Isaiah 53
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Topic: Isaiah 53
Posted By: Douggg
Subject: Isaiah 53
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 11:29pm
Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:42pm
Well, if we are going to look at Isaiah 53, wouldn't it make sense to look at the whole chapter, instead of picking certain verses? Of course, what some people don't know is that the chapter actually begins as a part of Chapter 52, and it offers some interesting details about this "suffering servant":
14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
When was Jesus' "...visage so marred more than any man"? Continuing into Chapter 53:
2For he shall grow up
before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath
no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty
that we should desire him.
Since when did Jesus (pbuh) have "no form [or] comeliness"? He had the form of a human, did he not?
3He is despised and
rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid
as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him
not.
Since when was Jesus "despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows..."? Jesus is one of the most beloved men in history, alongside Moses and Muhammad (pbut)! When did people hide their faces from him? Even during his life, he was beloved by many people.
7He was oppressed, and he
was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth
not his mouth.
When did Jesus not say anything during his oppression? The Gospels tell us that he had a lot to say during his trial and subsequent "execution".
9And he made his grave
with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no
violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Since when was Jesus (pbuh) buried with the "wicked". According to the Gospels, he was buried in an empty tomb.
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 3:06am
 islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
|
Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 2:03pm
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
|
Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
 Oh come on Douggie! Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed. Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not. People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest.
Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked." This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb. Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus. For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 10:07pm
islamispeace wrote:
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
|
Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
Oh come on Douggie! Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed. Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not. People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest.
Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked." This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb. Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus. For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.
|
Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.
Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person? That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.
Doug L.
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 2:11pm
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
|
Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
Oh come on Douggie! Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed. Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not. People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest.
Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked." This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb. Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus. For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.
|
Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.
Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person? That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.
Doug L.
|
That's exactly what it is! A coincidence! You want us to concentrate on one out of context verse, as if it proves that the suffering servant is Jesus (pbuh). The reality is that when read in context, it is obviously not talking about Jesus. You keep ignoring the fundamental problem facing the Christian theory, which is that when read in context, the chapter simply does not fit with the Gospel accounts of Jesus. Jesus was not buried with the wicked. He was buried alone in an empty tomb. Once you get through your head, you will realize that Isaiah 53 cannot be talking about Jesus as he is presented in the New Testament.
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 3:28pm
islamispeace wrote:
Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.
Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person? That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.
Doug L.
|
That's exactly what it is! A coincidence! You want us to concentrate on one out of context verse, as if it proves that the suffering servant is Jesus (pbuh). The reality is that when read in context, it is obviously not talking about Jesus. You keep ignoring the fundamental problem facing the Christian theory, which is that when read in context, the chapter simply does not fit with the Gospel accounts of Jesus. Jesus was not buried with the wicked. He was buried alone in an empty tomb. Once you get through your head, you will realize that Isaiah 53 cannot be talking about Jesus as he is presented in the New Testament.
|
I haven't even responded to your challenges regarding the wicked and rich because I wanted you see that Islam is a false religion no matter who the person in Isaiah 53 is. Islam has no provision for your god allah to lay all the sins of everyone else on that one person in Isaiah 53. Which makes Islam a false religion. And doubly false because that person is Jesus and Islam says that Jesus didn't die.
Why do you think that there is so much emphasis in Islam that Jesus didn't die on the cross? In who's interest would that be?
Even so, I don't know why you think that Jesus made his grave with the wicked and the rich in his death is a problem for Christians.
Joseph of Arimathaea, a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:47), he himself laid Jesus in his own new tomb.
Joseph was rich, as it was explicitly says in Matthew 27:47. Jesus died between two thiefs.
We aren't told either way in the new testament, whether the location of Joseph's tomb was in an area where the wicked (who were also rich) had their tombs or burial chambers as well. So that is not a proof that the person in Isaiah 53 was not Jesus.
Isaiah 53 doesn't mean that Jesus had to be buried in a tomb along with someone else in the same tomb. It is the area where the tomb was located, and that Jesus died among two thieves, that fulfilled the prophecy.
Doug L.
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 2:22pm
| I haven't even responded to your challenges regarding the wicked and
rich because I wanted you see that Islam is a false religion no matter who the person in Isaiah 53 is.
Islam has no provision for your god allah to lay all the sins of
everyone else on that one person in Isaiah 53. Which makes Islam a
false religion. And doubly false because that person is Jesus and
Islam says that Jesus didn't die. |
That is of course a ridiculous assumption because you have not demonstrated that the chapter is even talking about a person, let alone Jesus. So how does that make Islam a false religion?
| Why do you think that there is so much emphasis in Islam that Jesus didn't die on the cross? In who's interest would that be? |
It would be in the interest of truth, obviously. It would be in the interest of those billions of souls which have been deceived into believing that they are "saved" because an innocent Jewish man was nailed to a cross.
| Even so, I don't know why you think that Jesus made his grave with the
wicked and the rich in his death is a problem for Christians. |
Um, because that is what Isaiah 53 says about the "suffering servant"? Duh!
Joseph of Arimathaea, a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:47), he himself laid Jesus in his own new tomb.
Joseph was rich, as it was explicitly says in Matthew 27:47. Jesus died between two thiefs. |
Jesus (pbuh) dying between two thieves is not a fulfillment of Isaiah 53 which says that the servant would make his grave with the wicked, meaning he will be buried with the wicked. In fact, the chapter says that the servant would die with the rich. So, if Jesus had been crucified between two rich men and then buried in a tomb of criminals or sinners, than it would be a fulfillment of the chapter. But, this is not what happened, according to the Gospels. Therefore, Isaiah 53 is not talking about Jesus.
| We aren't told either way in the new testament, whether the location of
Joseph's tomb was in an area where the wicked (who were also rich) had
their tombs or burial chambers as well. So that is not a proof that
the person in Isaiah 53 was not Jesus. |
Well, then not enough information is given by the NT to say with 100% certainty that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus. This is a matter of grave importance and one which cannot be glossed over by blind faith. See, Douggie, I am not going to believe you just because you blindly believe what your preachers have told you. I use my God-given reason and the God-given Quran to distinguish truth from falsehood. The ramblings of some "the end is near" nut are not going to convince me.
| Isaiah 53 doesn't mean that Jesus had to be buried in a tomb along with
someone else in the same tomb. It is the area where the tomb was
located, and that Jesus died among two thieves, that fulfilled the
prophecy. |
Isaiah 53 says that the servant would die with the rich. Therefore, either it is a false prophecy or the Gospel accounts of Jesus' crucifixion are wrong. Either way, it is problem for Christians, not Muslims! 
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 July 2010 at 4:13pm
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
|
Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
Doug,
you are the one in problem not anyone else, let me show you how:
You say: "1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried"
Aren't you the one who believe Jesus to be God? if so what you are saying is that your God is dead and buried? You don't make sense with that.
You also quoted: "2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus"
I am sorry but that contradicts with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the Bible. Let me quote:
Matthew 12:36 (King James Version)
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/King-James-Version-KJV-Bible/ - King James Version (KJV)
If he was to bear the sins of all, the above verse would not have been said. Here is another one that contradicts your quote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5:30&version=NIV - Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
So, my friend in order for something to be valid, it must not contradict within. We saw that what you quoted and what I quoted did contradict, and both those quotes came from one source, the Bible. I don't know for you, but for me there is nothing confusing or unclear.
Oh, and here is something interesting for you, because you said: " Jesus is buried" when you quoted Isaiah.
The NT says he is not and was raised to heaven!
Acts 1
:1"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven,"
Hasan
-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 30 July 2010 at 1:12am
Hi Hasan  ,
honeto wrote:
Doug,
you are the one in problem not anyone else, let me show you how:
You say: "1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried"
Aren't you the one who believe Jesus to be God? if so what you are saying is that your God is dead and buried? You don't make sense with that. |
God did not die and cannot die. Can God give someone else to pay for your sins? No, so He gave Himself as Jesus, the son of Mary, the Son of Man, the Son of God, upon whom God laid all of our iniquities. Our part is to accept it. First though, before we can reach that point, we have to come to grips with the hopelessness of our situation.
You also quoted: "2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus"
I am sorry but that contradicts with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the Bible. Let me quote:
Matthew 12:36 (King James Version)
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/King-James-Version-KJV-Bible/ - King James Version (KJV)
If he was to bear the sins of all, the above verse would not have been said. |
Hasan, the above verse is what will happen if we don't accept Jesus's death and resurrection as God's plan to redeem us from our sins, such as the sins Jesus addressed above.
You list a couple passages of specific sins. We are all 100% guilty of all sorts of sin. Which we can either face God at the judgment if we die in our sins.
Or getting them all washed away before the judgment, and not having to face that judgment, by accepting Jesus's death and resurrection which removes all of our sins as though they never happened.
Do you believe that Satan is the enemy to your soul?
If so, then would he want all of your sins washed away? Would he do everything possible to get you not to take God's offer? Satan has no answer to the power of the cross and resurrection.
Here is another one that contradicts your quote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5:30&version=NIV - Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
So, my friend in order for something to be valid, it must not contradict within. We saw that what you quoted and what I quoted did contradict, and both those quotes came from one source, the Bible. I don't know for you, but for me there is nothing confusing or unclear. |
Hasan, you ar not getting it. Jesus gave example, after example of our sinful situation, over the course of his three years of preaching. You are highlighting a couple of specifics. I can assure that there is no limit to the sins that we commit. Jesus didn't list them all. Not a single person is innocent.
Oh, and here is something interesting for you, because you said: " Jesus is buried" when you quoted Isaiah.
The NT says he is not and was raised to heaven!
Acts 1
:1"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven," |
It is not a problem, Hasan. Jesus taught the disciples after the resurrection right up to the day he ascended. Here is Luke 24, Jesus taught them (verse 45) right up to him ascending into heaven (verse 51).
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Doug L.
|
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 July 2010 at 1:58pm
Brother Hasan, you make some good points. If he was God, Jesus would not be buried. And actually, the Gospels state that his "burial" was only temporary, as his body disappeared and he eventually ascended to heaven. This is of course contradicting Isaiah 53 also.
-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
|
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 1:11pm
To Doug L.
Visit:
http://answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm - The
false interpretation of Isaiah 53 and the lies in the
English translations! Isaiah 52:13
further
debunks the
crucifixion lie and proves the
Islam's Claims.
|
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 5:09pm
Mansoor_ali wrote:
To Doug L.
Visit:
http://answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm - The
false interpretation of Isaiah 53 and the lies in the
English translations! Isaiah 52:13
further
debunks the
crucifixion lie and proves the
Islam's Claims.
|
Hi Mansoor, I went to look at that site. It appears to me that the author admits that the person in Isaiah 53 is Jesus. Do you agree with that?
Some of your fellow muslims here have suggested that Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus. It's okay. I don't expect uniformity from muslims on all topics.
Okay, back to the link.
The author claims in his main point that the wounds doesn't mean death, thus Jesus did not die on the cross.
However, the author is wrong about the wounds because those come from the nails driven in Jesus's hands and feet as he was nailed to the cross. Jesus was also pierced with a spear in his side after he had died (John 20:34).
In his resurrected body, Jesus showed the disciples those wounds which were positive identification that it was he.
John 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
The other points of the author are way too lengthily from me to answer each one. What I didn't see was anything by the author.... that all of our iniquities, as it say in Isaiah 53, were laid upon Jesus (who the author concedes Ishaiah 53 is about Jesus).
This a big time problem for Islam, that someone esle bears the iniquities (sins) of us all. Did you read anything at that link that addressed that issue?
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
|
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 5:10pm
Douggg wrote:
Hi Hasan ,
honeto wrote:
Doug,
you are the one in problem not anyone else, let me show you how:
You say: "1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried"
Aren't you the one who believe Jesus to be God? if so what you are saying is that your God is dead and buried? You don't make sense with that. |
God did not die and cannot die. Can God give someone else to pay for your sins? No, so He gave Himself as Jesus, the son of Mary, the Son of Man, the Son of God, upon whom God laid all of our iniquities. Our part is to accept it. First though, before we can reach that point, we have to come to grips with the hopelessness of our situation.
You also quoted: "2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus"
I am sorry but that contradicts with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the Bible. Let me quote:
Matthew 12:36 (King James Version)
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/King-James-Version-KJV-Bible/ - King James Version (KJV)
If he was to bear the sins of all, the above verse would not have been said. |
Hasan, the above verse is what will happen if we don't accept Jesus's death and resurrection as God's plan to redeem us from our sins, such as the sins Jesus addressed above.
You list a couple passages of specific sins. We are all 100% guilty of all sorts of sin. Which we can either face God at the judgment if we die in our sins.
Or getting them all washed away before the judgment, and not having to face that judgment, by accepting Jesus's death and resurrection which removes all of our sins as though they never happened.
Do you believe that Satan is the enemy to your soul?
If so, then would he want all of your sins washed away? Would he do everything possible to get you not to take God's offer? Satan has no answer to the power of the cross and resurrection.
Here is another one that contradicts your quote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5:30&version=NIV - Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
So, my friend in order for something to be valid, it must not contradict within. We saw that what you quoted and what I quoted did contradict, and both those quotes came from one source, the Bible. I don't know for you, but for me there is nothing confusing or unclear. |
Hasan, you ar not getting it. Jesus gave example, after example of our sinful situation, over the course of his three years of preaching. You are highlighting a couple of specifics. I can assure that there is no limit to the sins that we commit. Jesus didn't list them all. Not a single person is innocent.
Oh, and here is something interesting for you, because you said: " Jesus is buried" when you quoted Isaiah.
The NT says he is not and was raised to heaven!
Acts 1
:1"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven," |
It is not a problem, Hasan. Jesus taught the disciples after the resurrection right up to the day he ascended. Here is Luke 24, Jesus taught them (verse 45) right up to him ascending into heaven (verse 51).
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Doug L.
|
Doug,
by God you are acting like a blind person, let me show you how:
You say God cannot die, then you say "He (God) gave himself to, upon whom laid all of our iniquities"
You have just said that God cannot die, and God died in a single sentence, in a single breath you uttered the biggest contradiction ever with the biggest consequences, but you cannot calibrate it now, just wait when you will not be given a chance to correct it, you will be told, its too late. I hope and pray that God guide you and you take that chance while you are able to.
About Matthew 12:36, you say it is for those who don't accept Jesus. I don't see Jesus said that, you are saying that. He said simply what what i quoted that "36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.� These are the words of the New Living Translation Bible.
It is true that we sin all the time, knowing and unknowingly, but it is our intention that count. If we have intention of covering up the truth, no way we can make it. Also, the Merciful God is not blood thirsty so require blood for salvation. Also God is in command without any limitations, if He wants to forgive, it's easy as saying 'be' and it is done. But He is a Just God also, and will hold us responsible for our choices, good or bad and will reward what each one of us Justly earned. God's Mercy and forgiveness will be for those who did not deny Him or His rightful position, humbled themselves in front of Him, obeyed Him, and seek His guidance, help, Mercy and Forgiveness. To them God will forgive their mistakes and admit them in Heaven and provide for them what is Good, forever. This will be their reward for standing up for the truth and making the effort to please their maker by obeying His commands.
Hasan
-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 6:28pm
Doug,
by God you are acting like a blind person, let me show you how:
You say God cannot die, then you say "He (God) gave himself to, upon whom laid all of our iniquities"
You have just said that God cannot die, and God died in a single sentence, in a single breath you uttered the biggest contradiction ever with the biggest consequences, but you cannot calibrate it now, just wait when you will not be given a chance to correct it, you will be told, its too late. I hope and pray that God guide you and you take that chance while you are able to. |
Hi Hasan, in reference to your text that I underlined.
Coming from a muslim, too. Muslims say allah means God. Okay, someone wants to become a musim so he begins the conversion statement... "There is not any God but God..." No, no, a muslim says.. "There is not any God but allah."
So what is your reasoning to complain to me about my statement, when muslims say allah is word for God, but God is not God in muslim conversion statement? 
Okay, back to sanity. God entered this world to fulfill the role of the messiah, who has to be the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman can die. You acknowledge that seed of the woman can die, right? As the seed of the woman, the flesh that God became (without Him stopped being God) in the role of the messiah, Jesus died on the cross.
In the role of the messiah, of the seed of the woman, God limited Himself to be exposed to all the temptations of being a man (not Adam man), and the sufferings and pains. But he never stopped being God.
About Matthew 12:36, you say it is for those who don't accept Jesus. I don't see Jesus said that, you are saying that. He said simply what what i quoted that "36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.� These are the words of the New Living Translation Bible.
It is true that we sin all the time, knowing and unknowingly, but it is our intention that count. If we have intention of covering up the truth, no way we can make it. Also, the Merciful God is not blood thirsty so require blood for salvation. Also God is in command without any limitations, if He wants to forgive, it's easy as saying 'be' and it is done. But He is a Just God also, and will hold us responsible for our choices, good or bad and will reward what each one of us Justly earned. God's Mercy and forgiveness will be for those who did not deny Him or His rightful position, humbled themselves in front of Him, obeyed Him, and seek His guidance, help, Mercy and Forgiveness. To them God will forgive their mistakes and admit them in Heaven and provide for them what is Good, forever. This will be their reward for standing up for the truth and making the effort to please their maker by obeying His commands.
Hasan
|
Hasan, I underlined some of your text. No, it's not that simple. God cannot just forgive us of our sins (plus, by itself, it doesn't really make changes to our nature) because the other factor is that God is also just. How can God destroy Satan for his sins, and let others go...and still be just?
Eternal damnation was never intended for man, but for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God.
Satan's ploy was to infect man with sin, which he did, knowing that God could not judge him (Satan) without God judging man as well.
Why, do you think Satan accuses us night and day?
Look what it says in Revelation 12. This happens about halfway through the soon-to-come 7 years of the Antichrist. But it reveals that Satan, the accuser, just like back in Job, is accusing each of us for our sins night and day. Why so? Because he doesn't want God to destroy him without having to destroy us as well.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice
saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom
of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren
is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Because the destiny of Satan has been set, God has provided us, who He loves, a way out from the same destiny... by the cross and resurrection, which satisfies God's justice.
But if we reject God's way, then God is going to dish out the same punishment for those who have sinned against Him (which is everyone), as Satan is going to get. God is most merciful, but he is not going to compromise his character a just God.
The koran, by muslim admission, originated from an angel of light claiming to be Gabriel - which muslims can't see through that it was Satan, just as he disguised himself as the serpent in the garden, to Eve. That's why the koran is so intense about denying that Jesus dying on the cross and
resurrected. Muslims, unwittingly, are Satan's hostages which he hopes that God is not going to destroy him without eternally destroying muslims.
But it's not going to work out that way for Satan, and God is going to judge Satan's religion, Islam, at Gog/Magog.
For now, I don't think many muslims are willing to open their eyes to Gog/Magog is all about destroying Islam. Maybe some will, I don't know. So we will have to wait. But not for long, I am confident.
Doug L.
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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 1:40pm
Douggg, your responses continue to be obsessed with one specific out of context verse from Isaiah 53. The chapter is not talking about Jesus, at least not the Jesus of the Gospels. Get over it.
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 August 2010 at 10:00pm
Douggg wrote:
Doug,
by God you are acting like a blind person, let me show you how:
You say God cannot die, then you say "He (God) gave himself to, upon whom laid all of our iniquities"
You have just said that God cannot die, and God died in a single sentence, in a single breath you uttered the biggest contradiction ever with the biggest consequences, but you cannot calibrate it now, just wait when you will not be given a chance to correct it, you will be told, its too late. I hope and pray that God guide you and you take that chance while you are able to. |
Hi Hasan, in reference to your text that I underlined.
Coming from a muslim, too. Muslims say allah means God. Okay, someone wants to become a musim so he begins the conversion statement... "There is not any God but God..." No, no, a muslim says.. "There is not any God but allah."
So what is your reasoning to complain to me about my statement, when muslims say allah is word for God, but God is not God in muslim conversion statement?
Okay, back to sanity. God entered this world to fulfill the role of the messiah, who has to be the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman can die. You acknowledge that seed of the woman can die, right? As the seed of the woman, the flesh that God became (without Him stopped being God) in the role of the messiah, Jesus died on the cross.
In the role of the messiah, of the seed of the woman, God limited Himself to be exposed to all the temptations of being a man (not Adam man), and the sufferings and pains. But he never stopped being God.
About Matthew 12:36, you say it is for those who don't accept Jesus. I don't see Jesus said that, you are saying that. He said simply what what i quoted that "36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.� These are the words of the New Living Translation Bible.
It is true that we sin all the time, knowing and unknowingly, but it is our intention that count. If we have intention of covering up the truth, no way we can make it. Also, the Merciful God is not blood thirsty so require blood for salvation. Also God is in command without any limitations, if He wants to forgive, it's easy as saying 'be' and it is done. But He is a Just God also, and will hold us responsible for our choices, good or bad and will reward what each one of us Justly earned. God's Mercy and forgiveness will be for those who did not deny Him or His rightful position, humbled themselves in front of Him, obeyed Him, and seek His guidance, help, Mercy and Forgiveness. To them God will forgive their mistakes and admit them in Heaven and provide for them what is Good, forever. This will be their reward for standing up for the truth and making the effort to please their maker by obeying His commands.
Hasan
|
Hasan, I underlined some of your text. No, it's not that simple. God cannot just forgive us of our sins (plus, by itself, it doesn't really make changes to our nature) because the other factor is that God is also just. How can God destroy Satan for his sins, and let others go...and still be just?
Eternal damnation was never intended for man, but for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God.
Satan's ploy was to infect man with sin, which he did, knowing that God could not judge him (Satan) without God judging man as well.
Why, do you think Satan accuses us night and day?
Look what it says in Revelation 12. This happens about halfway through the soon-to-come 7 years of the Antichrist. But it reveals that Satan, the accuser, just like back in Job, is accusing each of us for our sins night and day. Why so? Because he doesn't want God to destroy him without having to destroy us as well.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice
saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom
of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren
is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Because the destiny of Satan has been set, God has provided us, who He loves, a way out from the same destiny... by the cross and resurrection, which satisfies God's justice.
But if we reject God's way, then God is going to dish out the same punishment for those who have sinned against Him (which is everyone), as Satan is going to get. God is most merciful, but he is not going to compromise his character a just God.
The koran, by muslim admission, originated from an angel of light claiming to be Gabriel - which muslims can't see through that it was Satan, just as he disguised himself as the serpent in the garden, to Eve. That's why the koran is so intense about denying that Jesus dying on the cross and
resurrected. Muslims, unwittingly, are Satan's hostages which he hopes that God is not going to destroy him without eternally destroying muslims.
But it's not going to work out that way for Satan, and God is going to judge Satan's religion, Islam, at Gog/Magog.
For now, I don't think many muslims are willing to open their eyes to Gog/Magog is all about destroying Islam. Maybe some will, I don't know. So we will have to wait. But not for long, I am confident.
Doug L.
|
Doug,
you still don't make sense. I am asking you a simple thing and you are tangling it by writing this and that big and small, to do what? confuse yourself.
I am still to the point, where you said: " God cannot die," then you say "He (God) gave himself to, upon whom laid all of our iniquities"
You have just said that God cannot die, and God died in a single sentence, in a single breath you uttered the biggest contradiction ever with the biggest consequences, but you cannot calibrate it now,
Can you address that rather then jumping on to a banana tree
I think you need to show a bit more knowledge than what you portray of Islam. The Shahada, or the testament of faith, does not translate as you did. The real translation in Islamic context is somewhat like this since the translation cannot represent the true beauty of the original language, Arabic in this case. What it means is that " there are no gods, which due to English rules is changed to "there is no god", but real meaning of Shahada is that there are no gods, but One God (who is called Allah by not just Muslims but Christians, Jews who use Arabic as their language.) It is same God that Jesus called upon according to the present versions of the Bible,(Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46) Eloi, Eloi, in His native Aramaic which is sister language to Arabic.
So in essence, the Shahada is, first declaring that there are no other gods, but God Almighty (Allah), and Mohammed (pbuh) is God's messenger. Remember the acknowledgment of the prophet as the messenger is to clarify his true position and not to be taken as anyone more than that, like some Christians did with Jesus (pbuh). It is also an acknowledgment that this guidance to the worship of God only is brought to us by a man, a prophet (pbuh).
So, even as a reality all those who reject other gods and believe in one and only God actually profess the Shahada as in Islam, even though their perception or understanding of God may be different. Thus it needs a teacher from God to tell us how to correctly straighten our understanding and perception about our maker. And God has done that many times, through teacher or prophets. Mohammed (pbuh) was the last prophet who taught us and corrected our direction in knowing, understanding, and worshipping God, for our own good.
Hasan
-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
Posted By: Maymunah
Date Posted: 06 August 2010 at 1:12am
Isaiah 53 is most certainly written about Jesus; in fact most of Isaiah is "prophetic" in nature and about the suffering servant to come "Jesus" "Issa" or "Yahshua".
Because it is prophetic in nature, it takes wisdom to understand, not rational:
14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
The form of Jesus must have been something to see! He was born of a virgin; documented in both Quran and Bible. But his visage, or countenance was marred because his entire life and mission was due to the sin of the people. (he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel)
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him
"The root out of dry ground represents Israel"-the root from which he came as a tender plant. God created him NOT to be desired, because his mission was not to live as we do, marrying and bearing children, he had one sole mission and if he were beautiful, this might have caused him to deter.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
He was despised and rejected by the people in which he was sent to! If you read through and through the Gospels, you will see that mos of the crowds and people who followed him were outside of the nation of Israel! Isaiah is a Hebrew prophet, thus is why he writes..."WE" hid as it were out faces and "WE" esteemed him not (for example when I'm speaking as a whole about my family or the Muslims I say "WE")
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
During the heavy trial and beating and mocking, Jesus said nothing, he was questioned over and over but did not argue or speak out. This in itself is oppression.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Jesus committed no sin, but rather he took upon himself (as martyr) the sins of his people and those who believe. It's similar to those who do no wrong but give their lives for a cause or for another, but in a much deeper level and grander way of course.
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Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 August 2010 at 5:22am
To Douggg
Visit:
http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/a-critical-study-of-isaiah-53/ -
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Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 07 August 2010 at 10:01am
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 3:50am
Maymunah wrote:
Isaiah 53 is most certainly written about Jesus; in fact most of Isaiah is "prophetic" in nature and about the suffering servant to come "Jesus" "Issa" or "Yahshua".
Because it is prophetic in nature, it takes wisdom to understand, not rational:
14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
The form of Jesus must have been something to see! He was born of a virgin; documented in both Quran and Bible. But his visage, or countenance was marred because his entire life and mission was due to the sin of the people. (he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel)
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him
"The root out of dry ground represents Israel"-the root from which he came as a tender plant. God created him NOT to be desired, because his mission was not to live as we do, marrying and bearing children, he had one sole mission and if he were beautiful, this might have caused him to deter.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
He was despised and rejected by the people in which he was sent to! If you read through and through the Gospels, you will see that mos of the crowds and people who followed him were outside of the nation of Israel! Isaiah is a Hebrew prophet, thus is why he writes..."WE" hid as it were out faces and "WE" esteemed him not (for example when I'm speaking as a whole about my family or the Muslims I say "WE")
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
During the heavy trial and beating and mocking, Jesus said nothing, he was questioned over and over but did not argue or speak out. This in itself is oppression.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Jesus committed no sin, but rather he took upon himself (as martyr) the sins of his people and those who believe. It's similar to those who do no wrong but give their lives for a cause or for another, but in a much deeper level and grander way of course.
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Hi Maymunah,
What about the part in Isaiah 53 about the suffering
servant dying?
53:9 And he made his grave with the
wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Islam says that Jesus did not die, but that God took him to heaven without him dying.
So Islam's position does not match up with Isaiah 53. I think I read where you indicated that you are a relatively new muslim? Are you aware of Islam's denial of both the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Doug L.
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Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 6:20am
Isaiah Chapter 53, Verse 1: (New King James Version) "Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Verse 2: "For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form (literally "splendor") or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty (lit. "appearance") that we should desire Him.
So the word "form" is not referring to his shape but to His appearance.
Verse3: "He is despised and rejected (lit: "forsaken) by men. A Man of sorrows (lit: "pains") and acquainted with grief (lit: "sickness"). And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised and we did not esteem Him."
The point you are missing when you say that Jesus "is one of the most beloved men in history" is that Isaiah was a Jew and was referring to Christ's rejection by the Jews as the Messiah. The Temple priests especially despised Him and eventually went to Pilate to demand his execution for blasphemy.
Verse 4: "Surely He has borne our griefs (lit: "sicknesses") And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed (lit: "reckoned") Him stricken. Smitten by God, and afflicted.
Verse 5: "But He was wounded (lit: "pierced through") for our transgressions. He was bruised (lit: "crushed") for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes (lit: "blows that cut in") we are healed.
Verse 7: "He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not his mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth."
Mark 15: 1. "Immediately in the morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council; and they bound Jesus, led Him away, and delivered Him to Pilate. 2. Then Pilate asked Him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered and said to him, "It is as you say." 3. And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing. 4. Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, "Do You answer nothing? See how many things they testify against You!" 5. But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.
Matthew 27: 11. Now Jesus stood before the governor, And the governor asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." 12. And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing. 13. Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?" 14. But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly."
Isaiah 53: 9. "And they (lit: "he or He") made His grave with the wicked - But with the rich at His death. Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth."
"...Made his grave with the wicked," This refers to the two criminals that He was crucified with. "and with the rich in His death..." Because He was buried in the new tomb of a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea.
The point of all this is that Isaiah, writing 700 years before Jesus, could predict so accurately the happenings surrounding the life, trial, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The idea that Isaiah was referring to anyone BUT Jesus is absurd. The paralells are not just striking, they are in a way almost miraculous in their accuracy.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:23pm
To Doug and Larry,
good to see you Larry again. I know Doug's understanding that Jesus was God, I am not sure Larry if you agree with him on that? but I see more than two places in Isaiah 53 that are worth mentioning from that point of view, from Jesus being God.
I went to the Jewish version of the chapter:
Verse 6 in the Jewish OT reads like this: "...Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us."
Now those of you who claim that Jesus was God, this shows that "Lord, (God) accepted his (if you say its Jesus) prayers" You know that God does not pray to anyone, if we assume this verse refers to Jesus as you say, then Jesus was not God.
In verse 11 it is said; "My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear."
We know God is no one's servant, but those of you who claim Jesus is God, have to realize that whoever is mentioned here is a servant of God.
Also, the above verse creates another problem: The verse shows that " he would bear inequities of many". Now, that is in contrast to the words quoted to Jesus in Matthew 5:30 where Jesus is quoted to have said: "If your right hand commits a sin, cut it off so your whole body would not have to be cast into hell"? that is a very different idea then of Isaiah?
Doug, in Islam, we do not deny Christ, nor we say anything from ourselves, but what God has told us to. And that is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a servant of God, a prophet, a beloved of God. When his enemies wanted to show that they have more power to kill him, God, who first showed His power by bringing him to life though a virgin without a male intervention or sexual partnership, showed those disbelieving people who showed that they were representing God, yet they were rebellious transgressors, who were so drunk with their power that they thought they could do anything they want. But God is Above All, who calls the shots. Thus when those who wanted to kill him were about to do so, God snatched His beloved out of the hands of those who meant harm to him to safety and blessings to Himself.
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 2:22am
Hasan, Greetings.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ's death was necessary for the Salvation of all people, and without it made His life, ministry and death on earth without purpose. Jesus was a servant of God, but was also part of the substance that makes the Trinity of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" and in the Book of Revelation His role at the end of the world is shown.
Revelation 5;1-13: (The Revelation of St. John)
1. "And I saw in the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
2. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"
3. And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
5. But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep, Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6. And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out to all the earth.
7. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne..
8. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood. Out of every tribe and tongue and the people and nation,
10. And have made us kings (lit: "a kingdom") and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
11. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands and thousands,
12. saying with a loud voice; "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13. And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever."
I know this is long but I think it illustrates much of what Christians believe in regard to Jesus Christ in His life on earth and His necessary death and resurrection, and subsequent role at the end of time with God in heaven as part of the single substance of the Holy Trinity.
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Posted By: Maymunah
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 3:57pm
Douggg wrote:
Hi Maymunah,What about the part in Isaiah 53 about the suffering servant dying?� 53:<a name="9" ="verse" id="9">9</a> And he made his grave with the
wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.Islam says that Jesus did not die, but that God took him to heaven without him dying.So Islam's position does not match up with Isaiah 53.�� I think I read where you indicated that you are a relatively new muslim?�� Are you aware of Islam's denial of both the death and resurrection of Jesus?Doug L. |
Salam Doug, I am not aware that Islam both denies the death and resurrection of Jesus. I am however aware that there is some confusion regarding these, but I believe the Quran is quite clear....
Surah 19:33 -Peace be upon me on the day I was born and peace shall be on me on the day I die and on the day I am raised to life.
Surah 4:157;158-That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the
Messenger of Allah;" but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was
made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no
(certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him
not.
158.Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2010 at 6:04pm
Larry wrote:
Hasan, Greetings.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ's death was necessary for the Salvation of all people, and without it made His life, ministry and death on earth without purpose. Jesus was a servant of God, but was also part of the substance that makes the Trinity of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" and in the Book of Revelation His role at the end of the world is shown.
Revelation 5;1-13: (The Revelation of St. John)
1. "And I saw in the right hand of Him (God) who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
2. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"
3. And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
5. But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep, Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6. And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out to all the earth.
7. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne..
8. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood. Out of every tribe and tongue and the people and nation,
10. And have made us kings (lit: "a kingdom") and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
11. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands and thousands,
12. saying with a loud voice; "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13. And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever."
I know this is long but I think it illustrates much of what Christians believe in regard to Jesus Christ in His life on earth and His necessary death and resurrection, and subsequent role at the end of time with God in heaven as part of the single substance of the Holy Trinity. |
Larry,
I do understand how Christians and Catholics believe about Jesus, God and Salvation. I have many people I know personally including my wife who had been Christians and Catholics all their lives. After becoming Muslims they tell me that before Islam the Trinity was the most mysterious things to them, which was to be believed. Most of them tell me that they had thought of Jesus as anything but not God. Now they feel at peace and know who each one of them is.
I understand for you to say, Jesus a servant of God, a lamb of God, and Jesus as God in one breath and don't seem to have any problems with that. But on this end, to anyone like I who can easily distinguish between the Creator and the Created the distinction is clear between the two. The interesting thing is that the evidence does not support your understanding and claim even in your own source, the Bible.
Same goes for the salvation through his death, is also proven to be inconsistent with the Bible.
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 3:53pm
"I have many people I know personally including my wife who had been Christians and Catholics all their lives. After becoming Muslims they tell me that before Islam the Trinity was the most mysterious things to them, which was to be believed."
I would point out first that Christians and Catholics are the same thing, Christians. The people you know who "were Christians and Catholics" say that the "Trinity was the most mysterious things to them." The Trinity is a thing not things and any Christian who doesn't understand the doctrine of the Trinity did not have a firm grasp on the basics of their own faith.
"I understand for you to say, Jesus a servant of God, a lamb of God, and Jesus as God in one breath and don't seem to have any problems with that."
Yes, Jesus, as a human on earth was the servant of God and referred to God many times as His "Father". He is not referred to as "a lamb of God" but "The Lamb of God." The text of Revelation answers what Jesus's nature was. "and they sang a new song, saying; "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open it's seals; For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood. Out of every tribe and tongue and the people and nation..."
You refer to the Creator and the Created. You feel that God is limited in His power and glory. But we Christians believe that "with God nothing is impossible." What good would Jesus's birth, life, trial, crucifixion, death and resurrection be if He was merely a man created by Himself through Mary? The whole reason for the life of Emmanuel (Lit: "God with us") was to be the supreme sacrifice through which mankind could achieve the Salvation of God. Just by His resurrection He is shown to be of God. Does anyone else know of anyone who has risen from death?
You say that "the evidence does not support your understanding and claim even in your own source, the Bible. Same goes for the Salvation through His death is also proven to be inconsistent with the Bible."
The entire New Testament of the Bible deals exclusively with the nature, life, ministry, trials, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus was the "New Covenant" between God and mankind, superseding the "Old Covenant" or "Testament". Jesus said that He was not here to change the Old Testament but to fulfill it. The crucifixion of Jesus serves as the ultimate sacrifice and made physical sacrifices to God at the Temple pointless. Jesus said that He could tear down the Temple and rebuild it in three days. He was mocked for this statement because everyone knew of how mighty, powerful and rich the Temple was, but Jesus was referring to Himself as the new Temple to God, brought about by His resurrection and ascendance to the Right Hand of God. Jesus also said that within a generation of His death and resurrection there would not be "one stone left atop another" of the Temple. This was fulfilled 37 years later when the Roman General Titus completely destroyed the Temple after the great Jewish Revolt.
"Same goes for the salvation through His death, is also proven to be inconsistent with the Bible."
The Bible consists of twop parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament.As I said already, the entire New Testament explains the nature and life of Jesus Christ and the reasons behind His life, ministry, trials, death, and resurrection.
Another representation of the Trinity is when Jesus is being baptised in the River Jordan by John the Baptist. "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were open to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
As I have observed before, the concept of the Trinity is hard for non-Christians to understand. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, being of the same substance. There is only one God, but we Christians understand God to be infinite without human physical limitations.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 5:44pm
Larry,
make me understand this, you say God came on earth as Jesus, and then you say, "as a human Jesus was a servant of God"
Do you see what I see?
Here in the South Texas and Mexico, by Christian it means Protestants and count different than Catholics, which is considered a separate religion.
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 16 August 2010 at 2:24am
Hasan,
"Here in South Texas and Mexico, by Christian it means Protestants and count different than Catholics, which is considered a separate religion."
Well, I don't know where Texans get that Protestantism and Catholicism are separate religions. They are both Christian faiths and differ only in their interpretation of the role of Peter as the first Pope. There are other slight differences but it is the same as the difference between Presbyterians and Anglicans, etc. All are Christian and all have the same faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Redeemer of all mankind. It is like the differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. A matter of interpretation and difference in who the legitimate line from Mohammed was. But they both are Muslims and believe in Allah, revere the Quran, worship in mosques, pray 5 times a day, etc.
"make me understand this, you say God came to earth as Jesus, and then you say "as a human Jesus was a servant of God."
Jesus Christ wqas born of the Virgin Mary after the angel Gabriel appeared to her and said, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women." Mary asked Gabriel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man? And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."
You will notice that this is very close to the way the Qur'an describes the story about Mary and her conceiving as a result of God's intervention. And the angel gabriel also said that she would receive the 'gift of a Holy Son."
Jesus was born on the earth in order to preach the message of God to all people. He lived as a human being for this is the only way that His sacrifice for all mankind would have meaning. He is the Son of God but remember that He is also God in the Trinity, as is the Holy Spirit. What good would it do for a imperfect regular human being to be sacrificed in order to bring Salvation to mankind? Jesus lived on earth as a human but came to fulfill the many prophecies of the Old Testament Prophets, especially Isaiah. There is a lot of disagreement on this board about the meaning of Isaiah Chapter 53, but even a cursory reading of the chapter reveals that Isaiah predicts with 100% accuracy the circumstances of Jesus's mission and His sacrifice to redeem all mankind. This was written 700 years before Jesus. After His death and resurrection Jesus ascended into heaven and will return to judge mankind in the end of days as written of in Revelation.
I know it's hard for non-Christians to understand the Trinity but read the New Testament and it will describe everything concerning Jesus's birth, life, ministry, trial, death and resurrection. In order to understand the beliefs of others it is good to be familiar with the basics of that faith. I have read the entire Qur'an on this website and found it very interesting but confusing in it's description of the birth of Jesus and His Holy status. But, just reading the Qur'an hardly qualifies me as a Islamic scholar. I just found that there are major differences between Islam and Christianity and I was not swayed to question my own Christian faith by what I read.
But you have your faith and I have mine and I respect your beliefs, but there are some major differences but that is the nature of different faiths. I would hope that you respect my religion as I do the same for yours and hope that Christians and Muslims can bridge their differences with mutual understanding and respect for the beliefs of the other. The Western world owes a debt of gratitude to the Muslims for their numerical system, preservation of Classical writings, medical advances, etc. during the time that Europe was engulfed in the Dark Ages. But there is no way that either of us is going to change their faith, but we can learn to live together in peace and seek the blessings of God.
Larry
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 August 2010 at 10:14pm
Larry,
I did not mean it to make a technical issue. Among the Hispanics you have mostly Catholics. One becomes a "Christian" when he/she leaves Catholicism and becomes an Evangelist for example. That's what they say it here in South Texas and Mexico.
When I asked this question:
"make me understand this, you say God came to earth as Jesus, and then you say "as a human Jesus was a servant of God."
I wanted your personal answer, which was same as I know and heard before and it did not make sense.
Your answer failed to address the contradiction: God came on earth, you said. That means, according to you, he (Jesus) is a walking talking God. But you follow on to say " Jesus was a servant of God" and there you contradicted, because in opposition to your claim that God came on earth as Jesus so he was a walking talking God, you slipped to say " Jesus was a servant of God" In one sentence you made him from God to servant of God. And that problem still remains in your explanation. You are either God, or servant of God. We know God is servant of none.
I don't think your explanation is weak rather it is the argument that is weak, rather contradictory. So whichever way you will describe it, and don't matter how long will you describe it, it will remain contradictory, simply, as their is no complication in it for being so.
I certainly do not believe that God is blood thirsty and only a blood sacrifice will pay for sins, let alone to be killing himself, that is a problem in itself. Or killing his son, which has more problems: God does not have sons, if it has sons it is not God we are talking about.
God, if want can forgive everyone and anyone without anything, because God is All Powerful. I believe that His forgiveness is open to those who seek it through exposing truth and certainly by not covering it.
God is Merciful and God does not punish parents for children or children for their parent's sins. Each one stand in front of the All knowing alone for what they do and intend. Only those who live by truth and serve Him with action and intention will receive His forgiveness and will face Him with confidence on the Day of Grand Assembly. Once that time comes it cannot be reversed nor a second chance will be granted according to the Final Testament from God.
So we must be careful when we say or follow something because it will bear irreversible consequences that take us one way or the other that is Paradise or Hell fire.
May God forgive us our mistakes and guide us to the right, Ameen.
Peace,
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Posted By: Tito
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 12:31pm
I don’t know why I came across this old post however, I do have something to add. As Doug mentioned. There is no issue in regards to be being burried with the wicked and rich. Because he was put in a rich mans tomb. Who donated it tide Christ to be put in. He was crusified with two thrives. They being seen as wicked men, were put in the ground/tombs the same time as the messiah.
Fact, the old testiment is the Torah. Islam respects that those words are true.
Fact, Jewish converts who know the Torah/Old Testament. Recognized the prophet Isaiah writing from 52 on speaking about the New Testament. Which documents the life of Jesus and how he first came as the lamb of God. To take on to himself the sins of the world. He is about to return as the concurring lion, which the Jewish nation wanted Him to come as, then they will see He whom they have piereced and weep over Him as one who has lost a son.
Note it also speaks in Isaiah about one who is pierced, which he was by the Roman nails, and the Roman spear.
Don’t take my word for it, read the old and new testiment/testimony. Search for yourself, the old testiment in many places forshadowed what Christ would do.
Again, don’t believe what I say, I would say don’t believe what any man teaches you. Rather search the scripture for yourself. Which Islam does recognize, then decide for yourself. Love, joy, peace and freedom in Christ, the messiah. Or, just follow what a man tells you is the truth.
Christ said, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you.
The choice to find Him, is up to you.
A follower of Christ.
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Posted By: Al Masihi
Date Posted: 06 May 2018 at 10:50pm
Perhaps the greatest of all Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures / the Old Testament) concerning the advent of the Jewish Messiah is found in the 53rd chapter of the prophet Isaiah. This section of the Prophets, also known as the “Suffering Servant,” has been long understood by the historical Rabbis of Judaism to speak of the Redeemer who will one day come to Zion. Here is a sampling of what Judaism has traditionally believed about the identity of the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53:
The Babylonian Talmud says: "The Messiah, what is his name? The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, ‘surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b).
Midrash Ruth Rabbah says: "Another explanation (of Ruth 2:14): He is speaking of king Messiah; ‘Come hither,' draw near to the throne; ‘and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; ‘and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.'"
The Targum Jonathan says: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong."
The Zohar says: "’He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"
The great (Rambam) Rabbi Moses Maimonides says: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zechariah 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."
Unfortunately, modern Rabbis of Judaism believe that the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 refers perhaps to Israel, or to Isaiah himself, or even Moses or another of the Jewish prophets. But Isaiah is clear - he speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded.
The second verse of Isaiah 53 confirms this clarity. The figure grows up as “a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground.” The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgment like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. King Messiah was to be that sprout.
Beyond doubt, the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 refers to Messiah. As Jesus Christ was rejected by his people and was made to suffer by them. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.
Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is One alone to whom this can refer, Jesus Christ!
Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, and the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin (Hebrew 2:17; 8:1). Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, is the one Isaiah foresaw.
Rabbi Moshe Kohen Ibn Crispin said, “This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah. This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so.
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Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 02 June 2018 at 11:28pm
islamispeace wrote:
Douggg wrote:
islamispeace wrote:
Conclusion: Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh). To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all. It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case. If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel. It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh). But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
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Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.
1. The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.
2. The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another. Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid
on him the iniquity of us all.
Doug L.
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Oh come on Douggie! Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed. Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not. People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest.
Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked." This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb. Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus. For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.
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Let me refresh your mind Jesus was crucified with to two wicked men they were buried the same time with him even though it was not in the same tomb if the Quran said that Jesus did not die and raised again from the dead then the Angel Gabriel in the Quran is not Angel Gabriel in the Bible any angel would not make such a mistake and came after 600 years and say I made a huge mistake then its in anyway far to late.
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Posted By: Cryptohec
Date Posted: 05 February 2021 at 5:54am
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9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,(AE) and with the rich(AF) in his death, though he had done no violence,(AG)
He was originally assigned a grave with the wicked as any criminal dying on a cross would,
however joseph of arthemea, after jesus he was dead. Ie “in his death - gave him the tomb of a rich man...
Really very simple. One sentence making another great prophecy
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Posted By: MIAW
Date Posted: 06 February 2021 at 2:02am
Peace maker wrote:
...Jesus was crucified with to two wicked men they were buried ...
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Jesus (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be
Upon Him) was not killed, nor crucified; the Bible itself involves verses that
confirm the fact that Jesus could not have been crucified. For example, Psalm
91 implicitly indicates that Jesus could not be crucified. According to one
interpretation of Psalm 91, God says that He would save Jesus as follows:
Surely
he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence. He
will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his
faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. You will not fear the terror of
night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in the
darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. A thousand may fall at your
side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will
only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. If you say,
“The Lord is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your dwelling, no harm will
overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. For he will command his
angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in
their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will
tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the
serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect
him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I
will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I
will satisfy him and show him my salvation.” (Psalm 91 3-16)
Supposing that, according to another
interpretation, Jesus is not meant by those verses and it is believers in
general who are intended, it sounds quite reasonable that the protection God
would provide to one of His dearest prophets and messengers, who is even
presumably His Son, should have been much more considerable than that provided
to the ordinary believers. Accordingly, it is impossible that God takes such
great care of average believers but delivers His presumable Son to death.
However, the dialogue between
the Devil and Jesus cited in Luke 4 proves that it is Jesus who is intended by
the above verses. In Luke 4, the Devil is quoted as citing what is written in
Psalm 91:11-12 to tempt Jesus, who, in confirmation of the ascription of those
verses to him, told the Devil that he would not have been able to tempt him
despite quoting those verses. In Luke 4, we read the following verses:
For
it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in
their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not
tempt the Lord thy God. (Luke 4:10-12)
Moreover, in Psalm 116, we
notice that Jesus is quoted as giving thanks to Allah for delivering him from
death. How come Christians believe in Psalm 116 as a part of the Bible though
it explicitly quotes Jesus as thanking God for saving him from death? Jesus may
thank God only if He saved him from crucifixion. If he was really killed and
crucified, for which thing did he give thanks to God? Is there rescue after
killing and death?
In Psalm 116, we read the
following verses:
I
love the Lord, for he heard my voice; he heard my cry for mercy. Because he
turned his ear to me, I will call on him as long as I live. The cords of death
entangled me, the anguish of the grave came over me; I was overcome by distress
and sorrow. Then I called on the name of the Lord: “Lord, save me!” The Lord is
gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion. The Lord protects the
unwary; when I was brought low, he saved me. Return to your rest, my soul, for
the Lord has been good to you. For you, Lord, have delivered me from death, my
eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before the Lord in the
land of the living. I trusted in the Lord when I said, “I am greatly
afflicted”; in my alarm I said, “Everyone is a liar.” What shall I return to
the Lord for all his goodness to me? I will lift up the cup of salvation and
call on the name of the Lord. I will fulfill my vows to the Lord in the presence
of all his people. Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his
faithful servants. Truly I am your servant, Lord; I serve you just as my mother
did; you have freed me from my chains. I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of the Lord. I will fulfill my vows to the Lord in the
presence of all his people, in the courts of the house of the Lord—in your
midst, Jerusalem. Praise the Lord. (Psalm 116 1-19)
Even though some commentators
on the Bible think that Jesus is not originally meant by the above verses, they
themselves do not rule out that they are also applicable to Jesus. The same
argument applies to Psalm 118, which quotes Jesus as saying:
Give
thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. Let Israel say:
“His love endures forever.” Let the house of Aaron say: “His love endures
forever.” Let those who fear the Lord say: “His love endures forever.” When
hard pressed, I cried to the Lord; he brought me into a spacious place. The
Lord is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me? The Lord
is with me; he is my helper. I look in triumph on my enemies. It is better to
take refuge in the Lord than to trust in humans. It is better to take refuge in
the Lord than to trust in princes. All the nations surrounded me, but in the
name of the Lord I cut them down. They surrounded me on every side, but in the
name of the Lord I cut them down. They swarmed around me like bees, but they
were consumed as quickly as burning thorns; in the name of the Lord I cut them
down. I was pushed back and about to fall, but the Lord helped me. The Lord is
my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation. Shouts of joy and
victory resound in the tents of the righteous: “The Lord’s right hand has done
mighty things! The Lord’s right hand is lifted high; the Lord’s right hand has
done mighty things!” I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the Lord
has done. The Lord has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to
death. Open for me the gates of the righteous; I will enter and give thanks to
the Lord. This is the gate of the Lord through which the righteous may enter. I
will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my
salvation. (Psalm 118 1-29)
Despite all pieces of evidence
offered above confirming that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, we notice
that many Christians still argue that Jesus was crucified and claim that
all evidence offered above abounds in contradictions and errors. However, it is
the Bible which is deemed to involve many contradictions and errors, even according
to many Christians themselves.
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Posted By: Humble
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 2:49am
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Biblical hermeneutics is the study of the principles and methods of interpreting the text of the Bible. The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that passages must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. A third law of biblical hermeneutics is that Scripture is always the best interpreter of Scripture. For this reason, we always compare Scripture with Scripture when trying to determine the meaning of a passage. I gather you have read and studied the text Isaiah 52 and 53 literal but not literary and failed to apply all other hermeneutical skills. I suggest what you have researched until now, run all of this through the original biblical language, Hebrew and its grammar and syntax and literary forms and compare the text with other text in scripture and it is like a giant puzzle, that gives a larger picture. Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 Old Testament prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus Christ. If you are not completely satisfied with Isaiah 52 and 53 study, the 300 prophetic references and I am sure you will not think anymore that Jesus was not the Messiah. Also, that Jesus Christ was not on the cross and has not died, I can understand from your traditions you don't believe He died and rose from the dead. But an independent secular study performed by historical evidence from extra biblical texts, so independent historical manuscript not related to scripture, and the scientific medical evidence concluded that, Jesus was the one on the cross and He died on that cross, there is testimony of a judge who said based upon all the evidence historical and scientific, it proves Jesus was on the cross and died. All other theories are false. There is so much evidence that it is impossible to claim something else. Then, Jesus proclaimed He was the son of the living God whether that He is, is up to you to believe, the son of man is a reference to the prophesy of Daniel, in the 1st century to condemn a person to death he needed to be guilty of something, the Romans couldn't find any guilt in him to condemn him to death neither the Jews, unless he proclaimed to be God, that was a capital punishment, when the high priest confronted him with accusations, Jesus said nothing, he was sitting there as an innocent Lamb, but then, they ran another accusation to him, the fact that Jesus was going around saying he was the son of God. And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?”63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then, the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.”
Why was this so upsetting to the high priest, why was it blasphemy, because Jesus was quoting the reference to Son of Man in the book Of Daniel. First, we see Jesus quiet because Jesus refuses to address the lies. But it is only when Caiaphas directly asks Jesus who He says He is that Jesus responds. Jesus answers that He is the Son of Man, a figure from Daniel 7:13–14, who will sit at God's right hand and come "with the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62). This is an act particularly associated with God, Himself. To Caiaphas, this is blasphemy. And since the members of the Sanhedrin as well as several others have heard Jesus, no more witnesses are necessary. When Jesus referred to himself in scripture, he was referring himself to the person sitting at the right hand of God. There are two major things at play here with this reference: no human can sit at the right of God, sitting at the right hand of God means a place of honor, you represent the person of who you sit before. We know no human can be in the presence of God and sitting on the right hand indicates you rule on behalf of God as a Son of someone favoured highly esteemed. So, without further explanation Jesus says with other words He is a divine figure and is the son of God. He claimed this and thus was for the high priest's blasphemy, so a ground to kill him. Whether one believes Jesus is a deity and the son of God is something that you need to believe and have faith, but God is the one who will reveal that to you. But that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God or claimed to be God is therefore false. Besides Jesus used other references to his deity too. Did He say explicitly with so many words I am the son of God, or I am God no but being the son of God, or to be God has many titles. As we have in our culture, the king could be referred to as your royal highness, majesty, monarch, etc... you don’t have to say explicitly I am king, you could say one of those other references to your sovereignty. I am a royal highness e.g., So, Jesus never explicitly said the words I am the son of God or I am God. But He constantly referred to himself with other titles referencing His deity. Whether you believe that He actually is begs the question. But claiming He never said it is false. Anyway, there is so much to study, and I suggest reading the book Seeking Allah finding Jesus. Before you believe something, study objectively and then draw a subjective conclusion. God doesn't want mindless blind believing people He could have created from the beginning. A world with robots, no He gave you a free will not to do what you want to do, because that has consequences. No, He gave humans a will to choose between good or evil, He gave one the liberty to choose between the two. The idea is that doing good is to obey God, doing evil is to disobey God. Hence, when we do not choose to obey, we do evil and hence, there is an eternal separation between God and Mankind. C.S Lewis in Mere Christianity says that the first humans were created with that possibility the choice between good or evil. We know in the end, they did the latter and now, we are all bound by it. God is an uncreated being that is in a self-sufficient state of love and the reason He created human beings was to share in this love. However, God wasn’t interested in creating a creature who would be forced to receive this love, there is no point in that, He wasn’t interested in robots. Therefore, He provides human beings with the ability to choose and be willing to accept His love and that is the only assurance and essence of true love. Hence, God has given them a will. Of course, if they would use their will the wrong way, God would of course know that could happen. But apparently, he thought it was worth the risk. But He had a plan to redeem the people and that is what the whole Bible is about, through Sin we got eternally separated from God and God set forth His plan of redemption, The whole Bible is one big Love letter to us sinful Humans, God trying to save mankind. But you have free will to look for the truth and you can ask God to show me Your truth, He will honour you.
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Posted By: Niblo
Date Posted: 27 August 2021 at 10:51am
Humble wrote:
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About sixty years ago I had an older colleague who was a Biblical Unitarian (I was a Catholic). We discussed (often) both the trinity and incarnation. On one occasion I became angry with him (I was fiery in those days!). I grabbed my Bible (KJV) and thrust it under his nose. ‘This is my Book’, I hissed. ‘What’s yours?’
He smiled, and gently removed the book from my hand. ‘This!’, he replied. I was stunned. How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own? He was no fool; neither was he perverse. He was both genuine and honest; a decent man who lived his faith according to his conscience. And yet, he did not, could not, believe what I believed.
Here is a quote by Cliff Reed, a Unitarian minister:
‘Unitarians believe that Jesus was a man, unequivocally human. It has long been our view that to talk of him as God is unfaithful to his own understanding of himself. The New Testament accounts describe a Jewish man, chosen, raised up, adopted and anointed by God. They claim that the divine purpose was that Jesus should reconcile first the Jews and then all humanity to each other and to God. This would prepare the way for the Messianic age of peace.’ (Sourced from a Unitarian website).
Two groups of people read the very same scriptures.
One group interprets these in a way that makes Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) a Trinity, and Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) ‘wholly God, and wholly Man’.
The other group’s interpretation sees no justification for the notion of a trinity; and regards Yeshua as just a man; in no way divine.
Which interpretation is correct; and what is your justification for saying so?
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'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib)
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 August 2021 at 9:09am
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Quran, Chapter 18, Verses 1 -5.
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