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Angel 
Senior Member
Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
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 Posted: 29 June 2008 at 7:17am |
 minuteman wrote:
For the time being I will explain only the one you have mentioned above. Please remember that the coming of our prophet was likened to the coming of the God himself. Even though he was not God at all. But his coming is like the coming of God. In that sense, he can be called the mighty God. More later.... hopefully. |
more later...Good, still confused as why Muhammed would be called God  
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 ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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minuteman
Senior Member
Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:45am |
Angel wrote:
Minuteman, it cannot be Muhammed because in the list of descriptions is "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Muhammed is not God ;-) |
You are right in some way. But it has to be understood by the special way which will be quite applicabe. As I said, I will explain all the points. There are actually seven specialities mentioned in this verse (or five?, I will see). Each one applies to our prophet Muhammad. But it will need explaining.
For the time being I will explain only the one you have mentioned above. Please remember that the coming of our prophet was likened to the coming of the God himself. Even though he was not God at all. But his coming is like the coming of God. In that sense, he can be called the mighty God. More later.... hopefully.
As for the counselor, it is written in the Quran and ordered to our prophet to take opinion of the friends, "Wa Shawirhum fi al Amr", i.e. "Include their opinion in your orders" or take their opinion in all matters. That is called counselling and the prophet practically took opinion of the friends in all important matters.
Edited by minuteman - 28 June 2008 at 9:50am
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Angel
Senior Member
Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 5:59am |
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Minuteman, it cannot be Muhammed because in the list of descriptions is "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Muhammed is not God ;-)
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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robin
Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:10am |
minuteman wrote:
Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:
Isaiah 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Jesus was never called wonderful. He never counselled (took opinion, Mushawarat) He was never mighty God, eternal father (he was not a father as they say he did not marry) He Jesus was not a prince of peace. He could not bring any peace in his own time.
This verse does not apply to Jesus. But checked carefully, it applies to our prophet Muhammad in all respects. I will post the details soon. It was our prophet who was told to take opinion. It is written in the Quran "Their (Muslims) matters are decided by mutual consultation". The prince of peace also applies to our prophet. The religion that he brought is called Peace (Islam).
Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma. |
As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-
Isaiah 9:7
"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."
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robin
Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:06am |
honeto wrote:
Robin,
two wrongs don't make one right? or do they?
First your quote does not answers my quote, it actually makes stronger my point that Bible contradicts, for sure.
Second your quote is a misquote form the Jewish Bible from where it was borrowed by Christians.
Here is your quote:
Isaiah 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Now here is the same verse as it appear in Jewish Bible, remember that where the OT came into the Christian Bible. Note how the words are twisted by Christians to mean completely different notion.
Now lets see this quote from where it was borrowed and altered to fit the Christian agenda, yet it failed by messing up more (here is a rare oppertunity to see me cut and paste):
ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.
5. For a child has been born to us (note the tense used), a son given to us (note the tense used), and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Beside the alteration to its meanings by Christians, I don't see anything that relates this quote to Jesus, as it was (suppose to have been) written way before Christ. Rather it is refers to David (pbuh) as the verse that follows suggests: 6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
And see the tense used in this translation does not reflect future, the Christ as wrongfully suggested.
So there you have it folks, a good try by Robin but sorry a wrong one, again. Like I have said one wrong only leads to more and more wrongs only, unless be bravely admitted as what it is, a wrong.
Hasan
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But the fulfillment does!!
The Bible show you to be wrong:-
Luke 1:30-32
So the angel said to her: "Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; 31 and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David . . .
Thus showing it was and is talking of Jesus and Allah's anointed and appointed King!
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minuteman
Senior Member
Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
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Posted: 27 June 2008 at 9:27pm |
Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:
Isaiah 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Jesus was never called wonderful. He never counselled (took opinion, Mushawarat) He was never mighty God, eternal father (he was not a father as they say he did not marry) He Jesus was not a prince of peace. He could not bring any peace in his own time.
This verse does not apply to Jesus. But checked carefully, it applies to our prophet Muhammad in all respects. I will post the details soon. It was our prophet who was told to take opinion. It is written in the Quran "Their (Muslims) matters are decided by mutual consultation". The prince of peace also applies to our prophet. The religion that he brought is called Peace (Islam).
Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.
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honeto
Senior Member
Male
Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
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Posted: 27 June 2008 at 5:58pm |
Robin,
two wrongs don't make one right? or do they?
First your quote does not answers my quote, it actually makes stronger my point that Bible contradicts, for sure.
Second your quote is a misquote form the Jewish Bible from where it was borrowed by Christians.
Here is your quote:
Isaiah 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Now here is the same verse as it appear in Jewish Bible, remember that where the OT came into the Christian Bible. Note how the words are twisted by Christians to mean completely different notion.
Now lets see this quote from where it was borrowed and altered to fit the Christian agenda, yet it failed by messing up more (here is a rare oppertunity to see me cut and paste):
ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.
5. For a child has been born to us (note the tense used), a son given to us (note the tense used), and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Beside the alteration to its meanings by Christians, I don't see anything that relates this quote to Jesus, as it was (suppose to have been) written way before Christ. Rather it is refers to David (pbuh) as the verse that follows suggests: 6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
And see the tense used in this translation does not reflect future, the Christ as wrongfully suggested.
So there you have it folks, a good try by Robin but sorry a wrong one, again. Like I have said one wrong only leads to more and more wrongs only, unless be bravely admitted as what it is, a wrong.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 27 June 2008 at 6:03pm
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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robin
Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
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Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:53am |
honeto wrote:
Robin,
I know when things are made clear and make sense, one way to deny them is to accuse me of having less knowledge??
Read, it does not say titles. It says HIS NAME , NAME IMMANUAL.
Let me repeat, it does not say his title will be. Read it says his name, Immanual.
Hasan |
Hasan please explain the following about Jesus:-
Isaiah 9:6-7
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.
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