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March May 1st For Immigrant Rights
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Points: 1694 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2006 at 8:16pm
You can't make jobs where none exist. Even when jobs are outsourced to Mexico, the workers are paid  $1-2.00 an hour. The only ones making any money are the companies and the government officials brokering the outsourcing.
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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USA1 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

I think we can agree to disagree. There are definitely two sides to this and notmuch middle ground.

To me, in the middle of Texas where there are many Hispanics, I see people who are just struggling to survive. Their biggest crime is that they want something better. I guess I feel that we all come from the earth and shall return to the the earth, but we never really own the earth. It will be here long after we are gone, until the Day of Judgement. I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next?

As a Muslim we should want for others what we want for ourselves. As a human being, I see the rich and powerful getting more so, and the poor getting the shaft, and I feel compassion. Better to spend billions building people up than to spend them in destruction. Just my opinion...

 

People come to the US to find a "better way of life". Why would they NOT get their green card or apply for citizenship in the first place? Why would anyone risk everything, knowing they ARE breaking the law? Because we don't enforce our boarder and are FOR immigration but, Legal immigration. legal immigration protects those who are here. The benefit outways the illegality. Unless of coarse you are a criminal in the first place.

The biggest crime is that the countries the immigrants leave are countries which may lack in human rights or are ruled by greedy idiots. Mexico is the problem. To think that within our continent, there are still people living in a third world country. Mexico need to find away to keep it's people home. Make jobs in Mexico, make life better. Vicente Fox is taking the easy whay out of this delema. The immigrant put $80 million a year back into the Mexican economy and they didn't have to lift a finger. Just print maps on how to cross the boarder safely.

Vincente Fox needs to go.

 

 
They just don't get it!
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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But according to the law makers it is all or nothing.  And most of them are leaning towards the nothing....  Yes, easier immigration laws would be great, but that isn't going to happen in today's world.

Not once in all of the recent talk has it even been suggested that the immigration laws become easier. The only compromise discussed was the "guest worker" program, which has failed miserably everywhere it has been implemented as it creates a state of apartheid.

It doesn't really matter anyway. The marches were for naught. Nothing will change and the legislation will go through. Illegals will start to be rounded up and deported and more jobs will be outsourced because the cheap labor will no longer be available so the economy will decline even further because there will not be the revenues generated from the businesses that have outsourced and two years from now we'll all be paying $5.00 for a pound of tomatoes.

Doom and gloom, doom and gloom......
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Angela View Drop Down
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Points: 2555 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2006 at 2:25pm

I just think you're comparing apples and oranges.

So you said....

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next?

This is what bothers me.  I'm not saying they cannot come here, just they have to OBEY THE LAW! 

Instead of rewarding the ones who disrespect the laws of the country, you need to be focusing on getting the actual immigration laws changed.  Giving them amnesty is a bandaid on the problem.  It won't solve anything because it will just encourage more of them to come here, hide for a few years till it gets to be such a problem that the government has to chose between deportation and amnesty again.  Its a vicious cycle and its never going to stop unless we A.) Make it easier to come here legally or B.) Get stricter and send every illegal home so they are scared to come here.

I personally want A. for myself and my country.  But a clear message needs sent that coming here illegally is not desireable and they want to go through the proper channels.

You seem to think its all or nothing.  Its not.  There IS a middle ground.  Increased legal immigration with decreased illegal immigration.  It can happen.  Otherwise, it will be anarchy.
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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I think we can agree to disagree. There are definitely two sides to this and notmuch middle ground.

To me, in the middle of Texas where there are many Hispanics, I see people who are just struggling to survive. Their biggest crime is that they want something better. I guess I feel that we all come from the earth and shall return to the the earth, but we never really own the earth. It will be here long after we are gone, until the Day of Judgement. I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next?

As a Muslim we should want for others what we want for ourselves. As a human being, I see the rich and powerful getting more so, and the poor getting the shaft, and I feel compassion. Better to spend billions building people up than to spend them in destruction. Just my opinion...

 
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Angela View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

There are illegal immigrants living in theis country who have been here for many years. They have children that were born here who are citizens. The new laws would force these children to choose between staying here, perhaps in the Foster care system, or being deported with their parents. Or worse, helping their parents and becoming criminals because of this.

I am not saying just let anyone and everyone into the country, but if they are already living here with families, and have no criminal records, other than being an illegal immigrant, then why not allow them citizenship, or at the least Green Card status? If they have been here long enough, they have already done the time.

 

So, where is the cutoff 1 year, 2, 5, 10?  And are we to reward the ones who were smart enough to get and infant involved?  Their crime is twice as shameful because they got their children caught in the middle of their crime.  We don't take children into account when prosecuting assault or drug possession.  The kids are put in foster care and the parents are prosecuted.  Why to these lawbreakers get a free pass?

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Therapeutic Horseback Riding in Apple Valley, California ($150,000);

Therapeutic Horseback Riding is done for mentally handicapped children and children of trauma.  We had this program at the facility where I worked.  This is a HUGE deal for the children it  helps.  I won't consider this one pork.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

That is not giving them their citizenship, just allowing them to come and go legally and pay the taxes that everyone seems to be so worried about.

This country gives away 50,000 Green Cards every year in the Green Card lottery. In 2004 there were 840,000 Worker Visas issued. What's the difference between these programs and granting Green Cards to illegal immigrants already living and working here?

So, 890,000 had to wait to do it legally, but you're going to punish them for their waiting by giving it to 12 million who didn't?  I'll let Jeanine know that her years of waiting and complying with the law are totally not worth you considering.  I'd rather have 2 million legal immigrants a year than 500,000 illegals. 

But, do not reward people who broke the law!  That is the very mentality of disrespect of the law that gave Bush the bright idea to do illegal easedropping. 

I'm not blaming Social Securities failure on the immigrants, but FICA and Medicaid are different than Social Security NUMBERS in relation to benefits, credit and identity.  How many facets of your life require that one number?????  If there is no immigration restriction, then there is no way to control the number of people who are entering the country. 

Another factoid for you.....in the late 1980s we gave amnesty to ever immigrant who could prove they had been here before a certain year.  The following year, illegal immigration skyrocketed and has been going full force ever since.  This is what they were counting on.
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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There are illegal immigrants living in theis country who have been here for many years. They have children that were born here who are citizens. The new laws would force these children to choose between staying here, perhaps in the Foster care system, or being deported with their parents. Or worse, helping their parents and becoming criminals because of this.

I am not saying just let anyone and everyone into the country, but if they are already living here with families, and have no criminal records, other than being an illegal immigrant, then why not allow them citizenship, or at the least Green Card status? If they have been here long enough, they have already done the time.

I paid Social Security my whole working career. I will probably not be able to collect. This isn't because of illegal immigrants, this is because the system was not well thought out and mismanaged by the government. Populations increase and age. Right now we are experiencing the aging of America, where more people are getting older than working to pay in. In 20 years there will be even more people eligible for the benefits, but less people paying in. That's what is causing the collapse of Social Security.

Most of the illegals already here already have housing. Their children are already in schools. There is only a very small percentage who use any type of fraud to gain access to the system. Most of them are afraid to bring attention to themselves.

This is my solution, take away Pork-Barrel spending of my tax dollars:

Last year alone, Congress added an all-time high of 7,803 pork-barrel earmarks worth about $15 billion to this year's 13 appropriations bills.3 Included among these nearly 8,000 earmarks were novel proposals to extend federal responsibility to such projects as:

  • A tattoo removal program in San Luis Obispo County, California ($50,000);
  • The Fort Union Trading Post Bike Trail in North Dakota ($500,000);
  • The Center on Obesity at West Virginia University ($2 million); and
  • An effort to combat "goth culture" in Blue Springs, Missouri ($270,000).4

Therapeutic Horseback Riding in Apple Valley, California ($150,000);

  • The recovery of Preble's Meadow Jumping Mouse ($500,000); and
  • Washington State's dolphin replacement (replace them with what?) project ($4 million).

There was a huge ground swell of public sentiment from the people of Missouri for a million-dollar program to see whether public transit buses and trains could run on soybeans;

  • Texans really did want $300,000 to pull the weeds out of the Navidad and Lavaca Rivers; and
  • Hawaiians, native Alaskans, and the Bay Staters of Massachusetts wanted $5 million to facilitate cultural exchanges that would allow them to reflect among themselves on the common roots of their 19th century whaling heritage.6   (The Heritage Foundation)

Take away the $15 billion in tax breaks from the oil companies. That's $30 billion right there. Use this money to help the illegal immigrants already living here fill out their paperwork for legal status and permission to work: Green Card.

That is not giving them their citizenship, just allowing them to come and go legally and pay the taxes that everyone seems to be so worried about.

This country gives away 50,000 Green Cards every year in the Green Card lottery. In 2004 there were 840,000 Worker Visas issued. What's the difference between these programs and granting Green Cards to illegal immigrants already living and working here?

 
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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USA1 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Why have citizenship at all then Herjihad and Mishmish?  Why have Social Security Numbers, Taxes (Income Tax was supposed to be repealed after the first world war...hmmm), why have birth certificates and passports? 

Why have citizenship????  I'd rather live in a world I could just freely move to someplace like New Delhi, Kyoto or Amman and live anytime I wanted?  Or get a job in Moscow without filling out all the visa forms?  You know the Slavs pushed out native peoples as they populated Russia?  So they too should have open immigration. 

So, if we just let anyone come in how are we going to tell who's staying and who's visiting?  How do we know who to hire and who to require a worker's priviledge card or worker's visa?  How do we know who's coming and who's going in the realm of criminals and terrorists (note I did not specify what kind of terrorist....for past, present and future situations).

Increase legal immigration, make it easier to become a citizen, provide incentives to those willing to go the legal route.  DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BREAK THE LAW!  I agree with you Iraq is a bad, bad War.  I agree with you that Bush is draining this country dry.  Two wrongs never made a right, only three lefts.

But, to make you feel better Mishmish, I found you this political cartoon by Keefe of the Denver Post.

http://intoon.com/cartoons.cfm?action=browse&startdate=0 4/01/2006&id=16149

Just letting anyone in is not going to work....if you suddenly opened this country up.....you'd have MILLIONS just pouring into this country within weeks.  Anyone who had the money for a plane, train or boat would be here as fast as they could....in places like Flint Michigan, the unemployment rate is already 50%.  Here in Utah, its better, we have more jobs than people.  But, we're a bit rare in the scale of the rest of the country.  Could the US handle another 12 Million after the current 12 are given amnesty?  Could we handle 50 million more within years?  Where is your line?

I'm going to ask you both (Herjihad and Mishmish), you want to give the current twelve amnesty and then what?  What is your solution to the LONG TERM problem?  Housing, education, employment, healthcare.  (Did you know I have to wait 3 months to get into my OB/GYN because there are not enough doctors to patients in some specialities?  What if this becomes regular doctors?) 

Without Social Security numbers, there is no credit reporting and no way to track things like home loans, student loans and car loans.  I know Islam is against Riba, but reality is, the US economy runs on these things.  Without a way to track a persons identity, you can't even have a bank account in this country.  So, you want Amnesty, what's your solution?

Oh, and if they are given Amnesty, I think they should all be paid more than 5.25 an hour.  I want Minumum wage at like $7, so their cheap labor will be non existent because as citizens they'll be able to demand minimum wage or better and turn violators into the Labor Department.  So they will no longer benefit the US as cheap labor (since that's been one of your arguments), and since you can't raise a family on $5.25/hr, I'm assuming they'll need help.

I hear you jumping up and down about fairness, well, be fair to everyone.  You tell me how you want our country to open its borders up to anyone and everyone and still function as a sovereign nation.

 

Angela,

I agree totally with your opinions on this. This is not an immigration issue. Most Americans appreciate and welcome new immigrants into this society. It is the ILLEGAL part of immigration that 82% of Americans want fixed. 80% want illegals out of the country. They can come back but, LEGALLY.
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