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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2015 at 2:29am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


     
Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'.


In the Qur'an the people of the book are only Jews and the Christians because they followed the Bible. But those people who have converted to Islam are referred to as people of the book as well to differentiate them.

Those who have converted to Islam, are called Muslims; no discrimination or distinction is required within Muslims as they become part of one Uma. Thus, when Quran specifically admonishes the 'People of the Book' for example, for killing their past Prophets or not adhering to the Word of God etc., do you think that those who had become Muslims among them, deserve such a treatment? Thus, my brother it is time to make correction in your understanding of Quran, otherwise, you need to provide a solid evidence to support your theory? May Allah guide us to the right path. Ameen!
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2015 at 7:42am
Ameen!
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2015 at 12:19pm
Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,
Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

(as recorded in the book of John, chapter 8)

How can a muslim claim to respect Yshwe when their leader, Muhammad, teaches the opposite of what Yshwe came to teach?



Edited by Caringheart - 10 December 2015 at 3:33pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2015 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2015 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,
The qur'an says:
24:2 "The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment."
so, 100 lashes, which is not the same as stoning.
The hadith do speak of stoning for adultery.

and there is this:

According to Umar (Muhammad's companion and Islam's second caliph) "[Allah] sent down the Book (Quran) upon him (Muhamad), and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him."  Umar went on to insist that "Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession." (Muslim 17:4194)

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." - Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:816, Sahih Muslim, 17:4194

According to a strong tradition (found in Sunan ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith no. 1934), Aisha also recalled the verse that prescribed the death penalty, rajm, for adulterers.  It was written on a palm leaf that was in her home following Muhammad's death, that apparently, according to Aisha, got eaten by a goat.

Apparently this verse did not make it into the final collection of the qur'an that was put together, though both Aisha and Umar were aware of its existence, and aware of the fact that Muhammad put it into practice himself.


No matter how you look at it... qur'an, hadith of Muhammad, or the recordings of Muhammad's enacted punishments...
  it is not the same as Yshwe taught.

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 09 December 2015 at 9:52pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2015 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:




Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.
Greetings AhmadJoyia,The qur'an says:
24:2 "The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye
each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you
from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of
believers witness their punishment."

so, 100 lashes, which is not the same as stoning.The hadith do speak of stoning for adultery.and there is this..........
Thanks for bringing both Quran and Hadith on the table, in this issue. Here we know that there can't be two punishments for the same crime. So, in essence, since Quran is very explicit in this issue, therefore Ahadith status is not acceptable about this crime. Secondly, it is very likely that the incidences of punishment of stoning that is being quoted in the Ahadith must have taken place prior to the revelations of clear verses in Quran. Therefore, IMHO, there is no stoning to death punishment in Islam. Those who still profess it, their logic to implement is not better than delusional.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2015 at 1:41am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:



Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.
<span id="en-KJV-26383" ="text="" john-8-1"=""><span ="chapternum"="">8�</span>Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26384" ="text="" john-8-2"=""><sup ="versenum"="">2�And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26385" ="text="" john-8-3"=""><sup ="versenum"="">3�And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26386" ="text="" john-8-4"=""><sup ="versenum"="">4�They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26387" ="text="" john-8-5"=""><sup ="versenum"="">5�Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26388" ="text="" john-8-6"=""><sup ="versenum"="">6�This
they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus
stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he
heard them not.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26389" ="text="" john-8-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7�So
when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto
them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26390" ="text="" john-8-8"=""><sup ="versenum"="">8�And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26391" ="text="" john-8-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9�And
they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out
one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was
left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26392" ="text="" john-8-10"=""><sup ="versenum"="">10�When
Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto
her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"=""><sup ="versenum"="">11�She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"="">(as recorded in the book of John, chapter 8)</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"="">How can a muslim claim to respect Yshwe when their leader, Muhammad, teaches the opposite of what Yshwe came to teach?</span>



Though I am not very fond of discussing things out of anonymous books, however, for this particular passage only, I can put my two coins into it:
1. First of all, I don't know who is Yshwe? Is he Jesus PBUH or someone else or same personality but with some other status? This is because I did not find it in English translated Bible that I have.
2. With this passage, what should I conclude about the Adultery in Christianity? Is it no more sinful? But if it is sinful, then what is its punishment? Is it no more stoning to death? Or it is totally abolished?
Your allusion that it is no more sinful, is not supported by your own text that you have quoted. Here are my arguments with the evidence from your own bible.
(a) Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Hence, total abolition of any law, and not just this one, is contrary to his own statement.
(b) In this passage, all we know is that Jesus took an exception in forgiving this lady, but did remind her not to do the adultery again by saying go, and sin no more This is only possible if Jesus still considered adultery to be sinful.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2015 at 10:31am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Though I am not very fond of discussing things out of anonymous books, however, for this particular passage only, I can put my two coins into it:
1. First of all, I don't know who is Yshwe? Is he Jesus PBUH or someone else or same personality but with some other status? This is because I did not find it in English translated Bible that I have.
2. With this passage, what should I conclude about the Adultery in Christianity? Is it no more sinful? But if it is sinful, then what is its punishment? Is it no more stoning to death? Or it is totally abolished?
Your allusion that it is no more sinful, is not supported by your own text that you have quoted. Here are my arguments with the evidence from your own bible.
(a) Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Hence, total abolition of any law, and not just this one, is contrary to his own statement.
(b) In this passage, all we know is that Jesus took an exception in forgiving this lady, but did remind her not to do the adultery again by saying go, and sin no more This is only possible if Jesus still considered adultery to be sinful.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Yes, I have come to the habit of rendering the name of the Messiah as it would have been rendered in His own time, and in His own language... Yshwe... to the best of my understanding.

It seems to me that Yshwe(known as Jesus) was teaching that no human being has the right to punish another human being for their personal sins, since we are all sinful beings.
Yshwe made a point of teaching that we are all sinful, as His Disciple John tells us;
 'if any claims not to have sin, he is a liar, and deceives himself'


Here is what I consider a good exposition on the subject:
 In saying, �Go and sin no more,� Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices. His words both extended mercy and demanded holiness. Jesus was always the perfect balance of �grace and truth� (John 1:14). With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness. Those who know God�s love will naturally want to obey Him (John 14:15).

 When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change (Luke 9:23; Acts 1:8).
 Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God�s path (Luke 14:27).

Yshwe fulfills the law in that, 'He' himself, is the forgiveness for sins...

what was He always telling people when He healed them?  He said to them, 'your sins are forgiven'.... this was to make the point... God has the power to forgive sins, and by turning to God and from sinful ways we are healed

instead of human punishment, we are afforded Divine forgiveness, healing from our wicked ways.

It is this mercy and grace... this depth of forgiveness... one man laying down His life for us... that changes us at the very depth of our being and leads us from sinfulness when we acknowledge the sacrifice that was made for our salvation. 
We are led to Love(which is God)
... for, 'we love because He first loved us', and 'there is no greater love than this, than a man lay down his life for another'.  (1 John 4, John 15)

This is the 'new thing' God promised in Isaiah 43;
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart




Edited by Caringheart - 12 December 2015 at 10:33am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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