This evening is late when I started this new subject. So I will not contribute to it much tonight.

   If the Moderators allow it to stand the subject here is a simple way to touch and contact Jesus Christ and God. I started this discussion because of the comments made about the lack of simplicity some of Christians undergo in trying to help people understand the Trinity or the nature of God.

   I say that being able to explain the mystery of God to some full extent was never set by God as a criteria that one had to fulfill before coming to know God.

   I don't know how this thread will progress. But I intend to talk about the simplicity of experiencing Christ. I hope that the original posters who prompted me to start this line of discussion will not now complain that it is TOO simple minded.

 Remember, here, in this line of discussion, my goal  (at least) is to present simplicity in "a simple way to experience Christ". This of course means a simple way to experiene the Christian God Who is the Triune God - the Father Son and Holy Spirit God of our Bible.

 Two key words are important in this line of thought - "simple" and "experience".   I hope someone will benefit from this line of discussion.

  This discussion from my persepective emphasizes two words - Simple and Experience.

  It will not benefit those who are not interested in Experience. This is not "A Simple Way to Defend the Christian Faith". Some of you are already looking for me to do that.

   This is a Simple Way to Experience Jesus Christ. You would be well advized to consider that it is possible to experience this Son of God and be open minded and opened in your heart.

   1.) Does this mean that there is only one way to experience Jesus Christ ?  No.

   2.) Does this mean that enjoying Jesus Christ only boils down to method.  No.

   3.) Does this mean that there could never be any counterfeit or pretense of the use of this "way".  No.

        Perhaps if you wanted to apply this "method" insincerely you would have negative results.

   I say this for those who are eager to criticize. I already anticipate the kinds of objections some of you may have.

   With that said I will go on to a Simple Way to come into touch with Jesus and enjoy His reality.

   A simple way to experience the resurrected and living Lord Jesus is by calling on His name. That is calling on His name with a belief in your heart that He will hear you. I will give you many examples.

   The first time I called "Jesus" with the intent to be heard by Jesus God became real to me. If you call "Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus" you can meet God.

   If you call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus" you can have the Spirit of Jesus Christ move into your heart. The word "O" or "Oh" kind of functions to open you up in this case.  "O Lord Jesus, Lord I love you" is effective. If you don't feel that you love Jesus that much He certainly loves you. You can call "O Lord Jesus. Thankyou Lord. You LOVE me."

   Perhaps you WANT to love Him. You can meet Christ by calling "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I want to love you more. O Lord Jesus."

  When Saul (alias Paul)  was persecuting the Christian church he identified them by hearing them call on the Lord Jesus. The disciple sent to baptize the repentant Saul protested to God that Saul was persecuting all the ones calling on the name of Jesus:

 "But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from may concerning this man, how many evil things he has done to YOur saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon your name" (Acts 9:13,14).

  Saul heard the Christians in their houses calling "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus." He got permission to arrest and bind all those who called on the name of Jesus. That is how he identified the believers.

 They were practicing a simple way to enjoy the Lord Jesus Christ as thier Savior and Lord.

  Latter the Apostle Paul explicitely taught the Christians:

  "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

  Please don't ask me if you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead FIRST or whether you confess "Lord Jesus" with your mouth first.  Maybe you believe in your heart first that Jesus is raised and alive and you call on His name "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus Christ."

  Perhaps you don't know if you believe, but you come to see calling "O Lord Jesus". God knows which comes first. But the Scriptures says:

  'That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.

  For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame.  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him;

 For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." ' (Rom. 10:9-11).

   Believe in your heart that God has raised the Lord Jesus from the dead.

   Confess with your mouth and call out to Him "Lord" as in "Lord Jesus"

    Open wide your heart and open wide your mouth calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus come into my heart."

    As in the days of Saul or Tarsus so it is today. We can experience the resurrected and living Lord Jesus by calling on His name "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus."

   "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:12,13).

   "Calling on the name of the Lord is the secret not only to our salvation but also to our enjoying of the Lord's riches. Beginning with Enosh, the third generation of mankind, and continuing all the way down to the New Testament believers, God's chosen and redeemed pnes enjoyed Christ's redemption and salvation and all His riches by means of this secret." (Footnote 13(1) of Rom. 10:13 Recovery Version Bible)

   Do you know what wonderful things can happen to you if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and you call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus?"

  You believe in your heart. You confess with your mouth "Lord Jesus". The Lord is very important. That means that you receive this risen Christ as Lord of all. You don't have to be able to fully comprehend the Trinity. You just desire to receive and enjoy the riches of Christ. So you call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus come into me. Lord Jesus I want to enjoy all of your riches. O Lord Jesus."

  He is rich to all who call upon Him.

  When the people, both disciples and unbelievers, heard that Saul had become a disciple of Jesus they were amazed. They remembered that he was the one who persecuted those who had been calling "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus".

  "And all who heard him were amazed and said, Is this not the one who ravaged those who call upon this name in Jerusalem" (Acts 9:21)

   When the disciple baptized Paul he commanded him to do what he had been persecuting others for, calling on the name of Jesus. And Paul surely did so.

 "And now, why do you delay? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)

   Probably Paul went down into the water calling "Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus! Now I believe in you Lord Jesus !"

 And as he wrote in his letter to the Romans, he found out that Christ was rich to him who calls upon His name. His mercy was rich. His presence was rich. His glory and His peace were rich.

 The more he called "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus" the richer was his experience of Jesus Christ. It can be the same with us today.

 If you call on the name of the Lord Jesus for five minutes I think your spirit and your heart will be burning within you with God's holiness and God's majesty.

So we should call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord You are rich to all who call upon your name. Lord Jesus I want to enjoy how rich you are. O Lord Jesus."

  Like David told us - he loved the Lord because the Lord heard his voice. If you call out to the Lord Jesus in truth with a heart to contact Him He will respond. He will hear your voice !

 "I love Jehovah because He hears my voice, my supplications, Because He inclines His ear to me. Therefore I will call upon Him all my days" (Psalm 116:1).

 We can call out again "O Lord Jesus" to be in the Holy Spirit. I said we call Lord Jesus to be in the realm of the Holy Spirit.

  Here is how I found out:

 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).

  It is really hard to call "O Lord Jesus" and not be in the Holy Spirit of God. No one can say "Lord Jesus" except in the Holy Spirit the apostle said. So if we want to be in the realm of the Spirit of God we should by all means confess with our mouths "Lord ... Lord Jesus. O LORD Jesus."

   "  and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit"

  So say I rise up in the morning. And when I open my eyes I begin to call -

   "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus."  The more we  call on the name of Jesus the more we come into the sphere and realm of the Holy Spirit.

  Now there is some help further. We should call from a pure heart. We are told to call on the Lord Jesus from a pure heart. A pure heart is an uncomplicated heart. A pure heart is a heart focused on one goal.

 A divided heart is complicated because it is focused on more than one goal. We should call with a pure motive to touch Jesus the Lord. We have a single goal in our calling. Our single and pure goal is to experience Jesus Himself.  Our pure motive is to touch God Himself. Yes, that is right. We should call Lord Jesus with a single heart to touch God Himself. 

  "But flee youthful lust, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 tim. 2:22).

 If we touch the Lord Jesus we will touch righteousness. If we touch Jesus we will receive faith. We will also receive love and peace. He is rich to all who call upon Him. We touch His riches by calling on Him to touch Him.

 All these riches come to us by out touching Christ Himself - calling out of a pure heart to just contact Him. Here is an example:

 "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus I just want You. Lord everything is in You Lord Jesus. All I need is You Lord Jesus. I just want You O Lord. O Lord Jesus I open wide my heart to You."

   This calling is like drinking. It is like the Psalmist who said he lifted up the cup of salvation and called upon the name of the Lord. We drink in God. We drink in the riches of God. We drink in the Holy Spirit when we call from a pure heart "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus. Lord I just want You Lord Jesus."

   "What shall I return to Jehovah for all His benefits toward me?    I will take up the cup of salvation and call upon the name of Jehovah" (Psalm 116:12,13). 

   What is the worthy worship we can offer the Great God? We can take up the cup of salvation, call upon the name of Jesus Christ, and drink God into our being. God is drinkable. God is like a divine beverage.

 And we can call upon the name of the Lord Jesus (He is Jehovah God become a man) and drink down salvation daily.

  Calling on the Lord is like drinking God. It is like drinking the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul told the Corinthian Christians:

  "For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13).

   Whatever our social status God desires that we all be plunged into the Holy Spirit and to drink that into which God has immersed us. We can come into the Spirit of God and drink in God by calling "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I love you. O Lord Jesus cleanse me now of all my sins. Lord Jesus !"

  Please also understand that interfaith section is the place where you engage in dialogue.

  So I post until someone has something to say in response. Then the dialogue can begin.

As a Moderator, I have no objection to your posting of thoughts but peacemaker has rightly pointed out that there should be a dialogue, not postings upon postings.

I would respond now to your post in a few words.

All are in search of God, the Lord Almighty. Moses showed the way to the Lord Almighty. Jesus and Muhammad did the same.

I don't have to go in search of Moses, Jesus or Muhammad.

An example from the Zens: If I point my finger towards the moon, do not look at my finger but look at the moon and appreciate it's beauty direct.

The effort should be to access God, the Lord Almighty, not the Lord Almighty's Servants or Slaves, such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Call upon thy Lord Almighty and the Lord Almighty listens and responds.

BMZ

I don't see how this post has any value to dialogue. The title speaks for itself and it reeks of proseltyzing. It should be properly titled as:

"A simple way to experience Christ AND Islam"

A dialogue is the incorporation of two or more variables and so far I haven't seen the second variable Jocko.

All are in search of God, the Lord Almighty. Moses showed the way to the Lord Almighty. Jesus and Muhammad did the same.

I don't have to go in search of Moses, Jesus or Muhammad.

An example from the Zens: If I point my finger towards the moon, do not look at my finger but look at the moon and appreciate it's beauty direct.

The effort should be to access God, the Lord Almighty, not the Lord Almighty's Servants or Slaves, such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Call upon thy Lord Almighty and the Lord Almighty listens and responds.

    The God has made the name of Jesus the highest name in all the universe. There is no other name as transcendent as the name of the Son of God.

   "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name. That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-1).

   To call  " Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus, OOOOO Lord Jesus " is to call upon the name which God has exalted high above every other name. The name Jesus is higher than the name of Moses. It is higher than the name Mohammed.

  If you don't believe me try calling out to those names and see what will happen. Then open your heart and call "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus Christ".   I dare say by way of comparison you will know in your heart that there is something DIFFERENT about the name Jesus Christ.

 To call on Him is to call on the One to whom every knee will eventually bow and every tongue will eventually confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 So I encourage people not to wait until that day when you must bown your knee to Jesus and you must confess Him as Lord.  If you see Him you will love Him and desire to call on His name voluntarily for iin calling you too are lifted high with Him.

  His name has been given to be the highest name. above all rule and authority and every other name, not only in the present age but in the age to come:

 " ... in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies Far above all rule and authority and power and lorship and every name that is named not only in thi9s age but also in that which is to come" (Eph. 2:20b-21)

   So when you call out "O Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus cleanse me of my sins and come into my heart!"  You are not only calling on the highest name in this world and age but also the highest name in the world and age to follow this one. And this is to the glory of the Father who delight that we would with Him, exalt the name of His Son Jesus Christ as the highest name.

  When we call "Lord ..." that is half of the battle. We acknowledge as the center of the universe and on the throne of God. When we say "Lord Jesus. OOO Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus" we are inviting Him to pour Himself into our hearts through the blessed Holy Spirit.

  The "O"  opens up the closed soul. The "OOO" opens up the shut heart. And "OOOO Lord Jesus" opens the heart to the Lord Jesus that He may enter in. Then forever after you will know that to touch Jesus is to touch God.

Jocko,

You are talking like a Hindu.

The Hindus do that O stuff when they call their Bhagwan and recite Om.

We have to keep in mind that in his most difficult time, Jesus called only the Lord Almighty, when he said,"Elahi, Elahi, Lama sabachthani?"

That is why we can only call upon and recite the name of the Lord Almighty Allah and nobodyelse. We do not even ask or call upon Muhammad.

BMZ

 Do not try to quickly compare calling on the Lord Jesus and say it is like this or that.

  Being shown the sun in the sky, it is easy to say, "Oh that is like this candle in my bedroom." Or "Oh that is just like the dial on my watch that shines in the dark."

  The comparison runs the other way around. It is not calling on the Lord which is like the Hindu calling. It is the other way around.

   Men began to call on God in the third generation of mankind:

  "And to Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of Jehovah" (Gen. 4:26)

   The name Enosh means something like "frail mortal man".  In Genesis at the fourth generation of mankind men began to sense their frailness after the fall of Adam. They felt also far away from God. They wanted to be close to God. So men began to call upon the name of God.

  This was before the invention of all the world's religions except the Devil inspired religion of Cain. To sense the closeness of God men began to call on the name of Jehovah God.

 This same God is the God who sent His Son. He not only sent His Son He came IN the Son. He sent but He also came with the Son. And today we can call on the name of Jesus to draw close to the one God.

  There are many callings and changings. Calling on Jesus is not an imitation of them. They are an imitation and counterfeit of the calling on God which started with the early people in Genesis 4.

  You try calling on the name of Mohammad for five minutes and see if Mohammed will become real to you. Then you call on the name of the Lord Jesus - "O Lord Jesus.  O Lord Jesus. Wash me in your blood Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I call on you."  You will see the difference.

  By calling on the name of the Lord Jesus you will be brought into a holy realm - a divine sphere. The presence of God will overshadow you and you'll know that to touch Jesus is to touch His Father. And to call on Jesus is to receive God into your heart.

  Someone needs to be bold enough to put the matter to the test. You needn't disturb anyone. You needn't make a commotion. Even to whisper the name of Jesus with a heart to touch Him is effective.

 You may contact Jesus by whispering with an open heart - "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. I come to you under your precious blood for the fogiveness ALL of my sins. Lord Jesus receive me. O Lord Jesus."

 This done sincerely is very effective in substantiating the reality of God and knowing that He has justified you in eternal redemption and received you as saved forever.

 "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom 10:13)

Anatolian wrote: Why does Islam need to be incorporated into his post? Yes I understand it's an Islamic site but once it was moved to interfaith dialogue, the main topic he posted was how to find Christ. That's how the thread should be respected and observed. He was probably trying to convey to us that as much as muslims think Christianity is hard to grasp with it's "3 in 1" belief it lacks holiness. Yet Christian prospective is his aim and he wants to show that with all the dogma and symbolism, it is much easier then you think. Yet funny thing is before "The Enlightenment", technological and scientific reason, people somehow understood it more even the simplest of peasants. Now with all our advances in bettering our physical life our spiritual is fadding away. So much for balance...

You know very well thats its an islamic site. We don;t need to experience Jesus. We dpn't exaggerate Prophets and messengers of Allah swt. You people, try to poke in any where , anytime. We have got to  understand your intentions too by now.

Let me see how much you know of  christianity.

What does Bible say about Muhammad {Peace Be upon him}

What is "Alleluya"?

What does Bible say about Muhammad {Peace Be upon him}

What is "Alleluya"?

  The Bible doesn't say anything about Muhammad. It says nothing about Jocko either.

  But it leaves us a simple way to touch God and contact God. We should open our mouths to call on Him.

   I think Alleluya or Hallelujah means to prause "Jah". And Jah is a shot name of Jehovah.

    You people, try to poke in any where , anytime. We have got to  understand your intentions too by now.

   My intentions were stated. To give people a simple way to experience Jesus Christ.

  Did I try to conceal my intentions?

Haaaaah what a wonder

I expected the answer from you folks that Bible does n't speak of Muhammad, Peace be upon him.

According to your {christians} interpretations  the Bible  have so many things to say about rise of soviet Russia  and about the last days and even about the pope of Roman catholics. - Right?

Then Surely , it must  have said about Muhammad Peace be upon him, who had been responsible  for the bringing  into being a world wide  community of millions of believers who, on his authority believe in

1. Miraculous birth of Jesus

2. That jesus is the Messiah

3. That he gave life to the dead by Allah 's permission  abd healed the blind and lepers by God's permission

Surely, it must have spoken if this great leader who  spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary. I shall site those verses in bible very soon insha-Allah. And the other question shall be discussed once we get this cleared.

Anyways, Do u agree that there were 100s of prophecies  regarding the coming of jesus in old testaments

Answer this right now as u are online. I wish to discuss it now .

Jocko wrote:       You people, try to poke in any where , anytime. We have got to  understand your intentions too by now.    My intentions were stated. To give people a simple way to experience Jesus Christ.   Did I try to conceal my intentions?

Though i was refering to that Antonio , but yes, even u abide that. We said u , that we don't exaggerate prophets. Instead call Allah - God, and experience wonders. Just try it atleast once, with purity in your heart. U shall then realise.

Jocko wrote: Do not try to quickly compare calling on the Lord Jesus and say it is like this or that.   Being shown the sun in the sky, it is easy to say, "Oh that is like this candle in my bedroom." Or "Oh that is just like the dial on my watch that shines in the dark."   The comparison runs the other way around. It is not calling on the Lord which is like the Hindu calling. It is the other way around.    Men began to call on God in the third generation of mankind:   "And to Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of Jehovah" (Gen. 4:26)    The name Enosh means something like "frail mortal man".  In Genesis at the fourth generation of mankind men began to sense their frailness after the fall of Adam. They felt also far away from God. They wanted to be close to God. So men began to call upon the name of God.   This was before the invention of all the world's religions except the Devil inspired religion of Cain. To sense the closeness of God men began to call on the name of Jehovah God.  This same God is the God who sent His Son. He not only sent His Son He came IN the Son. He sent but He also came with the Son. And today we can call on the name of Jesus to draw close to the one God.   There are many callings and changings. Calling on Jesus is not an imitation of them. They are an imitation and counterfeit of the calling on God which started with the early people in Genesis 4.   You try calling on the name of Mohammad for five minutes and see if Mohammed will become real to you. Then you call on the name of the Lord Jesus - "O Lord Jesus.  O Lord Jesus. Wash me in your blood Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I call on you."  You will see the difference.   By calling on the name of the Lord Jesus you will be brought into a holy realm - a divine sphere. The presence of God will overshadow you and you'll know that to touch Jesus is to touch His Father. And to call on Jesus is to receive God into your heart.   Someone needs to be bold enough to put the matter to the test. You needn't disturb anyone. You needn't make a commotion. Even to whisper the name of Jesus with a heart to touch Him is effective.  You may contact Jesus by whispering with an open heart - "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. I come to you under your precious blood for the fogiveness ALL of my sins. Lord Jesus receive me. O Lord Jesus."  This done sincerely is very effective in substantiating the reality of God and knowing that He has justified you in eternal redemption and received you as saved forever.  "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom 10:13)

Jocko,

Look at the last line of your quote. The man who penned Romans, did not say Lord Jesus. Clever, isn't it?  He has misled so many Christians.  The only Saviour is the Lord Almighty, who declared that Himself with all integrity in Isaiah.

Have you thoroughly read and understood the Chapter Isaiah?

BMZ

Anatolian wrote: Yes actually the Bible does mention Muhammed.... Jesuse himself said there will be many who will come in the name of His Father but will teach wrongdoings... Look it up.

You will also be pleased to note that Muhammad was not sent to Israel and Muhammad did not teach in the name of anybody's Father.  Think hard on what I just wrote.

BMZ

Anatolian wrote: And Allelujah from what I was always thought was a praise in Hebrew as well as Ameen.

Halleluhah or alleluia simply means Praise to the Lord and in Arabic, we have Al-hamdu-lil-lah. Ameen is Amen, in Arabic.

BMZ

  BMZ,

     Why are you giggling and laughing? You have no case when you point out:

Look at the last line of your quote. The man who penned Romans, did not say Lord Jesus. Clever, isn't it?  He has misled so many Christians.  The only Saviour is the Lord Almighty, who declared that Himself with all integrity in Isaiah.

   If verse 13 leaves you uncertain about Who is the "Lord" one calls upon to be saved, you only need to refer back to verse 9 to grasp the Apostle's meaning:

   "That is if you confess with your mouth JESUS AS LORD [my emphasis] and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved" (Rom.10:9).

   The "Lord" upon which Paul is speaking of is the Lord Jesus Who was raised from the dead.

  And since this Lord Jesus is the very God of the Old Testament incarnate, Paul only needs to confirm with the OT passage - "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" which I believe is a quote from Joel.

  The Lord upon which we must call is the Lord who has passed through the process of incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and exaltation.

  God has passed through a process in order to die for our redemption, rise again, and enter into us to be our life.

  "That is if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved" (Rom.10:9).

  The Lord upon which we must call is the Lord who has passed through the process of incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and exaltation.

  God has passed through a process in order to die for our redemption, rise again, and enter into us to be our life.  [/QUOTE]

Who told and taught you that God passed through the above process and that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Please check with the rightful owners of the original "OT" at this site:

http://jhronline.informe.com/index.php - http://jhronline.informe.com/index.php

BMZ 

  BMZ,

  Who told and taught you that God passed through the above process and that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

      There are two important verses in the New Testament that point to the fact that God has passed through a process. Each passage contains the word "became".

   1. )  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God ... And the Word became flesh ..." (John 1:1,14)

         John 1:14 indicates that God passed through a kind of process. That process we call incarnation. He became flesh. He clothed Himself in the humanity of the created man. The Word became flesh. He became something that He was not in eternity past.

 2.)  " ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

  Here is another step in the process God went through. He became flesh to be manifested among us. Then in resurrection He became a life giving Spirit in order to enter into us, indwell us, and be our spiritual life.

 So these two "becames"  of John 1:14 and 1 Cor. 15:45 prove that God has passed through a process.

  Now when we call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus" we are calling on the God Who first became a man like us and secondly became a life giving Spirit to impart Himself INTO us.

   This process that the Triune God has passed through is the operation that He performed to fulfill His eternal purpose of dispensing Himself into man's being. We cooperate with the eternal purpose of God when we call on the name of the Lord Jesus.

  By calling "O Lord Jesus" the Lord Jesus, Who is the Word Who became flesh and the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit, mingles Himself into our personality. He dispenses Himself into our spirit and begins to spread into our whole being.

 Calling on the Lord Jesus with a sincere heart to touch Him brings the processed God into our being.

 Now, how do we know that this is the God of the Old Testament? It is all over the whole Bible. Isaiah 9:6 indicates that God will have to undergo some kind of wonderful process in order for the Mighty God to become the born child. And some kind of wonderful process had to be accomplished by God in order to make the Eternal Father become the given Son.

  So when we call "O Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus my Savior. Lord Jesus my Lord!" we are calling on that born child and the Mighty God to make Him "unto us".  He becomes subjective and real - unto us. And when we cry "O Lord Jesus ! O Lord Jesus !" we are crying on the Son Who was given to us Who is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

   Though the Triune God is mysterious and "Wonderful" here is a simple way to bring Him into our hearts - calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I love You."

  Amen is also another name for Jesus Christ.

  So when we call "Amen Lord. Amen Lord Jesus. Amen" we are also calling on the name of Jesus.

  Jesus is called the Amen, the beginning of the creation of God:

   "And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).

 You see? Jesus Christ refers to Himself as "The Amen". So Amen is also a name of Jesus.

  The beginning of the creation of God in these passage means that He is resurrected to be the beginning of a new creation. His resurrection from the dead is the beginning of a new creation of God. His resurrection initiates the new realm of the mingling of God and man, the union of God and man, the incorporation of God and man. So He is the Beginning of the new creation. He is the Amen.

 We can also contact God by calling "Amen Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus Amen. Amen! Lord Amen. O Lord Amen!"

 These words are trustworthy. They have been proved true by hundreds of thousands and probably millions.

Anatolian wrote: Yes actually the Bible does mention Muhammed.... Jesuse himself said there will be many who will come in the name of His Father but will teach wrongdoings... Look it up.

As, i said i shall take a special post/thread by Muhhamad Peace be upon him, in Bible.

Coming to the point of Alleluya, Please go thru the post of BMZ, who knew better than you.

I wish to explain it further

Whenever  christians  go into ectasy they say "Alleluya Allelulaya" just as we muslims might exclaim the Takbir "Allahu Akbar ! Allahu Akbar!"

What is Alleluya then?

 Take your Book of Testament , chapter 19 wherein we are informed that John the disciple of jesus saw a vision in which he heard the angels  in heavens singing Alleluya, Alleluya"

What is Alleluya then?

Is it Hip hip hooray !" Are the angels singing - hip hip hooray to God?

Every time when God creates a galaxy, do the angels say "hip hip hooray'? How absurd

Whats Alleluya then?

The last syllable "YA" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Arabic and Hebrew meaning "OH!" In other words YA = OH {the vocative} and YA - {!} - EXCLAMATORY MARK

The semite both Arab and jew , begins with the exclamatory particle or exclamation mark. The westerners in his language ends with exclamations like Stop! Go! etc

Now let 's repeat this word of praise {Tasbih} as an Arab or a jew :

ALLE - LU - YA with be  YA-ALLE-LU beacause as explained above  YA is always at the begining in both Arabic and Hebrew

YA ALLELU would be YA-ALLAHU   Meaning " OH ALLAH" {You are the only being who deserves worship and praise} OH ALLAH !" {You are the only Being who deserves worship and Praise}

Hope u got it now. So whenever who say 'Alleluya" remember you are saying  Oh Allah.

Both of you slipped away this question of mine. I repeat it.

 Do u agree that there were 100s of prophecies  regarding the coming of jesus in old testaments

   I am not an expert on ancient Hebrew or Arabic. But I contribute some notes I took on the word Jah or Yah from Hallelujah.

   The JAH of Hallelujah is associated with the Jehovah or YHWH of the Old Testamet.

   JAH or YAH appears in many theophoric names in the Old Testament which mostly occur in the latter books such as Kings, Chronicles, Isaiah and Jeremiah.

   "My God is Yah"  (AdoniJAH)

   "The Lord is Yah" (BealiAH) 

   "My Lord Yah is good" (Tob-adoniJAH)

   "My king is Yah"  (MalchiJAH)

   "My father is Yah"  (AbiJAH)

   "My brother is Yah" (AjiJAH)

   "My beloved is Yah"  (DodaVAHu)

   "My portion is Yah" (HilkiAH)

   "My festival or feast is Yah"  (HaggiAH)

   "Yah is a refuge"  (MahseiAH)

   "My lamp is Yah" (NeriAH)

   "The thunder of Yah" (RaamiAH)

   "Yah is strong" (HezekiAH)

    "Yah is mighty" (AmaziAH, AzariAH)

    "Yah is exalted"  (AthaliAH)

    "My splendour is Yah" (HodiAH)

    "Yah is loving kindness" (HasadiAH)

    "Yah is wonderful"  (PeliAH)

    "My good(ness) is Yah"  (TobiAH, TobiJAH)

    "Yah is righteousness"  (ZedekiAH)

  These few samples and more should establish that Yah or Jah indicates the God YHWH or Yahweh. Whom some translations hold as Jehovah. At any rate it is the God of the Holy Bible, both OT and NT.

   HalleluJah cetainly is more closely related to JAH and Joshua (Jesus) of Old and New Testaments then it is to the Allah of the Quran.

 am not an expert on ancient Hebrew or Arabic.

Jocko, why don't u try to learn hebrew then. U shall know whats exactly in Bible. These translated ones, have many errors. I can point many.

ANyways u just answer my question posted above

Who is Jehovah then?

HalleluJah cetainly is more closely related to JAH and Joshua (Jesus) of Old and New Testaments then it is to the Allah of the Quran.

How do u say that Hallelujah is related to Jesus. Not at all. Its a hebrew word. You don't excalim halleluja u say Alleluya , right?

Lets learn to "learn" THE FACTS.

   My remarks will be related to the topic -   seekshidayath asks why I don't I learn Hebrew. That's a good idea. 

 However, learning Hebrew is not a requirement that God has established for anyone to experience the Divine Person.

  The obstacle between us and God is not the language of Hebrew. It is to be cleansed of our sins by the blood of Jesus that the Holy God may receive us. And when we call "O Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus cleanse me of every sin with your precious redemption" the blood of Jesus shed on Calvary obliterates the record of our sins before God. 

   Sure it would be good for me to learn Hebrew, Aramiac, Greek. I don't deny that at all. But God did not wait for me to learn these languages before He became rich to me when I called "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus come into my heart Lord Jesus!"

   Moses led a couple million people out of Egypt. Their Hebrew reading and writing skills were probably pretty good. Latter a good number of them wanted to stone Moses and Aaron to death and return the Egypt, to the iron furnace of their slavery.

   Learning to read and write Hebrew is no garuantee that one will not utterly revolt against God in unbelief and rebellion.

    When you call out "O Lord Jesus"  "My God is Yah"  (AdoniJAH) becomes a reality. By calling He will answer. Our callingto Christ and His answering us deep in our spirit cause God to become "my God". He truly becomes the caller's possession.

    Now it is no longer the religion which belongs to the scribe. Now the living God becomes "my God". He becomes out inner posession.

    We can also call "O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah - Jesus! ".  If you call on the Lord Jesus this way for even three minutes with sincerety you will sense both "My Lord Yah is good" (Tob-adoniJAH) and    "My king is Yah"  (MalchiJAH)

   Christ will not only be good to you. He will be your very goodness. To possess Him to have Him is to have God Himself as your goodness. This is why I don't insist people wait until they have mastered ancient Hebrew language to experience the Triune God. He has made Himself available as the air that surrounds us. We only need to open our own hearts and let Him cleanse us of our sins and come into our spirit.

   The caller touches a closeness and intimacy with God when calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!!" for even three to five minutes. She or he can sense:    "My father is Yah"  (AbiJAH) - that God is now the sweet Papa, the loving Daddy, the Abba Father Himself on which the Son of God called. 

  All these wonderful names become realities by calling on the name of Jesus

   "My brother is Yah"  we feel that Christ is out brother,

   "My beloved is Yah"  we sense that the inseperable love of God upon us.

    One might even begin to call out "O Love Jesus. O Divine Love Lord Jesus ! Lord You are the reality of every positive thing in the universe."

    God dispensed into man is so profound that God led mankind up to these experience in a gradual education. All these names of the Old Testament can be our experience by calling on the incarnated, crucified, resurrected, and exalted Godman Who became the life giving Spirit to enter into us by our calling "O Lord Jesus! O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah. Jesus! Lord Jesus!"

   "My portion is Yah"  Christ is the Wonderful portion of God that is our due if we call on His name.

   "My festival or feast is Yah"  Christ is our feast and our holiday. Christ is our festival and our joyful year of jubilee if we call on His name "O Lord Jesus. Lord, Amen, Amen Hallelujah !!"

   When we call "O Lord Jesus" Christ immediately becomes our refuge. And we experience subjectively the reaility of "Yah is a refuge" 

   When we call "O Lord! Amen! Hallelujah Jesus!!"  God Himself becomes the enlightening lamp within us. We will get light on so many areas of our life. Eventually you receive the light on your whole life. You are no more in darkness or emptiness or uneasiness.

   God has made it simple. Christ is resurrected. Christ is living. Christ is callable and is faithful to answer within the heart of the calling one.

   So I encourage you all to try calling on the Lord Jesus. You have done much thinking. Now it is time to do much drinking. That is to lift up the cup of salvation and call upon the name of the Lord (Psalm 116:13).

  The classic Christisn hymn says:

   "O Jesus, Jesus, dearest Lord forgive me if I say,

    for very love your sacred name a thousand times a day."

  "Burn burn O love within my heart, Burn fiercly night and day.

   Until all the drose of earthly love is burned and burned away."

   And another famous hymn wrote:

   "Just to call the name of Jesus is to drink of life indeed"

   I do not remember exactly what Hallelujah means. But the Spirit of God surely knows. For I contact God when I shout Hallelujah, Amen!

  I will have to study this again. But I know that the Holy Spirit responds to my calling Hallelujah.

  You don't excalim halleluja u say Alleluya , right?

  Personally every Christian that I worship with says "Hallelujah"

  I also say Hallelujah. I have seen the alternative spelling. I have no particular opinion about it.

   There are many languages on the earth. God knows that our pronunciations may not be the same.

 Still He has given us a simple way to come to the Lord Jesus by calling on His name.

   Who is Jehovah then?

    Why don't you try calling out desperately to Jehovah asking Him to show you who He is?

    My answer is that Jehovah is Jesus.  Jesus is the Jehovah that you can eat and take into your being. Jesus is Jehovah become edible by receiving Him in His resurrected state.

   "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

   Jehovah wants to get INTO you to give you life and to be life to you.

Yes, i was expecting  this answer from u that Jehovah is Jesus. I am not intrested to know who Jehovah is, but yes, wanted to know what u know of Jehovah. I wanted to bring your attnetion to the fact that its of no use when u meaninglessly utter words. Even if u feel any effect its just psycological effect. Anyways

Is it not astonishing  as it may sound , to an admitted fact  that prior to 16th century , the word "Jehovah" was unheard. Whenever the origin of this word appeared in its true Hebrew form in jewish scriptures [read from right to left as in Arabic} Yot,huh, YHWH , these 4 words were preceded by a substitute word Adonai, to warn the reader that the following word was not to be articulated. They sincerly believe that the awesome name of God shud not be articulated.. Anyways
If Jehovah is the name of God Almighty and if the 27 Books of the New Tetsament were inspired by Him, then it is an anomaly o fthe highest order , that he {Jehovah} signally  failed to have His own Name recorded in "His word" [New Testament} the christian  addition to jewish bible. The  christians claim  taht they have in their  possession  over 24,000 so called - originals of their Holy writ in the Greek language  and yet not a single parchment has jehovah written in it.

Do u know how this term was invented.

A 100 years ago, all of a sudden more than a 100 new cults and denominations of christian mushroomed in USA. The 7th day Adventists , the Chritstians scientists, the menonites, The Jehovah's witnesses and the like. The founder of the last named cult, a ajudge  Rutherford about whom the orthodox christians say that he was no "Judge", This judge was a voracious book-worm and a prolific writer. He stumbled across the word "Jehovah" which tickled him immensly and he made a religion out of it.
What i say is, u don't accept your religion as it is. Try to know the truth. Just use your minds as why does god need to shed blood, when he's the Creator and does n't require we to worship Him. It does n't matter His Majesty that we worship Him or not.
I wished u to learn Hebrew, to know the facts.  As these translations have many errors which lead a person towards wrong faith. For instance, when u learn Hebrew u would have known the meaning of Alleluya - Ya-Allah.
Other part of your posts were meaningless. It had no connection to my question.
Inventions change the concept of religion. To know a true religion is a must for a person to save himselves from Hell. All i want u to is check each step u follow.

Now my next question -

What is YHWH and what is Elohim?
My intention of questioning u is not to learn christianity, but to test how much u know of your religion? Hoping for u to realise and question yourselves within, one day, what u are?

  The  christians claim  taht they have in their  possession  over 24,000 so called - originals of their Holy writ in the Greek language  and yet not a single parchment has jehovah written in it.

    Please be careful to check your facts.

    I have years ago heard the number of 24,000 but it was not in connection to the number of original autograph manuscripts, but ancient copies.

  I wanted to bring your attnetion to the fact that its of no use when u meaninglessly utter words. Even if u feel any effect its just psycological effect.

    Our God is a living God. For you to make a blanket statement that all such speaking to God is meaningless uttering of words might only reflect that God is not real to you.

    Besides "O Lord Jesus" are not meaningless words.  We are confessing that Jesus is the center of our lives. We are confessing that He is on the throne by calling "Lord".

    Since He told us that we should love the Lord our God with our whole mind and whole heart and whole will it is not meaningless in and of itself that calling "O Lord Jesus" focuses our psychology on God.

  You see one half is our calling. The other half is His answering us. Our faith is responded to by His faithfulness. God delights to have fellowship with us in an intimate way.

  Would you tell your spouse that uttering "I love you" is meaningless?  

   Jesus is a living Person who responds to our faith and our love. And when we call "O Lord Jesus" with the sincerity (not mechanically) to touch the Spirit of Chrirst, He is there within us bearing withness:

  1.) "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:6)

         No mocking of any unregenerated person with no experience of the living God can desuade the caller from inner witnessing of the Holy Spirit. He bears witness with the one calling "Lord Jesus" that he is now intimately in union with God.

  http://www.regenerated.net - www.regenerated.net

 2.) " ... in Him also you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession" (Eph. 1:14)

      The elegant arguments of unbelievers in Christ are not as real as the inward sealing of the Holy Spirit. God sets a living "seal" in the heart of the calling one. This seal is a foretaste of more enjoyment to come. This seal is a pledge of a greater inheriting of God to come. He is like an appetizer. He is a inward preview that we are indeed on the right track to call "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus come into me".

 3.)  Those that turn their hearts to call on the Lord Jesus God fills with His Spirit of reality. And the self satisfied who will not call on the Lord Jesus He sends away empty. So spiritual hunger is a pre-requisite to calling on the Lord Jesus to substantiate His living presence.

    "The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty"  (Luke 1:53)

 4.)  We should come to Jesus sick of dead religion and thirsty for the living God. Dead religion has nothing but it forms and rituals to offer. Christ came to give us life, that is the divine life flowing out of our innermost being.

    "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirst, let him come unto Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

    But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed ino Him were about to receive ..." (John 7:37-39a)

    Religion with its dead rituals can cause our inner being to be thirsty for God. More rituals even if they are right, will not quench the spiritual thirst within man.

    But if we come to Christ calling on His name the Spirit of Christ will begin to flow out of our innermost being. He will flow out as rivers of living water. That is many rivers.

 He has a river for our mind to make it clear and bright and full of hope. He has a river for out emotion to turn us from idols and all things that replace God TO the living God as our deepest enjoyment. He has a river for our will to make it no longer stubburn but soft toward God. The Spirit of the resurrected Jesus will flow out of our innermost being quenching our thirst for God, for reality.

   God alone has the authority to establish the way to come to Him. He says that we come to Him under the covering of the redeeming blood of the Son of God.

 He had to be a man in order to die. And He had to be God to make the meaning and effectiveness His death have eternal significance. God has not overlooked man's sins in a sloppy way. He has judged man's sins in Christ.

 From our perspective is may seem like free forgiveness. From the standpoint of God there is no such thing as free forgiveness. Christ bore the penalty for our sins in His body on the cross. This scheme was established by God. It was not the invention of any man or group of men.

   God want you and I to know that we were judged on the cross in Christ. Christ died in our place. Justice was imputed on our behalf in the Son of God. This plan is established by the authority of God. He did not consult with the wise. He did not ask advice from the scholars of the human race. He established His way of salvation based upon His own eternal authority.

    So we can contact God Himself by praying " O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I was judged in You. Lord Jesus justice against my transgressions was imputed upon You on Your cross on my behalf. Lord Jesus cloth me now in Yourself. You are my righteousness before God."

    We must receive Christ and then our HISTORY becomes Jesus Christ. The record of our life becomes Jesus Christ. Our legacy is made Jesus Christ. We are justified as if we had never sinned.

   But that is not all. By calling on the Lord Jesus He Himself comes into our heart to impower us live a God-man life as He lived. His resurrection power invades our soul and uplifts our living.

   So you should try calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus cleanse me now from every sin in your precious blood. O Lord Jesus I receive you as my Lord and my Savior forever. Thankyou Lord Jesus." 

   Praying this way if very effective in saving us out of dead religion with its dead rituals into the living God.

I want the meaning of hebrew word 'Alleluya" and i did present its meaning there. If u think its wrong just prove it with its originality. I don't trust the translations u make in English. Any ways answer my other two questions at the end of previous page.

Jocko. this thread of yours "simple way to experience jesus" will be well fitted at other sites which encourage chirstianity. This is an Islamic site. Being a muslim, Alhamdullilah , its part of my belief that Isa AS was one of the prophets.He was n't crucified. we don't take him as God or there;s no need for us to experience Jesus.

I shall prove 1001 mistakes in Bible. But since the guidelines and most of all Islam , asks me to respect other religions, i refrain myselves.

I paste it again, Pls read it carefully

What is Alleluya then?

 Take your Book of Testament , chapter 19 wherein we are informed that John the disciple of jesus saw a vision in which he heard the angels  in heavens singing Alleluya, Alleluya"

What is Alleluya then?

Is it Hip hip hooray !" Are the angels singing - hip hip hooray to God?

Every time when God creates a galaxy, do the angels say "hip hip hooray'? How absurd

Whats Alleluya then?

The last syllable "YA" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Arabic and Hebrew meaning "OH!" In other words YA = OH {the vocative} and YA - {!} - EXCLAMATORY MARK

The semite both Arab and jew , begins with the exclamatory particle or exclamation mark. The westerners in his language ends with exclamations like Stop! Go! etc

Now let 's repeat this word of praise {Tasbih} as an Arab or a jew :

ALLE - LU - YA with be  YA-ALLE-LU beacause as explained above  YA is always at the begining in both Arabic and Hebrew

YA ALLELU would be YA-ALLAHU   Meaning " OH ALLAH" {You are the only being who deserves worship and praise} OH ALLAH !" {You are the only Being who deserves worship and Praise}

Hope u got it now. So whenever who say 'Alleluya" remember you are saying  Oh Allah.

    If you wish to repeat posts then I suppose I will do a little repeating also.

   Here are a few Hebrew names in which the Jah or Yah of Hallelujah is NOT at the beginning as you state it always must be:

   "My God is Yah"  (AdoniJAH)

   "The Lord is Yah" (BealiAH) 

   "My Lord Yah is good" (Tob-adoniJAH)

   "My king is Yah"  (MalchiJAH)

   "My father is Yah"  (AbiJAH)

   "My brother is Yah" (AjiJAH)

   "My beloved is Yah"  (DodaVAHu)

   "My portion is Yah" (HilkiAH)

   "My festival or feast is Yah"  (HaggiAH)

   "Yah is a refuge"  (MahseiAH)

   "My lamp is Yah" (NeriAH)

   "The thunder of Yah" (RaamiAH)

   "Yah is strong" (HezekiAH)

    "Yah is mighty" (AmaziAH, AzariAH)

    "Yah is exalted"  (AthaliAH)

    "My splendour is Yah" (HodiAH)

    "Yah is loving kindness" (HasadiAH)

    "Yah is wonderful"  (PeliAH)

    "My good(ness) is Yah"  (TobiAH, TobiJAH)

    "Yah is righteousness"  (ZedekiAH)

     But more of interest to me at the moment is the question of where are the Hallelujahs in the New Testament?

     If I am not mistaken all the Hallelujahs in the New Testament are reserved for the last book of the Bible - Revelation. 

     For example in Revelation 19:5-10 we have the high praises of God and the Hallelujahs because of "the marriage of the Lamb".

    "And a voice came out from the throne saying, Praise our God, all His slaves and those who fear Him, the small and the great. (19:5)

    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. (v.6)

    Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (v.7)

   And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteuosnesses of the saints. (v.8)

  And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of teh Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God" (v.9).

  There are a number interesting facts surrounding the Hallelujahs of this chapter.

  1.) In verse 5 it says "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God ...".

     The previous verse 4 informs us that it is God Who sits upon the throne:

     "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God, who sits upon the throne, saying, Amen, Hallelujah!"

   Then we are told that a voice came out of the throne.  This may be the voice of Christ Himself as the Angel of God (7:2;8:3;10:1). As the Son of the Father He is also sent by God as an Angel, a Messenger. Here this may be the God man Christ speaking from the throne of God. For by saying "Praise our God" it proves that the Speaker is one of us.

I believe that this is the God-man Jesus Christ Who is God incarnate as a man. So He sits on  the throne of God and His voice comes out of the throne of God and yet He shares our human nature so He can also say "Praise our God" refering to His Father.

    He is anointed with the oil of exultant joy above His fellows (Hebrews 1:8,9) -

     'But of the Son, "Your throne, O God is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners" '

    This is exactly what we may see in the voice coming out of the throne of God saying "Praise our God, all His slaves".

 Since the Lamb, the Redeemer is God man we men and women can be His partners. Yet as our Head He leads our praises to His Father. The Hallelujahs are led by the God incarnate into a man Jesus Christ.

 2.) The Hallelujahs are related to reighing of God the Almighty - "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns."

        The reigning of God is sitting of the Lamb upon the throne of God. And God is in the Lamb. There are not two thrones. There is only one throne - the throne of God and of the Lamb - "... a river of water of life, bright as crystal , proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Rev. 22:1).

        It is certain that the Lamb stands for the Redeemer Jesus. And it is certain that God the Almighty is in the Lamb and that they sit upon one throne.  How do I know that God is in the Lamb? How do I know that the God man Jesus Christ is a man with God Almighty living in Him? Because of Revelation 21:23:

  "And the city has no need ofthe sun or of the moon that they shold shine in it, for the glory of God illumines it, and its lamp is the Lamb."

   The light of the eternal city is the glory of God. And the lamp from which the light shines out is the Lamb.

   The man Jesus is the Redeeming God man. He is the lamp. And out from Him shines the glory of God to illumine the New Jerusalem. So God is in the Lamb of God. And the Lamb with God Almighty as His Father is seated upon the throne of God and of the Lamb.

   This is the one who leads the Hallellujahs in the New Testament in Revelation 19.

  3.) The marriage of the Lamb is the maturing and arrivals of at least a significant portion of His people to match Him. He has transformed them into His image (2 Cor. 3:17,18) so that their righteous deeds - thier righteousnesses are their wedding garment to enjoy a special marriage dinner with the Redeemer.

      The Hallelujahs therefore are also related to Christ obtaining not only a people positionally justified and forgiven, but transformed in their living and characters to flow out righteous deeds - the righteousnesses of the saints. The Hallelujahs are related to Christ being dispensed INTO man to make man MATCH Christ as His counterpart and Bride.

 4.) The Hallelujahs are also related to the judgment of the Antichrist and his false prophet because the "beast" (Antichrist) and his false prophet amass an army to physically fight against the second coming of Christ. But Christ and His Bride and Wife overcome them:

   "These will make war with the Lamb and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. " (Rev. 17:14)

  The Antichrist is the one who is instead of Christ, a destraction from Christ, and opposed to Christ - against Christ. And the Hallelujahs in chapter 19 are because God has judged all His enemies and those who fight against Christ the Lamb.

  The False Prophet is the untrue  prophet working on behalf of the Antichrist to distract men from Christ the Redeeming Lamb to something else. Both of these are eventually thrown by Christ into the lake of fire to burn forever along with the Devil:

  "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. " (Rev.20:10).

  It is significant to see what and why the Hallelujahs ascend in the New Testament.  They are all solidly related to the Lamb of God the Redeemer. That is the Son of God, Jesus Christ Who died and rose for the justification, regeneration, sanctification, transformation and glorification of fallen sinners.

   Back to simple way to contact Christ - it is good also to shout "Hallelujah, Amen! Lord Jesus You are the Lamb of God. Hallelujah I am redeemed forever in the precious blood of the God-man - the Lamb of God Jesus."

seekshidayath wrote: I want the meaning of hebrew word 'Alleluya" and i did present its meaning there. If u think its wrong just prove it with its originality. I don't trust the translations u make in English.

Strong: Of hebrew origin (imperative of [H1984] and [H3050]); praise ye Jah!, an adoring exclamation.

Thayer Definition: praise ye the Lord, Hallelujah
Part of Speech: interjective imperative
of Hebrew origin from H1984 and H3050

seekshidayath wrote: Any ways answer my other two questions at the end of previous page. "What is YHWH and what is Elohim?"

seekshidayath wrote: Jocko. this thread of yours "simple way to experience jesus" will be well fitted at other sites which encourage chirstianity. This is an Islamic site....

 Seekshidayath, 

I shall prove 1001 mistakes in Bible. But since the guidelines and most of all Islam , asks me to respect other religions, i refrain myselves.

   Friend, I do respect your Islamic faith. There are many rooms in this forums in which many have written extensively on the benefits of the Islamic faith. I do not interfere with those discussions.

    Here though is a place where I can say something on behalf of the faith and experience of Jesus Christ.

    Now for the 1001 "mistakes" of the Bible, you must realize that you do not have great deal of credibility with me on this matter.  For example if the Bible plainly says that Christ died and rose again, and you come along and say that this is one of the "mistakes" of the Bible, don't expect me to trust you on your objectivity.

   To you the resurrection of Christ a "mistake" of the Bible because your Quran teaches something diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches. So there is a real credibility problem with me trusting your so-called Bible "mistakes".

Jocko wrote:      I do not remember exactly what Hallelujah means. But the Spirit of God surely knows. For I contact God when I shout Hallelujah, Amen!   I will have to study this again. But I know that the Holy Spirit responds to my calling Hallelujah.

"But I know that the Holy Spirit responds to my calling Hallelujah"

what is that? , how do you know that the Holy Spirit responds to your calling ?

Jocko wrote:    Seekshidayath,  I shall prove 1001 mistakes in Bible. But since the guidelines and most of all Islam , asks me to respect other religions, i refrain myselves.    Friend, I do respect your Islamic faith. There are many rooms in this forums in which many have written extensively on the benefits of the Islamic faith. I do not interfere with those discussions.     Here though is a place where I can say something on behalf of the faith and experience of Jesus Christ.     Now for the 1001 "mistakes" of the Bible, you must realize that you do not have great deal of credibility with me on this matter.  For example if the Bible plainly says that Christ died and rose again, and you come along and say that this is one of the "mistakes" of the Bible, don't expect me to trust you on your objectivity.    To you the resurrection of Christ a "mistake" of the Bible because your Quran teaches something diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches. So there is a real credibility problem with me trusting your so-called Bible "mistakes".

Have you studied other theological books? yes I know the bible is supposely the word of God but studying and looking into other christian scholarly works also by Popes and the catholic encyclopedia where there is much to learn from, leads to you, otherwise.  

what is that? , how do you know that the Holy Spirit responds to your calling ?

   The experience of Christ is not without a certain amount of internal confirmation. By "internal confirmation" I mean the there are deep inner senses of God which assure us that we are on the right track.

   I do not mean that one should depend on inner senses completely. But there are inner senses of God which confirm us. Here are some passages which show this:

 1.)  "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6)

         By calling Hallelujah Lord Jesus, we can sense an unspeakable inner feeling of "life and peace". Instead of emptiness, uneasiness, darkness, spiritual deadness, there is a sense of the divine life and peace - an inner brightness and well-being and even majesty. Once we experience life and peace we want to often return to that inner sense of joy.

    We are happy because God is happy. When God is happy that happiness is reflected in your own soul.

 2.) "He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:39)

    "Living water"  is the is the phrase Christ used to describe the sense of the Holy Spirit flowing in your innermost being. There is an inner thirst quenching satisfaction and well being. "Living water" was His word picture to discribe the Holy Spirit.

    By calling "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah Lord Jesus. Amen Lord Jesus I receive You. I believe in You." the Holy Spirit will definitely begin to flow out of your innermost being as rivers of living water.

   But sometimes people get born again and it is not until shortly after, like the next day, that they realize that something deep within them has indeed changed for the better. They sense the nearness of God and never before.

 3.) "To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna ..." (Rev. 2:17).

   By calling on the Lord Jesus, and especially by saying "Amen! Amen!" to the word of God, we begin to sense a deep eating of hidden nourishment. This is the Bible calls the hidden manna. Beyond the eyes of the world there is a deep nourishment and feeding which is filling our innermost hunger within.

 4.) "That He would grant you according to the riches of His glory to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man" (Eph. 3:16)

    Not only is the an inward flowing of living water and an inward feeding on hidden manna, there is a sense of being strengthened into a inner chamber where a "Man" is within you. You discover that there is a "kernel" within your being, an inner sphere and realm where a strong Man is. This is "the inner man" and it is a realm of God's glory, God's shinning.  By inner shinning I mean you are illuminated within your heart. Many things about yourself which were previously in darkness are not clear to you. You are being strenghtened and energized into "the inner man."

  5.)  "But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life" (John 4:14)

  Here again Jesus Christ associates the Holy Spirit within a person as a fountain installed deep in their being. This fountain of thirst quenching refreshment gushes up within into a new life for that person. This new life will eventually expand to be eternal life.

  6.)  "And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was opening the Scriptures" (Luke 24:32)

    There is a flowing of the Spirit. And there is a feeding on the Spirit. And there is the burning of the Holy Spirit in the heart. This is inner burning sense of finally touching the real, the true, the genuine, the Reality of God, the Divine life. There is a burning within our heart if we would call "O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah Lord Jesus my Savior, My Lord, My Life, My God, My All, My Lord Jesus!) 

    Our hearts would be burning with the sense of being one spirit with God - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).

 7.) " And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts" ( 2 Peter 1:19)

    When we obey the prophetic word and call on the name of the Lord Jesus it is as if the morning star is rising in our hearts. It is a new day within. It is a dawning of new light in our soul. The word of God is firm without and the Holy Spirit is bright and dawning within.

   Any or all of these kinds of senses may strike a person as she calls in sincereity "O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah! Amen Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus You are my Lord. You are my Savior. I call on you. Hallelujah! Amen Lord Jesus!".

I don't understand  where we are heading,

Right now am in my festive mood, shall participate later.

Jocko wrote:       what is that? , how do you know that the Holy Spirit responds to your calling ?    The experience of Christ is not without a certain amount of internal confirmation. By "internal confirmation" I mean the there are deep inner senses of God which assure us that we are on the right track.    I do not mean that one should depend on inner senses completely. But there are inner senses of God which confirm us. Here are some passages which show this:  1.)  "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6)          By calling Hallelujah Lord Jesus, we can sense an unspeakable inner feeling of "life and peace". Instead of emptiness, uneasiness, darkness, spiritual deadness, there is a sense of the divine life and peace - an inner brightness and well-being and even majesty. Once we experience life and peace we want to often return to that inner sense of joy.     We are happy because God is happy. When God is happy that happiness is reflected in your own soul.  2.) "He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:39)     "Living water"  is the is the phrase Christ used to describe the sense of the Holy Spirit flowing in your innermost being. There is an inner thirst quenching satisfaction and well being. "Living water" was His word picture to discribe the Holy Spirit.     By calling "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah Lord Jesus. Amen Lord Jesus I receive You. I believe in You." the Holy Spirit will definitely begin to flow out of your innermost being as rivers of living water.    But sometimes people get born again and it is not until shortly after, like the next day, that they realize that something deep within them has indeed changed for the better. They sense the nearness of God and never before.  3.) "To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna ..." (Rev. 2:17).    By calling on the Lord Jesus, and especially by saying "Amen! Amen!" to the word of God, we begin to sense a deep eating of hidden nourishment. This is the Bible calls the hidden manna. Beyond the eyes of the world there is a deep nourishment and feeding which is filling our innermost hunger within.  4.) "That He would grant you according to the riches of His glory to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man" (Eph. 3:16)     Not only is the an inward flowing of living water and an inward feeding on hidden manna, there is a sense of being strengthened into a inner chamber where a "Man" is within you. You discover that there is a "kernel" within your being, an inner sphere and realm where a strong Man is. This is "the inner man" and it is a realm of God's glory, God's shinning.  By inner shinning I mean you are illuminated within your heart. Many things about yourself which were previously in darkness are not clear to you. You are being strenghtened and energized into "the inner man."   5.)  "But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life" (John 4:14)   Here again Jesus Christ associates the Holy Spirit within a person as a fountain installed deep in their being. This fountain of thirst quenching refreshment gushes up within into a new life for that person. This new life will eventually expand to be eternal life.   6.)  "And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was opening the Scriptures" (Luke 24:32)     There is a flowing of the Spirit. And there is a feeding on the Spirit. And there is the burning of the Holy Spirit in the heart. This is inner burning sense of finally touching the real, the true, the genuine, the Reality of God, the Divine life. There is a burning within our heart if we would call "O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah Lord Jesus my Savior, My Lord, My Life, My God, My All, My Lord Jesus!)      Our hearts would be burning with the sense of being one spirit with God - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).  7.) " And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts" ( 2 Peter 1:19)     When we obey the prophetic word and call on the name of the Lord Jesus it is as if the morning star is rising in our hearts. It is a new day within. It is a dawning of new light in our soul. The word of God is firm without and the Holy Spirit is bright and dawning within.    Any or all of these kinds of senses may strike a person as she calls in sincereity "O Lord Jesus! Hallelujah! Amen Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus You are my Lord. You are my Savior. I call on you. Hallelujah! Amen Lord Jesus!".

Jocko,

Who did lord Jesus speak of a lot and who did he worship and pray to, with his forehead on the ground?

You know well, being a staunch Jew himself, Jesus prayed only to HaShem, the LORD, your God aka our Allah.

Forget all that and recite "Ya! HaShem! Ya! Allah!" when you sit, stand and lie down. You will suddenly realise you are so close to the LORD almighty God.

Just a suggestion.

BMZ

seekshidayath wrote: I don't understand  where we are heading, Right now am in my festive mood, shall participate later.

We are now heading to Dhikr (Zikr) and will be chanting the name of the Lord Almighty. The idea is to sit down relaxed, concentrate on God and chant God's name and feel how closer we get to God without calling on others.

I am trying to tell Jocko to approach God direct.

BMZ

 BMZ,

=======================================

  Who did lord Jesus speak of a lot and who did he worship and pray to, with his forehead on the ground?

========================================

   There is no question that He absolutely worshipped the Father.

   But His worship was not only praying and kneeling. His living was a continuous worship of the Father - every thought, every intention, every memory, every action, his waking hours, while He slept, His speaking, His refraining from speaking, His looking, His hearing, His imagining, His walking, His sitting, His eating all were His continous worship.

    He lived the Father and the Father lived through Him. The Father divine attributes were expressed within the Son's human virtues.

     Now this is what you must grasp. In His perfect worship of God He says this:

  "As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

 This does not mean to eat the physcial flesh and blood of Jesus. It does mean that we must, now listen ..., WE MUST TAKE THIS RESURRECTED AND LIVING JESUS INTO OUR BEING to live by Him. (Excuse the Emphasis please)

  We are vessels. God in Christ came to be our "FOOD". Such a profound truth had to be symbolically portrayed in many ways. God in Christ as the Holy Spirit must be RECEIVED INTO our being as "FOOD" so to speak.

  Then we are what we eat. We assimilate and digest Christ Himself in His form as "life giving Spirit" and "the bread of life" the "bread of God" and "that bread which came down from heaven".

   Christ must enter into us. Then HE will live again on the earth - but this time HE will live it within many many people who have received Him as "a life giving Spirit" into thier innermost being. 

===========================================

You know well, being a staunch Jew himself, Jesus prayed only to HaShem, the LORD, your God aka our Allah.

==============================================

  The point is that God is pleased alone with His Son. In the Son alone He is well pleased. Only the Son is absolute for the will of God. Only the Son was absolutely pleasing to God.

 He lived the life that was perfect. And as the Perfect One He bore our sins and carried the penalty of divine judgment which was due all of the rest of us. The Father commands that we recognize that the Son alone lived the life and died the death which fulfilled every detail of the will of God.

 So He is raised from the dead to be our Redeemer, Advocate, Helper, and life giving Spirit to empower us from within to live in the realm and sphere of God Himself as He did. In the whole eternity and whole universe God only wants His Son.

 And the only way we can be accepted by God is by the Son covering us with His shed redeeming blood and coming into us with His Spirit to be our eternal life.

================================= 

Forget all that and recite "Ya! HaShem! Ya! Allah!" when you sit, stand and lie down. You will suddenly realise you are so close to the LORD almighty God.

Just a suggestion.

=====================================

        Calling on God the Creator is indeed very good. It is good to recognize that there is one God.

      But we must go on to see what God has done in His operation to dispense Himself into man. This process, this move of God, has involved the Creator and one God to become a Redeemer, live a perfect life, die a redeeming death for us all, resurrect and be exalted to the throne of God, and come into our hearts as a life giving Spirit to regenerate us, justify us. forgive us, reconcile us, spread His sanctifying life and nature into us and build us up into His eternal dwelling place the New Jerusalem.

     I would encourage you to read the Recovery Version of the New TEstament with its study notes and footnotes.

    But is not I encourage you to read three chapters a day of the New Testament and underline all the passages that truly speak to you in a personal way. Pray then about those passages.

JasperStone wrote: BMZ wrote: I am trying to tell Jocko to approach God direct. BMZ And Jocko is trying to tell you the same.

But Jocko thinks that Jesus is the God, which is not right and is not a proven fact or the truth.

BMZ

Jocko in appropriately said:

There is no question that He absolutely worshipped the Father.

   But His worship was not only praying and kneeling

I'm still trying to figure out how God bows to himself or worships himself or experiences himself.

 Israfil,

     You are still trying to figure out some things. I am still unable to explain some things.

      In God there are three _____.  I must leave it blank. I might borrow the word "Persons."  But even to say "three Persons" could lead to logical problems. So I sometimes may say "three Persons" but not press it too far.

      The safer way is for me to say that there are three _____. I do not have in the human language an expression to discribe such a mysterious matter.

      The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are then three _____. But there is one God who is moving to dispense His life into man.

      You don't even fully understand your own being. Why sneer because we Christians say that for over 2,000 years we have not been able to fully discribe or comprehend the Triune God?

      Now I think I may still have more to say about calling on the name of the Lord to experience "the mystery of God, Christ" (Colossians 2:2). 

    There are well over 500 references to calling on the Lord in the Bible. I do not have the exact count before me. But I may be able to obtain it latter.

     There are many many prayers which include calling "O Lord" in the book of Psalms. So we are not talking about something our of thin air. In the 119th Psalm of David see how many "O Lords" you could find. That would be "O Jehovah" in the Recovery Version which I recommend to you all.

  http://www.biblesforamerica.org - www.biblesforamerica.org

     Enosh called on the name of the Lord. Abraham called on the name of Jehovah. Others called out to God. Calling out to God is found many places in the Old Testament. In the New Testament there are also many references to calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was addressed to all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ:

  "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctifed in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place ..." (1 Cor. 1:1).

   In these last days God is recovery the simplicity of touching Christ by calling on His name. I am sharing this simplicty with you that you also can experience that mysterious matter which we cannot completely explain - to receive Christ is to know God.

   But we can partake. We can enjoy. And we can have God dispense His Holy Spirit into out hearts to grow and spread His life in us.

  Correction:

          At http://www.biblesforamerica.org - www.biblesforamerica.org you may only obtain the NT portion of the Recovery Version.

          They could direct you how to get the entire Recovery Version both Old and New Testaments. But if you have any adaquate translation you can see so many "O Lords" in the 199th Psalm. And in the other Psalms as well.

          Buried within the word of God are perhaps a thousand examples of men and women calling on the name of God. Today we can call "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus" and definitely touch God, and know that we have.

    I recommend that some interested people must read this website:

      http://www.callingonthelord.org - www.callingonthelord.org

Israfil wrote: Jocko wrote:    Israfil,      You are still trying to figure out some things. I am still unable to explain some things.       In God there are three _____.  I must leave it blank. I might borrow the word "Persons."  But even to say "three Persons" could lead to logical problems. So I sometimes may say "three Persons" but not press it too far.       The safer way is for me to say that there are three _____. I do not have in the human language an expression to discribe such a mysterious matter.       The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are then three _____. But there is one God who is moving to dispense His life into man.       You don't even fully understand your own being. Why sneer because we Christians say that for over 2,000 years we have not been able to fully discribe or comprehend the Triune God?       Now I think I may still have more to say about calling on the name of the Lord to experience "the mystery of God, Christ" (Colossians 2:2).

You chose the most befitting emoticon, Israfil. I go visit Jocko's post now.

BMZ

Jocko wrote: Why sneer because we Christians say that for over 2,000 years we have not been able to fully discribe or comprehend the Triune God?

I don't think Christians will be able to fully describe and comprehend the so-called "triune" God till Doomsday. 

The reason is that Jesus never spoke a word about this and never taught about a triune God. Add to this, the fact that not a single writer or authors of the gospels mentioned a triune God.

If there were a triune God, Jesus would have explained it and Christians would have been able to say,"Look! Jesus said that God was a trinity, including him."

There is nothing on this issue from God Almighty, the Teacher, his disciples, even from Peter & Paul and immediate followers of Jesus. Trinity is a dogma or a doctrine, thought of by men. That is why it has never been successfully explained and will never be.

BMZ

Jocko, don't you think nearly 2000 years is enough to explain what man has made up to explain ?

Know for me I do believe in the trinity but its obviously not the same thing. FYI I believe in God, Jesus (well there is a notion that he maybe a fable  I know BMZ will get me  ) and the Holy spirit.

Jocko, don't you think nearly 2000 years is enough to explain what man has made up to explain ?

  Angela,

          That is a loaded question like "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

           The innuendo of your question is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not part of the oracles of the Scriptures.  The Father - Son - Holy Spirit have thier origins in the Bible which we Christians take as the word of God.

           Many good things have been written about the nature of God. None of them replaces the experience of God. And none of them are completely able to cause us to fully comprehend the Triune God. But they do put us on the right track.

===========================================    ;      

Know for me I do believe in the trinity but its obviously not the same thing. FYI I believe in God, Jesus (well there is a notion that he maybe a fable  I know BMZ will get me  ) and the Holy spirit.

===========================================

Jocko wrote: Jocko, don't you think nearly 2000 years is enough to explain what man has made up to explain ?   Angela,           That is a loaded question like "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

by the way its Angel

Jocko, yes I know those words are in the bible, BUT the trinity was formed much later by a group of men 2/3 centuries later.

Angel wrote: last 2 post

I know.

BMZ

Angel wrote: Jocko, don't you think nearly 2000 years is enough to explain what man has made up to explain ? Know for me I do believe in the trinity but its obviously not the same thing. FYI I believe in God, Jesus (well there is a notion that he maybe a fable  I know BMZ will get me  ) and the Holy spirit.

I admire Jocko's frankness, Angel. This is the frist time that a Christian guest has acknowledged that trinity has neither been fully explained nor it has been fully understood.

I just hope one day they abolish trinity and at least follow the Unitarians. For 325 years, after Jesus left, there was no trinity. It took another 236 years to establish trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation, all outside the scope of the gospels and Paul's letters.

I got you long time ago.   

BMZ

Angel you believe in the Trinity?

As BMZ pointed out there still has been no adequate explanation even after so many years. I don't understand why Christians say "God is of three persons but I cannot comprehend that." Its self contradictory to claim you cannot comprehend something you just described. If you cannot comprehend say you cannot comprehend God and the trinity is merely a symbolic gesture. But don't make some big explanation simply because the Bible vaguely talks about it. I've refuted the Trinity argument many times and it never gets too old to see some people tap dance their way around an answer.

Anatolian wrote: Yes actually the Bible does mention Muhammed.... Jesuse himself said there will be many who will come in the name of His Father but will teach wrongdoings... Look it up.

 How come I missed your post? Paul and others came after him within the holy lands of Israel.

Muhammad never came in the name of fatherless Jesus' father but came after him in Arabia.

Cheers,

BMZ

JasperStone wrote: BMZ wrote: Jesus never spoke a word about this and never taught about a triune God. Add to this, the fact that not a single writer or authors of the gospels mentioned a triune God. One verse proves both of your claims wrong. Matthew, a gospel author, quoted Jesus Himself saying: Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. -Matt 28:19 BMZ wrote: If there were a triune God, Jesus would have explained it and Christians would have been able to say,"Look! Jesus said that God was a trinity, including him." Look! There it is! Matthew 28:19! Now one verse disproves 3 of your points.

Not so fast, mate.  Matthew 28:19, if you read it very carefully, is in 3rd person and is not the statement or command of Jesus. Had Jesus really said that, if he really had wanted to show trinity, it would have been, "Go and teach all the nations in the name of my father, in my name and in the name of the holy spirit."

Matthew 28:19-20 is disputed. It was not in the original Hebrew gospel of Matthew. Even Christian scholars are debunking it now. It was the work of the trinitarians after 325 AD. They forged it in.

In the original, it was simply "Go and teach them to carry out all the things that I have commanded you forever."

A Scripture has to be consistent in it's message. There should not be conflicting and contradictory messages at all and it must be clear, leaving no doubt.

I would now like to add and say, "Move over, Matthew, Acts 2:38 is here."

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why did Peter forget to say that they were to be baptised in three names?

A question now: Who did Jesus baptise himself, like John the Baptist did? I don't see Jesus baptising anyone in the names of three. Please advise.

Cheers, mate

BMZ

 That verse of Mathews which is doubtful and after thought is very weak in the meaning also, i.e. what Jasper is trying to derive. There may be advice to teach in the three names. But there is no God in that verse and no mention that these are Gods. We all believe there is a god and there was a Jesus and there is a holy spirit. But even then we do not believe that Jesus and holy spirit are gods.

 Please note that there is no menttion of any god in that verse. So forget about that being a proof for the Trinity.

 Jasper dear, the father is the father mentioned by Jesus who created him and whom he used to worship and Jesus told every one to worship. He is the Great God. Admitted.

 But how are you tying up the two others with him?? Holy spirit was the spirit from God with Jesus. That holy spirit has always been with every prophet of God and is not a God. That is an angel. All angels are spirits and they are mentioned in the OT and NT. Now where it is said that the angel is a god.

 Same goes for Jesus. If he is mentioned with the father (God) it does not make him a god. He is also holy prophet. The prophets are mentioned with God at times and people are told to obey the God and the prophet. That does not make the prophet into a god. Do you see that please?? Continue...

JasperStone wrote: minuteman wrote: But there is no God in that verse and no mention that these are Gods. We all believe there is a god and there was a Jesus and there is a holy spirit. But even then we do not believe that Jesus and holy spirit are gods. Minuteman, If this verse does not refer to God, who then is this Father and who is this Holy Spirit? There is a holy spirit out there who is not God? What kind of being is this holy spirit? And how is this spirit holy since the Bible says that only God is holy? You have invented quite a heresy, but I'd like to hear who these are who aren't God.

Sorry for butting in, JasperStone. The Father is just a term for God almighty, used by the Jews and Christians, although it is not used frequently by the Jews.

Who then is this Father and who is this Holy Spirit? Father is an effectionate term and refers to the Lord Almighty and the Holy Spirit means the Lord Almighty's Power or Force. The Holy Spirit is neither a person nor any being. If it really were, the Jews would have caught up with it 3,000+ years ago. have you ever seen Jews talking of the Holy Spirit as a separate being? No, Jasper. There is no such thing as The Holy Spirit acting on it's own as a God. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirits are not Gods.

BMZ

JasperStone wrote: BMZ wrote: Matthew 28:19, if you read it very carefully, is in 3rd person and is not the statement or command of Jesus. Had Jesus really said that, if he really had wanted to show trinity, it would have been, "Go and teach all the nations in the name of my father, in my name and in the name of the holy spirit." Same question to you: Who is this father and who is this holy spirit in whose name Jesus command His disciples to teach? BMZ wrote: Matthew 28:19-20 is disputed. It was not in the original Hebrew gospel of Matthew. Even Christian scholars are debunking it now. It was the work of the trinitarians after 325 AD. They forged it in. In the original, it was simply "Go and teach them to carry out all the things that I have commanded you forever." A Scripture has to be consistent in it's message. There should not be conflicting and contradictory messages at all and it must be clear, leaving no doubt. You love to quote verses to me that seem to fit your agenda then try to discredit the parts that don't suite you. In the process it is you who is tampering with God's word. I clearly gave you a verse that shows the Triune God. There is no strange father out there in whose name the disciples were to teach, and no illusive spirit that is not God yet is holy. It is you who has created some bizarre trinity that no one can understand. The Bible is the word of God and I receive it in its entirety. BMZ wrote: I would now like to add and say, "Move over, Matthew, Acts 2:38 is here." Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why did Peter forget to say that they were to be baptised in three names? Acts 2:38 does not contradict Matthew 28:19. In Matthew it is not three names, but one name. You need to read it more carefully. In Acts the disciples practiced what Jesus commanded in Matthew. That is, Jesus is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. BMZ wrote: A question now: Who did Jesus baptise himself, like John the Baptist did? I don't see Jesus baptising anyone in the names of three. Please advise. Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit and fire (Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16). Which do you want?

Jasper,

I have no agenda. I have always been a student of the subject The Religions of the World, since I was a student in Primary school. I have studied various types of trinities also, which do not convince me at all and I said earlier that the scripture should have a straight forward and consistent message of God throughout, not a confusing and confounding one though. I don't find any consistency in the Christian Bible. You have four men who wrote gospels. Who to trust? Who is the authority?

If something cannot be found in Matthew, we are made to run through Mark, if he doesn't have it, we are quoted something from Luke and if the three do not have anything, we are taken through John, who wrote most of his own thoughts. This is the main problem with the Christian scripture. Paul's were the writings which came first and look at his writings. Do you find any trinity? Matthew and others came long after Paul. Did Paul teach a triune God? I dislike Paul myself but the man never talked of any trinity. You don't even find him explaining father, son and holy ghost as a trinity.

John was very honest in John 17:3 where he maintained a separation clearly between God and the man Jesus. The verses that I quote are from the Christian scripture.

I am just like all other posters and since I have read and studied many scriptures, I am able to point out the discrepencies and question them.

Let us look at the Shema, "Thou shall love your Lord God with all your hearts, all your minds and all your souls.", declared by the Lord Almighty, stressed upon by Moses and other prophets, Jesus and Muhammad.

Was any Holy Spirit and a Son of God ever meant and described here? Wasn't this message powerfully confirmed by Jesus himself?

The Shema destroys all other myths, dogmas and doctrines. There is no other God. There is only one God and God is the only Savior. That is the simple message which has been badly hit by the proponents of trinity, who could not understand the language of Jesus.

My main gripe with post 300+ AD Christian scholarship is that they are the ones who came up with trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation, etc. Anything, that Jesus did not teach, should be rejected for he was the master of the times.

BMZ

Israfil wrote: Angel you believe in the Trinity? As BMZ pointed out there still has been no adequate explanation even after so many years. I don't understand why Christians say "God is of three persons but I cannot comprehend that." Its self contradictory to claim you cannot comprehend something you just described. If you cannot comprehend say you cannot comprehend God and the trinity is merely a symbolic gesture. But don't make some big explanation simply because the Bible vaguely talks about it. I've refuted the Trinity argument many times and it never gets too old to see some people tap dance their way around an answer.

I think you missed understood me   I said after I said I believe in trinity but "its obviously not the same thing."

You know that i have discuss much about it too as well what it is for me.

I also posed this question to Jocko: Jocko, don't you think nearly 2000 years is enough to explain what man has made up to explain ?

 Am returning to my old post, bit different from the track of previous discussions i n just previous pages.

I remember , having asked about Elohim and YHWH.
And one the members did mention about "Tetragammation". I ask him , whats Tetragamamation"?
Don'y say " Y H W H". I know you are Jehovah's witness.
I want to know the meaning of the jaw breaker word 'Tetragammation".
Anyways, i shall not wait  for the answers as i know your answers.
Tetra in Greek means "Four" and gammation means LETTERS. It simply means a four word letter.

Can u read into YHWH the word Jehovah. -- No !
Right, we ought to add vowels to these four consonents to produce the sound.Originally , both Hebrew and Arabic were written without vowel signs. The native of each  language was able  to read it even without vowels. Not so the outsider, for whose benefit  the vowels were invented.

The "j' sickness
Let us ass the vowels as the "Witness"  suggests YHWH becomes YeHoWaH. Juggle as u like but u can never materialise  Jehovah ! "J" is the popular pronunciation from the  16th century. The exact sound  of the four letters  YHWH is known neither to the jews nor to the gentiles. yet he is ramming JEHOVAH down everyones throats. The European christians have developed a fondness {sickness} for the letter "J". They Add J's where there are no Jays  Like

Yael     to          Joel
Yehuda   to     &nbs p;    Juda
Yeheshua   to         &nbs p; Joshua
Yusuf     to       Joseph
Yunus    to       Jonah
Yesus     to     ;      Jesus
Yehowa       to       Jehovah

There is no end to the westerner's infatuation for the letters "J".  The letters Y H W H occur  in the Hebrew {jewish} Scriptures  6823 times, boasts the jehovah's witness. and it occurs in combination with the word "Elohim" 156 times in booklet called Genesis alone. This combination  YHWH/ELOHIM  has been  consistently translated in the English Bible as 'Lord God"  "Lord God' adinfinitum.

Now lets look at the origin
What is YHWH and what is ELOHIM? Since the jews did not articulate the word YHWH for centuries ans since even the Chief Rabbis would  not allow the ineffable to be heard, they have forfeited the right t oclaim dogmatically how the word is to be sounded. We have  to seek  the aid of the Arab to revive Hebrew, a language which had once dies out. In every linguistic difficulty recourse has to be made to Arabic, a sister langauge  which has remained alive and viable. Racially and linguistically the Arabs and the Jews have a common origin, going back to Abraham AS.

Note the startling resemblance between two languages, very often the same sounding words carry identical meaning in both.

HEBREW                ARABIC          ENGLISH

Elah         &n bsp;           Ilah        &n bsp;        God
Ikhud         & nbsp;         Ahud         &n bsp;     one
Yaum         &n bsp;       Yaum         &n bsp;    day
Shaloam          ;      salaam               peace
Yahuwa                 Ya Huwa          Oh he

YHWH  or Yehova or Yahuwa    all mean the very same meaning "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning  Oh! And   "Huwa "   or "Hu" means He , again in both Hebrew and Arabic together they mean "Oh He! "  So instead of YHEH    ELOHIM, We now have  Oh He! ELOHIM.

The sufffix "IM" of the word "ELOHIM" is a plural of respect in Hebrew.

[Remember that in Arabic and Hebrew there are two types of plurals. One of numbers and the other of honour as in Royal proclamations. Since the plural od honour is uncommon in the langauge of the European , he has confused these plurals to connote a plurality in the "godhead" hence his justification for his Doctrine of  the Holy Trinity - the Father, Son and Holy Ghost}

Hence ELOHIM -------- ELOH - IM
Now u have an exercise. U have two  words here. YA-HUWA    ELOH-IM.
Now don't read  the plurals of the two words i.e YA  and IM.  We read the remaining as HUWA ELOH. or Huwa Elah.
EL - in hebrew means God. Therefore "Huwa el Elah" or HUWA L'LAH  which id identical to th e Quranic expression  - Huwwal lahu hu { meaning - He is Allah } of the verse ' QUL HUWAL LAHU AHAD'  SAY HE IS ALLAH HE IS ONE.

The above exercise proves that EI, Elah and Elohim are not  three distinctly different words. They all represent single Arabic word Allah. If u wish to view it in an English Bible  edited by Rev. C.I Scofield D.D, with his Bible commentary . This Doctor of Divinity is well respected among the bible Scholars of the christian world. He is backed in his "NEW AND IMPROVED EDITION" of his translation by a galaxy of eight oter D.Ds

Rev. Henry G Weston  D.D LL.D President Crozer Theological Seminary
Rev. W.G Moorehead  D.D President XENIA. Theological seminary.
Rev. James M.Gray  D.D President Moody Bible institute
Rev. Elomore Harrris D.D President Toronto Bible institute
Rev. William J.Erdman D.D  Author 'The Gospel of John etc
Rev. Arthur  T. Pierson  D.D Author , editor. teacher etc
Rev. William L. Pettingill D.D Author editor teacher
Arno C. Gaebelein , Author Harmoney of prophetic word etc

They are not listed above to awe you. They have been unaninous in supporting Rev. Scofield in his "New and Improved" commentary

Please note that in there comments No. 1  on page 28 , they concur that - 'Elohim, sometimes EL or  Elah meaning God} and alternatively spelled "Alah" {line three, third word} . All the eight D.D's above cud not have been blind in dittoing the spelling 'Alah " for God. How far  were they from Arabic word Allah.in English dear reader. This is Allah's handiwork, but Devil { We shall give him a capital D , he deserves it} was not slow in making a quick come back  thru his agents. He succeeded in firing all the D.Ds responsible for that debacle and had them replaced by 9 others with more degrees than the previous lot. You will find them in the recent production of "The New Scofield Refernce Bible", U will not be able to lay your hands anymore onthe Bible with Alah in it. The Devil has seen to that.

Do u remember Gospel narrative that when christ was supposed to have been on the cross he cried out with a loud voice

'ELOI, ELOI , LAMA SABACHTHANI"  which is being interpreted   "My God , My God, why hast thou forsaken me? {Mark 15:34}

The above  is a translation from Greek manuscript "ACCORDING TO ST.MARK", Obviously his Hebrew has a Greek accent. Because, his so-called originals were written in Greek. But listen to Mathew, who is supposed  to have written his Gospel originally in Hebrew , which was aimed at Jews. St.Jerome , an early Christian father of 4th and 5th  centuries after christ , testifies as follows

"MATHEW, WHO IS ALSO LEVI, AND WHO FROM A PUBLICAN CAME TO BE AN APOSTLE, FIRST OF ALL THE EVANGELISTS , COMPOSED A GOSPEL OF CHRIST IN JUDEA  IN THE HEBEW LANGUAGE  AND CHARACTERS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE CIRCUMCISION WHO HAD BELEIVED

Naturally, Mathew 's accent would be more Semitic [Hebrew and Arabic} than that of Mark. Mathew records the same scene as Mark 15:34 , but note the variation  of the dialect

'Jesus cried with a loud voice saying "ELLI ELI SABACHTHANI ?'  that is to say My God. My God , why hast thou forsaken me? {Mathew 27:46}

Please memorise the words "Eli Eli , lama Sabachthani?" {Eli - pronounced like  L and I in english}  When u  utter the words "Eli Eli" Do they sound anywhere like "Jehovah , Jehovah" Or does it sound like "Father father " anywhere?
NO ! Right
Can't we hear that the cry is for Allah ?
Eli , Eli - Elah Elah Alah , Allah !"  - Am sure every honest person does agree here.

All the above post is of Ahmed Deedat and i totally agree with his views, so i supported with the verses he cited which deny the cry for Allah.
May Allah swt, make us worthy to be His followers.

minuteman wrote:  Jasper dear, the father is the father mentioned by Jesus who created him and whom he used to worship and Jesus told every one to worship. He is the Great God. Admitted.  But how are you tying up the two others with him?? Holy spirit was the spirit from God with Jesus. That holy spirit has always been with every prophet of God and is not a God. That is an angel. All angels are spirits and they are mentioned in the OT and NT. Now where it is said that the angel is a god.  Same goes for Jesus. If he is mentioned with the father (God) it does not make him a god. He is also holy prophet. The prophets are mentioned with God at times and people are told to obey the God and the prophet. That does not make the prophet into a god. Do you see that please?? Continue...

You said there was not God in this verse and now you are changing your story. You admit that the Father is God. Now the question is whether the other two in this verse are God. I can understand that God and a prophet could appear in the same sentence. However, in this verse the Three are ranked together. Nay, in this verse there are not three; there is only one name. It doesn't say to baptize into the names. It says to baptize into the name. This illustrates the Trinity better than I can. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have one name and are one God.

JasperStone wrote: BMZ wrote: Sorry for butting in, JasperStone. The Father is just a term for God almighty, used by the Jews and Christians, although it is not used frequently by the Jews. BMZ, Minuteman said there there was no reference to God in that verse. If you say the Father is God, then you are saying there is God in this verse. That's not what he said and that's why I asked.

It is oaky, Jasper. I will leave the two of you in peace, for a while.

BMZ

I have no agenda. I have always been a student of the subject The Religions of the World, since I was a student in Primary school. I have studied various types of trinities also, which do not convince me at all and I said earlier that the scripture should have a straight forward and consistent message of God throughout, not a confusing and confounding one though. I don't find any consistency in the Christian Bible. You have four men who wrote gospels. Who to trust? Who is the authority?

If something cannot be found in Matthew, we are made to run through Mark, if he doesn't have it, we are quoted something from Luke and if the three do not have anything, we are taken through John, who wrote most of his own thoughts. This is the main problem with the Christian scripture. Paul's were the writings which came first and look at his writings. Do you find any trinity? Matthew and others came long after Paul. Did Paul teach a triune God? I dislike Paul myself but the man never talked of any trinity. You don't even find him explaining father, son and holy ghost as a trinity.

...

My main gripe with post 300+ AD Christian scholarship is that they are the ones who came up with trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation, etc. Anything, that Jesus did not teach, should be rejected for he was the master of the times.

You do have an agenda to refute the Bible and the Trinity revealed in it. This is very clear. Your criticisms of the multiple writers of the Bible assume that it is the work of man. If the Bible were the work of man, we'd probably need an underlying authority. Since the Bible is God's word, He is the authority and He can use as many men as He wants. You don't see consistency because you lack revelation. God does grant revelation to those who humble themselves before Him in His word. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding."

The Trinity is implied in the Old Testament, but it is not so clear without the perspective of the New Testament. I just showed you where Jesus revealed the Trinity for the first time. Deny it all you like; it is very clear. Also, most and probably all of the New Testament writers speak very much of the Trinity. The Trinity is not a concept added later as you suggest. Here is a verse from Paul:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 13:14

I can predict that you'll try to say that only the middle one is God. Now the Bible would be inconsistent if it tried to rank three disparate beings in such a way. No, that cannot be. It wouldn't work to say, "give everyone my love and blessings from my neighbor's dog." Rather, the love of God is the source of the grace of Christ.

God loved the world and sent His only Begotten Son, and the Son came "full of grace." When God is in heaven, He loves us. When He comes to us, He comes as the Son. When His love comes to us, it comes as grace. God's grace is God's love coming to us. When the Son reaches us, He is the Spirit. The fellowship of the Spirit is the realization of the grace of Christ which has its source in the love of God. This is the Trinity.

John was very honest in John 17:3 where he maintained a separation clearly between God and the man Jesus. The verses that I quote are from the Christian scripture. 

 Dear Jasper, please understand that we do not deny the God in those lines of bible. What I meant was about the other two elements. I did not mean to deny the God in those lines altogether. It should have been easy for you to undertand. I again refer you to those lines andtell you that there is a (One Great) God there. But the other two are not gods. Just because they are mentioned near and next to the real God, it does not make them God. Please see what youhave posted now:

 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 13:14

I can predict that you'll try to say that only the middle one is God. Now the Bible would be inconsistent if it tried to rank three disparate beings in such a way. No, that cannot be. 

 Here again three are mentioned together in one line and There is a God in them too. But the other two are not mentioned as God. The God only is mentioned as God, not Jesus and the spirit. You are totally mistaken in your logic. I give you a good example from the Quran of a similar nature:

 It is written in the Quran at various places; "Obey Allah and His messenger.."   Does that make the messenger a god?? He is mentioned along with Allah. Not at all. There can be many more examples like that from the Quran and from bible too. If Jesus is mentioned in your quoted verse 2 Cor 13:14, it does not make Jesus a god. That mention of Jesus was necessary to tell the world that Jesus was from God, not that he was himself the God. The Holy spirit is also from God but holy spirit is not God. We Muslims know about the holy spirit. He is an angel, i.e. a spirit. whose duty is to bring messages to the prophets.

 Holy spirit was with Jesus teaching Jesus and bringing the messages to Jesus from God. That is what we understand. Please no hard feelings.

Ladies & Gentlemen,

All of us have drifted and wandered away from the OP.  Back to OP, please.

The topic is : A simple way to experience Christ.

I just wish to stress that, in my humble view, it is not really that important to experience Moses, Jesus or Muhammad but it would be more rewarding if we try to experience the Lord Almighty, The Creator, who created Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

BMZ

minuteman wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 13:14  It is written in the Quran at various places; "Obey Allah and His messenger.."   Does that make the messenger a god??

Dear Minuteman,

I predicted how you would respond and you still did it. My friend, these are not equivalent statements. The Quran verase you quoted does leave room for Allah and the messenger to be different. However, the threefold blessing of grace, love and fellowship do not make sense coming from disparate beings. You cannot say, peace from me, joy from my dog, and blessings from a bacterium.

minuteman wrote: Please no hard feelings.

OK. Thank you for your tender tone. Did I give you the impression I had hard feelings?

The Father is God:

Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet 1:2)

 
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him. (Eph 1:17)

The Son is God:

 
�Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel� (which is translated, God with us). (Matt 1:23)

 
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God�. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:1, 14)

 
Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], My Lord and my God! (John 20:28)

 
� Christ Jesus, Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped. (Phil 2:5b-6)

 
But of the Son [God says], �Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. (Heb 1:8)

 
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained through His own blood. (Acts 20:28)

 
Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)
 

The Spirit is God:

 
But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to deceive the Holy Spirit�. You have not lied to men but to God. (Acts 5:3-4)
 

The Father is eternal:

 
For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6)
 

The Son is Eternal:

 
But of the Son [God says], �� You are the same, and Your years will not fail.� (Heb 1:8a, 12b)

Being without father, without mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened to the Son of God, abides a priest perpetually. (Heb 7:3)

The Spirit is Eternal:

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:14)

 Sorry Jasper Dear, you are reading too much between the lines. e.g.

 The Son is God:

 �Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel� (which is translated, God with us). (Matt 1:23)

 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God�. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:1, 14)

 Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], My Lord and my God! (John 20:28)

 The above is not understood. Emmanuel means God with us. That is a good news for the family. But it does not make Jesus a god. Please understand. I say to friends "God be with you". So does it make him God?? Not at all. The coming (birth) of Jesus to the family was like the coming of god to them. That is the most permissible interpretation of the verse and word Emmanul.

Next In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, it is not understandable. The word was with god and the word was god. That means the word was not with god. The word was god himself (or itself). I leave alone the word becoming flesh.

First the word became god and then the word became flesh??? What for?? It is quite complicated matter not fit for general consumption of the public.

Next: Only thomas knew that Jesus was a god while all the other public were considering Jesus to be one of the prophets. A prophet can never be a god. The prophets do not associate themselves or any one else with the God.

 If one man has said that Jesus is his lord and he said, "My God" does not make Jesus a god at all.Please understand that. The testimony of just one man is not enough. Thanks for keeping up the effort.

BMZ wrote: Ladies & Gentlemen, All of us have drifted and wandered away from the OP.  Back to OP, please. The topic is : A simple way to experience Christ. I just wish to stress that, in my humble view, it is not really that important to experience Moses, Jesus or Muhammad but it would be more rewarding if we try to experience the Lord Almighty, The Creator, who created Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. BMZ

Its true that we are n't on the topic , but dear moderator, we wish to continue this thread for few more days as am enjoying the discussions betweee u . minuteman and jasperstone. I got to learn a lot. So hope we move on few more pages as these discussions are smoothly moving.

seekshidayath wrote: BMZ wrote: Ladies & Gentlemen, All of us have drifted and wandered away from the OP.  Back to OP, please. The topic is : A simple way to experience Christ. I just wish to stress that, in my humble view, it is not really that important to experience Moses, Jesus or Muhammad but it would be more rewarding if we try to experience the Lord Almighty, The Creator, who created Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. BMZ Its true that we are n't on the topic , but dear moderator, we wish to continue this thread for few more days as am enjoying the discussions betweee u . minuteman and jasperstone. I got to learn a lot. So hope we move on few more pages as these discussions are smoothly moving.

Oaky. My pleasure. Please go ahead.  I have something old to discuss with Jasper, which I will do later. It is about the son's name.

Btw, I never meant to close this topic. I wanted to discuss the three serious and legitimate questions, out forward by Israfil, which have remained unexplainable and unanswered for 2,000 years.

Salaams

BMZ

JasperStone wrote: BMZ wrote: I just wish to stress that, in my humble view, it is not really that important to experience Moses, Jesus or Muhammad but it would be more rewarding if we try to experience the Lord Almighty, The Creator, who created Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Although I admire that you want to experience the Lord Almighty, Jesus said, No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 14:6 (Various translations)

Jasper, look at the various translations and notice the Me and the me. The me with a bold M is irrelevant. Also the way with a bold W, the truth with a bold T and the life with a bold L do not matter as various translations have not stressed on that matter.

In all of the following, one can see clearly that Jesus is claiming to be a man who can guide and lead people to God.

Jesus did not say,"I am the only way....."  He did not say that, because he was talking to and addressing people of his time. A man of God can lead people to God. A God does not have to lead people to another God.  

In all of the following he is asserting his role of an advocate or a guide. In simple words, Jesus is saying,"If you love God, come, I will guide you and take you to God."

Please enjoy reading the following:

6Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. (Amplified Bible)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (NIV)

6"I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father. (CEV)

6 Jesus said to him, �I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (NKJV)

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me. (NCV)

6Jesus said unto him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (21st CKJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. (ASV)

6Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me; (Young's Literal)

6Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me. (Darby Translation)

6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one can go to the Father except by Me. (NLV) 

6 Jesus told him, "I am ^(A) the way, ⁽B) the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Holman CSB)

    The experience of Jesus Christ is the experience of God. But there are obstacles in the way keeping people from experiencing God. There are two main obstacles:

   There is the real record of sins before God commited by people. This real record represents real guilt from transgressions, offenses, and iniquites built up before God. The problem of the barrier of sins keeps man from experiencing God.

   Then there is the problem of spiritual death. Man has an "organ" specifically designed to contact God and substantiate God. But because of the fall of man stemming from Adam that conponent of man's being is in a comatose state. It is deadened and needs to be made alive again.

    Christ solves both of these problems. The guilt of transgressions is not overlooked, it is punished. That's right. Christ solves the problem of our actual real guilt by bearing the judgment of God within Himself in our place.

   The problem of the deadened human spirit is solved also by Christ. He causes the comatose human spirit to be resurrected. This is called regeneration. This is to be reborn deep within in the kernel of one's being.

   When we call on the Lord Jesus, the recocognition of Him as "Lord" is a major step towards having the forgiveness and regeneration of Christ. God is not demanding that you be able explain the nature of God before you are saved. He is not demanding that you master ancient Arabic, ancient Hebrew, and ancient Greek language before you can be born of God. He is not setting before us a requirement that we even understand the Trinity.

   He does demand that we recognize the Lord Jesus. This recognition is not in a vacuum. The Lord Jesus responds immediately to your recognizing Him as Lord. He is eager to receive you. The angels in heaven are eager to rejoice over another sinner being saved.

  When we call "Lord Jesus, O Lord Jesus" we are humbling ourselves under the Headship of the Savior. You may not understand the nature of Christ too clearly. But you believe that He is there and can help you.

 The proud will not call on the Lord Jesus. Actually, their insisting that they only need to contact God is really a form of rebellion and pride.

  Salvation is according to God's way and not ours. For example, if a house is burning down, and God says to go out of the side door to the house, that is God's righteous way. If you attempt to go through the back door or the second story window or even the front door, that is not a God ordained and righteous way for you to escape. His righteous way demands that you take the side door.

 This little illustration is not perfect. But perhaps it is helpful to some. God says, you come to Him through the Lord Jesus. If you attempt to pass through to Him another way, it will not only not work but it can manifest your rebellion.

 God does not demand that you be able to explain the Only Begotten Son. He does command you to believe in the Only Begotten Son and call Him "Lord Jesus."

  Every human being who has ever lived will eventually acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. It is only a question of whether it is voluntary on your part or whether you do so before you perish forever. The sins of the whole world throughout all human history were placed on Christ by the authority of God. God is definite. We will recognize that Jesus His Son is Lord and that for His great love with which He loved us He took the wrath of God upon Himself in place of us all.

  It is an awesome design. Don't think it came out of the imagination of Paul or Luther or Calvin or anyone else. The Scheme was set by the authority of God whether we understand it or we don't. We are commanded to believe and receive the Lord Jesus.