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What did Prophet Muhammad prophecy?
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Points: 2187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2009 at 10:45am
I agree with brother Andalus that the word "prophet" does not necessarily mean exclusively "one who prophesies".  The word does have other connotations.  However, I also think that brother (or sister?) Meditations has shown that Muhammad (pbuh) does fit into Shibboleth's rather basic definition of the word.
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

I agree with brother Andalus that the word "prophet" does not necessarily mean exclusively "one who prophesies".  The word does have other connotations.  However, I also think that brother (or sister?) Meditations has shown that Muhammad (pbuh) does fit into Shibboleth's rather basic definition of the word.
Absolutely! Prophecy was amongst the signs that the prophet gave to prove his authority. But I have so many problems with the assumption buried in the question. It should be argued, not just asserted.
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Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Absolutely! Prophecy was amongst the signs that the prophet gave to prove his authority. But I have so many problems with the assumption buried in the question. It should be argued, not just asserted.


Definitions , and words in general are packages for the meaning it contains,

one word's meaning for someone could mean a very different thing for another
you either establish a common definition ground , or bypass this step and agree ( temporarily ) with the other's definition to cut it short

Not sure if discussing the definition of a Prophet would result in a common ground , for in the end each party can stick to their own definition and insist on it

This is why one of the rules of debating , that there're no hassle/spat in definitions , of it's only a package for the meaning it contains

That said, you do have a point, for which I think a post on the islamic definition of

a Prophet
a Messanger
Differences between the two, if any, and examples of each
would be quite useful

Any volunteers ?
If none, I'll try to do it in shaa Allah , when time permits

AsSalam Alaykoum
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The Bible clearly tells us that the Prophets are from the lineage of Isaac, not Ishmael. In fact, the Qur'an tells us in Sura 29:27:

And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous. This verse says nothing of Ishmael, or of any Prophets descending from him. Furthermore, the Quran itself states that Jesus was a Prophet but the Bible does not state that Muhammad was a Prophet.

***

Deuteronomy 18: 20-22

��However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my Name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: �How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?� When the prophet speaks in the Name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.�**

Muhammad spoke in the name of Allah not in the name of Jehovah-Hebrew (YHWH)



Edited by Shibboleth - 23 August 2009 at 10:34pm
�If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85)
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Originally posted by Meditations Meditations wrote:

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Absolutely! Prophecy was amongst the signs that the prophet gave to prove his authority. But I have so many problems with the assumption buried in the question. It should be argued, not just asserted.


Definitions , and words in general are packages for the meaning it contains,

one word's meaning for someone could mean a very different thing for another
you either establish a common definition ground , or bypass this step and agree ( temporarily ) with the other's definition to cut it short

Not sure if discussing the definition of a Prophet would result in a common ground , for in the end each party can stick to their own definition and insist on it

This is why one of the rules of debating , that there're no hassle/spat in definitions , of it's only a package for the meaning it contains

That said, you do have a point, for which I think a post on the islamic definition of

a Prophet
a Messanger
Differences between the two, if any, and examples of each
would be quite useful

Any volunteers ?
If none, I'll try to do it in shaa Allah , when time permits

AsSalam Alaykoum
 
 
The fallacy was in the question, with an assumption buried in its premis. So it was not a matter of finding common ground in and of itself, it was a matter of the person to "clear up the fallacy". This needs to be done in order to proceed on any real discussion on prophethood.
 
The questioner obviously has a christian perspective of prophethood, which differs from the Judaic tradition, which is another point that could be brought out once the question was clarified and would allow the questioner to have a chance to broden their horizons.
 
I will include a link that goes into the idea of prophethood in the Islamic tradition. It is from classical sources. Keep in mind this differs from the Judaic notion which holds that the peson's message has something to do with Israel.
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:


The Bible clearly tells us that the Prophets are from the lineage of Isaac, not Ishmael.

 
Completely inaccurate. The bible does not exclude Ishmael from having a direct relaitonship with God, or to act as an intermediary between God and man. Since Ishmael would not have a role in the foundation of Israel in the Judaic tradition, then obviously he would not be a Judaic Prophet within the conext of that definition,
 
Quote
 
In fact, the Qur'an tells us in Sura 29:27:

And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous. This verse says nothing of Ishmael, or of any Prophets descending from him. Furthermore, the Quran itself states that Jesus was a Prophet but the Bible does not state that Muhammad was a Prophet.

Who cares, and why does it matter? The Quran states the Ishmael is a prophet, 19:54,55. Poor soul, you believe you are throwing daggers at us....these are just helium ballons. But if your dellusion makes you happy, then I am happy.
 
 
Quote
 
 
Deuteronomy 18: 20-22

��However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my Name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: �How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?� When the prophet speaks in the Name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.�**

Muhamad spoke in the name of Allah not in the name of Jehovah-Hebrew (YHWH)

Could you back up your "assertion" with proof? Now this will require you to actually write and not paste. Back up your claim and tell us the falsehood that Prophet Muhammad spoke.
 
You JWs really bug me with this name game. You all give me a headache. If you guys could only see how idiotic your rants are. I am not worried about what His name is or isn't, if you want to act a fool that is your free choice. What I want is for you to back up your claims. If we use this verse from the bible, Paul should have been put to death.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:


The Bible clearly tells us that the Prophets are from the lineage of Isaac, not Ishmael.

 
Completely inaccurate. The bible does not exclude Ishmael from having a direct relaitonship with God, or to act as an intermediary between God and man. Since Ishmael would not have a role in the foundation of Israel in the Judaic tradition, then obviously he would not be a Judaic Prophet within the conext of that definition,
 
Quote
 
In fact, the Qur'an tells us in Sura 29:27:

And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous. This verse says nothing of Ishmael, or of any Prophets descending from him. Furthermore, the Quran itself states that Jesus was a Prophet but the Bible does not state that Muhammad was a Prophet.

Who cares, and why does it matter? The Quran states the Ishmael is a prophet, 19:54,55. Poor soul, you believe you are throwing daggers at us....these are just helium ballons. But if your dellusion makes you happy, then I am happy.
 
 
Quote
 
 
Deuteronomy 18: 20-22

��However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my Name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: �How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?� When the prophet speaks in the Name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.�**

Muhamad spoke in the name of Allah not in the name of Jehovah-Hebrew (YHWH)

Could you back up your "assertion" with proof? Now this will require you to actually write and not paste. Back up your claim and tell us the falsehood that Prophet Muhammad spoke.
 
You JWs really bug me with this name game. You all give me a headache. If you guys could only see how idiotic your rants are. I am not worried about what His name is or isn't, if you want to act a fool that is your free choice. What I want is for you to back up your claims. If we use this verse from the bible, Paul should have been put to death.


Indeed! Paul should have been put to death immediately.

The man should have run back straight to Jerusalem, after the 'scales' had been removed from his eyes. to report to the elders. And the elders should have finished him off.

Salaams
BMZ
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Meditations View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

I will include a link that goes into the idea of prophethood in the Islamic tradition. It is from classical sources. Keep in mind this differs from the Judaic notion which holds that the peson's message has something to do with Israel.
 
 


Ofcourse it's different , I wanted to post the 'islamic' definition , for anyone who's interested

The link doesn't seem to work, does it work for you?

AsSalam Alaykoum
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