Will Muslims accept Jesus as thier saviour.

Power of GOD wrote: islamispeace wrote: islamispeace wrote: Caringheart wrote: Greetings islamispeace, ... different writers... different interpretation... different time and place... different word of mouth... still the same essential message   carried far and wide. asalaam and blessings. What a load of tripe!  It is not a "different interpretation" and so on.  It is a flat-out contradiction between supposed "inspired" documents.  The "centurion" either referred to Jesus as the "son of God" or as "a righteous man".  Your gospels can't even agree with each other on simple matters such as this.    Contradictory testimony at a trial usually leads a to mistrial.  When "witnesses" cannot agree on even simple issues, then what credibility do they really have?  What good are many "witnesses" if one says one thing and another says another thing?   The only thing that contradicts Jesus is the quran Muhammad has got his so called revalation without any witnesses that his so called angel was seen by other why must he always go the cave to receive his so called revelation where nobody can claim he was a liar.

Ron Webb wrote: islamispeace wrote: Changing the subject does not negate the clear fact that the Bible is self-contradictory. I find it hilarious that theists are so quick to point out contradictions in others' scriptures, but are totally blind to the flaws in their own. Certainly there are many contradictions in the Bible -- but then that is to be expected, because the Bible has many authors and does not claim to be the literal Word of God. Unlike the Quran, which is rife with contradictions as well.  Just one of dozens of examples: "Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve." (5:69) "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." (3:85) So should Caringheart have no fear, or is she one of the losers?

I find it hilarious that an ignoramus just doesn't learn his lesson and continues to try his luck and pretend like he knows what he is talking about! 

Now, let's see if the pretend Sheik completely missed the point of Surah 5:69 (Hint: Yes, he did! )

"O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.  Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.  Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.  They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.  They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (Surah Al-Maeda, 5:67-72)

As we can see, when read in context, the verse makes it very clear that the Jews, Christians and Sabians that it is referring to are those who lived before the coming of Islam and had believed in their prophets and scriptures and did not deviate by adopting false beliefs.  Those whose minds have not been befuddled by their own ignorance and st**idity can readily see this fact. 

Sorry, Sheik Ron!  You screwed up again!  This must be getting frustrating for you...     

islamispeace wrote: As we can see, when read in context, the verse makes it very clear that the Jews, Christians and Sabians that it is referring to are those who lived before the coming of Islam and had believed in their prophets and scriptures and did not deviate by adopting false beliefs.

Yes, you could probably resolve the contradiction by changing the verse from present tense to past tense, i.e., "believed" instead of "believe".  However, that isn't what 5:69 actually says, and no translation I know of has dared to make that change.  In fact, the Yusuf Ali translation adds the following footnote for emphasis: "As God's message is one, Islam recognizes true faith in other forms, provided that it be sincere, supported by reason, and backed up by righteous conduct."

By the way, there is a very similar verse at 2:62:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Again, present tense, not past tense; and this verse immediately follows a discussion of Moses.  I hope you're not going to claim that it refers only to Christians during the time of Moses.

islamispeace wrote: So, we can see that Sheik Ron never actually bothered to read Yusuf Ali's commentary.

No, I've never seen that commentary.  I was quoting the footnote in my own hard copy of the Quran, The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (third edition, 1938), a gift from my father-in-law.  I quoted the entire footnote except for a reference to another footnote about the Sabians.

Can you tell me who actually wrote the text you linked to?  It is evidently based on the Yusuf Ali translation, but it doesn't name the author or give the publication date.  It's also odd that the file name of the PDF doesn't match the title page (the "Glorious" Qur'an, versus the "Noble" Qur'an).

I'm assuming it's a later edition, in which Ali noticed the contradiction and tried to explain it away -- but it just won't work.  Like you, he wants to add stuff to the verses that simply isn't there.  Verse 5:69 is straightforward: righteous Jews and Christians shall have no fear or grief in the Hereafter.  That's what it says.  It doesn't say that they have to believe in Muhammad (which would be silly because Christians and Jews by definition don't believe in Muhammad); and it isn't limited to the period prior to Muhammad.  You can make up whatever you want, but it's not in the Quran.

Edited by Ron Webb - 26 July 2014 at 3:54pm