A Simple Way to Experience Christ

Angel wrote: minuteman wrote: After all you say that Jesus was a god. And holy spirit is a god. So how many gods are there while there is only One True God. Does it mean the other gods are not the true Gods?? hi minuteman, what they are saying is that Jesus is God not a god and the same with the holy spirit, is God not a god. There is a bit of a difference when you say "is" compared to "is a". So Jesus and the Holy Spirit is God (while being separate).

Angel,

If that is what they are saying then it remains complicated, ambiguous, and contradictory. Something that is infinite remains so without change. This was the same problem they encountered [while being unable to answer my inquiries]. When you are referring to qualities of God the Christian view are holding those qualities while they are present and existing [which is fine]. However when one states that those qualities are present and existing along side from other qualities then we come into play with words and seem to separate those things. For example there is no simple way to experience Christ if you say:

"Jesus was humble because he prayed to the Father."

This is a complicated view since Christians believe the Father and Jesus are one and the same. Since Christians also believe that God and Jesus are one and the same being then it is obvious that Christians believe in the dual nature of the Creator [to be both human and divine being]. To explain this in a way regular people understand has been done over and over and people end up believing it, especially when they incorporate the "your soul needs saving part" however, all of this makes no sense.

Angel let me tell you why that statement you said made no sense from the Muslim perspective.

1) God is infinite [unlike the universe which exists ad infinitum] therefore remains constant and unchanging. what I mean by unchanging means that God does not change position, or needs to anthromorph into a lesser creature [there is a deeper Islamic philosophy behind this I'll explain].

2) There are infinite qualities of God some which are explained in the Qur'an as the 99 names of God. This too has a deeper meaning. But there are more qualities to God than 99. 99 is limiting number but it is said so it is to give humans an understanding that God has many great qualities and also to show his dominance over the universe.

3) If there exists any change in God it would have been implied in the Qur'an, but since it is understood by muslims that God is "unlike any creature comprehensible" it is thus maintained that the status of God remains constant.

4)In Islam, God has made it clear that it is unnecessary for him to change his nature [i.e. going from a status of divine infinity to a temporal nature we find in the Christian Jesus]. Because in the Christian text the sacrifice of the human Jesus according to the Christian doctrine, in order for humans to be alleviate the sin of the past God "needed" a sacrifice. Therefore, it took a "sinless" human to be an acceptable avatar for redemption. Muslims believe that God while unchanged, can redeem sin and that all sins are individualistic not something that is genetically transmitted, a view Christians have maintained throughout centuries.

5) The history of sin in the Christian view started with Adam therefore, since Adam is the progenator of the human race then all humans thereafter suffer the ignorance of Adam. In Islam each human being is held accountable for their own sins which does not require a "god man/holy-spirit-god man creature to redeem the world. What is required is repentence from the action.

I'll admit that when one getd into the fold of Islam there are things that become complicated. Religions themselves have complicated certain things but other things are not complicated. I find the Christian view of the nature of God, the nature of sin and the nature and history of the world to be flawed and ambiguous. If Christians believe that God is infinite in nature then we therefore cannot separate qualities apart from qualities and maintain this believe that those qualities run independent of other qualities [such as saying God is the Holy Spirit e.g one independent quality, then God is Jesus e.g. another independent quality]. All of these things are difficult, confusing and confounding.

I'll admit God is beyond our understanding and no religion can simplify God no matter what doctrine they read. However, I firmly believe God has left "imprints" on the world like clues for us to examine. Like I said earlier there is no simple way to experience spirituality. Spirituality can become as complex as we want or as simple as we want. Simplicity is not universal to everyone else. I keep telling these evangelist that reading scripture helps some but does not help others. This is why I say simplicity is not universal.

  Coming back to a simple way to experience Christ.

  Arguing about the Trinity is not a simple way to experience Christ. That is for sure.

  However, God is so willing to receive repent sinners that He is depicted as the father running to receive back the prodigal son in Luke 15. His eagerness to manifest Himself to the sinner who acknowledges her or his need for the Savior Jesus is very evident.

 This makes it simple to experience Jesus. I do not mean that what God has gone through is simple. I do not mean that what Jesus has accomplished in His life, death, and resurrection is simple. I am saying that because of the willingness of God to receive the repentent sinner at any time He is available and simple to touch, if we confess our need for the Savior.

 I think a simple prayer "Lord Jesus, I need your salvation" would be enough to cause a person to be touched by the Holy Spirit, and they would know that SOMETHING is happening.

 I think a simple prayer "Lord Jesus. I believe. Help my unbelief. Lord Jesus I am open in my heart to You. Help my unopeness Lord" would be effective to sense the powerful Holy Spirit coming into one's heart.

I say again He is so willing. It is righteous for Him to come to us and make Himself real to us if we trust in the Son of God. Listen to this passage:

 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

 I would draw your attention to the word "righteous". Because of the death of Christ on our behalf it is the righteous thing for God to forgive the one who trusts in Jesus and confesses his sins. RIghteousness is the foundation of God's throne. He must be righteous.

 This passage does not say that He is merciful to forgive us. It says that God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins if we confess with faith in Jesus. Of course God is merciful. But this passage emphasizes that it is the RIGHT Thing for God to do to forgive us in the name of Jesus.

 In a sense even if He does not like us, He is bound by His own righteousness to forgive us because of the redemptive death of Christ in which we trust. This gives us great boldness to say "Lord God, because of Jesus and His cross you HAVE to forgive me. I believe, therefore you are bound by your own great righteous nature to forgive me. Lord even if you don't love me you are RIGHTEOUS to forgive me because I believe in Christ."

  This is a bold and effective way which is also simple - to experience the living Christ.

 Try it.

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We are back to square one, Jocko. You are still trying to experience Jesus only, which, in my opinion, is not necessary.

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  You are mistaken. Emphatically and absolutely, I mean this as coming to Jesus us coming into the experience of God. There should be no question about this.

 Now you tell me, in this passage does Jesus Christ intend that we understand that it is necessary to experience Him [Jesus] in order to experience God or not?

 "Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

 Is Jesus teaching there that He is not necessary for a person to come to His Father?

 "Jesus therefore said to them, Truly,truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within yourselves" (John 6:53).

 In the above passage does Jesus intend to teach that He is not necessary for us to experience God? If you say yes or you are not sure this indicates that you do not understand the significance of the phrase "have life within yourselves".

 This means to have God living in you. He is the uncreated, divine, and eternal life. We are truly back to square one. To know God is to have God within as the divine and eternal life.

 Going back to one of your favorite passages. Do you think here Jesus intends to teach that He is not necessary in the experience of God?

 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3)

  The divine life which we receive is knowing the true only God "AND Him" whom the true God has sent, Jesus Christ. It seems that you read the passage and want to omit "AND HIM" for the knowing of the divine and eternal life of God. This is a matter of true submission to God's way.

 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24)

  In this passage is Jesus teaching that He is not necessary for the experience of God and being saved from your sins by God?

 And I would add BMZ, not only is Jesus necessary to know God, but God is necessary for a man to come to know Jesus!

  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

  It would be acceptable for a person then to pray to God to allow him to come to Jesus. For without the drawing of God no one can come to Jesus either.

   "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day" (John 6:40)

 Here it is necesssary not merely to believe that a Jesus lived. God's will is that we believe INTO Him. We enter into the sphere and realm of this living Person who Himself is the life of God.

 Isn't Jesus teaching that He is necessary here to know God as the divine life?

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You have to try to experience God, the LORD Almighty, the LORD of everyone, the LORD Almighty of Jesus too. 

Do you remember how he taught to pray and to whom?

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   Yes I remember. I also remember that Jesus teaches that we are to ask Him in our praying also:

  "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it" (John 14:14).

  Asking in His name is not a formality. Nor does He mean any whim or wish, we may ask of Christ in prayer and receive.

 Asking Him [Jesus] in His name means that we are living and abiding in Him and praying according to the will of God.

 For we are taught to believe INTO Him as I mentioned before. And we are taught to remain, linger, and abide in Him. Without Him we can do nothing. That means without abiding in Him in His resurrected state as the Holy Spirit we can do nothing for the eternal purpose of God. And all that we do without Him will amount to nothing.

 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman ... Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:4,5).

 It is about living in God. It is about God living in a mingled and blended way with man. It is about God and man uniting together in an "organic" (so to speak) blending.