Crucifixion of Jesus

islamispeace,

You obviously skipped a great deal of what was in my post,
or simply made no effort to comprehend

    And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.


8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?


Shall the Lord declare that your own right hand can save you?
Is it you, or He that has all knowledge of Himself?

asalaam,
CH

Greetings islamispeace,

Ok, so you tell me...
according to your qur'an...

Was Moses able to look upon the face of God?

Is anyone?

asalaam,
CH

note:
You were the one that asked about;

"And if God really loved us, why would He send His son to die for our sins?  Why didn't He come Himself?  If I loved someone, I wouldn't send my son to show my love.  I would go myself to the person I love. "

and yes, in the Biblical scriptures, God gives us the answers to your questions.

Peace and blessings to you.



Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 6:59pm

islamispeace wrote: You're still not answering my question.  Why can't you give a straight answer?  Why would God come down in the form of a man and worship Himself?  And is God His own "son"?  Was Jesus really the "son" or was he really the "Father"?    Regarding whether anyone can see God, you missed my point.  I am saying that God is certainly not incapable of of making someone "see" Him, if He wanted to do that.  Now, to answer your question, Moses (peace be upon him) was not able to look upon God.  But does that mean that had God wanted Moses to be able to look upon Him, that He couldn't actually do that?  I sure hope you don't think that God has limitations to His power.

Greetings islamispeace,

I answered your question,
then you re-phrase it.
How many times, and how many ways can I answer? 

Saint Patrick took a shamrock(a 3 leaf clover).  He said to the people,
"Am I ministering to one leaf or to three?"
The people answered, 'It is both one and three.'
"And so it is with God"

'do I worship one or three...
it is both one and three...'

Why do you not answer my question?
You said you are questioning the Bible.

so, according to your qur'an...

Was Moses able to look upon the face of God?
Is anyone?

No, God clearly states in the scriptures that He can not present Himself before us, as He is...
therefore He presents Himself as He can...
veiled...
from behind...
in a burning bush...
as the One we learn to call His Son, as He is Himself in the flesh... indwelt in human form... a biological unit.

No, He does not have limitations to His power... that is why He was able to come to us in the flesh
it is a limitation of humans to be able to withstand the fullness of His glory,

and so yes, He did show Himself to us, in the ways in which He could...
and Yshwe was the way He felt we would best be able to learn to follow Him.
Yshwe was the 'new thing God said He was going to do'...

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?

to come to us in the flesh.

islamispeace wrote: By the way, Muslims believe that in the afterlife, we will see God's "Face", as stated in a hadith from Sahih Bukhari: "Narrated Jarir: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him.""

Yes, it is in the Biblical scriptures;
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know [in full]

It's all there in the scriptures...
all the answers, to every thing, you ever need to know. 

asalaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 8:48pm

islamispeace wrote: No, you didn't answer my question.  You just went around in circles, as most Christians usually do.  If you can't provide logical and rational answers to my questions, don't blame me!

Aw... just when I get to thinking I like you, you have to go back to empty accusations. 

islamispeace wrote: As for your "shamrock" analogy, we have dealt with that before.  Remember this: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28565

Yes.
and how did you miss all this?


'for they think only with the mind of man'

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit�s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God�s power.  (NIV)

6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten.
7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God�his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began.
8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord.
9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

�What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived�
    the things God has prepared for those who love him" (this is from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 64)

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who knows a person�s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,
16 for,

�Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?� (from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 40)

But we have the mind of Christ.  (KJV)

islamispeace wrote: In all my years discussing with Christians, I have never been given a satisfactory explanation of the trinity.  It seems to me that Christians pretend that they understand the trinity, when they really don't. I have also never been given a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus worshiped God, when supposedly he was "God" himself.  In my view, any being who worships another being is not worthy of worship himself.

That just made me think of this;

¹⁷ And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Open your heart to the Holy Spirit. 

'allah reveals to whom what he will reveal'

allah does not reveal.  allah does not want you to know.

⁴ In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is the 'god of this world' who causes blindness

islamispeace wrote: Caringheart wrote: No, God clearly states in the scriptures that He can not present Himself before us, as He is... therefore He presents Himself as He can... veiled... from behind... in a burning bush... as the One we learn to call His Son, as He is Himself in the flesh... indwelt in human form... a biological unit. No, He does not have limitations to His power... that is why He was able to come to us in the flesh it is a limitation of humans to be able to withstand the fullness of His glory, This is what I mean by Christians going in circles and being incapable of providing a straight answer.  You first claim that God "cannot" present Himself before us, which would imply that He has "limitations".  Then you say that He has no "limitations" to His power, but that it is the "limitation of humans" that is at fault.  This explanation overlooks the fact that had God wanted to, He could have made us so that we could indeed "withstand the fullness of His glory".  Do you deny this?

Yes, I do deny this.  We are flesh and blood.  We do not know what form the Creator is of.  When we are no longer flesh and blood we will be able to be in His presence in the fullness of His glory, but not while we are flesh and blood.  We are that special creation of His... the biological form.
Obviously before the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, they were able to be in the presence of the Creator, so obviously something about their sin changed them to no longer be able to be in the presence of God.
Do we have any way of understanding what this thing, this change is... no... only if and when we rejoin our Creator will we have the fullness of understanding.

hehehe - as much as you feel I talk in circles, I feel the same about you. 


Peace and blessings,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 9:49pm