Crucifixion of Jesus |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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islamispeace,
You obviously skipped a great deal of what was in my post, or simply made no effort to comprehend And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Shall the Lord declare that your own right hand can save you? Is it you, or He that has all knowledge of Himself? asalaam, CH |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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You obviously did not get the point I was making, because you did the same exact thing that I was critiquing. Every "answer" you give is a cop-out, relying largely on circular logic. This latest post in just another example. You don't seem to realize that using the Bible to explain the Bible's contradictions and bizarre teachings does nothing. Case in point: Just because the Bible claims that God came down as a man does nothing to explain the absurd idea that as a "man", "God" worshiped Himself. Why would He do that? Your best answer to that question is "well, don't question God". What you don't get is that I am not questioning God. I am questioning the Bible. Edited by islamispeace - 26 September 2014 at 5:58pm |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings islamispeace,
Ok, so you tell me... according to your qur'an... Was Moses able to look upon the face of God? Is anyone? asalaam, CH note: You were the one that asked about; "And if God really loved us, why would He send His son to die for our sins? Why didn't He come Himself? If I loved someone, I wouldn't send my son to show my love. I would go myself to the person I love. " and yes, in the Biblical scriptures, God gives us the answers to your questions. Peace and blessings to you. Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 6:59pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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You're still not answering my question. Why can't you give a straight answer? Why would God come down in the form of a man and worship Himself? And is God His own "son"? Was Jesus really the "son" or was he really the "Father"? Regarding whether anyone can see God, you missed my point. I am saying that God is certainly not incapable of of making someone "see" Him, if He wanted to do that. Now, to answer your question, Moses (peace be upon him) was not able to look upon God. But does that mean that had God wanted Moses to be able to look upon Him, that He couldn't actually do that? I sure hope you don't think that God has limitations to His power. By the way, Muslims believe that in the afterlife, we will see God's "Face", as stated in a hadith from Sahih Bukhari: "Narrated Jarir: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."" |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings islamispeace, I answered your question, then you re-phrase it. How many times, and how many ways can I answer? Saint Patrick took a shamrock(a 3 leaf clover). He said to the people, "Am I ministering to one leaf or to three?" The people answered, 'It is both one and three.' "And so it is with God" 'do I worship one or three... it is both one and three...' Why do you not answer my question? You said you are questioning the Bible. so, according to your qur'an... Was Moses able to look upon the face of God? Is anyone? No, God clearly states in the scriptures that He can not present Himself before us, as He is... therefore He presents Himself as He can... veiled... from behind... in a burning bush... as the One we learn to call His Son, as He is Himself in the flesh... indwelt in human form... a biological unit. No, He does not have limitations to His power... that is why He was able to come to us in the flesh it is a limitation of humans to be able to withstand the fullness of His glory, and so yes, He did show Himself to us, in the ways in which He could... and Yshwe was the way He felt we would best be able to learn to follow Him. Yshwe was the 'new thing God said He was going to do'... 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? to come to us in the flesh.
Yes, it is in the Biblical scriptures; 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know [in full] It's all there in the scriptures... all the answers, to every thing, you ever need to know. asalaam, CH Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 8:48pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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No, you didn't answer my question. You just went around in circles, as most Christians usually do. If you can't provide logical and rational answers to my questions, don't blame me! As for your "shamrock" analogy, we have dealt with that before. Remember this: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28565 In all my years discussing with Christians, I have never been given a satisfactory explanation of the trinity. It seems to me that Christians pretend that they understand the trinity, when they really don't. I have also never been given a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus worshiped God, when supposedly he was "God" himself. In my view, any being who worships another being is not worthy of worship himself.
This is what I mean by Christians going in circles and being incapable of providing a straight answer. You first claim that God "cannot" present Himself before us, which would imply that He has "limitations". Then you say that He has no "limitations" to His power, but that it is the "limitation of humans" that is at fault. This explanation overlooks the fact that had God wanted to, He could have made us so that we could indeed "withstand the fullness of His glory". Do you deny this? The Bible (specifically the New Testament) has no answers, just bizarre concepts which defy logical explanation and require mental gymnastics to sustain. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Aw... just when I get to thinking I like you, you have to go back to empty accusations.
Yes. and how did you miss all this? Originally posted by Lachi islamispeace, do you understand God? Can you explain His nature? God is beyond human understanding, so do not point figure. 'for they think only with the mind of man' And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit�s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God�s power. (NIV) 6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God�his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, �What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived� the things God has prepared for those who love him" (this is from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 64) 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person�s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, �Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?� (from the scriptures of the prophet Isaiah, chapter 40) But we have the mind of Christ. (KJV)
That just made me think of this; 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Open your heart to the Holy Spirit.'allah reveals to whom what he will reveal' allah does not reveal. allah does not want you to know. 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. It is the 'god of this world' who causes blindness
Yes, I do deny this. We are flesh and blood. We do not know what form the Creator is of. When we are no longer flesh and blood we will be able to be in His presence in the fullness of His glory, but not while we are flesh and blood. We are that special creation of His... the biological form. Obviously before the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, they were able to be in the presence of the Creator, so obviously something about their sin changed them to no longer be able to be in the presence of God. Do we have any way of understanding what this thing, this change is... no... only if and when we rejoin our Creator will we have the fullness of understanding. hehehe - as much as you feel I talk in circles, I feel the same about you. Peace and blessings, CH Edited by Caringheart - 26 September 2014 at 9:49pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Yeah, I remember all that nonsense. It's what I have been saying all along. Christians have to resort to mental gymnastics. They have no answers. All they can do is run in circles. Has it ever occurred to you that the Bible's writers knew that the doctrine they were preaching made no sense, so they came up with nonsensical explanations about the "mind of Christ" and other ridiculous ideas? Has it ever occurred to you that these people wanted to keep you from questioning these things because they knew that anyone with a rational mind (a God-given rational mind) would see right through the contradictions in the Bible? What if you have been deceived?
More mental gymnastics. You have been deceived by Satan. That's why you can't provide a rational answer. On the Day of Judgment, you will have no excuse when you stand before Allah, the Lord of all. By the way, do you know what the origin is of the name "Yahweh"?
Wow! So you believe that God cannot make us look upon His "fullness" if He wanted! And once again, you appeal to the "we can't understand" argument. This is what I have been talking about! There is just no such thing as a straight answer from a Christian. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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