Saudi women want end to driving ban |
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 6:18am | |
Sister Angela, I just want you to know that I am not being sarcastic when I say that you have better knowledge about Islam in some aspects than me. I have always found throughout my time in this forum the deep insight you and Sister Angel have not only about Islam but other religions and ideologies as well. I am always amazed by the way you and Angel stand up for Islam despite being non-Muslims. In a few threads I have also posted to that effect, expressing my feelings. Regarding the Hadith in question. I cannot add much except that it was revealed in Al-Madinah, when Islam was at its peak and at a time when both men and women lowered their gazes. Personally I would say this Hadith applies more today than at the time it was revealed as our level of Iman is no where near the level of Iman of the early Muslims. Peace |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:09am | |
neither could I, as a male, or my wife. That fatwa was an extreme position by Saudi clerics that has subtones of "male control" in the name of faith written all over it. As a man, I do not want a helpless automaton to mother my children. Children should be raised by the best.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:05am | |
Obviously a "wahabi" run site will feel insecure about a woman "driving", and will uphold the Saudi view (no one should be suprised, these are the same guys that denounce mawlid as innovation, kufr, shirk, etc, etc). Their reasoning is weak as it plays on "doorway theology". Such and such thing "may" lead to something, therefore it is not permissible. (which is the excuse the Saudis give when they rip apart and destroy ever remaining bit of Islamic history to make way for high rise hotels and parking lots to bilk hajjis out of their money.) There is no good reason why a woman should not be allowed to drive, as long as the distance does not exceed a certain amount and then she will require a guardian, which still does not mean she cannot drive. In my opinion, religion becomes a tool for a weak minded and insecure male culture to bolster their position in relation to females as a means to control them. Face it, many male Muslims have the female dress code down like second nature, and will go to all lengths to enforce it with great zeal in the name of God...if only many males had the same drive to enforce their fard prayers and sunnah prayers. Countries like Saudi Arabia have turned nearly half of its population into unproductive, uneducated servants in the name of religion. This is why I have found that when some Saudi men are stationed in the US for training, they enroll their daughters in driving school and sometimes even swimming lessons (depending on their age of course). The real issue that needs to be brought out is the idea of culture vs religion.
"Dr. Afaf Al-Bar, associate professor of Arabic at King Abdul Aziz University, agrees with Al-Qarni that Islam does not prohibit women from driving. �But the problem is that our society is not ready for women driving yet,� she said. Even though she can drive abroad, she does not think that the social environment in the Kingdom is suitable for women driving. �There are also problems such as lack of parking facilities, bad road conditions and reckless driving,� she added." http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=37 834&d=11&m=1&y=2004 Allah knows best Edited by Andalus |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Hayfa
Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 4:31am | |
You know there was a thread on this awhile ago.. same issue, women driving in SA. Limiting women from driving, as if it some special thing is really about control. Let me ask, why do they not allow women to drive with husband, father present? Are they not prohibited from driving at all? Why shouldn't they be allowed to drive period? Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion Is this not true if the man is busy at work and cannot spare time for his wife, thus neglecting his "husbandly" duty? how many husbands go to work and then head out with their brother friends, living the wife alone at home. Happens alot. Here in the west, people take what is called "sick leave." You take a day off. Obviously it is about whether you are wealthy enough to do so. Driving is not specific to only women who are doctors, teachers, etc if the ban is lifted every women who wished to drive will drive. What is so wrong when a scholar who can foresee the Fitnah that will come to his society to try and prevent it by warning his people of the evil consequences?
Yes nut it is not even allowed for doctors, teachers etc. There are no exceptions. So where is the practical, even basic level covered? Let's saya woman is a doctor. Her patient is in labor, about to give birth. She needs to go and get there. It is 10 minutes away. So she has to find someone to come and get her? Where in the world is the logic?
When I was in Pakistan there were women driving. And Pakistan is a fairly conservative society. Not a lot of women drove. But some did. So it is wrong to say if it is allowed all women will "start doing it."
Why do we need female nurses for men hospitalised. There are even male nurses.
Well the reality is that women have been nurses in all societies. And it cannot be denied that women were nurses during the Prohet's time. And if it was fine then it is fine now.
You cannot have it both ways. Women are the more nautural "at caretaking." If a woman is more natural at being "motherly" so are nurses. We nurture the sick, old, young, etc.
Yes women can go to male doctors. And if you want to have an Islamic society it is also good to have women nurses. Most women in Moslem societies do not want to get naked for check-ups with male doctors. And giving birth etc. It is good for decency and such.
I have no problem is someone shows with Quran and Hadith that something is such and such. What is more of an issue is this man"s "reasoning." But there is nothing that says in any place that women should be completely prohibited from driving. Even with a mahram present. They make an outright prohibition for teachers, doctors etc. So it appears to put and classify all women and this is not at all right. I wil lbe judged upon Judgement Day. Just like any man. If I over step the line then I live with that. But to deny me my rights as a human being cause "i might" so something wrong, it to treat me as a child. And in fact treat men as chidlren. Really.
Of course they can do what they want. But we can have opinions.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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seekshidayath
Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
Posted: 28 September 2007 at 6:56pm | |
You cannot expect women to be so dependent on men that they cannot live their lives without one. This is not what God wants, he doesn't want us to be slaves of circumstance and he certainly doesn't want us to sit at home miserable because there is no chaperon to take us to the library. Idle hands serve the devil. Angela if circumstances demand to work then there's nothing wrong in that. But its wrong to say women are so dependant on men. Likewise, i would say here that in such cases where women are at home, even men are very dependant on her. Being idle is also wrong. I totally agree that it serves devil. Awoman has got lots of her talents hidden. Its only we need to recognize them utilise it. Wives of our Prophet SAWS, also did businesses, did we ever happen to read that they were on any trip. For instance take the case of our Prophet who before bestowed with prophethood worked for kHADIJAH RA, She was a renowed businesswoman. Did she happen to come out. Even the other wives of prophet, did various bussineses being at home. Woman can educate a society being at home. U said u wish to serve commuinty and shall complete a course of computers. Its not necessary that u work at else insitutes rather open them at home. Start up with 2 computers atleast. Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion. At other cases, what shall a woman do when her children demand her attention when they are ill? Such situations be it small require utmost attention of a woman and can be fulfilled only by a woman. As i said earlier, woman can beautify her own world being at home itself. Am sorry am off topic of driving. I totally agree with the fatwa of saudi. But as marked by sis Alwardah, that the fatwa shall vary st places. |
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
Posted: 28 September 2007 at 6:40pm | |
Staying at all home all the times doe sn't mean you stay at home even when iits necessary. Woman are allowed to come out only when the necessity demands. Yes, we need medical doctors and in the field of medicine. Why do we need female nurses for men hospitalised. There are even male nurses. When women shout up the slogans of "EQUALITY", then why don't they participate along the other soldiers at war fields. Why are female nurses not allowed there. Infact we nursing is very much required. Why do they have male nurses? There i few tasks which can very well be handled by men and few by women. Let them handle those tasks respectively. Why to get into the shoes of one another? It does n't mean they are n't equal. They are superior in one task or the other. We are asked to change our path when seems to crop of any fitnah. Path in the sense any other option to accomplish that task. Praying at home is preferable does not mean that that women are not permitted to go to the mosque, as is clear from the following hadeeth: You can show your husband {Angela] these hadith of sahih Muslim. Abdullah b. Umar reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say: Don't prevent your women from going to the mosque when they seek your permission. Bilal b. 'Abdullah said: By Allah, we shall certainly prevent them. On this'Abdullah b. Umar turned towards him and reprimanded him to harshly as I had never heard him do before. He ('Abdullah b. Umar) said: I am narrating to you that which comes from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and you (have the audicity) to say: By Allah, we shall certainly prevent them. (Book #004, Hadith #0885) Edited by seekshidayath |
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 28 September 2007 at 6:02pm | |
As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu My comment �Men work outside the home, women work inside the home - so simple.� in my last post was in bad taste. There was no way I was implying that we don�t need female teachers, doctors, nurses etc.
Neither did the scholars in the fatawa I posted make such a claim. This thread was about Saudi women asking to lift the ban on driving. The fatawa I post was by Saudi scholars explaining the reason why driving in their society will be a disaster quoting from the Glorious Qur'an and Hadith. Because the Fatawa did not agree with our way of life and our thinking we were offended by it. Shaikh ibn Baz (Rahimahullah) was the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia. He had more rights to decide what is right or wrong for his people then you and me. He did not issue the Fatawa for us but for his own community, the scholar who presented his view stated we should refer this matter to our own scholars. On the other hand, like most Fatawas it can also apply to all Muslim women where ever they live.
There is no scholar that I know of who does not encourage women to become doctors, teachers and taking up other worthwhile professions. But all such activities must comply with the teachings as laid down by the Shariah. No mixing of sexes etc.
Where there is a need the scholars don�t deprive a woman of her rights. If a woman cannot find a female doctor she can be examined by a male doctor. If there are no colleges for women to study medicine, she can go to a co-ed college or university as long as she is wearing proper Hijab and keeping contact with the male students to the minimum.
Islam is a beautiful religion and so easy to follow. We are the ones who are putting obstacles in our way and making things difficult for ourselves.
Driving is not specific to only women who are doctors, teachers, etc if the ban is lifted every women who wished to drive will drive. What is so wrong when a scholar who can foresee the Fitnah that will come to his society to try and prevent it by warning his people of the evil consequences?
Did not the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) warn us that Zina, drinking alcohol, dealing with interest, will be things that the Muslims will indulge in without shame towards the end of time. Don�t we see it happening today? What will be, will be? The scholars have a duty to warn us, the choice is ours to listen or ignore. Just as it is our choice to accept Islam fully or piece-meal or not at all.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our shortcomings and protect us from our own whims and desires. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Edited by Alwardah |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 28 September 2007 at 5:57pm | |
Hi Angela, It is so obvious that you are more knowledgeable about Islam than me, maybe you could enlighten me about the circumstances why this particular Hadith does not apply today and only during the time of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) so I can show it to my husband as proof � �see this Hadith does not apply today now I can go to the Masjid without your permission.� Take care Peace
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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