Isaiah 53

Larry wrote: Hasan, Greetings.    Christians believe that Jesus Christ's death was necessary for the Salvation of all people, and without it made His life, ministry and death on earth without purpose. Jesus was a servant of God, but was also part of the substance that makes the Trinity of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.    Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" and in the Book of Revelation His role at the end of the world is shown. Revelation 5;1-13: (The Revelation of St. John) 1. "And I saw in the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" 3. And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. 4. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5. But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep, Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." 6. And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out to all the earth. 7. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne.. 8. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood. Out of every tribe and tongue and the people and nation, 10. And have made us kings (lit: "a kingdom") and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." 11. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands and thousands, 12. saying with a loud voice; "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13. And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever."    I know this is long but I think it illustrates much of what Christians believe in regard to Jesus Christ in His life on earth and His necessary death and resurrection, and subsequent role at the end of time with God in heaven as part of the single substance of the Holy Trinity.

Larry,
I do understand how Christians and Catholics believe about Jesus, God and Salvation. I have many people I know personally including my wife who had been Christians and Catholics all their lives. After becoming Muslims they tell me that before Islam the Trinity was the most mysterious things to them, which was to be believed. Most of them tell me that they had thought of Jesus as anything but not God. Now they feel at peace and know who each one of them is.

I understand for you to say, Jesus a servant of God, a lamb of God, and Jesus as God in one breath and don't seem to have any problems with that.  But on this end, to anyone like I who can easily distinguish between the Creator and the Created the distinction is clear between the two. The interesting thing is that the evidence does not support your understanding and claim even in your own source, the Bible.

Same goes for the salvation through his death, is also proven to be inconsistent with the Bible.

Hasan

Larry,
make me understand this, you say God came on earth as Jesus, and then you say, "as a human Jesus was a servant of God"
Do you see what I see?

Here in the South Texas and Mexico, by Christian it means Protestants and count different than Catholics, which is considered a separate religion.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 15 August 2010 at 5:47pm

Larry,
I did not mean it to make a technical issue. Among the Hispanics you have mostly Catholics. One becomes a "Christian" when he/she  leaves Catholicism and becomes an Evangelist for example. That's what they say it here in  South Texas and Mexico.
 
When I asked this question:
"make me understand this, you say God came to earth as Jesus, and then you say "as a human Jesus was a servant of God."

I wanted your personal answer, which was same as I know and heard before and it did not make sense.
Your answer failed to address the contradiction: God came on earth, you said. That means, according to you, he (Jesus) is a walking talking God. But you follow on to say " Jesus was a servant of God" and there you contradicted, because in opposition to your claim that  God came on earth as Jesus so he was a walking talking God, you slipped to say " Jesus was a servant of God" In one sentence you made him from God to servant of God. And that problem still remains in your explanation. You are either God, or servant of God. We know God is servant of none.
I don't think your explanation is weak rather it is the argument that is weak, rather contradictory. So whichever way you will describe it, and don't matter how long will you describe it, it will remain  contradictory, simply, as their is no complication in it for being so.

I certainly do not believe that God is blood thirsty and only a blood sacrifice will pay for sins, let alone to be killing himself, that is a problem in itself. Or killing his son, which has more problems: God does not have sons, if it has sons it is not God we are talking about. 

God, if want can forgive everyone and anyone without anything, because God is All Powerful. I believe that His forgiveness is open to those who seek it through exposing truth and certainly by not covering it.
God is Merciful and God does not punish parents for children or children for their parent's sins. Each one stand in front of the All knowing alone for what they do and intend.  Only those who live by truth and serve Him with action and intention will receive His forgiveness and will face Him with confidence on the Day of Grand Assembly. Once that time comes it cannot be reversed nor a second chance will be granted according to the Final Testament from God.
So we must be careful when we say or follow something because it will bear irreversible consequences that take us one way or the other that is Paradise or Hell fire.
May God forgive us our mistakes and guide us to the right, Ameen.
Peace,
Hasan

 


Edited by honeto - 18 August 2010 at 10:33pm

Perhaps the greatest of all Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures / the Old Testament) concerning the advent of the Jewish Messiah is found in the 53rd chapter of the prophet Isaiah. This section of the Prophets, also known as the “Suffering Servant,” has been long understood by the historical Rabbis of Judaism to speak of the Redeemer who will one day come to Zion. Here is a sampling of what Judaism has traditionally believed about the identity of the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53:

The Babylonian Talmud says: "The Messiah, what is his name? The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, ‘surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b).

Midrash Ruth Rabbah says: "Another explanation (of Ruth 2:14): He is speaking of king Messiah; ‘Come hither,' draw near to the throne; ‘and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; ‘and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.'"

The Targum Jonathan says: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong."

The Zohar says: "’He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"

The great (Rambam) Rabbi Moses Maimonides says: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zechariah 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."

Unfortunately, modern Rabbis of Judaism believe that the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 refers perhaps to Israel, or to Isaiah himself, or even Moses or another of the Jewish prophets. But Isaiah is clear - he speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded.

The second verse of Isaiah 53 confirms this clarity. The figure grows up as “a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground.” The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgment like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. King Messiah was to be that sprout.

Beyond doubt, the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 refers to Messiah. As Jesus Christ was rejected by his people and was made to suffer by them. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.

Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is One alone to whom this can refer, Jesus Christ!

Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, and the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin (Hebrew 2:17; 8:1). Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, is the one Isaiah foresaw.

Rabbi Moshe Kohen Ibn Crispin said, “This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah. This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so.