S. Korean hostages beaten for Christ

Tom, do you actually deny that these people were missionaries??? Or that the goal of missionaries is to convert?? Next you'll be denying their very existence!

  

Tom123 wrote:    The occupation forces are not Christian, neither in name or in nature.

First of all, they are Christian by name. Why do you keep denying the obvious?

As for them not being "TRUE" Christians, well how do you know those Koreans were "True" Christians???

And of course every Christian defines "true Christianity" in their own way (Catholic, Orthodox, Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, Protestants, Evangelicals.......etc. Who are the "TRUE" Christians???)

    

Tom123 wrote:  The 'war on terror' is not supported by most Christians

Is that why Bush was re-elected after making war on both Afghanistan and Iraq??

 

Tom123 wrote:   Did you know that Islamic mission groups operate in North America and South Korea? According to your logic, should they not be in Muslim countries helping their own poor people and fighting against their unjust and corrupt rulers? Should we tell them to leave all of the non-Muslim countries and go back home and convert everyone there to Islam and solve all of their problems back home before they show their faces in non-Muslim lands? And then let's say why not kidnap a group and shoot one or two to make an example of them?

First of all, a lot of religious Muslims were arrested by the United States and their allies right after 9/11 and kept in prison without trial and most of them are still being tortured in prison after 6 years without any evidence that they had anything to do with 9/11 (the US Government has not even proven bin Laden to have had anything to do with 9/11, let alone the Guantanamo prisoners)

Secondly the United States has NOT been invaded by Muslims the way Afghanistan and Iraq have been invaded by people who (at least in name) are Christians. I assure you that if the US was invaded by Muslims, not only missionaries but most other Muslims would have been mercilessly murdered as we see the US and their allies doing right now in Iraq and Afghanistan where they do not even spare small children.

And lastly, you gave a very poor example since Muslim missionaries coming from countries where 90-99% are Muslims, where finding non-Muslims is quite rare.

    

Tom123 wrote: They were not doing anything to help the occupation. Even if they were converting people, that wouldn't be of much help to the occupation since Christianity opposes war and injustice.

There are millions of christians who would disagree with you, including the very people who originally compiled your Bible.

Israfil wrote: Tom123 the thing you must realize is regardless how you feel, majority of muslims are skeptical of missionaries regardless whether their intentions are good or otherwise. There have been "good christian folk" who has called muslims "devils and needed to be saved" kind of similar to that of the African slaves in the 1600 when they arrived on the shores of West Virginia of course not making this a race issue but to show you that good peacekeeping missionaries have been acting for God since the 1600's. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that let's say these individual acted out of pure good intention without the intent to convert my question is who knew they were Christian? Couldn't they keep their belief private knowing the cultural sensitivities there? Unless their beliefs were forced out by the Taliban captors, I don't see it necessary for them to reveal their beliefs. Contrary to what you think Tom123 (although you make it sound like Islamispeace is the only muslim who speaks out against injustice) I think its wrong to kidnapp anyone unless during a time of war and the captors are part of an established army. The Taliban, in my opinion are outlaws, savages, and cowards. I however don't support them but at the same time the Korean missionaries or any missionary need to have some type of rational judgement when it comes to helping others (but the subtle message is to convert the muslim heathens). Tom123 you must als understand that we (at least I myself) am skeptical on why you are here. I have been here as you may know, since '03 and have seen people come and go and have seen missionaries of all kinds come here and preach the "word" without even trying to get to know Islam. It is obvious that you have no intent to at least know Islam. It is obvious as it is indicated in your writings that you don't even hold Islam as an Abrahamic faith nor do you agree with its tenents because, they don't reflect yours of course the same can be said about Judaism but that is pointless now. My main concern in this situation are the people in those regions who need adequate attention. Frankly they don't need to hear about Jesus they need to hear about whether their lights are going to come on and the other biological necessities humans need. If missionaries want to impress me have the bog wig Christians donate the millions of money they steal...err...I mean get from their churches and donate it to the U.S. military so they can speed up the process of building facilities that serve the people. Tom123 you have indicated that your intent is indeed selfish not purely altruistic especially when you talk about where you're going after you die. I mean, how confident can you be? So you can imagine that same cockiness you have the missionaries that go to these 3rd world countries and preach to the poor. I wish I can be that confident in my destination.

  
   Israfil,
   Point out where these Koreans called muslims 'devils' and then we can talk. I haven't seen any evidence of them personally expressing arrogance towards Muslims.

   Why I am here? Actually islamispeace invited me on this forum because we are having a long-running discussion that we have decided to continue in the 'Interfaith' section. Yes, I am here as a Christian. I don't deny that. I'm looking forward to interfaith discussion/dialogue/debates with Muslims. I am here to exchange opinions and listen to your beliefs and share mine with you. That is my purpose for being on this forum.

   There are a lot of beliefs in Islam that I do believe in (ie existence of God, prophets, helping the poor, opposing injustice), I am not thinking of converting and that wasn't my goal in coming here.

   Lastly, you make it sound like all missionaries and/or Christian aid workers are supportive of the US policies. Have you heard of Mennonite Central Committee? ChristianAid? Development&PEace? Lutheran World Relief? Christian Peacemaker Teams?

   I don't understand how my intent is selfish. I am not expecting rewards from God for doing good, He has already rewarded me by promising me eternal life. I do what I do to serve God, and I do that out of gratitude for what He has done for me, not because I expect any reward from Him.

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

 

Hayfa wrote: As to the specific type of work they were doing, they were working with children and supplying medicine to people. They went to organize "medical activities and activities for children," according to Kim Hyung-suk, president of the Korean Foundation for World Aid, which organized the trip. 1. Well why could they not donate their materials to Red Crescent? The issue I have Tom, is that you make this big post about these few people who are donig things "in Christ" and went to a war-tornm country, with complete lack of ignorance and treid to help these poor non Christian people. A group of people quite well known to be strong evangelicals. You are right, none of us were there to know their true motivations. My parents did international aid / missionary work for many years. Of course they felt their motivations were "true," just and honest. But that does not mean they are right Tom.  But you know what, people have gone into these places with terrible, terrible motivations. Of course we want to believe in the "goodness" of people. But you know what, trust is to be earned. Have you ever heard of a group called Central Asia Institute? http://www.ikat.org/  It is one of the few nonMoslem groups I support in that region. Why? Cause it has the respect of the local people there. The man who runs it is phenomenal. It is about respect. Too many people go over there in that region who do not respect the people, their views, etc. Are people her skeptical. I think so. And if you look at the history and experiences of people from around the world they have every right to be.

   Hi Hayfa,
 
   I certainly realize there are people who go on 'missions' and lie and cheat people or try to force their beliefs on them. Skepticism is certainly OK. What is not OK is throwing around condemnations and attacking people without any evidence, as I have seen happen. If you have any concrete evidence of them doing wrong, show it.
 
   These people came to bring medical aid to Afghans, they were kidnapped and beaten, some were killed. I feel their treatment was wrong and I am full of admiration for them for going to help and living out their faith in Christ, Who calls on Christians to help others.

   If you or anyone can prove that these people did bad or terrible things or had 'sinister motives', please show me your evidence.

   BTW you say that the above mentioned group is 'one of the few non-Muslim groups' you support in the region. Why are you supporting Muslim groups? How can you be sure that they aren't trying to spread Islam with their humanitarian work?

   BTW not all Afghans are Muslim, even if the majority of them are. Do the Muslim NGOs try to help the non-Muslims as well? And if they do, what if they are spreading Islam? How do you know they aren't?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_ Afghanistan

   Cristo Vive!
        - Tomasz

Tom123 then allow me to officially change my opinion and give you the benefit of the doubt. Although this interfaith dialogue doesn't accomplish anything at least you have thus far acknolwegded your intentions.

Regarding the Christian Missionaries

I didn't say specifically that the Korean missionaries called the muslims "devils" rather, I'm merely indicating the running opinion of mainstream evangelical christianity. Time and time again I have heard that missionaries are out to do the work of "Jesus" by preaching the word of God to the godless (that being muslims).

Regarding altruism

Tom123 in my opinion when people do charity especially when such charities are associated with religion it usually generates this feeling that one is doing good for the deity they worship, but, in essence, such charitble acts as I have experienced personally are done because there is usually a blessing or reward. Obviously religionist like yourself will not admit to the fact that what they do are inherently selfish of course not and I wouldn't expect you or others to admit that. But haven't you ever done something that makes you feel good and you find yourself doing that again because it makes you feel good (as well as the person whom you're helping)?

Scientifically speaking we are attracted to the things that makes us feel good whether its sex or charity we do certain things based on our biological chemistry. Seeing the smile from a child after give him/her a toy makes us feel good inside because we are seeing the fruits or labor so to speak. When it comes to religion this generates the same results. People do things for God because obviously they link moral action with religious teachings but an incentive to doing moral good is the future paradise that we end up in once we die. You mentioned this briefly by saying if you were to die you know you'd go to heaven. Not just because you were baptized but because you feel in heart that what you do as a Christian you would be rewarded for. Christians may operate on similar though processes by doing missionary work. Although they may not admit to acting for self-interest their actions whether good intention or not is not pure altruistic.

Tom123 think about it in your chair for a second that, there is no such thing as pure altruism in this word. Humans are selfish creatures and its not necessarily a bad thing but merely a biological process in our brains that trigger a "reward mechanism" when certain beneficial actions take place. with that being said I'm continuously skeptical of mssionaries who say they are doing the work of Christ because their reasons are religiously motivated not necessarily humanitarian. Of course the humanitarian part is second but take into account the prioritization.

Edited by Israfil