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Reason why there are no homosexuals inIsl |
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Doo-bop 
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Joined: 04 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 531 |
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 Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:43am |
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Jamal Morelli wrote:-
"Anyone following the thread can go back and see: You said you wanted to know about one particular man being a true follower of Islam (or truly following, whatever). You seemed quite clear and insistent you wanted a simple answer to that, adopting a nagging tone about the simple answer you were seeking. Well, it was answered: No." ----Ok, Jamal, if you say so. The man is not a muslim.
"So, having your answer, you've abandoned Believer's original question of whether a particular person was a true follower.... and now "we" are interested in "getting to the bottom" of what "Islam" calls for regarding homosexuals." ------Well you see, that's what I thought it was about. I did not think it was really about whether the man was a muslim or not ie. a true follower of Islam. I thought it was related to one issue. I thought the questioner was asking if this man was telling the truth about Islam's punishment for homosexual practice. But I could have been wrong...
"Simply, Islam does not call for the deaths of homosexuals by stoning. More details: You will find no absolutely universal answers to questions of Islamic law, since there are four major different schools of Islamic jurisprudence which evolved from the Quran, hadith, sunna, etc. and we have no Pope to chew our moral dilemmas and then spoon-feed them back for us from Ecumenical Councils. No matter what any Shiekh says: The doors of Ijtihad are re-opened every generation, no matter who wants them shut." ------So just making it up as you go along, eh? That's what humans have always done. It certainly doesn't sound anything like the law of God to me. God is absolute. Like I said, your system is totally confused and contradictory, and yet muslims are working hard to enforce it world-wide (God help us)
"For example, Irshad Manji is "a Muslim voice of reform" who sees a place for homosexuality within Islam.
Now, she doesn't speak for "Islam" any more than the UK's "preacher of hate" - but they are both operating in the milieu of Islam. Again, especially for you, Doo-bop - No, "Islam does not call for their execution" " ------Ok, let's assume what you're saying is true. If Islam does not call for their execution, what does it call for?
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"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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Shasta'sAunt
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Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Posted: 09 April 2009 at 8:54am |
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"Incidentally, nobody has said that the Quran orders muslims to kill homosexuals. I don't know where you got the idea someone had....or was that just another piece of obfuscation from yourself?
Now you are saying that, under Islam, homosexuals are to be punished as adulterers. Are you saying that adulterers are not to be punished by death?"
Didn't you write this:
"And now we can say that this muslim preacher is a true follower of Islam, at least in the matter of homosexual practice. Islam orders the death penalty for homosexuals.
And since Islam orders it, muslims must want it, and do their best to bring about the necessary conditions to enforce it.........."
The Quran is Islam.
"What a hotch-potch of utter confusion! One says this, another says that."
Mock the madhabs all you want but not one called for the death of homosexuals. As for punishment in The Quran for adultery:
24:2 (Y. Ali) The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
What is the punishment in the Bible for adultery?
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." What was the Jewish view:
"Idolatry, murder, and
So once again the Jewish and Christians call for death, while Islam calls for 100 lashes. 100 lashes may be a severe punishment but at least it's not stoning to death, strangulation until death, or being burned alive....
"And yes, I would say that your last two paragaphs are interesting, as you say. Interesting as a piece of deception, sadly. Christians do not ignore the fact, as you falsely claim, that God, under the terms of the Mosaic covenant with Israel, commands the death penalty for those who engage in homosexual activity. But the New Covenant is not a theocracy as the Old Covenant was (and as Islam claims to be). If I see someone commit a crime, do I arrest him and bring him to the church to be tried, convicted and sentenced? No, I report him to the police, who will refer him to the judiciary because the church has no authority to deal with criminals in terms of civil or criminal law. It is the state which deals with this. Individuals, now or in the past, who have tried to accord the church this level of authority, are in serious error." Where or when did Jesus tell people to forget everything that God had told them before? I guess the Old Testament is fine for pointing out what may or may not be a prophesy of Jesus, but any commands from God or any of that God is One stuff not so much..... It must be nice to get to pick and choose what you want to believe: we'll just take the easy stuff with lot's of sinning but no real punishment please....
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt
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Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:43am |
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"Again, especially for you, Doo-bop -
No, "Islam does not call for their execution" " ------Ok, let's assume what you're saying is true. If Islam does not call for their execution, what does it call for?"
Not their death, as was pretty clear from The Quran and Islamic schools of thought. Islamically, whenever something is unclear we should always revert back to The Quran. Nope, no death penalty there, just punishment for adultery.
I'm sorry, what was the punishment for homosexuality in Christianity again? The exact words of Jesus regarding the subject, please.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Servetus
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Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:24am |
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Act 1 Scene Two "Hear ye, hear ye," saith little Servie with a megaphone, the town crier who ill-advisedly smoked a hooka with the caterpillar and was thus catapulted back in time to John Calvin's Geneva. Here is a daily reading from holy writ: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established ... The authorities that exist have been established by God ... For [the ruler] is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer ..." (Romans 13:1-4) Now, stating it in the King's English, bring out your sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers and idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (Rev 22:15) and let them face the executioner, that is to say, the ruler, here in the public square. And let them, as St. Paul says, be afraid; let them, in fact, be very afraid! {Break for one-minute deodorant advert.} Serv _____________________________ Help! My so-called culture is trying to subtly convince me to become a hermaphrodite!
Edited by Servetus - 09 April 2009 at 2:16pm |
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:39am |
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Interesting verses.
�The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto; but if a person forgives and makes peace, his reward rests with God; He loves not those who do wrong.�
(al-Shura 42: 40) �Good and evil can never be equal. Repel (evil) with that which is better, and see how, then, someone between whom and you was enmity shall become a true friend. Yet none is given such goodness except those who are patient; none is give this but the most fortunate.� (al-Fussilat 41: 34-5) |
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:48am |
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What's a whoremonger ? Like a pimp ?
And those poor little dogs, Servie. What harm do they do ? You are evil and gonna burn in hellll.
That deodorant is absolutely mingin,' worse than the BO you dirty clat.
lol
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believer
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Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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Posted: 10 April 2009 at 6:51am |
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Thank you Shasta-
"There is nothing in The Quran that orders Muslims to kill homosexuals. The Quran tells the story of Lot and how God killed the inhabitants for their actions, "
My next question- does the typical Muslims feel that they can go up against a cleric and say- You are wrong the Quran does not condone this.
Do you have to remain silent? Is there anyone over this cleric that you can turn to and tell them he is preacing violence?
In theory many Christian Churches have a hierarchy to protect parishoners. We have see that it doesn't always work- the priest scandel, they were moved and not defrocked for their crimes against children.
Is there a hierarchy of clerics in Islam?
Shasta - Basically we are not told to punish or judge the sinner or homosexual- that is GOD's job.
Hebrews 13
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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believer
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Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:03am |
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Saladin-
Please research those that have been victim of horrible crimes and how when you forgive the criminal you feel a release from their pain. When you forgive you gain control of the situation, take it away from the criminal. You can move on and live past the experience. When you forgive you are no longer consumed with revenge and hate.
It is possible that as a Muslim you can not understand. Maybe you can't forgive without the Holy Spirit. I don't mean this with simple crimes but severe ones. Anyone can forgive the simple crimes, especially if you love the person commiting the crimes- your child lying, stealing. Edited by believer - 10 April 2009 at 7:07am |
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Khaleel Mohammed, an imam and professor of Islam at San Diego State University, wrote in his foreword to Manji's book that "Irshad wants us to do what our Holy Book wants us to do: end the tribal posturing, open our eyes, and stand up to oppression, even if it's rationalized by our vaunted imams."