept. I believe only Christ will have the answer. There is no question that Yshwe had His hands and His feet 'pierced', or bore through with nails. The meaning of the Psalm we will not know until we meet with the Messiah. It says enough for me. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: kometa2
Date Posted: 06 October 2014 at 12:49am
Psalm is a prophecy about Jesus. If you read
through this Psalm you will discover some amazing prophecies about the
crucifixion of Jesus.
This opening line are the exact words that Jesus uses when He is suffering on the cross a thousand years later (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34). He is crying out because of the separation that existed between Him and His father as He was being punished for the sins of all mankind.
Verses seven and eight describe the humiliation that he was subjected to while He was publicly suffering. Many who were standing by mocked him, challenging him to save himself saying �He saved others, let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God� (Luke 23:35). Verse 15 describes Him as being thirsty. Indeed, when Jesus was on the cross, He cried out in a loud voice: �I thirst� (John 19:28). Verse 16 predicts what the Roman soldiers would do to Jesus� hands and feet:
This perfectly describes Jesus� crucifixion, when the soldiers drove nails through His hands and His feet (John 20:25). Verse 17, the next verse, predicts Jesus naked as He is stretched on the cross:
Verse 18 predicts what the soldiers would do with Jesus� clothes:
We can see the fulfillment of verse 18 in the gospel of John:
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2014 at 4:58pm
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Assalamu Alaikum and my respects, muslims - you're missing the message, and your thinking is like the Romans of the time... they believed that by crucifying Yshwe they would prove that He was no Messiah... because no one would believe that the Messiah could be killed... they would naturally believe that Messiah would save Himself... this leads me to another thought... if the Messiah is believed to have these powers, then why does anyone deny that He is also God, or Son of God, One having the power of God? The message of Yshwe was in the resurrection... it was in the way Yshwe gave His life for us. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. the Word of Yshwe asalaam and blessings. Yshwe is the One that is expected, by both muslims and Christians, to return and judge the world... why would you not believe He is what He says He is... Son of God, One with God? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 03 December 2014 at 6:35pm
Show me where there is no contradiction in the Quran
Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:
Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.
Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.
When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.
When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus, too.
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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 11 December 2014 at 12:01pm
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 December 2014 at 7:11pm
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19:33 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! 19:34 Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (even Isa in the qur'an... as Muhammad gives it, says He will die and be raised alive, i.e., resurrected) ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 12 December 2014 at 12:52pm
There is one more powerful analogy I see as I look at the three crosses. Jesus is in the middle, at the very center of God's plan for redemption. Who is he? "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) It was only when Muhammad made himself a Prophet everything in the bible was wrong the Quran cotradicts the bible and disproofs everything what the bible said about Jesus.
There was many prophecies and witnesses about Jesus crucifixion even the the two thieves that was crucified with him.
Isaiah 53:12 says; "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors." There are scores of prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament. Some refer to his first coming and some refer to his second coming. Every one of them has either been fulfilled or will be when he comes again. Regarding his crucifixion, here are a couple more examples. Betrayal by a close friend is spoken of in Psalm 41:9; "Even my close friend, in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." Judas, one of his intimate circle and called as an apostle, betrayed Jesus to the Jewish government. (See Luke 22:47-48) Silence in the face of accusations was prophesied in Isaiah 53:7; "He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so He did not open His mouth." Mark 15:4 says; "And Pilate was questioning Him again, saying, 'Do You make no answer? See how many charges they bring against You!' But Jesus made no further answer; so that Pilate was amazed." One final example is that the Messiah would suffer no broken bones. "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken." (Psalm 34:20) Listen to the fulfillment in John 19:32-33; "The soldiers therefore came, and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other man who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs." Yes, the tender love of God is one lesson but there are others. Jesus also gave us a key to understanding grace when he said to the good thief; "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace and not by works and this is a perfect example of that. There was no time left for the thief to do anything in the way of making up for his sins or turning his life around. Yet Jesus told him TODAY he would be with him in paradise. It was the thief's heart condition that gave him instant access to eternity in heaven. There is one more powerful analogy I see as I look at the three crosses. Jesus is in the middle, at the very center of God's plan for redemption. Who is he? "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2014 at 9:42pm
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I say if, and this is a big IF, and this is what you must decide... Did Muhammad follow Jesus? Is he a prophet of God, or is he something else? ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: chalky
Date Posted: 16 December 2014 at 9:33am
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Yes, it's very had to understand how a book, the Quran, written 600 years after the event can seemingly change historical facts well attested in history.
Well, one supposes the only way to do this is to claim supernatural revelation but of course as soon as you do that one can claim almost anythng as truth. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 December 2014 at 3:10pm
Amigo, naive is your question. Prophets did not come to follow each other but rather who sent them, God Almighty. Jesus (pbuh) came to follow God and God's commands. Moses (pbuh) before that came to follow God and God's commands. for our era till the end Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) came to follow God and God's commands. All of them (pbut) were chosen by God as prophets. Is there any complication in that? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 31 December 2014 at 3:41am
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Jesus did show a few miracles but he did not do those on his own and he was not showing miracles night and day.
He had no power to do that. It was God, who worked those miracles through him. It means the power of God worked the miracles. Jesus IS NOT on record for making any of the following statements openly and publicly himself: "I am the Son of God." "I am God in flesh" or "I am God in person." "I am God incarnate." "I am the Father". "I am God" or "I am God almighty" . " I am the Messiah that you have waited for long." To say that Jesus was sinless is ridiculous as it shows as if all the Prophets of God were sinful and only this man was sinless. If he had said "I am God" or "I am the Father", he would either have lost his head or would have been stoned to pulp straight away. That Jesus was the Son of God or God, is a post-Jesus fraud by the Church founded by pagans, long after he was gone. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 December 2014 at 11:00pm
Greetings BMZSP, This raises for me the question... just why do you think the Jews wanted Yshwe crucified? asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 02 January 2015 at 9:20am
Wassalaam, Caringheart Jesus had challenged the authority of the hierarchy of the Sadducees and the Pharisees, had ridiculed and outsmarted them. The Romans also took note of that and feared a revolution like the one under bar Kochba. Both wanted him taken out. I believe it was then that God saved Jesus and delivered him to safety. |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 02 January 2015 at 9:30am
I will do your post in short bites as Ia m allergic to long-winded posts. Muhammad showed no miracles like Moses and Jesus. Tell me what good were the miracles shown by Jesus, when he was not recognised and was not accepted by the very people to whom God had sent him? God showed miracles through Moses, delivered the Hebrews all others and yet they rebelled against God and disobeyed God and Moses. Even their generations continued to disobey God. Right? God had shown miracles to men many times before. When Muhammad was sent to Arabs, it was time to reason and argue with man. That reasoning was done through Qur'aan and within the life time of the Prophet, the pagans accepted One God Almighty and the prophet, without a single miracle shown. |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 02 January 2015 at 9:37am
The problem is that he never said that he was God who came down to earth. He is on record for saying that on his own he could do nothing. Right? All false claims for his alleged divinity get busted and debunked by John 17:3, which clearly says: "John 17:3New American Standard Bible (NASB) This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." He wanted people to know only the true God, who had sent him. So, God was the sender and Jesus was the one who was sent to Israel. Jesus never said clearly or openly or publicly "I am God". He would have been stoned to death straight away if he had said that or would have been beheaded. |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 02 January 2015 at 9:51am
Revelation is irrelevant to me. It is a dejected man's dream. By the way, Revelation 1:8 is talking about the LORD God, not Jesus. "Revelation 1:8New American Standard Bible (NASB) 8 �I am the Alpha and the Omega,� says the Lord God, �who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.�" Jesus never introduced himself as 'the Lord God'. "The Father and I are one" simply means both were on the same side. Jesus did not say, "The Father and I are the one and the same person." While Jesus was talking to Thomas and others, Philip got bored and asked him to show the Father. That was very silly and st**id of Philip to demand that. Jesus scolded him but never said, "Philip, I am the Father'. Hebrews 1 is fraud and a forgery. The man who penned Hebrews wrote a few of his lines and copied and pasted from Psalms and other books. There is not even a single word from Jesus in Hebrews at all. |
Posted By: BMZSP
Date Posted: 02 January 2015 at 10:10am
The Torah never forbade polygamy and the Jews in Jesus' time had multiple wives. Before them the patriarchs had many wives, slave girls and concubines. Jesus confirmed himself that he was not there to change even an iota of the law. What did he know about the institution of marriage? The so-called Son of David knew that David had many and Solomon had numerous. I can say that God the Father and the Holy Spirit were also pedophiles, who overpowered a little innocent pre-pubescent girl and raped her. It is a false accusation against Muhammad. He married Ayesha when she was about eighteen. The Christian polemicist takes a rotten hadith and attack. The Prophet had many wives already. A pedophile does not stop at one child. Pedophilia is a Westerner's disease. What does this verse from John 20:17 show? "New American Standard Bible Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"" It shows that Jesus and the little Marmary Magdalene were lovers and were intimate. It also debunks and dismisses the myth that Jesus was God or the Father. How beautifully Jesus himself dismisses the great lie that he told Philip he was the Father! What spin can you put on this? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 January 2015 at 11:51am
Oh, but he was BMZSP! Who do you think the first followers of Yshwe were? They were Jews. And the greatest miracle of all... the resurrection of the Son won many hearts to God, and many more followers, both gentile and Jew.
Regarding this... Muhammad made the people he conquered give up their many gods and believe in just 'the god'... 'al Lah'..... and he had to take the Christian children in order to raise up a generation of muslims. If people transferred to the ways of Muhammad it was because he brought Christian values to the people and mixed it with other practices that the culture was familiar with. This is my belief. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 January 2015 at 12:42pm
Greetings BMZSP, 'I do the will of my Father who sent Me' (John 6) 'I and the Father are One' (John 10) Yshwe WAS God come down to earth... as hard as this concept is for muslims to understand, the Truth of it is in Yshwe's words, in the prior scriptures, and in the works of His life. 'if you do not believe Me, believe for the works sake' 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. the words of Yshwe
Which is precisely why He was always so considered in his replies, being deliberately evasive in His answers, knowing that anyone with wisdom could discern the answers for themselves... He knew that the Pharisees knew precisely who He claimed to be... any Jewish scholar could understand what Yshwe was saying through His words and His actions. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. (John 6) 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (John 10) asalaam and blessings, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 January 2015 at 12:51pm
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. asalaam and blessings,Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 January 2015 at 5:31pm
Greetings BMZSP, May I share with you, 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.... because the Jews understood that Yshwe was saying that He Himself was God. asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 January 2015 at 3:29pm
Amigo, it will be dishonesty to knowingly not quote the next few verses which disclose the true nature of your intended false claim. Here is the next verses: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John Chap 10). May God guide all those who truthfully seek Him. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |