Reason why there are no homosexuals inIsl
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: Reason why there are no homosexuals inIsl
Posted By: believer
Subject: Reason why there are no homosexuals inIsl
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:05pm
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All homosexuals should be stoned to death, says Muslim preacher of hate
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163510/All-homosexuals-stoned-death-says-Muslim-preacher-hate.html - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163510/All-homosexuals-stoned-death-says-Muslim-preacher-hate.html
Is this a man true follower of Islam?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:29pm
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Hey Believer, do you bookmark these sites or what? ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 10:14pm
I think he spends the 23 hours a day that he's not posting here scouring the web for this kind of dribble. His little fingers feverishly typing, his knitted brow covered in sweat. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Hayfa wrote:Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 10:23pm
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 3:34pm
What does that Bible say? Deuteronomy 22:25 is talking about a man raping a girl who was spoken for, and his his punishment is death. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 5:26am
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I think he spends the 23 hours a day that he's not posting here scouring the web for this kind of dribble. His little fingers feverishly typing, his knitted brow covered in sweat
It's Compulsive Deep Psychoses. I have my sympathies with the suffrer and also with his neighbourhood. We can cure him by starving him of the attention he lives by. ------------- Sasha Khanzadeh |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 8:15am
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LOL! and now the Bible should be followed?
Muslims always forget to look closer to today to the commands of Jesus-
Mark 12
'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."
Please point to the Quranic verse that condones killing homosexuals- Thanks.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 8:36am
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Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:10am
Is this a sentence? |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:13am
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:19am
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"Please point to the Quranic verse that condones killing homosexuals- Thanks."
You started the thread, why don't you do the honors? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:20am
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"LOL! and now the Bible should be followed?"
Is this a question or a statement? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:38am
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:17am
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Thanks. By your posts I see that Muslims believe homosexuals should be stoned. I know many homosexuals and they are all very nice good citizens. Most also believe in GOD.
It is ok to hate the sin- but we are not to hate the sinner.
One big difference Jamal - Is old Fred Phelps the Bible thumper calling for the killing of the homosexuals?
"WBC engages in daily peaceful sidewalk demonstrations opposing the homosexual lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth. We display large, colorful signs containing Bible words and sentiments, including: GOD HATES FAGS, FAGS HATE GOD, AIDS CURES FAGS, THANK GOD FOR AIDS, FAGS BURN IN HELL, GOD IS NOT MOCKED, FAGS ARE NATURE FREAKS, GOD GAVE FAGS UP, NO SPECIAL LAWS FOR FAGS, FAGS DOOM NATIONS, THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS, FAG TROOPS, GOD BLEW UP THE TROOPS, GOD HATES AMERICA, AMERICA IS DOOMED, THE WORLD IS DOOMED, etc." Seems to me that there is a big difference between freedom of speech and asking for someone's death. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:59am
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 27 March 2009 at 12:29am
The Bible calls for the killing of homosexuals, do you believe otherwise?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 4:36am
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 4:49am
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"Mark 12 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater
than these."'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment
greater than these."
Please show me anyone on this forum capable of obeying these commandments. Let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone. I helped a young Muslim man of late, who is gay/homosexual. He was going to commit suicide. I was going to talk a little about it here, but have decided that I won't dishonour this wonderful human being any more than the religious hypocrites of this world have already done - by sharing some his life story. It would be a desecration of a sacred life, so precious to God/Allah. As me granny would say, "hell will not be filled, till they are all in it." That's the religious hypocrites. I think Isa and Muhammad said something similar. Go figure. When your child is delivered to you, dead and battered, then talk about judging anyone - 'sin' or 'sinner'. They'll be in Heaven long before the rest :-) They serve their time in this world - with the inhabitants of this world's hell - a religiously hypocritical one. Why does the Qu'ran talk about the hellishness of hell in relation to so much hypocrisy ? Think about this seriously. So does Jesus. If anyone here believes in his/her heart that it is right to condemn another human being in this way, because of their religious indoctrination/belief - a very skewed one in my opinion :-) Then tell me how it is possible to look at a dead young person, battered/stoned to death just for being 'gay' - and not have to admit that you are at least partly responsible for his/her murder. It is not even remotely possible. Anyone who adheres to these kinds of beliefs had better be careful what they wish for, 'in the name of God'. I was reading during the week about every person having a certain amount of adultery prescribed for them in life. I must look it up again. Had been talking to a Muslim and a Christian about 'adultery' of the heart. It suggested all human beings committed adultery - at least in the heart. This was from an Islamic source. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that all of us should be stoned to death. Later God bless |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 5:39am
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This has raised something here that I was wondering about in another thread this morning, fore this one. This is to any of you people - whatever label you slap on your religious hats - Christian or Muslim. How do YOU love the 'sinner' ? If you can not love your self, as you are commanded to do, how exactly do you show your love for a 'sinner' ? Please Muslims, don't even dare come back to me and say this is not a command to Muslims - cause it is. "Love for your brother/sister what you love for your self." Now - I will wait with real anticipation on this one, cause I have asked many people over a lot of years about this, and not one has been able to answer it for me. :-) Put your big stones down children, and start using your brains instead. The bus to Oz will leave at 3, and the Wizard has assured me of a few best quality hearts. I was welcomed back this morning. Thank you L ! ;-) Maybe now they'll want me gone again. I am in seriously KICK ASS form, and ready to ask some seriously kick ass type questions. I feel like a lone voice, one speaking in the wildnerness, on behalf of the Good God who 'LOVES FAGS' - and am gonna get stoned to death ;-) LOL Give me the 'underdog' any day. Muhammad (p) went to the outcast and marginalised and so did Jesus. So I have good company. Oh oh, now am gonna get stoned for blasphemy. LOL ;-) |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 7:27am
| As Salamu Alaikum,I dont hate the Gays I just cant condome them,there are no verses in any religious text that says it okay,in face God has destroyed a whole society because of this.Gay(Homosexual) rights is funny.Does that make me a Homophobe?I dont think so but maybe in U.S and it's Demon-acracy.Who give them the rights to make halal what Allah has made haram?Only Demon-acracy,would try to okay what Allah has forbidden. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 9:15am
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Ashe You're not just a homophobe. You are an ignorant, hypocritical homophobe. Who are you to judge an entire society as 'demon' ocratic. 'Judge', being the operative word here :-) You wanna throw your crap, I will ram it right back down your ignorant throat. If there is a Paradise, God send me to Hell rather than have me mixed with the likes of you people. And I swear before the God I do believe in I mean that whole heartedly. I expected as much. I will not waste another moment's time, breath or energy even trying to 'educate' you ignoramouses - not least on your own religious texts. There are real and genuine people out there, left suffering and dying - from your hate, ignorance and prejudice, and who are more in need of that help. People like you are beyond helping. It is at the very least a statement of lunacy, to suggest an entire society - men and women were ALL 'gay,' and for that, God had to destroy all of them, the entire society. A monkey up a tree, scratchin' its ass with a banana could figure that one out in less than two seconds. I know for a FACT that 'heterosexual' - sniff sniff men in Muslim societies do have sex with other men for a variety of reasons. Just as the sexually frustrated men there also believe it to be OK to 'temporarily' marry a 'Western woman' - aka 'slut,' to legitimise his having sex to his 'god'. As long as he later finds a 'good Muslim' woman he can marry, make a proper wife, and make good. Hypocrisy is an understatement. It's pre neanderthal. I really do not see why you think/believe the rights of any human being is a 'funny' matter - 'gay' or otherwise. Your interpretation, as well as that of many mainstream Christians and others, of your religious texts, parts of them, would suggest that to teach a child to hate his or her self is somehow a Godly thing. This is what you propose your 'god' asks of the individual. You need to have a brain, and a heart, to really contemplate that one. That God would 'test' the individual in such a perverted way is just that, perversion of the worst kind. People having sex right, left and centre, using each other like dogs in the streets is not a good thing. Few would disagree with that - if they are honest - even the most 'debase' in the sex sewers of the world and I have known a few. People loving each other is something else. And the person's 'right' to truly love is not something that should be dictated by any other man, or woman, is not a 'funny' matter at all - and that is what you hateful homophobes try to do - whatever religious label to choose to wear in the 'name' of your petty little sick pervert of a 'god' - deny the person the 'right' and the exercise of their God given capacity to truly love. That in essence, is 'hell'. I am not talking of the 'real' God - the 'god' made in your own image who would ask a child to learn to self hate and live in hell. I can see if this goes on folks - it won't be pleasant, moderators, cause believe me I can give as good, and a lot better than I get - and I doubt that kind of 'truth' would go down well here at all - in this pre pubescent Islamic whatever 'ocracy' it's supposed to be :-) We'll see. I am so game for a seriously good fight these days :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 9:54am
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Sorry, I should not bring this in here. It's not a place to find what I am looking for to help this individual. I believe he is better to abandon completely fundamentalist, orthodox religion. I will encourage him to do this. If 'god' damns me for telling a human being to keep away from the kinds of human beings that left him seriously contemplating suicide in the first instance - then I'd rather not share 'heaven' with such a psychotic 'god' head. Some of you people have not the least clue the suffering you are wholly guilty of imposing and inflicting on other innocent human beings, and if there is a true God, you will answer to that true God for your ignorance one day. That I promise you. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 1:25pm
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Yeah, label me a homophobe today and in the near future, label me an incestophobe. Great enlightenment people get these days. You know how different the biological disposition in a homophile is from an incestophile or an adulterer? You'll know once you seperate the LGB from the T and the intersexuals and look for the facts, instead of falling for sodomised propaganda.
FYI Gulliver, a Muslim today aint required to chastise, stone or throw homophiles off the top of buildings but a Muslim will never condone such deviant behaviour like we'll never condone adultery or incest, even if it be consensual acts. Even in Sharialand, homophiles get no more than adulterers. Gravity of penalty depend on gravity of crime. Next time, use that 6 inches between your ears before you jump in to display your bravado and insult others. I'm a bigoted nasty homophobe??? Well dont blame me, perhaps I was born like this!!! ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 1:57pm
| Slow down a wee bit there Gulli,I seemed to hit a nerve.The two subjects I mentioned are both against Islam so Im against them.And if you know what you are rambling about you would know that Allah commands me to except what is good and reject what is evil. |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:05pm
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:22pm
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Oh Dr Phil th, aka Saladin. We bow to your superior intellect and wisdom. You talk from your books and out of your ass. I am talking about real human beings here. I did NOT ask you to condone anything. I could not care less what you believe, or don't believe and I mean that most sincerely :-) But when what you profess to believe impinges on the liberties of others - to the degree you create such levels of suffering for them - you can go shirk your cat. Six inches ? How very Freudian big boy. Should just about satisfy that 'cat' of yours. Keep it up. I enjoy this :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:27pm
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Ashe I can understand that something goes against your belief. Try and see it from another perspective however. You're obviously not so far up your own butt as Dr Saladin there. Try and see how your beliefs MIGHT - just MIGHT be a source and cause of real suffering for other people. Can you see that it just MIGHT be possible ? I don't want intellectual/academic BS like your dear comrade there. I've read it before. Try and speak as a simple human being, from your heart. If it were your child - might you learn to see things differently ? This place needs livening up :-) Now girls - give it your best. Get those insults flying. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:35pm
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Insult others ??? Dear sweet God. We can all survive a few insults. One little post and you're up in arms. Try a life of that crap, brother. Or is it sister ? What is an insult - is offensive, is truly diabolical - is that young people are driven to suicide cause of this - your theoretical, intellectual, psycho babble-sing, 'religious' etc BS. I won't degrade myself with that language any more. You people really are not worth it. You degrade others quite enough as it is. God bless Salam :-) Yes it is a sensitive issue at this time Ashe. Seeing that young lad in that state and knowing what brought him there, being reminded of it here has made me furious and if I had a certain individual or two here in front of me in reality - I know what I'd do with 'six inches' - something he/she would never ever forget. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:44pm
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Right folks. You have your beliefs and I respect, some of them. I won't be party to people who do this to others however. I will not believe in a 'god' like this. It's been really nice to be here, and read all the posts etc over the last year perhaps. I heard news today that really brought joy to me. One of the people here I had gotten to know, and with whom I'd conversed and written to privately became a full Muslim. I was/am seriously delighted for you and you know who you are. Thank you for your support of me too on my journey. I know this person will make an excellent Muslim and wish him every great good and blessing. God bless you all. I doubt we'll meet again where I am headed :-) I can feel those loving hot flames licking me already :-) lol Moderators - please remove me from the forum permanently. I have no wish to receive any more emails from this place. I may contact one or two I have gotten to know through private email. Good bye and a true Salam to all people here - despite our differences of opinion/belief. Bye. |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 3:08pm
| Ok what is with the (ashe)?I know Gay people I have gay cousin's two girl's and a gay uncle.I love them and still dont condone their life style and I dont wish that harm will come to them,they will be judged by Allah.I won't stoop to your level with the name calling,or perversions.Me not condoning Homosexualality does'nt make me a homophobe.I said nothing about them that will cause them harm neither did Saladin. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 5:15pm
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Gulliver:
Jesus stated he did not come to change the Law but to fulfill it. When he told the scribes and pharisees, "let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" he didn't do so to change the Law, but to show their hypocrisy.
"Love the sinner hate the sin" philosophy is great until someone rapes and murders 20 children or opens fire in a crowded college room. Jesus never said that people should not be punished for their sins and transgressions, and he never said that homosexuality was no longer a transgression against the Laws of God. If such punishment were no longer necessary then the "crucifixion" would have been for nothing, eternal salavation, forgiveness, the Day of Judgement, and the hellfire would no longer be necessary because no one would be punished for anything.
Personally, I have no problems with homosexuals. I believe that Allah will judge them as He judges all of us. BUT, what I do have a problem with are those who say they are religious yet do not follow the dictates of their own religion is such matters and call others who do names.
Islam does not condone homosexuality, nor does Christianity or Judaism. This is a fact, period. It is because people are so concerned about being politically correct or not seeming "fundamentalist" that they have fallen so far away from the original Word of God. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 2:59am
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I know Shasta. I'm sorry for going off here yesterday. It's not about here, or the good people here, and certainly not Islam or God. I think, even with my wild rants at times you all know me well enough now to know I am sincere in my wishing to gain real knowledge. I've just watched someone with the most beautiful heart and soul walk out that door. He is killing himself. God does not do this to him. But 'religion' has a very, very major part in it, and that makes me intensely angry. He was beaten up just walking down a street. Had his face smashed in and almost killed. I think he wished they had finished the job. He just walked out the door. He may not come back. My heart is pierced and tears fall. I ask myself, "what kind of a ***** shithole of a world are we living in that people, most especially 'religious' people can do this to any soul !!" He is one of my brothers. I really do not want to discuss this anymore. If it's a choice of standing by my brother, and against all the religions and their hypocrites - even with a gun in my hand - then there is no contest - believe you me. And they can throw me into the deepest pits of hell too. Cause it's them who would do it - NOT God. God bless "Personally, I have no problems with homosexuals. I believe that Allah will judge them as He judges all of us. BUT, what I do have a problem with are those who say they are religious yet do not follow the dictates of their own religion is such matters and call others who do names." Shasta - you are an intelligent woman. I respect you - though at times here it might seem I do not. Can you not see the hypocrisy in this statement of yours ?! Please - look at it, at your self, and think long and hard about it, cause it is glaringly obvious. It only affirms everything I have said. Everything !! |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 3:28am
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And another thing Shasta. I know you well enough, and all others here to KNOW that none of you know all there is to know about the 'dictates' of your respective denominations/religions. None of you KNOW God/Allah. There are so many points of contention on hadiths, sunna and interpretations of Qu'ranic verses. There is also research being done on those verses you all love to use to judge and condemn other people, and then wonder why they 'call' you 'names'. The real contexts of those particular verses. "Personally, I have no problems with homosexuals. I believe that Allah will judge them as He judges all of us. " Religious people say this ALL the time, and are so blinded with their own ingrained prejudice they cannot see how totally and utterly offensive it is to the persons they wish to hear it being said. It's a wonder they don't come back and whack you over the head with it. Come off it. LOL 'I have NO problem' - and in the next part of the sentence you speak of 'judgement'. You are fooling no one but yourself here Shasta. You are certainly not fooling Allah. In that simple yet complex statement is the essence of the 'problem' - why you do certainly DO have a problem with homosexuals, and they throw it back at you. If you cannot see this, then I seriously recommend forty years in the desert contemplating it. I know, and can understand what you people are trying to say about YOURSELVES here, and make no mistake, you speak only on your own behalf - being mere mortals, as we all are. I'd just ask that you THINK about HOW you present information to others. Especially those with more love and compassion in their hearts than any of you may ever have. How do less loving people teach the more loving, how to love ? When any of you can answer this - get back to me. Otherwise I really don't want to hear it. Someone else said, "Love the sinner, not the sin". Forget about the 'sin' of 'homosexuality' for a mo. Let's talk about your sin Shasta. or Aske or Saladin's. I've talked to the lads again and we're all fine - I hope :-) OH - and MY sin - RAGE ;-) LOL . Whatever the 'sin' we are guilty of - and we all have our secrets, how do we assist a person to stop sinning ? For me, my own take on 'sin'. It's an act of love less ness. We act outside of 'God'. We do something that is harmful to our self, an other and so 'God' - the Great Good. We must put love back where it's been lost in the first instance. How do we do that - with ANYONE - any vile, filthy horrible sinner ? How does anyone love another in such a way that they 'see' their 'sin' is harming them as a person, their relationship/s with other people, and so with God/Allah ? And that does NOT mean God/Allah is the last to be worshipped/loved here at all. You will all admit how many horrible vile filth sinning people there are in this world, most of whom want nothing to do with 'religion' ? WHY ? Those are the questions I'd like the answers to. How to bring the Love of God/Allah to the 'sinners' of the world - not the self righteous. The ones lost from love of self, other and God/Allah. Sorry - ramblin' a bit. Anyway - sorry for my outburst. It's been a very stressful and painful time and I really would not deliberately hurt a living soul. It's easy to lash out online - cause you forget there are real people on the other side and it can all be so annoymous. Does not excuse bad behaviour. So again, I apologise. God bless us, every one and all, for ever and ever - Ameen :-) And I really AM DELIGHTED about the 'new' Muslim :-) Well done you !! I might visit you there one day for sure. Maybe by then I'll have calmed down sufficiently to become a Muslim too ;-) lol Now - any vetinary surgeons here ?? I need a horse sedative !! :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 3:45am
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This is such a deep issue for any 'religion'. On another thread yesterday someone was talking about young people - Muslims and growing rates of drug abuse. It all ties into the same thing. Abusing drugs. Why does anyone do this. How do you teach someone that abusing drugs is 'sin'ful - in that is harms their self, others and God/Allah. "Seek God with all your heart, mind, body and soul." "Love you neighbour as you love your self." These are the keys. How do WE teach anyone how to love self, when we have not mastered it for ourselves. LOVE THE SINNER. Maybe we should leave this discussion till we have all gone to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz. Had our hearts of stone pulverised, given 'hearts of flesh' - learned the meaning of Compassion and Mercy - and how to heal hearts with Al- Wadud - Allah's LOVING kindness. Rite - that's my rambling over. It all sounds so very easy - but is the hardest thing is the world it seems to me. Dunno why am even bothering with this. I won't get answers here. The 'religious' of the world are the cause of the problem - not the answer to it. That's a harsh reality the religious need to face, in my humble opinion. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 4:26am
this is a good place for for a rant! a good place to ramble on and a good place to vent.
your comments bring a welcomed view. to look within ourselves at things we do not wish to see at times. to face the image we have made.
if you wish to use this forum to so i'll listen.
peace
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 4:59am
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Thank you Leland. If anyone opens the final 'door' for me - it will be you, or someone very like you. A true disciple of the Merciful, Compassionate, Loving Creator - Allah/God. By their fruits you shall know them. My ONLY desire is to bring the love of God to others - especially those 'lost' in their respective 'hells' in this world. Cause it is that very love which will be their deliverance. I have known it in my own life and seen it in others. If it seems like I rant and rave at people or their faith or religion. That is not what I intend. It's what is causing, creating suffering for others, alienating them from their Creator, and doing whatever it takes to 'help' them re establish that connection, IF they wish to. And in my experience MANY MANY people want to have a belief in a Good and Loving God - even when it seems they are in 'hell' in this world - especially at such times. And 'religion' itself is most often the cause of them falling away in the beginning. How it was taught, passed on, shoved down their throats. I was talking to a friend last week about this. He tells me that in Islam - Allah is not Love. I said I begged to differ. He needed to read the Qu'ran again. He has this impression, as do many Christians, that to speak of the Love of God is like giving people a pass to do whatever they like without consequence, when the exact opposite is the truth. Fear will never command self less ness. Only Love has the power to inspire a soul to true self less love - the kind of love that inspires others to want to know about the love of God/Allah. It's not rocket science. This is exhausting. Catch yas later. God bless you Leland and thanks again. You are an inspiration, and I mean it. And I really was overjoyed when you gave me your news yesterday :-) Pity I then came in here and went off on one. LOL ;-) |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 7:42pm
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Gulliver:
I really don't care if someone is a homosexual, an adulterer, a liar, a saint, it is not up to me to judge. It is up to God, and that is exactly what I meant when I wrote what I wrote.
I have too many of my own sins and problems to worry about to be judging others and it certainly isn't my place anyway. Only God can judge us and He will according to His Will. So, if you are looking for moral outrage from me you are barking up the wrong tree my friend.
BUT, I cannot say that any of the montheistic religions condone homosexuality because they don't. And as a Muslim I cannot condone activity that God has said is wrong, however, not condoning something and judging someone are two completely different things.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 7:48pm
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Gulliver,
Arent you being way too judgemental of those you accuse of being judgemental? No one has a problem with anyone as long as anyone dont bother no one. And its true, God judges everyone equally justly. LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN. I wonder how many could hate the holocaust and yet love the Nazis. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 2:45am
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 3:05am
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Well I will only state that I do not in any way equate sexual orientation with the 'sin's you people speak of. It is not a 'sin'. And to suggest it is, is the worst insult to the dignity of a human person. Ask them. And if that is TRULY what your religious texts teach - then they are the things that deserve chucking into the deepest pits of hell. It all begins and ends with the interpretations of those texts, doesn't it. Maybe that's why the Native American broke away - became the 'lost' tribe of Israel. Shasta, the very thought of barking up your tree would be enough to send me into a coma from which I would never recover. ;-) lol !!! ;-) Sorry. Trust me, I am not looking moral outrage or anything else. Just having a nice friendly little discussion here :-) This is the way of the Irish. All hair n' nails and then sitting down for a good bevvy and hearty laugh. Sal seems to be saying now, "Live and let live," which is not the impression I had before. Sorry if I misunderstood Sal. It's difficult to know what you mean, especially when you speak of gays, nazis and holocausts in a similar context. Shame on you. SLAP ! Religious indoctrination had the nazis too, as well as their hatred of the Jews, specifically identify homosexuals for murder - sent off in their own trains to the 'death camps'. To Shasta and Saladin. You say that God judges. Fair enough, I accept this. If Islam became the world religion. And shar'ia law, the law of the world, God forbid. Would you approve of the stoning to death of adulterers ? The hanging of gay teenagers, as was done relatively recently in Saudi, public lashings, chopping hands off, beheadings etc ? I know similar things are recommended in the bible - OT etc. I am not meaning this to sound anti Islam. I have defended what is good in this religion to a LOT of people and still do. Why perhaps this is an area I need to get clearer on. Especially when those who do suffer because of these things, ask me certain questions that may be core to their survival. I wish to God in Heaven this were just some intellectual bullshitty confabulation. But it is soooooooo much more folks. I know it gets a tad heated. But it's one of those hot potato things. Sal, I wouldn't really drop a nuke on your head. I'd just get a big crow to fly over and s''t on it. LOL ;-) There is great good in religion. But there is also the potential for great evil. Just thinking about the Jewish holocaust. The part 'religion' played in all of that. Can we have it both ways. The good of religion without the bad. This entire conversation has left me doubting that possibility. The only other one being - get rid of religion all together and I can well understand why many people want that now too. Later God bless |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 3:07am
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Sorry Sal. I know you're not a fascist ;-) LOL My head's been fried as you rightly pointed out this AM. Sorry too Shasta. I want to 'belong' but not sure what keeps me from the real belonging. Not a good example you picked me lad. Seriously though too here. It's an interesting topic Sal, forgiveness. "Lord, remember not only the men of good will, but also those of ill will. But do not remember all the suffering they have inflicted upon us. Remember rather the fruits we have brought, thanks to this suffering: our comradeship, our loyalty, our humility, the courage, the generosity, the greatness of heart that has grown out of this. And when they come to judgment, let all the fruits we have bourne be their forgiveness." Source: Found on a scrap of paper at the liberation of Ravensbruck Concentration Camp in Germany I think this is one of the most beautiful prayers I have ever read. It reminds me of Moses. When it comes to, 'love the sinner,' Sal. Just some of my wild thoughts here. There is a saying, "self knowledge is a sure path to God." Islam has a similar expression from Muhammad (p) I think this means - humility is a sure path to God. With true humility, we truly realise we are no better and no worse than any other human being who ever has existed, or ever will exist. Given the 'right' circumstances, we are each capable of the greatest good, or the 'wrong' circumstances, the greatest of evils. All of us. 'Love the sinner, not the sin' is said to each of us. We are the 'sinner' whom we must learn to love, not someone else. To love self - the 'sinner'. In love of self is the freedom from bondage to that which makes of us a 'sinner' - separates us from God/Allah. It is a command in Christianity - 'love your enemies', pray for those who hurt you. I think partly what that is telling us, is that when we learn what makes of people our 'enemies' - we realise they are no different to ourselves in essence, and might actually begin a process of learning to love them, even while hating what separates them from us. Self knowledge is a sure path to God. Humility the key to the Kingdom within. Where can I get myself a truckload of humility :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 4:24am
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Here's a question. What is it with religion, and scapegoating ? Might need to read a bit on that particular subject - but it's enlightening. Try it :-) |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 9:57am
| As Salamu Alaikum,Brother Gulliver.Thanks for the pm.May Allah mend your heart.May Allah increase your faith in Him.I see that you care alot about people who are considered different,I read what you said about the underdog.So you see where we Muslims are coming from.Maybe we should show more compassion for others that are different.May Allah Bless us all and give us Jannah.I looked alot into Homosexualality and what some of them would say is they were born in the wrong bodies,If it is that way and not a choice,then that is a birth defect.May Allah grant them Mercy. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 10:19am
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Compassion for all Akhe, yes. To be compassionate means to know, share in the suffering of another to a large degree with the objective of relieving that suffering, helping that person see their way out of it. We often have to visit them where they are, know their suffering in a real way to become truly compassionate. It seems to me. We all need compassion, or we're all lost. Sometimes it can seem we are overwhelmed with the suffering we witness in this world, and ranting and raving is all there seems to be to keep us remotely sane ;-) lol Works for me usually. When I look at any person. I wonder what it means to love that soul, in such a way it will dignify them as Allah's creation - who they are and what they are meant, called to be - wonderful human beings. That is how we free others from the bondage of 'sin' - being lost to God's love, I believe. When we learn, realise how much we are in need of this ourselves, we realise we are in as much, and maybe more need of it than are those others. That is humility. I think. I have to say I am getting used to be referred to as 'brother' :-) It's something I like about Islam - each sees the other as the member of a human family. How it should be. God bless you brother :-) Akhe and thank you :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 10:42am
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I do understand the 'underdog' in your context too Akhe. I am one of the 'black Irish'. Irish Catholics have not had an easy ride over the centuries. My name alone on an application form would have told the employers my 'religion' and meant me being denied even an interview, never mind the job. Trust me, we have far more in common than you realise :-) As much as good ol' Hasan tries to dismiss Catholicism - there are great similarities in Islam and Catholicism - one reason I find Islam so attractive and could adapt so easily. True Catholicism calls for true submission to the will of God, after the model of Jesus - who told us, "take up your cross (nafs) and come follow Me." Obedience to God is made perfect through suffering, after the model of Jesus - death to self, mastering the nafs - so the spirit gives true and lasting life to the individual - resurrection. Something like that. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 5:00pm
asalam alaikum
this is just a thought with no real " fact based information"
i have not read all the way though the qu'ran yet so forgive me if i speak without knowledge.
i've been told the the same thing from gay friends i know. they feel out of body. and so confused within themselves of why.
man and women " come from the same soul ." it was seperated from itself. making all of us imperfect. the residue of the " other " may remain and manifest itself in some people thus explaining homosexuality and the " wrong body effect " in fact sin and death did not exsist untill we were seperated from ourselves.
forgive me if the next coments are lacking knowledge.
satan refused to bow to adam and thus rebeled against god.
here ADAM is used as a sigular A ONE. so this act of defience seems to have occured before the seperation of humanity.
could than satan be resposable for the seperation of humanity as part of his spite for god? jelous of gods most perfect creation. thus making humanity imperfect , incomplete and varnable to sin and death.
don't beat me up for such thinking, it's just a thought.
love leland
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 9:06am
| Wa Alaikum Asalam Brother Nazarene.Jazallah Khieran for your reply. You have an interesting point of view.I am without a response for that but it is interesting. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 6:03pm
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"If Islam became the world religion. And shar'ia law, the law of the world, God forbid."
Interesting statement. It was under Islamic rule and the dreaded sharia law that enlightenment flourished. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 01 April 2009 at 7:04pm
| Will someone point out where anyone on the IC suggested they wanted homosexuals stoned to death? |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 2:09am
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Highlighting the sins of others above our own, at the expense of our own, is akin to 'stoning' - at least in the corrupted bible stories.
We are all full of 's''t,' and only fool ourselves.
Back to abuse of religion again, or religious/spiritual abuse, prevalent in all religions. People need to be honest about the major dishonesty in their respective religions.
As I say, if they are not - they fool none but themselves.
It was what I was trying to do on that other place Jamal - fore you got up on your high horse - or is it Baraq and tried most unsuccessfully to be smug (?). You are way out of your league. I was trying to highlight abuses within religion. But the strongest adherents of those religions will deny it to your face - that there is anything wrong, rotten, corrupt in those religions, if they are challenged. Even with the dead bodies laid out in front of them. "NO NO NO !"
And that is NOT about Islam. It's true of ALL these 'great religions' - past and present.
Now, shove that in the ol' pipe and smoke it.
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 5:19pm
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Agape-unconditional love. If you don't rate sin, but consider that all sin causes GOD's unhappiness, then I believe one can see a way through to loving the Nazi but hating what they did. Some say that homosexuals are the eunuchs of yesteryear.
Isaiah 56
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." 4 For this is what the LORD says: 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls Matthew 19
12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 6:57pm
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Nice try Believer, but eunuchs have a gender but are sexless.
And all sins are not equal, hence the 10 Commandments. Even the NT states that a person who mocks the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 6:58pm
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Islam the religion is not corrupt, how could it be? Perhaps some of those who claim Islam as their religion are corrupt, but that's a different story.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 7:16pm
I have been thinking about this "love the sinner hate the sin" thing and Gulliver's paranoia about Shari'a and I have become curious. The following are a few excerpts from stories in the area where I live in Texas:
Grand Prairie woman, 78, sexually assaulted, set on fire
10:20 PM CDT on Tuesday, March 31, 2009
By MARISSA ALANIS / The Dallas Morning News
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]
A 78-year-old woman was sexually assaulted, then set on fire in her north Grand Prairie home Monday, police said. The woman was at her home in the 1800 block of Sunnyvale Road, near Carrier Parkway and State Highway 161, shortly before 2 p.m. when a man arrived at her door, said Detective John Brimmer, a Grand Prairie police spokesman. The woman is not being named because The Dallas Morning News does not identify sexual assault victims. The man introduced himself to the woman as "Daniel," a 22-year-old from Chicago who was staying at a local motel. He talked his way inside her house by telling her that he was trying to earn points to attend college as part of a "communications exercise," Brimmer said. The suspect may have been selling magazines. Once inside the woman's home, the man assaulted her, poured rubbing alcohol on her chest and set it on fire. The woman was taken to Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, where she was being treated for second-degree burns from her stomach to her chin Tuesday. Police said she is expected to recover from her injuries. Cops: Neighbor Killed,
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 03 April 2009 at 8:30am
Hmmm wrong, all sins can be forgiven with the exception of suicide.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 April 2009 at 11:19am
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Okay, I am wondering
exactly what the "forgive at all cost, unconditionally love the
sinners" group think should happen to anyone of these people. What do
you do with a man who rapes a 78 year old woman, then sets her on fire
while she is conscious, or a nurse who injects dialysis patients with
bleach while they are receiving what they think are life saving
treatments and kills 5 of them, or a woman who attacks, brutally beats,
and robs 90, 96, 86, year olds as they are returning from spending what
little Social Security money they have on groceries, or a man who would
rape and strangle to death a 13 year old girl.....
Yes and these are premeditated crimes. Not the so-called 'crime of passion'... that is the scary part..thought out, often planned, and executed without remorse. What darkness is in these people AND do we not have every right to protect ourselves and others from people like these.. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 03 April 2009 at 4:20pm
Why couldn't you just answer the question that was asked? ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 12:17am
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While the gruesome question still lingers:
Would I ever sit by idly if a homosexual was being attacked in any way? No. On the contrary, with full force, I would defend them against violence, whether physical or the emotional violence that would lead them to drugs, suicide, self-repression, etc. Would I then philosphically/religiously justify or encourage any form of violence or ostracizing against them? No. Do I think they are sinning/hated by God/etc because they are gay? No. Do I realize this probably runs counter to the more popular conventional and religious instruction regarding gays? Yes. After this post, do I still hope Sign Reader kind of likes me/tolerates me? Yes. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 12:40am
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"Islam the religion is not corrupt, how could it be? Perhaps some of those who claim Islam as their religion are corrupt, but that's a different story." Now that's an interesting opinion. Help me understand here Shasta. Why exactly isn't the religion of Islam 'corrupt' ? On what do you base this opinion/belief of yours ? If you can prove to me the religion of Islam is not corrupt - I'll say the Shahada today :-) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 1:19am
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"Gulliver's paranoia about Shari'a " ? You give your shar'ia, like your opinions on so many matters, far far too much credit, friend :-)
"Mirror, mirror on the wall...... who is the fairest of them all ?!" Great moral in this, for many here.
Last time I looked in the mirror, it "cracked from side to side....... the curse has come upon me, cried........ " 'I've gotten religion. It did crack too. Friggin thing. Guess my stunning gorgeousness was too much for it. lol
__________________________________________
I have never said, do not say, or will EVER say that these things are excusable. If it were up to me, I'd shoot the b'stds !! After I'd ripped parts of their bodies out, shoved them down their throats, and choked them stone dead. The 'nurse' - I'd think of something interesting there too - long, slow and painful.
You see - I am very much into Shar'ia. It's a perfect means of assuring justice is served.
Let me ask you Shasta, and Hayfa.
Could either of you - under ANY circumstances, see yourselves committing any of these horrific acts ? If not, WHY not ? If yes, why so ? This will show me, partly what you are truly made of, and if you are people I'd look to for 'spiritual' guidance as a wanna be true believer.
Self knowledge is a sure path to God.
I am surprised at you Hayfa, who can quote Rumi, not even beginning to grasp what it being hinted at here. Love, love, love - a big orgy - everyone does what they like and no consequences. That's what Christianity - being as rotten and corrupt as it is, is all about.
Or maybe you do know, and we are all just seriously misunderstanding each other from silly posts on the internet, which we all know happens ALL the time - esp on forums about the two great NO NO's - religion and politics :-)
""forgive at all cost, unconditionally love the sinners" group.
Where are these people ?
OK, I am not claiming to be Christian or Muslim, or any other variant of same/similar. I want those in the know, full of all knoweldge and truth to help me understand what they profess, believe to such a degree I might be able to believe it too and accept the 'religion'.
Shasta and Hayfa, and anyone else who cares to - I'd like that you try to answer my questions above, IF you care to, and get the time. Thank you.
God bless
"Love the sinner' is, in my belief, something that was said to ME, not someone else.
We could all, every single one of us have been a Nazi, and done what the worst Nazis did. There are a few 'nazis' here that I can tell :-) That's the real point. What makes anyone a 'sinner' - a 'nazi. When we are really capable of understanding that - as God does, then we might be able to talk about 'justice' and 'hating' the 'sin'.
How in God's name it went from gay people to Nazis, holocausts, rapists and murderers is a mystery to me. Says so very very much about how ignorant some people truly are, how very, very dangerous and why good compassionate, merciful loving people want nothing to do with them, or their 'religion'. By their fruits you shall know them.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 1:41am
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Considering these stories, I see things like this happening in this country too. The abuse of the elderly - attacks, beatings, killings. Twenty years ago you would NEVER EVER have heard of such things in Ireland. It just did not happen. Older people were respected to a far greater degree than they are now. Now the place is over run with drink, drugs, rape, murder and the rest. Orthodox religion is on the decline. Are they linked ? I am sure that is a whole argument in itself. I was listening to the radio yesterday morning. A professor of psychiatry come to give a talk in Dublin. I just caught the beginning of the programme. He was talking about faith and mental health. That all the research in the 'West' - done predominantly on Christianity indicates that people with 'faith' have higher rates of mental health. Humanists, with an ethical code too it seems. Was interesting. They had not real stats on Islam - not yet.
I have wondered about the 'death penalty'. I think that a person of faith has the lessons to learn for themselves, ultimately. Whatever the society they live in tells them - even the 'religion'. If there is a God and we face that God one day, we will answer for ourselves, no one else. Our hearts searched through and through as to why we believed such a thing to the degree we acted on it - especially if it wished for the death of another. We will need to have the 'answers' in our hearts as to why we wished for another what we might not have wished for ourselves - death.
That is not saying the 'death penalty' is right or wrong. Just thoughts.
As usual am rushed. So forgive if not as clear as should/might be.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 2:32am
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Hi Leland, maybe you and I can journey together with our thoughts. It is mostly my own thinking, thoughts, introspections that I put out there and seek to answer. That is an interesting thought of yours - the Oneness in the beginning. Isn't it often through these things, separateness, even sin and death, that we learn what we truly have in common - the 'good' and the 'bad'.
Jesus said, "That they be One as we are One." Some suggest this is about the different factions/denominations in religion. But that doesn't seem to fit the context. What is 'eternity' anyway. Anyone ever really try and think about that. If we existed as every sub atomic particle - at it tiniest level - of every thing or being that ever existed, will exist, for the 'time' that it exists - we would not even have begun 'eternity'. I know 'time' and the 'eternal' are supposed to be experienced differently. However.
If the created mirrors at some level the 'un'created - spiritual realm/s. Then perhaps there is a spiritual 'big bang'. Expansion from unity to what seems disunity, all its diversity - and then collapses into a One again. And then starts all over. Science shows that there is order in what seems chaos. Just as particles fly and flail about, banging into each other - so too do worlds, galaxies, universes collide in creating and re creating - 'solids','liquids' and 'gases'. Metaphorical here folks - don't be giving me one - unless it's the reality of the One ;-)
I read somewhere a while back that all the angels except Iblis bowed to Adam, cause Adam had God's spirit as part of his makeup. Similar biblical theme - the ol' devil was 'jealous'. The same piece said that the angel Jibril/Gabriel could only rise to a certain height and no more with Muhammad his journey through the heavens, as Muhammad had that Godly spirit breathed ito him and Jibril was made purely of light.
God's spirit could rise beyond the created to 'un'created. As man would seem to be part created/clay, and un created - God's own breathed in spirit.
Anyway........
Interesting.
Must get Richard Dawkins over here for a cuppa tea ;-) lol
I am not even gonna bother with this 'gay' argument anymore. Muhammad himself said, "Wish for your brother what you wish for your self." It's very telling when certain people from 'minorities' - be they religious, ethnic or anything other variation thereof - would choose to believe something, erroneously in my humble opinion, that would have TEHM CHOOSE for their brothers and sisters a life of condemnation and 'hell'. May the truly Good God enlighten and forgive them for the vile sinful filthy adulterous heathens they truly are.
I have spokeneth and my word is TRUE ;-) lol
Well, at least partly.
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Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 3:37am
Bible also talks about death penalty.Here is some example: Lev 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Death Penalty In The Bible http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1528.htm - http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1528.htm |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 6:29am
Hmmm, not according to the Bible:
Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mark 3:28Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"-- 30because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit." ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 12:08pm
Thank you, Mansoor, thank you kindly, but I am already fully aware of what is in the Bible on this matter. I am also aware that the laws given by God in the Mosaic covenant were for the nation of Israel in the land. These laws do not apply to christians, who are living under the terms of the New Covenant, and who have no command to kill anyone for any reason.
But none of this is relevant. A question was asked. You did not answer it. Nor did you answer me when I asked you why you had not answered it. Are you on the run on this matter? Why not just give a plain, honest answer to the original question of the forum? Surely this cannot be beyond your scope ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 8:10pm
|
Gulliver:
I'm not sure which horrible acts you are asking me to commit. Probably my great ignorance coming through. Perhaps you could s-p-e-l-l it out for me?
As for how we got from homosexuality to rapists, et al, you my friend wrote:
"If Islam became the world religion. And shar'ia law, the law of the world, God forbid. Would you approve of the stoning to death of adulterers ? The hanging of gay teenagers, as was done relatively recently in Saudi, public lashings, chopping hands off, beheadings etc ?
So having brought up the spectre of crimes other than homosexuality you then wrote:
I know similar things are recommended in the bible - OT etc. I am not meaning this to sound anti Islam. I have defended what is good in this religion to a LOT of people and still do. Why perhaps this is an area I need to get clearer on. Especially when those who do suffer because of these things, ask me certain questions that may be core to their survival."
Perhaps I misunderstood, I plead ignorance again, but you seem to be suggesting that punishment is somehow "bad" and while you defend the "good" part of Islam, you somehow have a problem with the "bad" part which would entail people having to face the consequences of their actions.
I meant only to lend the conversation a different perspective. Instead of looking at how horrible the punishment might be, let's focus on just how heinous the crime that brings about the punishment.
Possibly it is just my unenlightened view, but I believe that someone who rapes and brutally murders a 13 year old girl should be put to death. I believe that someone who has been a career criminal for 20 years and is now brutally attacking and robbing 96 year olds should have their right hand removed. Perhaps if this had been done after her third such offense as Shariah dictates, these elderly people would not now be beaten, robbed, and living in fear.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 04 April 2009 at 9:02pm
So believer lol are you a homosexual? and didnt your scriptures condone stoning of adulterers? I often wonder why you care to post these subjects here, are you just trying to test the waters or bait us into another trollish trap. ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 12:53am
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Old Testament's laws: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)" We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it. So according to Jesus peace be upon him, the adulterer in the New Testament must be put to death. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 4:50am
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Again, solely addressing the original "question" of the UK's "Preacher of Hate" Anjem Choudary's place as a representative of Islam:
Here is an answer of "no" to whether this "preacher of hate" Anjem Choudary, is a true representative of Islam. Muslim chief bans visiting extremist from mosque Anne-Marie Walsh Independent.ie http://www.independent.ie/national-news/muslim-chief-bans-visiting-extremist-from-mosque-74095.html A LEADING figure in Ireland's Muslim community has vowed never to allow radical Islamic extremist Anjem Choudary to speak in an Irish mosque. Dr Nooh Al-Kaddo said his community would have nothing to do with the outspoken solicitor when he comes to Ireland tomorrow. The Muslim leader, who is the head of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin, said his community completely rejects Choudary's message that Ireland is a ripe target for a terrorist attack. His condemnation of the militant solicitor's visit tomorrow comes after Defence Minister Willie O'Dea also opposed his appearance at a Trinity College debate. Outrage The solicitor who last year provoked outrage when he claimed Ireland was a legitimate terrorist target, has been invited to Dublin by the university's Philosophical Society. He is expected to justify the use of violence in Islam during a debate. Speaking last night, Dr Al-Kaddo said he feared that the former al-Muhajiroun spokesperson would spark hatred between Muslims and Christians here. "We will never allow him to speak in the mosque," he said. "He does not represent the majority of Muslims in Ireland and could provoke hatred between Muslims and the community. "I feel we are giving these people the opportunity to present views that do not reflect the views of the Muslim community here, or even in the UK. "He has some extreme opinions that we do not share. I feel if anyone is going to speak on behalf of Muslims, we should speak, not those that represent the opinions of a minority. The majority of Muslims have not joined in his views." He said he feared Choudary's remarks during the debate could create confusion among Irish society and the Muslim community. "He may be talking about things like killing that is not helpful to youth, in their ambition," he said. "We do not share in his views about Ireland being a legitimate terrorist target, and mentioning the use of Shannon by the US. That is not an issue for Muslims here. "This is a free country of course and everyone has the right to speak, but we should also make sure this is a responsible freedom, and not open ended." Review ... He said the solicitor should be extradited following his return to Britain to face criminal charges if he repeats his inflammatory remarks during his forthcoming visit. Another question that may arise: Could this loudmouth Muslim born and raised in Welling, southeast London, ever legitimately representative for the world's Muslim population? |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 6:02am
Incredibly, you have still not answered the initial question of the thread. Why is that? ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 3:52am
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There are few 'nazis' here that I can tell
That, I cant tell of anyone here. I dont even see anyone here anywhere near being fascistic. Infact I cant even tell that every nazi (the real ones) were truly evil, God alone knows that. And if anyone thinks I'm being fascistic due to my beliefs, I honestly dont give a damn about it. Talk about being judgemental.... How in God's name it went from gay people to Nazis, holocausts, rapists and murderers is a mystery to me. All kinds of sins and sinners are bound to come up when talking about 'loving the sinner but hating the sin'; not that every sins or sinners are equal. The concept sounds pretty but in reality its not practical in every situation and for everyone. Eg. A holocaust survivor may forgive and then possibly love a repentant ex-nazi but is it possible for the holocaust survivor to love or even forgive an arrogant nazi, who's not even regretful? Ignorant are the ones who ignore this reality. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 3:56am
Clever answer, but not good enough. The question was "does he truly follow Islam?" not "does he represent the world's Muslim population?" Also, are you trying to make out that the article in the Independent proves that he is misrepresenting Islam? ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:06am
| Salams All,Lets not forget if one converts to Al-Islam all his past sins are forgiven.I can understand if we (people are unable to forgive)If we cant forgive others how can we ourselves ask Allah to forgive us?Allah Knows Best. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:40am
If the Islam defines the death punishment then it is also mentioned in Bible.So what's problem? |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 5:58am
So now at last we have some clarity on the subject from you, and if you could supply some more detail on the matter, from muslim scriptures, that would be helpful (for instance, are a certain number of witnesses required, as in the case of rape?)
And now we can say that this muslim preacher is a true follower of Islam, at least in the matter of homosexual practice. Islam orders the death penalty for homosexuals.
And since Islam orders it, muslims must want it, and do their best to bring about the necessary conditions to enforce it.......... ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:44pm
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Loving the sinner of all the horriific crimes listed by shasta yes-
This does not mean that he does not have to be punished! Putting them in jail letting them, teaching them the errors of their way. Many ministers work in prisons across the country trying to help prisoners see the light and turn their lives around.
Many criminals have turned their lives around and become productive citizens.
There is a huge reward for the victim when they forgive the criminal.
LOL!! mansoor - Muslims always seem to forget that Jesus came and lived the life that is the Gospel.
Who is the better judge of a sinner? God or another man that is also a sinner? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 07 April 2009 at 5:10am
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Dr Nooh Al-Kaddo ........ The Muslim leader, who is the head of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin Oh I wonder if I saw this man. I have been to the Centre a few times when in Dublin. I love it there. Gorgeous place and the food is MMMMMMMMMMMM. So quiet, peaceful and great for 'contemplation.' I used to visit a monastery and it reminded me of that. There were a lot of crows, ravens around the roof - the minaret (?)
The monastery was the same. So peaceful and quiet - beautiful nature around, and always crows and ravens about.
I wish there were a centre like that here in Derry. I'd be in it every day of the week.
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 07 April 2009 at 5:47am
There is nothing in The Quran that orders Muslims to kill homosexuals. The Quran tells the story of Lot and how God killed the inhabitants for their actions, just as the Bible tells this story.
I found this info on the web, easily googled if one really wants to know and is not just trying to make some sort of a point:
In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:
It should also be noted that the punishment for adultery requires four witnesses; by analogy, all schools, require four witnesses to the physical act of penetration for the punishment to be applied.But if otherwise any other proof is found through modern methods such as DNA testing or so the punishment can be implimented. Treatment of homosexuals within Islam: According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of penalty: The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted. The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted. The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act. Doo-bop: here we have the clear difference between our religions. The Quran does not order Muslims to kill homosexuals. The Shariah orders that they be punished as adulterers, just as any adulterers would be punished.
However, the Bible does call for killing homosexuals and there is nothing in the New Testament that states otherwise. Just because Christians choose to ignore this fact doesn't make it so.
So, out of the three monotheistics religions, Islam is really the only one that doesn't call for killing homosexuals simply because they are homosexual. Interesting, wouldn't you say?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 07 April 2009 at 11:14am
What a hotch-potch of utter confusion! One says this, another says that. And to think that people's lives are at stake! I am so glad I'm not involved in this scheme of things.
I only wrote what I did because Mansoor_ali said:
"If the Islam defines the death punishment then it is also mentioned in Bible.So what's problem?"
Now I may have misread him, but it seemed to me he was saying Islam called for the death penalty for homosexual practice. But maybe not. Maybe he was just, once again, avoiding the issue. Incidentally, nobody has said that the Quran orders muslims to kill homosexuals. I don't know where you got the idea someone had....or was that just another piece of obfuscation from yourself?
Now you are saying that, under Islam, homosexuals are to be punished as adulterers. Are you saying that adulterers are not to be punished by death?
And yes, I would say that your last two paragaphs are interesting, as you say. Interesting as a piece of deception, sadly. Christians do not ignore the fact, as you falsely claim, that God, under the terms of the Mosaic covenant with Israel, commands the death penalty for those who engage in homosexual activity. But the New Covenant is not a theocracy as the Old Covenant was (and as Islam claims to be). If I see someone commit a crime, do I arrest him and bring him to the church to be tried, convicted and sentenced? No, I report him to the police, who will refer him to the judiciary because the church has no authority to deal with criminals in terms of civil or criminal law. It is the state which deals with this. Individuals, now or in the past, who have tried to accord the church this level of authority, are in serious error.
I am not saying that the church is not to deal with sin of this nature. 1 Corinthians chap. 5 clearly teaches that it must. This epistle shows that the church in Corinth was in pretty chaotic condition, and in this chapter we learn that a man had been sleeping with his father's wife. The apostle, scandalised by this, teaches that this person is to be excommunicated, that is, put out of the fellowship of the local church. But under the Old Covenant in Israel, this person would have been put to death.
Now your last paragraph. Who said anything about killing homosexuals simply because they are homosexual? The meaning is not at all clear, perhaps deliberately so. The law of the Mosaic covenant speaks of homosexual practice, not of any inclination to homosexuality, which could also be interpreted as being homosexual.
Your allegation that christians, living as they are under the New Covenant, have any authority to kill anyone, remains unsubstantiated. Simply because it cannot be.
And another thing. You say the information you give is readily available on the web. But what you have given is not the actual articles of law, but seems to be summaries of articles about the law. In discussions of law, we need the actual words of the law, not quotations from pamphlets and so forth
------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 6:03am
Believer's clever question was (exactly) "Is this a man true follower of Islam?" in relation to homosexuals receiving the death penalty by stoning. The answer is no. Believer didn't ask "does he truly follow Islam"? But if he did, the answer would be no. One can more easily see how one might read "true follower" as meaning representative rather than "truly follow". Does he think he is truly following Islam? Yes. Now, is Morocco a Muslim country, with widespread shari�a courts? Yes. Is Britain a Muslim country run by sharia laws? No. How about Welling, birthplace to the "preacher of hate", is it a sharia run Muslim district in the London Borough of Bexley? No. Now, does Muslim Morocco, with it's sharia courts, have the death penalty for homosexuals? No. In fact, the last time the death penalty was used was 1993 for a very crooked police commissioner. Is "the preacher of hate" being disavowed by a part of the Muslim population as detailed in the Independent article? Yes. Aren't all Muslims welcome in mosques? Yes. Then, is he being openly rejected by a popular Muslim leader? Yes. Don't I want homosexuals to be hurt in any way? No. Am I Muslim? Yes. Does anyone in my large Muslim family want to see homosexuals receive the death penalty, public lashings, humiliation, etc.? No. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 7:53am
Just out of curiosity. If sex outside of marriage is haram, forbidden. How do you explain the verse that OKs having sex with captives, those whom the right hand possesses ? Did Muhammad and his companions marry all the captives before having sex with them ?
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Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 9:40am
This is irrelevant. We are not interested in what muslims in Britain or Morocco do. We are interested in getting to the bottom of what Islam orders about this issue. The mere fact that Morocco, an overwhelmingly muslim-majority country, does not execute homosexuals, does not, of itself, mean that Islam does not call for their execution ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 9:41am
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 9:54am
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"OK, what if the criminal was impenitent? Whats there to forgive then?"
His ignorance.
The more knowledgeable you become about why the 'criminal' committed the act against you, the more you can understand his/her ignorance, and you become empowered with the capacity to forgive. The knowledge also brings you to a place where you learn that, in his/her circumstances, you may well have committed the same crime.
I do not believe you can know true peace and healing otherwise.
This is just an opinion, a perspective, from a personal experience.
It is a long dark journey - but you learn one helluva lesson. It's not easy Sal, but it is possible. I know this for a fact. The 'grace' of God is a very powerful thing.
"There, but for the grace of God/Allah, go I"
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
You can forgive his/her ignorance, an ignorance on so many levels. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:13am
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If a serious crime were committed against you, something that robbed you of much in life, and caused great suffering to you and your family to a degree you wished at times the job had been done propery and you had died.
You are on your death bed. Would you wish to meet your Maker with the thought that someone was going to be condemned to the eternal flames because of something done against you. Your suffering will soon end. Eternity begins with the knowledge that someone you met in life will spend an eternity suffering.
Allah is Merciful, oft Forgiving. Compassionate. This is a very profound statement.
I have been asked, and often asked myself - what is 'justice' ? I still cannot answer it.
I am not suggesting criminals should be forgiven and let off for doing whatever they do. This is more from the perspective of human relationships, and the relationship with the Creator - real 'justice' from the perspective of the 'eternal' - compassion and mercy. How seriously do any of us take on board the notion that we all commit some act in life, 'sin' that would warrant us eternal flames - hell ? "Love the sinner." I am the sinner.
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Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:59am
Answered. But when answered....
The thread had it's genesis specific to a "preacher of hate" from the UK recommending stoning deaths to homosexuals. But now...
Anyone following the thread can go back and see: You said you wanted to know about one particular man being a true follower of Islam (or truly following, whatever). You seemed quite clear and insistent you wanted a simple answer to that, adopting a nagging tone about the simple answer you were seeking. Well, it was answered: No. So, having your answer, you've abandoned Believer's original question of whether a particular person was a true follower.... and now "we" are interested in "getting to the bottom" of what "Islam" calls for regarding homosexuals. Simply, Islam does not call for the deaths of homosexuals by stoning. More details: You will find no absolutely universal answers to questions of Islamic law, since there are four major different schools of Islamic jurisprudence which evolved from the Quran, hadith, sunna, etc. and we have no Pope to chew our moral dilemmas and then spoon-feed them back for us from Ecumenical Councils. No matter what any Shiekh says: The doors of Ijtihad are re-opened every generation, no matter who wants them shut. For example, Irshad Manji is "a Muslim voice of reform" who sees a place for homosexuality within Islam.
Now, she doesn't speak for "Islam" any more than the UK's "preacher of hate" - but they are both operating in the milieu of Islam. Again, especially for you, Doo-bop - No, "Islam does not call for their execution" *
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:43am
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Muhammad (p) Q: I'd like to be raised on the Day of Judgement in the light.
A: Don't wrong your self or any other creature, and you will be raised on the Day of Judgement in the light." �Read thine (own) record: In the Light of that knowledge, I wonder how we judge our selves and each other.
Allah is oft forgiving, most Merciful.
It's something we will answer for ourselves.
"Wish for you brother what you wish for yourself."
I wonder.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 3:59pm
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Every human society and social system has to have some rule of law, and if we look around they do. Man made systems tend to flex and change those laws as they do. All devine based laws don't go through trial and error. We see that Quran and what we have left with of the older revelations suggest very clear punishments for crimes, including homosexuality. Now we can change our view about it, but if we believe in those scriptures we must live by them or trade them for something that is pleasing to our eyes, until we return to the one who has given us those rules to live by. If He has said to punish those who were involve in such practices, he will punish them, no neighborly love will avail anything, except forgiveness from God for who repent and guard themselves from such deads.
I can live by rejection by those who don't like this act to be called punishable, as it is so in the sight of God. But we cannot afford the rejection by Him, in whose's hand is my life, here and in the hereafter.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:43am
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Jamal Morelli wrote:- "Anyone following the thread can go back and see: You said you wanted to know about one particular man being a true follower of Islam (or truly following, whatever). You seemed quite clear and insistent you wanted a simple answer to that, adopting a nagging tone about the simple answer you were seeking. Well, it was answered: No." ----Ok, Jamal, if you say so. The man is not a muslim.
"So, having your answer, you've abandoned Believer's original question of whether a particular person was a true follower.... and now "we" are interested in "getting to the bottom" of what "Islam" calls for regarding homosexuals." ------Well you see, that's what I thought it was about. I did not think it was really about whether the man was a muslim or not ie. a true follower of Islam. I thought it was related to one issue. I thought the questioner was asking if this man was telling the truth about Islam's punishment for homosexual practice. But I could have been wrong...
"Simply, Islam does not call for the deaths of homosexuals by stoning. More details: You will find no absolutely universal answers to questions of Islamic law, since there are four major different schools of Islamic jurisprudence which evolved from the Quran, hadith, sunna, etc. and we have no Pope to chew our moral dilemmas and then spoon-feed them back for us from Ecumenical Councils. No matter what any Shiekh says: The doors of Ijtihad are re-opened every generation, no matter who wants them shut." ------So just making it up as you go along, eh? That's what humans have always done. It certainly doesn't sound anything like the law of God to me. God is absolute. Like I said, your system is totally confused and contradictory, and yet muslims are working hard to enforce it world-wide (God help us)
"For example, Irshad Manji is "a Muslim voice of reform" who sees a place for homosexuality within Islam.
Now, she doesn't speak for "Islam" any more than the UK's "preacher of hate" - but they are both operating in the milieu of Islam. Again, especially for you, Doo-bop - No, "Islam does not call for their execution" " ------Ok, let's assume what you're saying is true. If Islam does not call for their execution, what does it call for? ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 8:54am
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"Incidentally, nobody has said that the Quran orders muslims to kill homosexuals. I don't know where you got the idea someone had....or was that just another piece of obfuscation from yourself?
Now you are saying that, under Islam, homosexuals are to be punished as adulterers. Are you saying that adulterers are not to be punished by death?"
Didn't you write this:
"And now we can say that this muslim preacher is a true follower of Islam, at least in the matter of homosexual practice. Islam orders the death penalty for homosexuals.
And since Islam orders it, muslims must want it, and do their best to bring about the necessary conditions to enforce it.........."
The Quran is Islam.
"What a hotch-potch of utter confusion! One says this, another says that."
Mock the madhabs all you want but not one called for the death of homosexuals. As for punishment in The Quran for adultery:
24:2 (Y. Ali) The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
What is the punishment in the Bible for adultery?
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." What was the Jewish view:
"Idolatry, murder, and
So once again the Jewish and Christians call for death, while Islam calls for 100 lashes. 100 lashes may be a severe punishment but at least it's not stoning to death, strangulation until death, or being burned alive....
"And yes, I would say that your last two paragaphs are interesting, as you say. Interesting as a piece of deception, sadly. Christians do not ignore the fact, as you falsely claim, that God, under the terms of the Mosaic covenant with Israel, commands the death penalty for those who engage in homosexual activity. But the New Covenant is not a theocracy as the Old Covenant was (and as Islam claims to be). If I see someone commit a crime, do I arrest him and bring him to the church to be tried, convicted and sentenced? No, I report him to the police, who will refer him to the judiciary because the church has no authority to deal with criminals in terms of civil or criminal law. It is the state which deals with this. Individuals, now or in the past, who have tried to accord the church this level of authority, are in serious error." Where or when did Jesus tell people to forget everything that God had told them before? I guess the Old Testament is fine for pointing out what may or may not be a prophesy of Jesus, but any commands from God or any of that God is One stuff not so much..... It must be nice to get to pick and choose what you want to believe: we'll just take the easy stuff with lot's of sinning but no real punishment please.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:43am
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"Again, especially for you, Doo-bop - No, "Islam does not call for their execution" " ------Ok, let's assume what you're saying is true. If Islam does not call for their execution, what does it call for?"
Not their death, as was pretty clear from The Quran and Islamic schools of thought. Islamically, whenever something is unclear we should always revert back to The Quran. Nope, no death penalty there, just punishment for adultery.
I'm sorry, what was the punishment for homosexuality in Christianity again? The exact words of Jesus regarding the subject, please.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:24am
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Act 1 Scene Two "Hear ye, hear ye," saith little Servie with a megaphone, the town crier who ill-advisedly smoked a hooka with the caterpillar and was thus catapulted back in time to John Calvin's Geneva. Here is a daily reading from holy writ: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established ... The authorities that exist have been established by God ... For [the ruler] is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer ..." (Romans 13:1-4) Now, stating it in the King's English, bring out your sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers and idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (Rev 22:15) and let them face the executioner, that is to say, the ruler, here in the public square. And let them, as St. Paul says, be afraid; let them, in fact, be very afraid! {Break for one-minute deodorant advert.} Serv _____________________________ Help! My so-called culture is trying to subtly convince me to become a hermaphrodite!
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:39am
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Interesting verses.
�The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto; but if a person forgives and makes peace, his reward rests with God; He loves not those who do wrong.�
(al-Shura 42: 40) �Good and evil can never be equal. Repel (evil) with that which is better, and see how, then, someone between whom and you was enmity shall become a true friend. Yet none is given such goodness except those who are patient; none is give this but the most fortunate.� (al-Fussilat 41: 34-5) |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:48am
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What's a whoremonger ? Like a pimp ?
And those poor little dogs, Servie. What harm do they do ? You are evil and gonna burn in hellll.
That deodorant is absolutely mingin,' worse than the BO you dirty clat.
lol
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 6:51am
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Thank you Shasta-
"There is nothing in The Quran that orders Muslims to kill homosexuals. The Quran tells the story of Lot and how God killed the inhabitants for their actions, "
My next question- does the typical Muslims feel that they can go up against a cleric and say- You are wrong the Quran does not condone this.
Do you have to remain silent? Is there anyone over this cleric that you can turn to and tell them he is preacing violence?
In theory many Christian Churches have a hierarchy to protect parishoners. We have see that it doesn't always work- the priest scandel, they were moved and not defrocked for their crimes against children.
Is there a hierarchy of clerics in Islam?
Shasta - Basically we are not told to punish or judge the sinner or homosexual- that is GOD's job.
Hebrews 13
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:03am
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Saladin-
Please research those that have been victim of horrible crimes and how when you forgive the criminal you feel a release from their pain. When you forgive you gain control of the situation, take it away from the criminal. You can move on and live past the experience. When you forgive you are no longer consumed with revenge and hate.
It is possible that as a Muslim you can not understand. Maybe you can't forgive without the Holy Spirit. I don't mean this with simple crimes but severe ones. Anyone can forgive the simple crimes, especially if you love the person commiting the crimes- your child lying, stealing. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:09am
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"Salams All,Lets not forget if one converts to Al-Islam all his past sins are forgiven.I can understand if we (people are unable to forgive)If we cant forgive others how can we ourselves ask Allah to forgive us?Allah Knows Best."
So the best thing is to wait until you are your death bed to convert? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:51am
God also tells us that if we hide the sins of our brother He will hide our sins: be Merciful to us.
There is nothing in Islam that commands us to turn into crazed hatchett bearing mobs out looking for hands to chop off or adulterers to lash. Just the opposite. But, when it becomes absolutely necessary, absolutely necessary, then we have prescribed punishment for particular crimes.
However, there is no Islamic government at this time practicing Shariah as it is meant to be practiced, so it is a moot point. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 8:07am
So, Shasta'sAunt, the Quran is Islam. And nothing else is Islam? Anything not found in the Quran cannot be Islam? Interesting.....
Now, I am not "mocking the madhabs". You are. In your earlier post you quoted a summary which pointed out that the Hanafi school "allowed" stoning for a 2nd offence, the Shafii school stipulated stoning for married people guilty of homosexual practice, and the Maliki and Jafari schools stipulated the same penalty as for adultery (without mentioning what that penalty was).------------But now you claim that "not one called for the death of homosexuals." How strange.
Now we come to the quranic penalty for adultery, which you say is the same for homosexual practice. Well, it depends what Quran you are reading. It cannot be the same one that Umar originally knew. As he points out in Sahih Bukhari vol.8 book82 no.817, the verse of the Rajam had gone missing from the Quran, quite unaccountably apparently, but he makes it crystal clear that it had been revealed by Allah, and recited as part of the Quran, and that stoning was indeed the punishment for adulterers, and that muslims should never forget it, even if they could no longer find that verse in the Quran. Seems like some muslims have not forgotten it......
You can persist with your misinformation that "christians call for the death of homosexuals" as long as you like. But I will come back to that later, as well as deal with your other falsifications regarding the Holy Faith.
But for now, can you please inform me where the Quran stipulates 100 lashes for homosexuals (bearing in mind you said that the Quran is Islam)? Failing that, would you be so good as to inform me where the Quran says that the punishment of homosexuals is to be the same as adulterers (again bearing in mind what you said about the Quran being Islam)?
Please bear in mind also, that I am only trying to get at the truth of what Islam says on the issue ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 8:15am
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"However, there is no Islamic government at this time practicing Shariah as it is meant to be practiced"
Auntie, there never has been and there never will be, because noone knows what it is.....  ------------- "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29) |