I know I'm going to be very unpopular for saying this, but I will not be marching for the undocumented immigrants.

I welcome ALL LEGAL immigrants to the United States, for those law abiding citizens-to-be, I feel they enrich this country.

However, I do not believe in rewarding 12 million lawbreakers.  I don't care if they wanted a better life, if they wanted to be here, they could have gone through the same channels my family took to get here.  They could go through the same painstaking process that many immigrants from all over the world went through to get here. 

The Law is the Law. 

I was going to sponsor a friends fiancee to come here from Morocco.  I'm not anti immigration.  I am opposed to people coming here without following proper channels, breaking laws and flaunting the fact.  And I'm very upset that the Latino community things they have special rights when there are thousands of Asians, Europeans, Middle Easterners and such waiting in line to get permission to come.  They don't have the luxury of walking across the desert to get their citizenship in some amnesty deal.

I'm sorry if this offends.  But, when your factory starts paying $3 dollars less an hour because they can higher an illegal cheaper than the hardworking citizen.  You lose most of your sympathy.

Angela, I can totally understand where you're coming from.  BUT, it's hypocritical for the US government to call anyone illegal in the United States of America.   Only the aboriginal Americans should have this right.  This is a clasic case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Salam

Bismillah,

ISA the march helps the effort to give immunity to immigrants living in America.  As a voting American citizen with the attitude of the earthling that I am, I would vote for decriminalizing immigration by increasing the numbers expansively for the people who seek to come here.  I also believe in health care scaled to the income of people and would apply it to these people as well.

Assalamu alaikum,

I support the boycot. But it doesn't mean I want to heart the american economy  but just to show we are exist, we are not only a burden, but big or little we do have contribution to the american economy. I'll stay home, work remotely, at least I don't spend a few gallon on gasoline.

I'm sorry but the day I see hundreds of thousands of illegal mexicans protesting in thier own country about the conditions thier government won't do anything about is the day I care what ILLEGAL immagrants have to say. The way I see is it is if you want to come here then fine, follow the law and wait your turn and I wouldn't have any problems with you. But if you jump a fence to get here and then demand equal rights then you are just wasting your breath.

Sorry but I don't believe any foreigner should think they have the right to tell us what our immigration policy should be. And as for the Indians, they lost the war so get over it.

Hello all,

if I may give another opinion......

I echo the same sentiment that Angela had said which is the understanding of the plight of immigrants who migrate to this country for a better life yet do so in a legal way. I believe that it's understandbale that any human being under the conditions of survival would commit such actions however I do not believe that such actions are justifiable.

The reason being is that it is proven that illegal immigrants economically diminish the American economical syustem. It is true that there are SOMe that contribute to American society, but illegal immigrants generally do not do the following:

1) Pay into Social Security

2) Have health insurance

3) Have car insurance

4) Any education beyond grade school

I used to in the Emergency Room and I cannot tell you how many countless individuals whom we have treated and release who do not have insurance who are also illegal immigrants. By the way who fits the bill if an illegal immigrant is treated? We do. That is why because of uninsured individuals such as these we have had several units at my hospital closed because per month these clinics were losing over $235,000 per month.

Did you guys kjnow that in Mexico it is more difficult than the U.S to become a citizen? did you also know that any foreigner of Mexico cannot legally own property unless he is a citizen and that the government would seize any property built in the country of Mexico if he/she is not a citizen?

Now in comparison to the laws of Mexico America is pretty easy when it comes to the discussion of illegal immigration. In response to Abeer in the arguement that Americans (I assume the Anglo Americans) were illegal immigrants in actuality since before the settlements there were no laws which would constitue any individual that is of non-indegenous personnel an illegal immigrant you cannot say that the early settlers were "illegal" in the sense of the word, although I would agree that they were immigrant.

I also agree that early settlers were theives because they did steal this land from the Native Americans. However using these historical truths does not justify the legalization of 25 million or so immigrants. Ibelieve people who migrate should have a chance at a better life here, however they must do so the right way.

I also believe that an immigrant coming to America  must be an American. They should acclimate to American society. They must learn American history at least some general concepts. They must learn English and do not expect americans to learn their language. To me the latter is my biggest problem but all in all these people can march all they want but it doesn't justifying the criminal act of coming to this country illegally and to ops I totally disagree with your lasting remark of the Native americans because that is definitely insensitive.

Apex wrote: Hello all, if I may give another opinion...... I echo the same sentiment that Angela had said which is the understanding of the plight of immigrants who migrate to this country for a better life yet do so in a legal way. I believe that it's understandbale that any human being under the conditions of survival would commit such actions however I do not believe that such actions are justifiable. The reason being is that it is proven that illegal immigrants economically diminish the American economical syustem. It is true that there are SOMe that contribute to American society, but illegal immigrants generally do not do the following: 1) Pay into Social Security 2) Have health insurance 3) Have car insurance 4) Any education beyond grade school I used to in the Emergency Room and I cannot tell you how many countless individuals whom we have treated and release who do not have insurance who are also illegal immigrants. By the way who fits the bill if an illegal immigrant is treated? We do. That is why because of uninsured individuals such as these we have had several units at my hospital closed because per month these clinics were losing over $235,000 per month. Did you guys kjnow that in Mexico it is more difficult than the U.S to become a citizen? did you also know that any foreigner of Mexico cannot legally own property unless he is a citizen and that the government would seize any property built in the country of Mexico if he/she is not a citizen? Now in comparison to the laws of Mexico America is pretty easy when it comes to the discussion of illegal immigration. In response to Abeer in the arguement that Americans (I assume the Anglo Americans) were illegal immigrants in actuality since before the settlements there were no laws which would constitue any individual that is of non-indegenous personnel an illegal immigrant you cannot say that the early settlers were "illegal" in the sense of the word, although I would agree that they were immigrant. I also agree that early settlers were theives because they did steal this land from the Native Americans. However using these historical truths does not justify the legalization of 25 million or so immigrants. Ibelieve people who migrate should have a chance at a better life here, however they must do so the right way. I also believe that an immigrant coming to America  must be an American. They should acclimate to American society. They must learn American history at least some general concepts. They must learn English and do not expect americans to learn their language. To me the latter is my biggest problem but all in all these people can march all they want but it doesn't justifying the criminal act of coming to this country illegally and to ops I totally disagree with your lasting remark of the Native americans because that is definitely insensitive.

Sorry but facts are sometimes insensitive. Did they not lose the war?

Apex wrote: First off the it was not initally a war....Land was taken from them systematically. yiou must see that historically it was not "fair and square"

Most things don't start off as war but in the end it was war and we won. People always brings it up like we are going to go back in time a few hundred years and change the way things were back then. Different people different times, nothing we can do now to change it so there is really not much use in going over it time and time again. Most Americans understand what happened to the Indians and slaves were bad but what does everyone expect us to do about it today? We gave them some land here and there and for the numbers that are left I guess it's big enough. They have more rights than most Americans yet I know we are still the big bad ugly Americans who care for no one but ourselves.

First off ops your biased and somewhat "prejudice view" of "well we gave them some land" is the type of redneck attitude that has the world disliking us already. I am white and although I am proud of my families history as a product of American society I'm sadden and ashamed at the evolution of our country's history.

Our country ideally was founded on freedom of oppression and freedom of religion at the expense of other people. Those who were survivors of these tramatic events were given basically scraps and still, to this day struggle from the oppression and the systematic annihilation their parents (or forefathers).

But this is another issue which is taken away from the subject at hand here.

Its not about the Native Americas and its not about the African Slaves.  Its about thousands of people who do the right thing and enter legally getting crap for the millions who don't.  Why should my friend Jeanine have to wait 7 years to get her citizenship when she has jumped through all the hoops and gone through all the legal channels to come from Sweden, when some family can just strap their kids to their back, pay some Coyote to bring them here and set up residence.  Then just because the mother hurries up and has a child so they have a citizen in the family, expect not to be deported when they are caught here illegally.  The US is a nation of Immigrants.....but we have to have laws and regulations to control the flow.  I'm not just talking about economy....you  have to think about Crime, Disease and Urban conditions.  In Idaho, they are passing laws to fine companies that hire illegals.  Why because of what Apex said....the local hospitals are getting hit with huge bills that the people just disappear on.  You need a social security number to report to someone's credit and often a false one is given.  Which either A.) Ends up on someone else's credit or B.) Ends up unpaid and no where to turn.  Then you have the identity theft issue.  In order to buy a car, house, get a student loan, or work.  You need a social security number.  So, where do they get them....they buy identities and end up wrecking someone elses credit. 

If you came to this country legally, I have no problem.  Matter of Fact, they should INCREASE the number of immigrants who get citizenship each year and speed up the process for those that come legally.  All others should be sent home and made to reenter legally.  Sorry if this sounds harsh, but they broke the law.  They should be punished for it. 

well the biggest issue I think is that people don't like it, if any group is too 'public'. Too visible. All these 'dark-skinned' people are not who the government wants. If these were white people from Europe no one would be having a problem with them coming.  People are just frightened that they are 'different' than we are.  Not that this is the case with all people. But for many it is.

They come here and do the dirty, and unpleasant work. As I get on the bus at 5am those are the people on the bus. Going to clean offices, homes, and do hard physical labor. Yes they are the group of people who are more likely to come because they can walk here.

You can push one way.. like oh yes, medical goes up, but then they keep food prices lower because they cost less to pay, and smalled businesses can afford costs. You take these people away and you'll pay another way. Your food prices will rise to pay people more wages who are citizens. This is why most economists don't agree with getting rid of them. They do drive a part of the ecomony.

We tend to blame the small person, the 'illegal' uneducated person. Frankly the extreme differences in wealth (corporations) is a greater issue then a few people coming to clean the toilets, be a nanny, or pick food of the vine in horrible conditions.

Assalamu Alaikum:

Illegal immigrants have some impact on medical costs, but even if all illegals went home tomorrow that would still leave millions of American Citizens without insurance who use emergency rooms as their primary care givers, and who cannot pay the bills. Fix the medical system...

Sister Hayfa is right, illegal workers keep other costs down. If companies have to raise their rates to hire Americans to do these same jobs, the companies aren't going to eat the profits, we will. The average Joe Schmoe. 

I am living in the Dallas, TX area with illegals all over the place and I don't see any plagues or crazed bands of Mexicans wreaking havoc and crime in the streets. More often the illegals are victims of crimes because they are afraid to report the crimes to police. It has become a regular industry down here, victimizing illegals, it's pretty much the perfect crime.

I was also an office Manager in the health field for three years here. We didn't have problems with the Latinos paying their bills. They usually paid with cash up front. It was usually the white people who stiffed us or wrote us bad checks. Or who would stand at the window for 30 minutes arguing that thye didn't have a co-pay and they were going to report us, when they knew better and were just trying to get over. In fact, the latinos were especially nice with me because I wore hijab and I think they thought I was a nun....

These people are just trying to survive like the rest of us. They work extremely hard, they spend the money they've earned paying rent and buying food and other goods, so they are paying sales taxes and putting money back into the economy.

There has to be a better soultion than to treat them all as felons. I mean, come on, you can commit murder in this country and get off, but now if you feed an illegal alien you'll go to prison....

It is unfare to bypass those who are in line to become citizens. Many have waited years to do this legally. Everyone should wait their turn with no exceptions.

Now would be a prime opportunity to expel all illegal immigrants. We have them all in a group (rally) now and it would be pretty easy picking to round them all up and send them home.

What will happen next year and the year after that? Why have citizenship at all? Just let everyone in right? If we allow illegals to become citizens today, we will have to continue in the future.

We should stick to our laws and stop the influx of illegals now and that means from EVERY country, not just Mexico.

USA1: When has this country ever been fair? It was only in 1965 that the Voting Rights Act making it a law that all African Americans had the right to vote.

If fairness were a factor, the Indians would be in control and we'd all be "guest workers".

Why not repeal citizenship to anyone who didn't apply legally through INS? Then we'd all be going somewhere else because our ancestors just showed up here and took over. That would be the fair thing to do. Then the indigenous Mexicans could just take back Texas and California and the rest of the land we took from them.

Mishmish wrote: USA1: When has this country ever been fair? It was only in 1965 that the Voting Rights Act making it a law that all African Americans had the right to vote. If fairness were a factor, the Indians would be in control and we'd all be "guest workers". Why not repeal citizenship to anyone who didn't apply legally through INS? Then we'd all be going somewhere else because our ancestors just showed up here and took over. That would be the fair thing to do. Then the indigenous Mexicans could just take back Texas and California and the rest of the land we took from them.

What will it take for you to understand that no one alive took any land from the Indians. Is that your only argument? If you want to keep bringing them up then lets at least acknowledge the fact that they too immigrated from the north before there was a big ocean between North America and Asia. How far do we go back? To me it is completely pointless to bring up the Indians in current immigration debates. It's like saying "I don't know what I'm talking about so I will just throw out some irrelevant comments about how you stole the land from the Inians."  I know we need reform that allows more workers in and I'm all for that but to say these people have the same right to be here as the rest of us is bull. They are illegal, plain and simple.

By the way, go ahead and give them Texas back, it's such a waste anyways and of the all the people I deal with on a daily basis at my job that live in Texas there are only a handful that seem educated so no point in fighting to keep it. I'm sure the educated can all fit on one plane and we can relocate them if they want to.

Well Mishmish that is the problem that pro-immigrants ( as I assume you are) argue. They say "well when has America been fair?" Or my favorite "This country is nothing but immigrants" does not justify the modern issue. You mentioned Illegal immigrants keep cost down. The reason being is because their employers are illegally giving them below federal wages. So yes, not only are they keeping money in their pockets but they are benefiting from their labor by not offering any medical or dental plans so yes we all benefit from their corruption. However I agree that because you're illegal doesn't give you the right.

I think this whole issue of give the Mexicans back the land is full of crap. You act like Mexicans was the ones that built this country? When we are talking about the evolution of America we involve not only Mexicans but the Irish, the Africans the Chinese everyone. I think Pro-Illegal Immigrant arguements are pretty flawed they fail to look at the other side of the table.

Let's look at Mexico:

You cannot own land their unless you're a legal resident of Mexico which let me remind all here which is hard to obtain. If you do own property and are not a legal resident property can be seized at your own expense.

You cannot protest in Mexico if you are not a legal citizen especially argue for legalization or rights with respect of that matter

You cannot obtain proper care in Mexico unless you have Mexican insurance and even if you are uninsured and have no money they will not help you they will bandage you up basically and send you on your marry way

When we argue about civili rights we must argue that such people who are illegal are not citizens nor do they deserve civili rights in the sense they we should offer Americans. How can you all pro-illegal sargue on that basis when Mexico is as unfair (or perhaps more) than the United States? Look at Mexican Laws and let's talk about hypocrisy before you start discvussing the virtues of Immigrants to this country.

The issue is not even about Mexicans althought Mexicans roughly make up 75% of Immigrants. The issue is bout immigrants from any country. However I know good friends of mine who are immigrants who even satte that its not fair for illegals to bypass all others who have waited years to get in this country I mean YEARS! It's a sad tale like Mexico to allow its own citizens to flee for the purpose of a "better life" it shows how their own government doesn't care. I mean Vicente Fox is even supporting this...Basically its saying "Let my people in because I can't take care of them, and oh by the way they deserve rights!" what hypocrisy

You guys are absolutely right. No one in this country deserves any type of human dignity or civil rights except your average white person who can claim citizenship based on their ancestry.

In fact, why don't we just gather up all the brown people or anyone with an accent and make them leave. But let's get them to wash the dishes and do the laundry first.

People in Texas might be uneducated, but at least I can spell Indians. So, if someone in Texas can out spell you, and Texans are uneducated and ignorant, where does that leave you?  Take all the time you need to figure it out....

Mishmish wrote: You guys are absolutely right. No one in this country deserves any type of human dignity or civil rights except your average white person who can claim citizenship based on their ancestry. In fact, why don't we just gather up all the brown people or anyone with an accent and make them leave. But let's get them to wash the dishes and do the laundry first. People in Texas might be uneducated, but at least I can spell Indians. So, if someone in Texas can out spell you, and Texans are uneducated and ignorant, where does that leave you?  Take all the time you need to figure it out....

I had to go back and read what I typed and I noticed that although I spelled it correctly the first two times I forgot to put in a d in the last one. I'm guessing that you are from texas, correct?

I live in Texas, I'm not from anywhere. My dad was in the Army and we traveled everywhere. My mom and dad are both from Kentucky. My mom's grandfather was full blooded Cherokee. He was taken from his family and sent to live in a Catholic boarding school when he was a boy. His family had everything taken from them, including their children.

If you think that no one guilty of taking Indian land is still alive, I assume you haven't heard of the Western Shoshone Distribution Bill signed by G.W. in July of 2004.

Here's an article about it:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5404691 - http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5404691

Mishmish wrote: I live in Texas, I'm not from anywhere. My dad was in the Army and we traveled everywhere. My mom and dad are both from Kentucky. My mom's grandfather was full blooded Cherokee. He was taken from his family and sent to live in a Catholic boarding school when he was a boy. His family had everything taken from them, including their children. If you think that no one guilty of taking Indian land is still alive, I assume you haven't heard of the Western Shoshone Distribution Bill signed by G.W. in July of 2004. Here's an article about it: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5404691 - http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5404691

No I hadn't heard of that before and I will give ya that it isn't right. I am not a fan of Bush and I can see him doing something like this. It's just sad it doesn't get more press time so more people know about it. Although this is bad, it can happen to anyone in the US and does happen to many people. It's called Immiment Domain and I don't agree with it one bit.

Imminent Domain? No, they are renigging on a law set up to protect what little land the Indians had left. Thye are not going to build on this land for the greater good, they want the minerals, etc... and are going to generously pay 15 cents an acre for it.

Yes, I bring up what happened to the Indians in this country because it is still happening. I get tired of seeing people getting messed with over and over.

.

Frankly, I think any immigrant has as much right to come to this country as anyone not of Native American heritage has of being here. We are all intruders.

Mishmish I understand your position but your position is nonetheless an apologetic to illegal immigration. First off, well are all not "invaders" in the sense. Some of our ancestry didn't come from coming to this country to take over. some of our family goes back to the immigration of Catholics in the 30's some go farther back. Also what about the Black Africans? Surely they didn't freely choose to come to this country? Hence their exception to your belief in "all of us being invaders." True my Anglo-Saxon tradition has indeed corrupted  this American history but none of this is no justification for "illegal immigration"

I believe immigrants have a right to a better life like any human being but the act of breaking a law is no justification. Is a bank robber moral because he/she robs a bank just to feed him/herself?

Peace,

We have heard many complains about "outsourcing". Without "their cheap labor" our products wil be out of the competitions, we can not export our products, outsourcing even going crazier.

I didn't say invaders, I said intruders. Big difference.

I agree that African Americans have been mistreated and forced against their will to come here. That is why in my previous posts I mentioned the Voting Rights Act which FINALLY allowed black people to vote, only 40 years ago. Not very long, 40 years....

Look, since the arrival of the first Europeans to this continent there has been exclusionists. Based on religion, ethnicity, race, and now documentation. But the truth is, the land belongs to God and whoever is meant to live here, will live here. I just don't believe that someone whose great-great grandfather came over here on a ship and killed a few Indians to live here has the right to say that anyone else should not have that same right.

So with that said let any immigrants from any country come live here.....BTW such a philsoophy already exist just ask India and China.....By the way, how can immigrants from post Anglo American settlement be considered intruders if their goals (much like the immigrants now) are to have a better life? In your case since historically the early settlers were intruding then its ok for everybody else to intrude since this is apart of history....Honestly that is crappy logic.

I admit what happen to the Native peoples was horrible history however in modern times you have to see the big picture. Funny how you guys mentioned various facts but never addressed my facts about Mexico. Funny, how the Muslim world portrays our country as negative when we give handouts all the time to immigrants. We pay for their healthcare, well, excuse me taxpayers do.

We pay into social security but illegal immigrants don't but apparently according to you MM that is ok since historically we are all invaders. did you know in 2002 from the study of the Census Bureau data thyat households headed by illegal immigrants have used $10 billion dollars more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002?

What you are asking for MM is blanket amnesty which would triple such to approximately over $29 billion. The sad part from this truth is that my kids will not have Social Security. By the time I am of age I will not have social security, let me change that I'd probably get it just before it runs out.

Here is another truth:

"According to the study, the primary reason illegal immigrants create a federal deficit is that low education levels lead to low incomes and low tax payments." See http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_122001401.html - http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_122001401.html

The reason immigrants are so-called paying taxes is because they are using a SSN which is valid however the IRS does not always catch individuals using fraud SSN numbers. Here is another truth:

>>>>This year SSA sent out over 750,000 letters to employers of approximately seven million workers whose names did not match the SSN provided. ^{http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html#2 - 2} Employees who cannot provide a credible reason for the mismatch either voluntarily seek employment elsewhere or are terminated. Unfortunately, the SSA has no legal authority to levy fines and penalties against either employees who fraudulently obtain a SSN or against employers who repeatedly submit large numbers of wage reports with incorrect SSNs. They must rely on the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to do so, and audits have revealed this rarely happens. ^{http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html#3 - 3 <<<<}

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html - http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html

We're not talking history about theft of land from the Native Americans. Please see the article link posted earlier. This is still occuring.

Illegal immigrants cannot get Medicaid, Medicare, or welfare. Legal Immigrants are eligible for some programs, but these have been severely curtailed since the 1996 welfare reform law.

 Our country has spent $278,000,000 on the Iraqi war. We send approximately five billion dollars a year in aid to Israel. The oil companies in this country receive approximately $15 billion in tax breaks. I don't see how amnesty for these people could be anymore of a tax burden than any of the above.

I am an American citizen and I pay taxes. I would like to choose where my tax dollars go, but I don't get to. I would much rather give $15 billion to hard working illegals in order for them to become citizens than to give it to the ultra rich oil companies. Or to Israelis who are an oppressive, illegal, occupying military force. Or to a war based on lies, that I absolutely do not now nor ever agreed with.

You may say this is illogical, but it is my logic.

Well that is the paradox of our society I'll give that to you...But you are wrong...Illegal immigrants do get benefits look at the links that I have used. Again, at the hospital I worked Illegal immigrants not only get Medical care as well as other health benefits they also get educational benefits and not to mention social security. You are basically saying you'd take the lesser evil which can be just as costly as the Iraq war. I say that is CAN be because on a gradual basis our defecit would be greater again look at the website

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_122001401.html - http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_122001401.html

Yes you'd rather be in the hole for illegals rather than the other evils like going to War however if you choose the latter, your kids and their kids will suffer social setbacks due to your favortism of illegal immigrants. Yes that is your logic, perhaps that is the Muslim thought I guess.

This country is built on principles.  Unfortunately the principles are not always 100% followed, but that's no reason to break more.  There is a set of rules for immigrants to obtain equality here, and those rules are for everyone -- including the immigrants -- benefit.  I don't understand why there's even a debate over this.  You break rules, there are consequences . . . and if there weren't, then there's no point in having rules to begin with. 

I welcome immigrants.  But some should not get special treatment over others -- they should all follow the rules.

And you guys need to relax.  This is getting a bit hostile.  .  It's a difference of opinion, which is something everyone is entitled to.

Mishmish had very valid points, and I completely understand and respect her position.  That doesn't mean I agree with it.  No need for hostility, we're all on the same team.

And it's always great to hear everyone's opinion, no? That's why I'm here in the first place. It's how we all learn.

Well, if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat our mistakes. I think using history, ancient, in between, and yesterday's, to learn and make wiser choices is very appropriate.

As for which history you are referring to, I assume you mean my mention of the Native Americans. Once again, I point out that this is not history, the United States government is still taking land from the Native Americans. This is still happening today. The U.S. is trying to claim 90% of the Western Shoshone lands. These lands are rich in minerals and gold deposits and the government is trying to take them and turn them over to gold and energy corporations. The Shoshone Nation has even filed appeals with the United Nations for intervention for this and Human Rights abuses against Native Americans.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1473593/posts - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1473593/posts

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/where_we_work/united_states/news_publications/feature_story.2005-09-21.1887166197 - http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/where_we_work/united_st ates/news_publications/feature_story.2005-09-21.1887166197

As an American and the descendent of a Native American I find this type of conduct reprehensible. But, since the U.S. government does what it chooses without thought or care for anyone, then I think that I should be able to say that a portion of the billions of dollars the government will garner from this theft, and my taxes, should go toward legalizing immigrants.

What confuses me, Sister Mishfish, is why would the government go to such ends for people who broke the law?

Use the money to make it easier for legal immigrants, fine.  But not to do a favor to law-breakers.

Sure they make things easier, sure they are an asset to the country. Why? Because they get paid less than minimum wage to do disgusting jobs -- another law broken. What is the point of a law if there are no reprocussions? Forget reprocussions, you're talking about rewarding them. 

There are rules for a reason, and although we don't agree with all of them, they have kept somewhat of a balance in this country.  Breaking a rule once never happens; once you do this, you distort the balance.  It is not a completely equal country.  There are many instances of prejudice.  But, as a whole, America has come a long way.  Islam is the fastest growing religion here, so insha'Allah, the future will be uphill.

Brother Apex, I meant that these disagreements should be for a learning purpose moreso than to prove a point.  It seemed you were doing the latter, so I tried to lighten it up.  You learned about the current oppression of Native Americans, and Alhamdullilah, so did I.

Interesting point, but since we have an administration in power that does nothing but break the law with absolutely no repercussions, why pick on these people?

I know, two wrongs don't make a right. But it is the height of hypocrisy to say that illegal immigrants are felons for getting paid $3.00 an hour, then turn around and accept bribes from lobbyist or rent out rooms in the White House for overnight stays to constituents who pay you $100,000 under the table. Everytime we pay taxes we are rewarding law breakers because we are paying the salaries of our government.

If these new laws are passed, then if I feed a homeless person who happens to be an illegal, even if I don't know that, I can be charged with a felony. If I see someone having a heart attack in the street and offer them aid, if they are an illegal I can be charged with a felony.

So, whatever you do, check for papers before helping anyone from now on....

I'm not speaking at a personal level, rather, as a person who's trying to understand the reasoning behind why the government is acting the way it is.  If it came down to me, personally, helping one of those people, I wouldn't hesitate.

If the government, in this situation, were the only "victims," I would have gone to march myself.  What about the legal immigrants who waited years to achieve the same goal? Why should these illegal immigrants be given a handout when these other good people had to go through a meticulous process?

And it's not a crime on the immigrant's part that they're being underpaid.  I simply meant that it's another law that gets broken because the first law wasn't followed. It's not the only one either. You mentioned earlier that they're often victims of harassment, which again, don't misunderstand me, is not their fault.  But it's yet another law broken because the first one wasn't followed.  "Lies beget more lies"; similarly, one rule broken leads to a thousand.  They're good people, I'm sure, and they deserve everything any other person would get . . . but not more than that. 

To give them a handout that others weren't entitled to is not justice.

Bismillah,

Did you guys know that illegal immigrants can receive workers' comp benefits too? 

And I'm GLAD of it.  In my religion, Islam, we don't have these borders based on nationality.  We are all equal, Muslims and non-Muslims in piety before our Loving Lord.  He is our judge, and he will Judge against cruelty and torture and exclusion of human rights by one group over another.

My vote goes to the immigrant amnesty law.  Also, my vote goes to changing the foolish, evil laws we have for decent ones that people who love a just and fair Lord can stand up on Judgment Day and smile about.

amanzar wrote: What confuses me, Sister Mishfish, is why would the government go to such ends for people who broke the law?

Mishfish  

Why have citizenship at all then Herjihad and Mishmish?  Why have Social Security Numbers, Taxes (Income Tax was supposed to be repealed after the first world war...hmmm), why have birth certificates and passports? 

Why have citizenship????  I'd rather live in a world I could just freely move to someplace like New Delhi, Kyoto or Amman and live anytime I wanted?  Or get a job in Moscow without filling out all the visa forms?  You know the Slavs pushed out native peoples as they populated Russia?  So they too should have open immigration. 

So, if we just let anyone come in how are we going to tell who's staying and who's visiting?  How do we know who to hire and who to require a worker's priviledge card or worker's visa?  How do we know who's coming and who's going in the realm of criminals and terrorists (note I did not specify what kind of terrorist....for past, present and future situations).

Increase legal immigration, make it easier to become a citizen, provide incentives to those willing to go the legal route.  DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BREAK THE LAW!  I agree with you Iraq is a bad, bad War.  I agree with you that Bush is draining this country dry.  Two wrongs never made a right, only three lefts.

But, to make you feel better Mishmish, I found you this political cartoon by Keefe of the Denver Post.

http://intoon.com/cartoons.cfm?action=browse&startdate=04/01/2006&id=16149 - http://intoon.com/cartoons.cfm?action=browse&startdate=0 4/01/2006&id=16149

Just letting anyone in is not going to work....if you suddenly opened this country up.....you'd have MILLIONS just pouring into this country within weeks.  Anyone who had the money for a plane, train or boat would be here as fast as they could....in places like Flint Michigan, the unemployment rate is already 50%.  Here in Utah, its better, we have more jobs than people.  But, we're a bit rare in the scale of the rest of the country.  Could the US handle another 12 Million after the current 12 are given amnesty?  Could we handle 50 million more within years?  Where is your line?

I'm going to ask you both (Herjihad and Mishmish), you want to give the current twelve amnesty and then what?  What is your solution to the LONG TERM problem?  Housing, education, employment, healthcare.  (Did you know I have to wait 3 months to get into my OB/GYN because there are not enough doctors to patients in some specialities?  What if this becomes regular doctors?) 

Without Social Security numbers, there is no credit reporting and no way to track things like home loans, student loans and car loans.  I know Islam is against Riba, but reality is, the US economy runs on these things.  Without a way to track a persons identity, you can't even have a bank account in this country.  So, you want Amnesty, what's your solution?

Oh, and if they are given Amnesty, I think they should all be paid more than 5.25 an hour.  I want Minumum wage at like $7, so their cheap labor will be non existent because as citizens they'll be able to demand minimum wage or better and turn violators into the Labor Department.  So they will no longer benefit the US as cheap labor (since that's been one of your arguments), and since you can't raise a family on $5.25/hr, I'm assuming they'll need help.

I hear you jumping up and down about fairness, well, be fair to everyone.  You tell me how you want our country to open its borders up to anyone and everyone and still function as a sovereign nation.

Mishmish wrote: Interesting point, but since we have an administration in power that does nothing but break the law with absolutely no repercussions, why pick on these people? I know, two wrongs don't make a right. But it is the height of hypocrisy to say that illegal immigrants are felons for getting paid $3.00 an hour, then turn around and accept bribes from lobbyist or rent out rooms in the White House for overnight stays to constituents who pay you $100,000 under the table. Everytime we pay taxes we are rewarding law breakers because we are paying the salaries of our government. If these new laws are passed, then if I feed a homeless person who happens to be an illegal, even if I don't know that, I can be charged with a felony. If I see someone having a heart attack in the street and offer them aid, if they are an illegal I can be charged with a felony. So, whatever you do, check for papers before helping anyone from now on....

In other words, you feel we should open our country to everyone, regardless? No immigration at all? Let everyone come in. Right? make them all citizens with equal rights?

I am also an American Indian decendant, and I disagree with you.

Wow, Angela.  VERY well said.  You just convinced me 100%.  Mishmish started giving me some doubts. 

None of that crossed my mind.  I'm very economically and politically illiterate, unfortunately.  One of the side effects of being a science nerd. 

Amanzar,

I think America is better with immigration.  I'm not anti immigration.  But there must be rules and limits in everything.  Any Muslim should understand this.  This is not a perfect world.  Everyone wishes it was more perfect.  In a perfect world, the American Indians would have welcomed the persecuted Pilgrims and they would have lived in peace.  But the Pilgrims took advantage of their generosity in their arrogance.  In a perfect world, there would be no slavery, poverty or economic divide.  Millions would not be starving in Africa and thousands would not be dying in wars all over the globe. 

We are a nation founded on immigration.  However, the laws of economics and governmental programs require a citizenship and a limitation on immigration.  I think the current laws are too restrictive, but I will not agree that it should be completely open.  Here in Utah, we have a major problem with crime related to drugs, illegal immigration and fraud.  I had an employee I had to fire, he was an illegal using another woman's social security number to work.  I'm one of the few Human Resources people who does what they are supposed to and runs every number.  His number did not match name, sex or age.  Who was the victim?  Him for being fired from his job?  Perhaps, but what about the woman who's credit might be being hurt because he bought a Social Security Number from a forged documents dealer?  He was a hard working fellow, we told him if he became legal to call us back, we'd rehire him.  But, I wonder what's going to happen to the woman who's SSN he has next time she applies for a car loan or a home loan?

Angela,

Yeah.  I definitely agree with you.  Easier laws, but not no laws. 

Angela wrote: Why have citizenship at all then Herjihad and Mishmish?  Why have Social Security Numbers, Taxes (Income Tax was supposed to be repealed after the first world war...hmmm), why have birth certificates and passports?  Why have citizenship????  I'd rather live in a world I could just freely move to someplace like New Delhi, Kyoto or Amman and live anytime I wanted?  Or get a job in Moscow without filling out all the visa forms?  You know the Slavs pushed out native peoples as they populated Russia?  So they too should have open immigration.  So, if we just let anyone come in how are we going to tell who's staying and who's visiting?  How do we know who to hire and who to require a worker's priviledge card or worker's visa?  How do we know who's coming and who's going in the realm of criminals and terrorists (note I did not specify what kind of terrorist....for past, present and future situations). Increase legal immigration, make it easier to become a citizen, provide incentives to those willing to go the legal route.  DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BREAK THE LAW!  I agree with you Iraq is a bad, bad War.  I agree with you that Bush is draining this country dry.  Two wrongs never made a right, only three lefts. But, to make you feel better Mishmish, I found you this political cartoon by Keefe of the Denver Post. http://intoon.com/cartoons.cfm?action=browse&startdate=04/01/2006&id=16149 - http://intoon.com/cartoons.cfm?action=browse&startdate=0 4/01/2006&id=16149 Just letting anyone in is not going to work....if you suddenly opened this country up.....you'd have MILLIONS just pouring into this country within weeks.  Anyone who had the money for a plane, train or boat would be here as fast as they could....in places like Flint Michigan, the unemployment rate is already 50%.  Here in Utah, its better, we have more jobs than people.  But, we're a bit rare in the scale of the rest of the country.  Could the US handle another 12 Million after the current 12 are given amnesty?  Could we handle 50 million more within years?  Where is your line? I'm going to ask you both (Herjihad and Mishmish), you want to give the current twelve amnesty and then what?  What is your solution to the LONG TERM problem?  Housing, education, employment, healthcare.  (Did you know I have to wait 3 months to get into my OB/GYN because there are not enough doctors to patients in some specialities?  What if this becomes regular doctors?)  Without Social Security numbers, there is no credit reporting and no way to track things like home loans, student loans and car loans.  I know Islam is against Riba, but reality is, the US economy runs on these things.  Without a way to track a persons identity, you can't even have a bank account in this country.  So, you want Amnesty, what's your solution? Oh, and if they are given Amnesty, I think they should all be paid more than 5.25 an hour.  I want Minumum wage at like $7, so their cheap labor will be non existent because as citizens they'll be able to demand minimum wage or better and turn violators into the Labor Department.  So they will no longer benefit the US as cheap labor (since that's been one of your arguments), and since you can't raise a family on $5.25/hr, I'm assuming they'll need help. I hear you jumping up and down about fairness, well, be fair to everyone.  You tell me how you want our country to open its borders up to anyone and everyone and still function as a sovereign nation.

Angela,

I agree totally with your opinions on this. This is not an immigration issue. Most Americans appreciate and welcome new immigrants into this society. It is the ILLEGAL part of immigration that 82% of Americans want fixed. 80% want illegals out of the country. They can come back but, LEGALLY.

There are illegal immigrants living in theis country who have been here for many years. They have children that were born here who are citizens. The new laws would force these children to choose between staying here, perhaps in the Foster care system, or being deported with their parents. Or worse, helping their parents and becoming criminals because of this.

I am not saying just let anyone and everyone into the country, but if they are already living here with families, and have no criminal records, other than being an illegal immigrant, then why not allow them citizenship, or at the least Green Card status? If they have been here long enough, they have already done the time.

I paid Social Security my whole working career. I will probably not be able to collect. This isn't because of illegal immigrants, this is because the system was not well thought out and mismanaged by the government. Populations increase and age. Right now we are experiencing the aging of America, where more people are getting older than working to pay in. In 20 years there will be even more people eligible for the benefits, but less people paying in. That's what is causing the collapse of Social Security.

Most of the illegals already here already have housing. Their children are already in schools. There is only a very small percentage who use any type of fraud to gain access to the system. Most of them are afraid to bring attention to themselves.

This is my solution, take away Pork-Barrel spending of my tax dollars:

Last year alone, Congress added an all-time high of 7,803 pork-barrel earmarks worth about $15 billion to this year's 13 appropriations bills.³ Included among these nearly 8,000 earmarks were novel proposals to extend federal responsibility to such projects as:

• A tattoo removal program in San Luis Obispo County, California ($50,000);
• The Fort Union Trading Post Bike Trail in North Dakota ($500,000);
• The Center on Obesity at West Virginia University ($2 million); and
• An effort to combat "goth culture" in Blue Springs, Missouri ($270,000).⁴

Mishmish wrote: There are illegal immigrants living in theis country who have been here for many years. They have children that were born here who are citizens. The new laws would force these children to choose between staying here, perhaps in the Foster care system, or being deported with their parents. Or worse, helping their parents and becoming criminals because of this. I am not saying just let anyone and everyone into the country, but if they are already living here with families, and have no criminal records, other than being an illegal immigrant, then why not allow them citizenship, or at the least Green Card status? If they have been here long enough, they have already done the time.

So, where is the cutoff 1 year, 2, 5, 10?  And are we to reward the ones who were smart enough to get and infant involved?  Their crime is twice as shameful because they got their children caught in the middle of their crime.  We don't take children into account when prosecuting assault or drug possession.  The kids are put in foster care and the parents are prosecuted.  Why to these lawbreakers get a free pass?

Mishmish wrote: Therapeutic Horseback Riding in Apple Valley, California ($150,000);

Therapeutic Horseback Riding is done for mentally handicapped children and children of trauma.  We had this program at the facility where I worked.  This is a HUGE deal for the children it  helps.  I won't consider this one pork.

Mishmish wrote: That is not giving them their citizenship, just allowing them to come and go legally and pay the taxes that everyone seems to be so worried about. This country gives away 50,000 Green Cards every year in the Green Card lottery. In 2004 there were 840,000 Worker Visas issued. What's the difference between these programs and granting Green Cards to illegal immigrants already living and working here?

So, 890,000 had to wait to do it legally, but you're going to punish them for their waiting by giving it to 12 million who didn't?  I'll let Jeanine know that her years of waiting and complying with the law are totally not worth you considering.  I'd rather have 2 million legal immigrants a year than 500,000 illegals. 

But, do not reward people who broke the law!  That is the very mentality of disrespect of the law that gave Bush the bright idea to do illegal easedropping. 

I'm not blaming Social Securities failure on the immigrants, but FICA and Medicaid are different than Social Security NUMBERS in relation to benefits, credit and identity.  How many facets of your life require that one number?????  If there is no immigration restriction, then there is no way to control the number of people who are entering the country. 

Another factoid for you.....in the late 1980s we gave amnesty to ever immigrant who could prove they had been here before a certain year.  The following year, illegal immigration skyrocketed and has been going full force ever since.  This is what they were counting on.

I think we can agree to disagree. There are definitely two sides to this and notmuch middle ground.

To me, in the middle of Texas where there are many Hispanics, I see people who are just struggling to survive. Their biggest crime is that they want something better. I guess I feel that we all come from the earth and shall return to the the earth, but we never really own the earth. It will be here long after we are gone, until the Day of Judgement. I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next?

As a Muslim we should want for others what we want for ourselves. As a human being, I see the rich and powerful getting more so, and the poor getting the shaft, and I feel compassion. Better to spend billions building people up than to spend them in destruction. Just my opinion...

I just think you're comparing apples and oranges.

So you said....

Mishmish wrote: I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next?

This is what bothers me.  I'm not saying they cannot come here, just they have to OBEY THE LAW! 

Instead of rewarding the ones who disrespect the laws of the country, you need to be focusing on getting the actual immigration laws changed.  Giving them amnesty is a bandaid on the problem.  It won't solve anything because it will just encourage more of them to come here, hide for a few years till it gets to be such a problem that the government has to chose between deportation and amnesty again.  Its a vicious cycle and its never going to stop unless we A.) Make it easier to come here legally or B.) Get stricter and send every illegal home so they are scared to come here.

I personally want A. for myself and my country.  But a clear message needs sent that coming here illegally is not desireable and they want to go through the proper channels.

You seem to think its all or nothing.  Its not.  There IS a middle ground.  Increased legal immigration with decreased illegal immigration.  It can happen.  Otherwise, it will be anarchy.

But according to the law makers it is all or nothing.  And most of them are leaning towards the nothing....  Yes, easier immigration laws would be great, but that isn't going to happen in today's world.

Not once in all of the recent talk has it even been suggested that the immigration laws become easier. The only compromise discussed was the "guest worker" program, which has failed miserably everywhere it has been implemented as it creates a state of apartheid.

It doesn't really matter anyway. The marches were for naught. Nothing will change and the legislation will go through. Illegals will start to be rounded up and deported and more jobs will be outsourced because the cheap labor will no longer be available so the economy will decline even further because there will not be the revenues generated from the businesses that have outsourced and two years from now we'll all be paying $5.00 for a pound of tomatoes.

Doom and gloom, doom and gloom......

Mishmish wrote: I think we can agree to disagree. There are definitely two sides to this and notmuch middle ground. To me, in the middle of Texas where there are many Hispanics, I see people who are just struggling to survive. Their biggest crime is that they want something better. I guess I feel that we all come from the earth and shall return to the the earth, but we never really own the earth. It will be here long after we are gone, until the Day of Judgement. I live on a plot of land in the middle of Texas, but I am only borrowing it for a while. Who am I to say who can or cannot live here next? As a Muslim we should want for others what we want for ourselves. As a human being, I see the rich and powerful getting more so, and the poor getting the shaft, and I feel compassion. Better to spend billions building people up than to spend them in destruction. Just my opinion...

People come to the US to find a "better way of life". Why would they NOT get their green card or apply for citizenship in the first place? Why would anyone risk everything, knowing they ARE breaking the law? Because we don't enforce our boarder and are FOR immigration but, Legal immigration. legal immigration protects those who are here. The benefit outways the illegality. Unless of coarse you are a criminal in the first place.

The biggest crime is that the countries the immigrants leave are countries which may lack in human rights or are ruled by greedy idiots. Mexico is the problem. To think that within our continent, there are still people living in a third world country. Mexico need to find away to keep it's people home. Make jobs in Mexico, make life better. Vicente Fox is taking the easy whay out of this delema. The immigrant put $80 million a year back into the Mexican economy and they didn't have to lift a finger. Just print maps on how to cross the boarder safely.

Vincente Fox needs to go.

Mishmish wrote: You can't make jobs where none exist. Even when jobs are outsourced to Mexico, the workers are paid  $1-2.00 an hour. The only ones making any money are the companies and the government officials brokering the outsourcing.

Gee, I wonder how other countries manage? What makes Mexico so different is that they have a nieghbor who is willing to support illegal income crossing the boarder to the tune of about $80 billion a year. Why would they want to even try to make their own market?

The US needs to work with Mexico to promote jobs that stay in Mexico. You can see the pride the Mexicans have in their country by watching the rallies and all the Mexican flags flying. I would have to think they would be happier if Mexico actually did something to support their own people. If that happened you would have people going back to Mexcio.They come here because Mexico's ecconomy sucks.

Vincente Fox needs to go

Him and a few others... lol

Getting to the US from Mexico is NOT easy. People risk their lives to come here. They die in the deserts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

It seems that there are a couple of issues here: the greedy world of the haves and have nots.. Why are people coming here? Because of lack of opportunity in Mexico as well as social and cultural factors.

People come here from Mexico because they often have limited means to pay for their survival. Having met and know people who may or may not have come here legally I cannot blame them.

I still believe that some of this has to do with how these people look. If they were from France or Great Britain most would not say a peep, after all they are like 'us'.

If you drive in the middle of US you'll see signs like "American owned." This refers to the people not like us who have come here, whether from Mexico, Pakistan, Angola. The 'other' does not look like us. 

Mishmish: the thing is you are speaking from compassion and care. Laws do not speak that way. Laws account for no variability. Just like the "No Child Left Behind Law". It attempts to put everyone into the same boat. Just an observation.  As you mentioned about where the money goes, well it will not spend itself on futile actions trying to enforce these laws. Short of building a wall like Israel is doing,between the US and Mexico nothing will keep people from coming. Then they will use other methods.

I agree there should be fairness in immigration.  But the government limits people from �undesirable� areas such as any Cuban can get into the US, but not a Jamaican or Haitian fleeing trouble / poverty etc.. Who is considered �acceptable� is the question.

Bono of U2 started a clothing line and opened a factory in a 3rd world country where is paying good wages to the people that work there versus the exploitation that others are suffering.  I feel there should be tax and tariff incentives for companies who pay their employees more.  Make it unlawful for companies incorporated in the United States to pay their employees abroad less than the equivalent of minimum wage here.  So if 1 USD = 44.79 INR, then they should not be able to pay less than 235.15 INR per hour to their employees in India....or 57.57 MXN (mexican pesos).    In many of these countries this would be alot of money even if it isn't in the United States.  But, it would cause the cost of living to rise here.  So, if Mishmish, myself and the others living in American can afford huge increases in our cost of living, then so be it. 

Saying that other countries have to improve their way of living is an idealist's model of a solution.  That will hurt the world economy just as much as current illegal immigration is hurting the US economy.  And its nearly impossible to convince other governments to protect their workers like we do ours.  You would have to end incompetence and greed to do that. 

However, it would be worth us, dropping the war in Iraq and instead offering to build up Mexico's infrastructure.  If we do that, they will grow on their own.  But, I personally would put the condition of them cracking down on the Drug Cartels like no other.  Wipe them out, all of them.  You get rid of the drugs.  We'll give you modern highways, airports and ports.  Industry will flock to Mexico then.  Much better money spent than whooping on some sad, sad insurgents in Iraq. 

Hayfa wrote: Vincente Fox needs to go Him and a few others... lol Getting to the US from Mexico is NOT easy. People risk their lives to come here. They die in the deserts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. It seems that there are a couple of issues here: the greedy world of the haves and have nots.. Why are people coming here? Because of lack of opportunity in Mexico as well as social and cultural factors. People come here from Mexico because they often have limited means to pay for their survival. Having met and know people who may or may not have come here legally I cannot blame them. I still believe that some of this has to do with how these people look. If they were from France or Great Britain most would not say a peep, after all they are like 'us'. If you drive in the middle of US you'll see signs like "American owned." This refers to the people not like us who have come here, whether from Mexico, Pakistan, Angola. The 'other' does not look like us.  Mishmish: the thing is you are speaking from compassion and care. Laws do not speak that way. Laws account for no variability. Just like the "No Child Left Behind Law". It attempts to put everyone into the same boat. Just an observation.  As you mentioned about where the money goes, well it will not spend itself on futile actions trying to enforce these laws. Short of building a wall like Israel is doing,between the US and Mexico nothing will keep people from coming. Then they will use other methods. I agree there should be fairness in immigration.  But the government limits people from �undesirable� areas such as any Cuban can get into the US, but not a Jamaican or Haitian fleeing trouble / poverty etc.. Who is considered �acceptable� is the question.

I disagree with the "look like us" comment. I could care less what they look like or where they come from. Just do it legally and I (most) have no issues with it.  This is what this country is.

BTW- I love the Mexcian people and their culture.

I welcome anyone who wants to come here legally with good intensions and enjoy our culture but, without trying to change it to the one you left behind.

Angela wrote: Bono of U2 started a clothing line and opened a factory in a 3rd world country where is paying good wages to the people that work there versus the exploitation that others are suffering.  I feel there should be tax and tariff incentives for companies who pay their employees more.  Make it unlawful for companies incorporated in the United States to pay their employees abroad less than the equivalent of minimum wage here.  So if 1 USD = 44.79 INR, then they should not be able to pay less than 235.15 INR per hour to their employees in India....or 57.57 MXN (mexican pesos).    In many of these countries this would be alot of money even if it isn't in the United States.  But, it would cause the cost of living to rise here.  So, if Mishmish, myself and the others living in American can afford huge increases in our cost of living, then so be it.  Saying that other countries have to improve their way of living is an idealist's model of a solution.  That will hurt the world economy just as much as current illegal immigration is hurting the US economy.  And its nearly impossible to convince other governments to protect their workers like we do ours.  You would have to end incompetence and greed to do that.  However, it would be worth us, dropping the war in Iraq and instead offering to build up Mexico's infrastructure.  If we do that, they will grow on their own.  But, I personally would put the condition of them cracking down on the Drug Cartels like no other.  Wipe them out, all of them.  You get rid of the drugs.  We'll give you modern highways, airports and ports.  Industry will flock to Mexico then.  Much better money spent than whooping on some sad, sad insurgents in Iraq.

Iraq or Iran have absolutly nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue. Why would you even insert that into this conversation?

You must be careful, some of us are patriots.

USA1,

I have an uncle who is going to slowly die from the injuries he suffered in Afganistan.  He has damage to his nervous system and its slowly deteriorating him.  DO NOT TALK TO ME ABOUT PATRIOTISM! 

My brother was in Airbourne attached to a Blackhawk before an accident lead to his being given an HONORABLE discharge. 

I have over 3 dozen relatives who have served in ever war in the past century and I qualify for DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) and guess what.  I don't believe Iraq and Iran have anything to do with our security....just Cowboy Bush getting us into a war before election time so he would be able to stay in office.  People don't like to change generals in the middle of a war.  edit - ever seen the movie Wag The Dog????

Now, lemme tell you how its relevant.  We are spending Billions on a country we invaded.  We are wasting money left and right on shadows and boogey men when our own borders are not secure.  With reformed immigration laws we could prevent the next Muhammed Atta from entering the US, while encouraging more hardworking immigrants like the 3 dozen that work for me to come to this country.

You said we need to improve the economies of other nations (like Mexico) to help prevent illegal immigration.  However, that is an expensive proposition when we are destabilizing entire regions of the world with our politics.

http://www.csmonitor.com/search_content/0121/p01s04-wosc.html -

Mexico Works to Bar Non-Natives From Jobs

If Arnold Schwarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the United States, he couldn't be a governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanueva, firefighter hero of the Sept. 11 attacks, had moved to Tecate instead of New York, he wouldn't have been allowed on the force.

Even as Mexico presses the United States to grant unrestricted citizenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officials at times calling U.S. policies "xenophobic," Mexico places daunting limitations on anyone born outside its territory.

In the United States, only two posts _ the presidency and vice presidency _ are reserved for the native born.

In Mexico, non-natives are banned from those and thousands of other jobs, even if they are legal, naturalized citizens.

Foreign-born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of the congress. They're also banned from state legislatures, the Supreme Court and all governorships. Many states ban foreign-born Mexicans from spots on town councils. And Mexico's Constitution reserves almost all federal posts, and any position in the military and merchant marine, for "native-born Mexicans."

Recently the Mexican government has gone even further. Since at least 2003, it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from such local jobs as firefighters, police and judges.

Mexico's Interior Department which recommended the bans as part of "model" city statutes it distributed to local officials could cite no basis for extending the bans to local posts.

After being contacted by The Associated Press about the issue, officials changed the wording in two statutes to delete the "native-born" requirements, although they said the modifications had nothing to do with AP's inquiries.

"These statutes have been under review for some time, and they have, or are about to be, changed," said an Interior Department official, who was not authorized to be quoted by name.

But because the "model" statues are fill-in-the-blanks guides for framing local legislation, many cities across Mexico have already enacted such bans. They have done so even though foreigners constitute a tiny percentage of the population and pose little threat to Mexico's job market.

The foreign-born make up just 0.5 percent of Mexico's 105 million people, compared with about 13 percent in the United States, which has a total population of 299 million. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3,000 people a year, compared to the U.S. average of almost a half million.

"There is a need for a little more openness, both at the policy level and in business affairs," said David Kim, president of the Mexico-Korea Association, which represents the estimated 20,000 South Koreans in Mexico, many of them naturalized citizens.

"The immigration laws are very difficult ... and they put obstacles in the way that make it more difficult to compete," Kim said, although most foreigners don't come to Mexico seeking government posts.

J. Michael Waller, of the Center for Security Policy in Washington, was more blunt. "If American policy-makers are looking for legal models on which to base new laws restricting immigration and expelling foreign lawbreakers, they have a handy guide: the Mexican constitution," he said in a recent article on immigration.

Some Mexicans agree their country needs to change.

"This country needs to be more open," said Francisco Hidalgo, a 50-year-old video producer. "In part to modernize itself, and in part because of the contribution these (foreign-born) people could make."

Others express a more common view, a distrust of foreigners that academics say is rooted in Mexico's history of foreign invasions and the loss of territory in the 1847-48 Mexican-American War.

Speaking of the hundreds of thousands of Central Americans who enter Mexico each year, chauffeur Arnulfo Hernandez, 57, said: "The ones who want to reach the United States, we should send them up there. But the ones who want to stay here, it's usually for bad reasons, because they want to steal or do drugs."

Some say progress is being made. Mexico's president no longer is required to be at least a second-generation native-born. That law was changed in 1999 to clear the way for candidates who have one foreign-born parent, like President Vicente Fox, whose mother is from Spain.

But the pace of change is slow. The state of Baja California still requires candidates for the state legislature to prove both their parents were native born.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060521/ap/d8ho93700.html - http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060521/ap/d8ho93700.html

(Sorry but this one got me all fired up.....)