Islam for non-Muslims - PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE

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PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE

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Topic: PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE

Posted By: robin
Subject: PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:50pm

OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

Prophecy then fulfillment

Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah
Matt. 1:2-16
Luke 3:23-33
Heb. 7:14

Note from Moderation: Dumping is not allowed on this forum. If you have specific proof verses that you would like to show and argue for, then please provide them. It is an unreasonable request to either expect someone to check every verse and claim, or to simply accept these "assertions" as fact, hence the act of "dumping" is not permitted. I also noticed that you have failed to reply to those who did take the time to read your list and discuss your contribution. Be warned that this is a discussion forum.

Replies:

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 3:47pm

Amazing list!!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:12am

Salam

Most of the fulfillments of the Bible are given in the Bible itself. So suppose I write a book saying X King will die when he is 42. And in the next page, I write that X king dies at 42. That is not a miracle. Same is the case with the Bible. But supposing that all the prophecies of the Bible are true then giving even 1 unfulfilled prophecy will prove that Bible as a whole is not the word of God. I can give a list of unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible

1- Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says� �God told Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer.� Few Verses later on Genesis, Chapter No.4, Verse No.17, says��Cain built up a city� � unfulfilled prophecy.

2- If you read Jeremiah, Chapter No.36, Verse No.30, it says that��Jehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin� no one will be able to sit on his throne - The throne of David, no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin.� If you read later on, II Kings, Chapter No 24, Verse No 6, it says that� �Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne� - Unfulfilled prophecy.

3- One is sufficient to prove it is not the word of God - I can give plenty. If you read Ezekiel, Chapter No 26, it says that��Nebuchader, he will destroyed Tyre.� We come to know that Alexander the great, was the person who destroyed Tyre - Unfulfilled prophecy.

4- Isaiah, Chapter No. 7, Verse No 14, says, prophesying of��The coming of a person who will be born to a virgin - his name shall be Emmanuel.� They say� the Christians - it refers to Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Born to a virgin - the Hebrew word there is �amla�, which means not �a virgin�- �a young lady.� The word for �virgin� in Hebrew is, �baitula�, which is not there. Even if you agree - we are using concordance - we agree� �Virgin�� Virgin� - No problem. It says� �He will be called Immanuel.� No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel - Unfulfilled prophecy.

I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies - One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong - I have given a few. "

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 1:54am

There is no need to confront robin with anything. Robin has just over done it. If he had remained only about Jesus that would have been good enough. And Muslims know all those things and believe in them too. robin cannot teach anything new to Muslims.

robin has mostly wandered into old testament. We believe there are many prophesies in the old and middle testament (NT). There are many prophesies in the two old testaments that the christians deny and change their meaning. So what use are the prophesies of the two old testaments to the Muslims who got the new and last testament with them i.e. Quran.

Please robin look at he bright side of the things and try to venture honestly into the Last testament too.

Also, chistians are acting against the explicit teachings of Jesus. Jesus had told them not to put new wine in old bottles. But they have got their bible(NT) stuck into an old book (OT). Why? They call their bible new testament. Why. If it is new wine then why it is bound up with the old wine? Why to put it into the old bottle?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 7:06am

Its not in the old bottle but next it, all wineries have new and old bottles next to each other

and besides NT & OT is the bible not bible stuck in an old book

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 6:12pm

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam

I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies - One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong - I have given a few. "

Amazing List !

Gook work brother. May Allah swt guide us all towards right path. Am adding this post of yours to my notes. InshaAllah, shall be of help while discussing with my non-muslim [ christians} around.

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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:25am

Genesis 4

10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Cain went out away from GOD. He was wandering in the sense that he was not with GOD. A person can be sucessful build a city in this world but have lost all in the next world when they are sent away from GOD.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:38am

LOL! if you consider 3 months sitting on the throne!! LOL!! Read more of the same prophecy in Jeremiah 22

Jeremiah 22

30Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:52am

Ezekiel 26

3Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

cause many nations

Immanuel means "GOD with us" Most Chrisitans do in fact consider Jesus as GOD with us. Prophecy fulfilled.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:04pm

believer wrote:

Immanuel means "GOD with us" Most Chrisitans do in fact consider Jesus as GOD with us. Prophecy fulfilled.

The instruction to the lady of Ahaz, was to name the child Immanuel. She was to call him Immanuel. She might have done that. Nobody knows.

But our dear lady Maryam did not name her child Immanuel. Neither did Joseph. And the angel also forgot to tell her the name Immanuel. Instead gave her some other name. Prophecy would have come true only if Jesus had really been named Immanuel but unfortunately this did not come true.

Considering Jesus wrongly "God with us" does not prove that his name was Immanuel. He wasn't called El Immanu.

Cheers

BMZ

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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:16pm

Question: "Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel?"

Answer: In the prophecy of the virgin birth, Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah declared, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel." This prophecy refers to the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:22-23, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'" This does not mean, however, that the Messiah�s name would actually be Immanuel.

There are many names given to Jesus using the phrase �He shall be called,� both in the Old and New Testaments. This was a common way of saying that people would refer to Him in these various ways. Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, �His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace� (Isaiah 9:6). None of these titles was Jesus� actual name, but these were descriptions people would use to refer to Him forever. Luke tells us Jesus �shall be called the Son of the Highest� (Luke 1:32) and �son of God� (1:35) and �the prophet of the Highest� (1:76), but none of these was His name.

In two different places, the prophet Jeremiah says in referring to the coming Messiah, �And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS� (Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16). Now we know that God, the Father, is named Jehovah. Jesus was never actually called Jehovah as though it was His name, but His role was that of bringing the righteousness of Jehovah to those who would believe in Him, exchanging that righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this is one of the many titles or �names� which belong to Him.

In the same way, to say that Jesus would be called "Immanuel" means Jesus is God and that He dwelt among us in His incarnation and that He is always with us. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.

Admin: to reduce the font size, (on edit page) highlight the text and choose the proper size on 'size' dropdown menu

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:17pm

Sorry the font is so big!! Is there a way to make it smaller?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:10am

Wandering means to roam around in the world, not settling down. How can it mean going away from God? furthermore the bible says

Genesis 4:10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer ON THE EARTH."

The phrase ON THE EARTH implies he was supposed to wander or Earth. It is pretty clear. Furthermore

Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says� �God told Cain: you will never be able to settle...."

That also refers to settling on Earth.

LOL! if you consider 3 months sitting on the throne!! LOL!!

The Bible does not say that no one will sit on the throne for more than 3 months. It only says that no one will be able to sit on the throne. 3 months, 5 months, a year, the period does not matter. The fact is, no one was supposed to sit on the throne according to the Bible, and the Jehoiachin's son sat on it, according to the Bible.

3Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

cause many nations

Let me quote Ezekiel 26

7For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

8He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

9And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

10By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

11With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.

12And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

13And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

14And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

God is specifically mentioning Nebuchadrezzar saying that he will pretty much destroy Tyres. Did that realy happen? Has the prophecy been fulfilled?

Bible has many other unfulfilled prophecies. Let me just quote Genesis

people.

Genesis

God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17
God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13
God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18
God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4
God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10
God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2
God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24

Note that these verses are from Genesis only. You can only imagine how many unfulfilled prophecies are there in the Bible.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:25am

robin wrote:

OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

Prophecy then fulfillment

Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah
Matt. 1:2-16
Luke 3:23-33
Heb. 7:14

Sorry do not have the time at the moment!

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 1:17am

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam

I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies - One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong - I have given a few. "

Just to be going on with:-

JEHOIAKIM EXPERIENCED A DISGRACEFUL DEATH AND WAS NOT BURIED IN THE TOMBS OF THE KINGS AT JERUSALEM, NO MORE THAN AN ASS WOULD BE. (JER. 22:18, 19) HIS SON JEHOIACHIN (OR, CONIAH) REIGNED ONLY THREE MONTHS AND 10 DAYS IN JERUSALEM AND THEN SURRENDERED TO THE BABYLONIANS AND WAS DEPORTED TO BABYLON, FROM WHERE HE DID NOT RETURN. (JER. 22:24-30; 37:1) DOWN TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE REBUILT CITY OF JERUSALEM BY THE ROMANS IN 70 C.E., NO DESCENDANT OF JEHOIACHIN, THE SON OF JEHOIAKIM, THE KING OF JUDAH, MOUNTED A ROYAL THRONE IN JERUSALEM. JEREMIAH�S PROPHETIC WORDS, WRITTEN IN HIS UNDERGROUND LOCATION, DID NOT FAIL TO COME TRUE!

According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Babylonian siege of Tyre lasted 13 years. (Josephus, Against Apion, Book I, Chapter 21) History does not record how effective Nebuchadnezzar�s efforts were, although the loss of Tyrian property and lives must have been great. A later prophetic pronouncement through Zechariah indicated that God would destroy the city completely. (Zechariah 9:3, 4) This prophecy was fulfilled nearly 200 years after it was given. By then those living in the nearby island city of Tyre felt secure behind its formidable walls. However, in 332 B.C.E., the forces of Alexander the Great overthrew that island city, using debris from mainland Tyre to build a causeway leading to the island part of Tyre (as Tyre was in two parts, mainland part and island pert). Since then this artificial peninsula has been enlarged by sand deposited there by the water. Moreover, in the present seaport village, fishermen can be seen drying their nets�another fulfillment of prophecy. Certainly, Jehovah�s Word is sure!

Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland half of the city of tyre but never got to the Island part (Alexander did) thus he did not destroy the city!!!!

Prophecy fulfilled

No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel - Unfulfilled prophecy.

MATTHEW 1:18-23

DURING THE TIME HIS MOTHER MARY WAS PROMISED IN MARRIAGE TO JOSEPH, SHE WAS FOUND TO BE PREGNANT BY HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THEY WERE UNITED. ¹⁹ HOWEVER, JOSEPH HER HUSBAND, BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHTEOUS AND DID NOT WANT TO MAKE HER A PUBLIC SPECTACLE, INTENDED TO DIVORCE HER SECRETLY. ²⁰ BUT AFTER HE HAD THOUGHT THESE THINGS OVER, LOOK! JEHOVAH�S ANGEL APPEARED TO HIM IN A DREAM, SAYING: �JOSEPH, SON OF DAVID, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO TAKE MARY YOUR WIFE HOME, FOR THAT WHICH HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN IN HER IS BY HOLY SPIRIT. ²¹ SHE WILL GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND YOU MUST CALL HIS NAME JESUS, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.� ²² ALL THIS ACTUALLY CAME ABOUT FOR THAT TO BE FULFILLED WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY JEHOVAH THROUGH HIS PROPHET, SAYING: ²³ �LOOK! THE VIRGIN WILL BECOME PREGNANT AND WILL GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY WILL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,� WHICH MEANS, WHEN TRANSLATED, �WITH US IS GOD.�

Prophecy fulfilled

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 9:24am

believer wrote:

Question: "Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel?"

Answer: In the prophecy of the virgin birth, Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah declared, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel." This prophecy refers to the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:22-23, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'" This does not mean, however, that the Messiah�s name would actually be Immanuel.

There are many names given to Jesus using the phrase �He shall be called,� both in the Old and New Testaments. This was a common way of saying that people would refer to Him in these various ways. Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, �His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace� (Isaiah 9:6). None of these titles was Jesus� actual name, but these were descriptions people would use to refer to Him forever. Luke tells us Jesus �shall be called the Son of the Highest� (Luke 1:32) and �son of God� (1:35) and �the prophet of the Highest� (1:76), but none of these was His name.

In two different places, the prophet Jeremiah says in referring to the coming Messiah, �And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS� (Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16). Now we know that God, the Father, is named Jehovah. Jesus was never actually called Jehovah as though it was His name, but His role was that of bringing the righteousness of Jehovah to those who would believe in Him, exchanging that righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this is one of the many titles or �names� which belong to Him.

In the same way, to say that Jesus would be called "Immanuel" means Jesus is God and that He dwelt among us in His incarnation and that He is always with us. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.

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Because in Jesus case it is a title showing that God was acting towards the Jews via him (Jesus) as His (God's)agent, much like Moses.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 6:20pm

Robin,

you insist; "This does not mean, however, that the Messiah�s name would actually be Immanuel.

Now if we look at the quote, the words are more clear than that:

It says: "and shall call his name Immanuel."

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 12:22am

honeto wrote:

Robin,

you insist; "This does not mean, however, that the Messiah�s name would actually be Immanuel.

Now if we look at the quote, the words are more clear than that:

It says: "and shall call his name Immanuel."

Hasan

Your lack of Bible knowledge is showing again Hasan!

Jesus Christ in the Bible has about a 120 differing titles:-

The Word

The Lamb

Shilo

Saviour

The Lord

First & Last

Michael

Rabbi

Lord of lords

King of kings

Son of God

Son of Man

Abbadon

Apollyon

Prince of peace

The Twig

The Shepherd

The Loin of the tribe of Judea

The Leader

The Judge

Angel of the abyss

The Seed

Comander etc. etc.

to name but a few!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:20pm

Robin,

I know when things are made clear and make sense, one way to deny them is to accuse me of having less knowledge??

Read, it does not say titles. It says HIS NAME , NAME IMMANUAL.

Let me repeat, it does not say his title will be. Read it says his name, Immanual.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 1:03am

honeto wrote:

Robin,

I know when things are made clear and make sense, one way to deny them is to accuse me of having less knowledge??

Read, it does not say titles. It says HIS NAME , NAME IMMANUAL.

Let me repeat, it does not say his title will be. Read it says his name, Immanual.

Hasan

Face facts Hasan; lack of knowledge leads to misunderstandings for anyone:-

Proverbs 1:5

A wise person will listen and take in more instruction, and a man of understanding is the one who acquires skillful direction,

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 2:33pm

name

[neym] - noun, verb, named, nam�ing, adjective

�noun

1.	a word or a combination of words by which a person, place, or thing, a body or class, or any object of thought is designated, called, or known.

2.	mere designation, as distinguished from fact: He was a king in name only.

3.	an appellation, title, or epithet, applied descriptively, in honor, abuse, etc.

4.	a reputation of a particular kind given by common opinion: to protect one's good name.

5.	a distinguished, famous, or great reputation; fame: to make a name for oneself.

6.	a widely known or famous person; celebrity: She's a name in show business.

7.	an unpleasant or derogatory appellation or expression: Don't call your brother names! Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

8.	a personal or family name as exercising influence or bringing distinction: With that name they can get a loan at any bank in town.

9.	a body of persons grouped under one name, as a family or clan.

10.	the verbal or other symbolic representation of a thing, event, property, relation, or concept.

11.	(initial capital letter) a symbol or vehicle of divinity: to take the Name in vain; the power of the Name.

�verb (used with object)

12.	to give a name to: to name a baby.

13.	to accuse: He was named as the thief.

14.	to call by an epithet: They named her speedy.

15.	to identify, specify, or mention by name: Three persons were named in the report.

16.	to designate for some duty or office; nominate or appoint: I have named you for the position.

17.	to specify; suggest: Name a price.

18.	to give the name of: Can you name the capital of Ohio?

19.	to speak of.

20.	British. (in the House of Commons) to cite (a member) for contempt.

�adjective

21.	famous; widely known: a name author.

22.	designed for or carrying a name.

23.	giving its name or title to a collection or anthology containing it: the name piece.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:53am

honeto wrote:

Robin,

I know when things are made clear and make sense, one way to deny them is to accuse me of having less knowledge??

Read, it does not say titles. It says HIS NAME , NAME IMMANUAL.

Let me repeat, it does not say his title will be. Read it says his name, Immanual.

Hasan

Hasan please explain the following about Jesus:-

Isaiah 9:6-7

For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. ⁷ To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 5:58pm

Robin,

two wrongs don't make one right? or do they?

First your quote does not answers my quote, it actually makes stronger my point that Bible contradicts, for sure.

Second your quote is a misquote form the Jewish Bible from where it was borrowed by Christians.

Here is your quote:

Isaiah 9:6

Now here is the same verse as it appear in Jewish Bible, remember that where the OT came into the Christian Bible. Note how the words are twisted by Christians to mean completely different notion.

Now lets see this quote from where it was borrowed and altered to fit the Christian agenda, yet it failed by messing up more (here is a rare oppertunity to see me cut and paste):

ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.

5. For a child has been born to us (note the tense used), a son given to us (note the tense used), and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Beside the alteration to its meanings by Christians, I don't see anything that relates this quote to Jesus, as it was (suppose to have been) written way before Christ. Rather it is refers to David (pbuh) as the verse that follows suggests: 6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.

And see the tense used in this translation does not reflect future, the Christ as wrongfully suggested.

So there you have it folks, a good try by Robin but sorry a wrong one, again. Like I have said one wrong only leads to more and more wrongs only, unless be bravely admitted as what it is, a wrong.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 9:27pm

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Jesus was never called wonderful. He never counselled (took opinion, Mushawarat) He was never mighty God, eternal father (he was not a father as they say he did not marry) He Jesus was not a prince of peace. He could not bring any peace in his own time.

This verse does not apply to Jesus. But checked carefully, it applies to our prophet Muhammad in all respects. I will post the details soon. It was our prophet who was told to take opinion. It is written in the Quran "Their (Muslims) matters are decided by mutual consultation". The prince of peace also applies to our prophet. The religion that he brought is called Peace (Islam).

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:06am

honeto wrote:

Robin,

two wrongs don't make one right? or do they?

First your quote does not answers my quote, it actually makes stronger my point that Bible contradicts, for sure.

Second your quote is a misquote form the Jewish Bible from where it was borrowed by Christians.

Here is your quote:

Isaiah 9:6

Now here is the same verse as it appear in Jewish Bible, remember that where the OT came into the Christian Bible. Note how the words are twisted by Christians to mean completely different notion.

Now lets see this quote from where it was borrowed and altered to fit the Christian agenda, yet it failed by messing up more (here is a rare oppertunity to see me cut and paste):

And see the tense used in this translation does not reflect future, the Christ as wrongfully suggested.

So there you have it folks, a good try by Robin but sorry a wrong one, again. Like I have said one wrong only leads to more and more wrongs only, unless be bravely admitted as what it is, a wrong.

Hasan

But the fulfillment does!!

The Bible show you to be wrong:-

Luke 1:30-32

So the angel said to her: "Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; ³¹ and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. ³² This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David . . .

Thus showing it was and is talking of Jesus and Allah's anointed and appointed King!

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 1:10am

minuteman wrote:

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-

Isaiah 9:7

"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 5:59am

Minuteman, it cannot be Muhammed because in the list of descriptions is "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Muhammed is not God ;-)

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:45am

Angel wrote:

Minuteman, it cannot be Muhammed because in the list of descriptions is "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Muhammed is not God ;-)

You are right in some way. But it has to be understood by the special way which will be quite applicabe. As I said, I will explain all the points. There are actually seven specialities mentioned in this verse (or five?, I will see). Each one applies to our prophet Muhammad. But it will need explaining.

For the time being I will explain only the one you have mentioned above. Please remember that the coming of our prophet was likened to the coming of the God himself. Even though he was not God at all. But his coming is like the coming of God. In that sense, he can be called the mighty God. More later.... hopefully.

As for the counselor, it is written in the Quran and ordered to our prophet to take opinion of the friends, "Wa Shawirhum fi al Amr", i.e. "Include their opinion in your orders" or take their opinion in all matters. That is called counselling and the prophet practically took opinion of the friends in all important matters.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 7:17am

minuteman wrote:

For the time being I will explain only the one you have mentioned above. Please remember that the coming of our prophet was likened to the coming of the God himself. Even though he was not God at all. But his coming is like the coming of God. In that sense, he can be called the mighty God. More later.... hopefully.

more later...Good, still confused as why Muhammed would be called God

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 1:06am

minuteman wrote:

Angel wrote:

Minuteman, it cannot be Muhammed because in the list of descriptions is "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Muhammed is not God ;-)

Thus we read in the Bible at John 1:1-2:

John 1:1-2

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. ² This one was in [the] beginning with God.

Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 8:15pm

robin wrote:

minuteman wrote:

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-

Isaiah 9:7

"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

1) There is no such name "Jehova", so in actuallity, Moses did not worship "Jehova" either.

2) You "assert" Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not worship the same God as Moses. Please back up your "assertion".

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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 2:24pm

Andalus wrote:

robin wrote:

minuteman wrote:

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-

Isaiah 9:7

"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

1) There is no such name "Jehova", so in actuallity, Moses did not worship "Jehova" either.

2) You "assert" Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not worship the same God as Moses. Please back up your "assertion".

Exo 3:15 And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, Jehovah the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My title from generation to generation.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Pslam 83

16 Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your name, O Jehovah.

17 Let them be ashamed and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and lost;

18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Eze 38:23 So I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

God�s name, Jehovah, appears nearly 7,000 times in ancient Bible manuscripts.

Moses did worship Jehovah; Muhammed did not! I stand by my post!

Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 10:22pm

robin wrote:

Andalus wrote:

robin wrote:

minuteman wrote:

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-

Isaiah 9:7

"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

1) There is no such name "Jehova", so in actuallity, Moses did not worship "Jehova" either.

2) You "assert" Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not worship the same God as Moses. Please back up your "assertion".

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Pslam 83

16 Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your name, O Jehovah.

17 Let them be ashamed and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and lost;

18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Eze 38:23 So I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

God�s name, Jehovah, appears nearly 7,000 times in ancient Bible manuscripts.

Moses did worship Jehovah; Muhammed did not! I stand by my post!

You are not quoting the actual "bible", there is no "J" in the Hebrew TANACH. Acccording to the Hebrew, there is no "Jehova", hence you are not worshipping the God of Moses, and Moses did not worship any God named "Jehova". Your almost "cult like" group tries to use the name game as a gimmick, but be aware, you will not find "Jehova" in the Tenakh. Solid scholarship, not gimmicks, is what will reveal the validity of a group.

Finally, you have not provided any argument that Porphet Muhammad (saw) did not worship the same God as Moses. If you are going to assert such strong opinions, we ask that you show what you bases is. Making bold claims and stating them as fact is not only juvenile, but no productive, and for the spirit of the forum, you are asked to provide more than just bold claims.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 1:16am

Andalus wrote:

robin wrote:

Andalus wrote:

robin wrote:

minuteman wrote:

Dear Hasan, even though the church has altered the words of the original Jewish book, it still does not prove anything for Jesus. Please see:

Isaiah 9:6

Please note that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counseler". This is a trick of the church to omit the comma.

As Muhammad is not worshiper of Jehovah God, the God of Moses, who brings this about, it does not apply to him:-

Isaiah 9:7

"The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

1) There is no such name "Jehova", so in actuallity, Moses did not worship "Jehova" either.

2) You "assert" Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not worship the same God as Moses. Please back up your "assertion".

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Pslam 83

16 Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your name, O Jehovah.

17 Let them be ashamed and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and lost;

18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Eze 38:23 So I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

God�s name, Jehovah, appears nearly 7,000 times in ancient Bible manuscripts.

Moses did worship Jehovah; Muhammed did not! I stand by my post!

The following are various Jewish Bible translations which all use the divine name in its Hebrew form amongst the English text at Exodus 6:3, they read as follows:-

"and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty but by My name vuvh I made Me not known to them" ftn. The ineffable name, read Adonai, which means, the Lord."-The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text A New Translation The Jewish Publications Society of America.

"I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shaddai, but I did not make myself known to them by My name vuvh. " ftn. This divine name is traditionally not pronounced; instead, Adonai, "(the) LORD," is regularly."-'TANAKH The Holy Scriptures' The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text The Jewish Publications Society Philadelphia, New York, Jerusalem.

"and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name vuvh I made Me Not known to them." ftn. The ineffable name, read Adonai, which means, the Lord."-The Soncino Chumash. The Five Books of Moses with Haphtaroth.

some other rendering of the same verse from various English translations:-

"I was seen by Avraham, by Yitzhak, and by Yaakov as God Shaddai, but (by) my name YHWH I was not known to them."-The Five Books of Moses by Everatt Fox

"And I appeared vnto Abraham, vnto Isaac, and vuto Iacob, by the Name of God Almighty, but by my name IEHOVAH was I not knowen to them."-K.J.V. 1611 Edition

"And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them."-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

"the Almighty God who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-though I did not revel my name, Jehovah, to them."-THE WAY The Catholic Living Bible

"To Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them."-The New Jerusalem Bible

Spanish Bible: Ex 6:1-3:

"JEHOVA respondi� � Mois�s: Ahora ver�s lo que yo har� � Fara�n; porque con mano fuerte los ha de dejar ir; y con mano fuerte los ha de echar de su tierra. Habl� todav�a Dios � Mois�s, y d�jole: Yo soy JEHOVA;Y aparec� � Abraham, � Isaac y � Jacob bajo el nombre de Dios Omnipotente, mas en mi nombre JEHOVA no me notifiqu� � ellos."-'LA SANTA BIBLIA' by Reina-Valera, 1909

In the above texts is the name of Almighty God "Jehovah" as translated from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, vuvh, YHWH which is a different word form than that of "LORD" (Heb. hbst) as in the Holy and inspired Scriptures that where penned to bring praise and Worshipers to Him, Almighty God!

Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 9:40pm