An open letter to �the world"
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Topic: An open letter to �the world"
Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Subject: An open letter to �the world"
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:12am
Even though I do not agree with Kahane in totality, I think that he makes some very interesting points. Those that have an open mind and those that judge wisely and slowly should consider what he is saying, even though he was an extremist. I think that if all preconcieved notions are torn asunder and disregarded, one can adress something in a clear and logical manner, while at the same time taking into consideration impartial and open-minded historical analyses.
An open letter to 'the world' By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
Dear World,
It Appears That You Are Hard To Please.
I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged? Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people - upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.
It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State.
The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home - to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state - we continue to upset you.
You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset.
The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929. Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?
And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset, then?
The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them..............
Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less. |
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Replies:
Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 9:52am
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
Even though I do not agree with Kahane in totality, I think that he makes some very interesting points. Those that have an open mind and those that judge wisely and slowly should consider what he is saying, even though he was an extremist. I think that if all preconcieved notions are torn asunder and disregarded, one can adress something in a clear and logical manner, while at the same time taking into consideration impartial and open-minded historical analyses.
An open letter to 'the world' By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
Dear World,
It Appears That You Are Hard To Please.
I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged? Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people - upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.
It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State.
The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home - to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state - we continue to upset you.
You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset.
The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929. Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?
And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset, then?
The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them..............
Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less. |
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Salaamu Alaykum,
The truth of the matter is the opposite of what kahane has presented and you have agreed with.
The Phalasteenee had land they owned and lived on for hundreds of years, even thousands for some.
The foreign invasion of the Zionists has driven them into extreme poverty where they once were wealthy with all they needed for food, shelter, and living at peace with their God, whether they were Jew, Muslim, Christian or atheist.
These statements are so silly and implausible! What did the faces of the Zionist invaders look like as they massacered entire villages of defenseless citizens? What do the faces of the soldiers and settlers look like as they bully, harass, bulldoze, imprison and torment the remnants of the Phalasteeneeyeen?
They have twisted, angry faces calling for blood and call the Phalasteeneeyeen the niggers of the Arab world. What did you think? They calmly and peacefully took their guns and tanks and bulldozers out and said in quiet voices: Don't be alarmed. Be calm. We are going to kill you all now. Leave, run if you can. We don't mind. Just don't come back, and don't tell anyone the truth about our massacres, Okay?
------------------------------------------
Kahane's words are not a genuine point of view. They are lies and propoganda. The Zionists came; they massacred; they conquered, and they rule with an iron fist and team of bulldozers, fighter planes, and tanks provided by the United States Government and her people.
And as always we need to remember not to hate any but the oppressors. Many Jews and Israeli Zion lovers hate the massacres and the oppression and fight it as much as they can.
When we let hatred blind us to truths, good and bad, the evil in this world win.
Peace
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 9:57am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
The Balfour deceleration predates all these dates and shows an established and long running campaign by the jews to take Palestine from the Palestinians. what he speaks of according to what little i know where backlashes against the jewish communities that at the time where clearly trying to steal land, jews that had no direct/blood lineage to the original jewish people in the roman times.
This is clear and rational thought, jews who already lived there in peace with the arabs apposed the state of Israel.
Islamicly speaking no massacre is justifiable for any reason not even in a valid jihad.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 11:15am
I will analyze the whole of your reply.
Salaamu Alaykum,
The truth of the matter is the opposite of what kahane has presented and you have agreed with.
First of all, I did not make any statements of approbation, do not take what I have stated out of context, and do not my manipulate my words. "The truth of the matter" is more complicated than it seems, and it is never "the opposite" of anything, but a variation of that something intertwined with differential conjectures, analyses, and ideas that may just turn out to be a matter of perception that is reasonable than anything periphreal.
The Phalasteenee had land they owned and lived on for hundreds of years, even thousands for some.
The "Phalastenee" did not have anything as far ownership is concerned, that area of land was controlled by the Turks, or Ottomon Empire. If you were educated properly maybe then you would take it upon yourself to read before speaking. Also, the "Phalasteenee" were not just Muslims, they were also Jews and Christians. Over half a million Jews lived in "Palestine" before the state of Israel was even an idea.
Additionally, the Muslim "Palestinians" of today could not have been their thousands of years, Islam is only about 1500 years old, and the Turks conquered that area in about the 12th century. What do the "Palestinians" have to do with anything?
The word Palestinian or Filastin, as the country is called in Arabic, is not Palestinian‑Arab in origin (the Arabs of the region rarely used it before 1948) but refers to the biblical "Philistines," whose name the ancient Romans gave to the country in an attempt to obliterate the Jews' connection to it, and even this designation created by the Romans did not have any direct connection to the Palestinians.
The contemporary Palestinian people are just a dialect of a larger sorrounding group that subsumed many other nationalities, and civilzations, a group that was ruled by the Turks, British, and the French before 1948, and a group that never really had their own unified nation, but were composed of conglomerations of tribes, some of which are Bedouins, and some actually serve in the Israeli army.
Also, ownership was not emphasized by Kahane, he merely spoke of murders, you are changing the subject. If you are trying to say that sand is more imporant than humanity then you need a serious brain transplant.
The foreign invasion of the Zionists has driven them into extreme poverty where they once were wealthy with all they needed for food, shelter, and living at peace with their God, whether they were Jew, Muslim, Christian or atheist.
Actually, they or the Mulslim Arabs who you think are the Palestinians, were in extreme poverty before the "Zionists" were ever there, and when the "Zionists" came, the land was revitilized, and many Arab buisnesses began to prosper. Their poverty was caused by Islamic rule, and Ottomon tax demands, demands that ecologically devasted "Palestine" because taxes were demanded for every tree that was in the ground,and many trees were obviously removed. This was the Ottomon way of capitilizing off the destruction of mother nature.
These statements are so silly and implausible! What did the faces of the Zionist invaders look like as they massacered entire villages of defenseless citizens?
Hypothetically speaking, they probably looked, in this imaginary situation, like the faces of your brethren at a Hamas demonstration, or the Arab actors on your telivision networks that pretend to be Jews, and try to make ugly faces.
What do the faces of the soldiers and settlers look like as they bully, harass, bulldoze, imprison and torment the remnants of the Phalasteeneeyeen?
What do the faces of your brothers look like when they yell "Allah Akbar" and blow themselves up, and kill innocent Israeli children?
They have twisted, angry faces calling for blood and call the Phalasteeneeyeen the niggers of the Arab world. What did you think? They calmly and peacefully took their guns and tanks and bulldozers out and said in quiet voices: Don't be alarmed. Be calm. We are going to kill you all now. Leave, run if you can. We don't mind. Just don't come back, and don't tell anyone the truth about our massacres, Okay?
Forgive me, but were you involved in these massacres because you seem to have first hand knowledge of this? Are you one of the "niggers" that the Israelies left alone so you could perpetuate the "truth" of the "Israeli evil" all over the world, and your imaginary saintliness, and propriety in times of war?
Kahane's words are not a genuine point of view. They are lies and propoganda. The Zionists came; they massacred; they conquered, and they rule with an iron fist and team of bulldozers, fighter planes, and tanks provided by the United States Government and her people.
Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs. Who are these Zionists? What is the definition of that word? To most Arabs a "zionist" and a Jew is a synonymous term, please clarify what you mean. I must admit that certain "Zionists" acted unethically, but did you ever take a look in the mirror at your own reflection before you label the "Zionists" evil, or animalistic?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these "Zionists rule with an Iron fist," so what then does the Taliban do? What does Iran do? Do they rule with a wooden penus? Or maybe a suicide bomb and an ak-47? If you are going to hold the "Zionists" up to a certain standard, I expect you to do that for everybody. After all, you are an educated and inteligent individual.
And as always we need to remember not to hate any but the oppressors. Many Jews and Israeli Zion lovers hate the massacres and the oppression and fight it as much as they can.
Who is this "we" that you speak of? I am definately not a part of this "we," nor am I your oppressor, I respect you like a brother, and I wish that we could live as a single entity in serenity. We are after all cousins, as tradition dictates. "Many Jews and Israeli Zion lovers" do fight "the oppresion." They fight the oppresion of the Jewish people and western society that has become prey to your uneducated oligarchs and tyrants that want to consume the world in a ball of fire, and bring everybody back to the middle ages, a time when the Islamic civilization was thought to be the most glorious, even though that was a time when your people were involved more so with science than religious propoganda, and nonsensical-contradictory and anti-semetic philosophy.
When we let hatred blind us to truths, good and bad, the evil in this world win.
That is something I agree with, Amen.
Peace
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 11:30am
The Balfour deceleration predates all these dates and shows an established and long running campaign by the jews to take Palestine from the Palestinians. what he speaks of according to what little i know where backlashes against the jewish communities that at the time where clearly trying to steal land, jews that had no direct/blood lineage to the original jewish people in the roman times.
Palestinians weren't just Mulsims, some of them were also Jewish and Christians so why would they try to steal land from themselves? They were a part of this sociopolitical enviroment, and did not need to make any claims because of their historical right, the oppresion and suffering caused by Muslim Palestinians, and because of their living side by side with these same Muslim Palestinians for hundreds of years.
And what exactly did those Muslim Palestinians know of our lineage? And how were those Jewish Palestinians trying to steal land if they already lived side by side with these same people before the creation of the state of Israel? Are you saying that a Muslim has more right to that land than a Jew, and are you saying that these Palestinian murders conducted research on Jewish lineage before they murdered them?
What is the source for your observations, that they were killed because they were trying to take land? Maybe they were used as a scapegoat and a mechanism of displacement as they were in Morrocco and Egypt. For the sake of argument, let's say they were trying to steal land. How do you justify the murder of women and children by suggesting that they stole land? How would children be able to steal land? How do you superimpose material things over people?
This is clear and rational thought, jews who already lived there in peace with the arabs apposed the state of Israel.
What about the Jews that the Arabs killed? Were those Jews in peace with the Arabs because they were resting with the ground?
Actually, the only Jews that opposed the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 were the religious, the same people your telivision networks denounce, castigate, and degrade.
Islamicly speaking no massacre is justifiable for any reason not even in a valid jihad.
Tell that to the Palestians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, and Saudis. Maybe they will listen to you, you are one of their brothers.
Salam
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:51pm
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 8:01pm
Israeli Avatar,
Just to quench my curiousity can you provide tangible evidence that Israeli is not a racist state and extends rights to "all individuals" no matter their religion, race or creed?
Can you also provide tangible evidence (aside from personal opinion) that the current massacre of the Palestinians is a solution to root out terrorism?
One last thing.....
Can you also provide evidence of a strategy provided by Israel to create some kind of middle east peace where the Palestinians can have their own state without the fear of being exterminated?
Bulldozing homes of Palestinians and calling it justice is not a solution and frankly, it is not even justice. I'm sure there are Palestinians that do harbor criminals but they do so because they really don't like Israel not because they support their actions. Similarly we cops face this on the streets everyday. Many neighborhoods where neighbors are very "nosy" harbor criminals who ahve committed serious crimes (even murders). When we caught a criminal in a neighbors house we asked them: "Why did you harbor a criminal?" They told us "We don't like cops."
I'm very critical of both states because both Palestinians and Israelis are to blame for their own mess but I believe personally that Israel, because of their capability is being too aggressive and too fanatical with their agenda to root out terrorism. I'm awaiting for someone who lives in that region (or has good knowledge of the current situation) to show me tangible proof that their side is right.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 5:17am
Salaamu Alaykum,
I won't analyze the whole of your reply. However, a couple of quick points from a busy Muslim mom:
The Phalasteeneeyeen were mostly wealthy in the wealth of the abundance that their beautiful land provided, and still does, just to their oppressors and not them. I read Exodus by Uris and the lies it perpetrated. The Jews, Christians, Muslims and others lived mostly peaceful, happy lives, especially compared to what their lives are like after the Zionist invasion supported at first by those who wished to rid their countries of the Jews they hated.
And believe me if I had the time and energy I might insult you in return, but it is against the rules of this forum to do so, so I suggest you desist from it. And these ideas and thoughts all came from the beautiful brain that my Loving Lord has provided me with. Al-Hamdulilah. Allahu Akbar!
Just to be clear or hopefully so, I love Jews and Muslims and Christians and yes, even atheists, who are decent people who respect and care for others lives and property and don't make excuses to massacre, ignore, or marginalize human suffering. My distress and sadness encompasses the Jews and Christians and atheists as well as Muslims who suffer under the Zionist racist occupation of Phalasteen.
Islaam was the first and will be the last religion. We submit our hearts, minds, bodies and souls to Allah, the Ubiquitous.
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
I will analyze the whole of your reply.
Salaamu Alaykum,
The truth of the matter is the opposite of what kahane has presented and you have agreed with.
First of all, I did not make any statements of approbation, do not take what I have stated out of context, and do my manipulate my words. "The truth of the matter" is more complicated than it seems, and it is never "the opposite" of anything, but a variation of that something intertwined with differential conjectures, analyses, and ideas that may just turn out to be a matter of perception that is reasonable than anything periphreal.
The Phalasteenee had land they owned and lived on for hundreds of years, even thousands for some.
The "Phalastenee" did not have anything as far ownership is concerned, that area of land was controlled by the Turks, or Ottomon Empire. If you were educated properly maybe then you would take it upon yourself to read before speaking. Also, the "Phalasteenee" were not just Muslims, they were also Jews and Christians. Over half a million Jews lived in "Palestine" before the state of Israel was even an idea.
Additionally, the Muslim "Palestinians" of today could not have been their thousands of years, Islam is only about 1500 years old, and the Turks conquered that area in about the 12th century. What do the "Palestinians" have to do with anything?
The word Palestinian or Filastin, as the country is called in Arabic, is not Palestinian‑Arab in origin (the Arabs of the region rarely used it before 1948) but refers to the biblical "Philistines," whose name the ancient Romans gave to the country in an attempt to obliterate the Jews' connection to it, and even this designation created by the Romans did not have any direct connection to the Palestinians.
The contemporary Palestinian people are just a dialect of a larger sorrounding group that subsumed many other nationalities, and civilzations, a group that was ruled by the Turks, British, and the French before 1948, and a group that never really had their own unified nation, but were composed of conglomerations of tribes, some of which are Bedouins, and some actually serve in the Israeli army.
Also, ownership was not emphasized by Kahane, he merely spoke of murders, you are changing the subject. If you are trying to say that sand is more imporant than humanity then you need a serious brain transplant.
The foreign invasion of the Zionists has driven them into extreme poverty where they once were wealthy with all they needed for food, shelter, and living at peace with their God, whether they were Jew, Muslim, Christian or atheist.
Actually, they or the Mulslim Arabs who you think are the Palestinians, were in extreme poverty before the "Zionists" were ever there, and when the "Zionists" came, the land was revitilized, and many Arab buisnesses began to prosper. Their poverty was caused by Islamic rule, and Ottomon tax demands, demands that ecologically devasted "Palestine" because taxes were demanded for every tree that was in the ground,and many trees were obviously removed. This was the Ottomon way of capitilizing off the destruction of mother nature.
These statements are so silly and implausible! What did the faces of the Zionist invaders look like as they massacered entire villages of defenseless citizens?
Hypothetically speaking, they probably looked, in this imaginary situation, like the faces of your brethren at a Hamas demonstration, or the Arab actors on your telivision networks that pretend to be Jews, and try to make ugly faces.
What do the faces of the soldiers and settlers look like as they bully, harass, bulldoze, imprison and torment the remnants of the Phalasteeneeyeen?
What do the faces of your brothers look like when they yell "Allah Akbar" and blow themselves up, and kill innocent Israeli children?
They have twisted, angry faces calling for blood and call the Phalasteeneeyeen the niggers of the Arab world. What did you think? They calmly and peacefully took their guns and tanks and bulldozers out and said in quiet voices: Don't be alarmed. Be calm. We are going to kill you all now. Leave, run if you can. We don't mind. Just don't come back, and don't tell anyone the truth about our massacres, Okay?
Forgive me, but were you involved in these massacres because you seem to have first hand knowledge of this? Are you one of the "niggers" that the Israelies left alone so you could perpetuate the "truth" of the "Israeli evil" all over the world, and your imaginary saintliness, and propriety in times of war?
Kahane's words are not a genuine point of view. They are lies and propoganda. The Zionists came; they massacred; they conquered, and they rule with an iron fist and team of bulldozers, fighter planes, and tanks provided by the United States Government and her people.
Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs. Who are these Zionists? What is the definition of that word? To most Arabs a "zionist" and a Jew is a synonymous term, please clarify what you mean. I must admit that certain "Zionists" acted unethically, but did you ever take a look in the mirror at your own reflection before you label the "Zionists" evil, or animalistic?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these "Zionists rule with an Iron fist," so what then does the Taliban do? What does Iran do? Do they rule with a wooden penus? Or maybe a suicide bomb and an ak-47? If you are going to hold the "Zionists" up to a certain standard, I expect you to do that for everybody. After all, you are an educated and inteligent individual.
And as always we need to remember not to hate any but the oppressors. Many Jews and Israeli Zion lovers hate the massacres and the oppression and fight it as much as they can.
Who is this "we" that you speak of? I am definately not a part of this "we," nor am I your oppressor, I respect you like a brother, and I wish that we could live as a single entity in serenity. We are after all cousins, as tradition dictates. "Many Jews and Israeli Zion lovers" do fight "the oppresion." They fight the oppresion of the Jewish people and western society that has become prey to your uneducated oligarchs and tyrants that want to consume the world in a ball of fire, and bring everybody back to the middle ages, a time when the Islamic civilization was thought to be the most glorious, even though that was a time when your people were involved more so with science than religious propoganda, and nonsensical-contradictory and anti-semetic philosophy.
When we let hatred blind us to truths, good and bad, the evil in this world win.
That is something I agree with, Amen.
Peace
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------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 5:56am
"I think that if all preconcieved notions are torn asunder and disregarded, one can adress something in a clear and logical manner, while at the same time taking into consideration impartial and open-minded historical analyses." Israeli_avatar
Oh wouldn't that be nice!
"Islamicly speaking no massacre is justifiable for any reason not even in a valid jihad." Rami
"Just to be clear or hopefully so, I love Jews and Muslims and Christians and yes, even atheists, who are decent people who respect and care for others lives and property and don't make excuses to massacre, ignore, or marginalize human suffering. My distress and sadness encompasses the Jews and Christians and atheists as well as Muslims who suffer under the Zionist racist occupation of Phalasteen." Herjihad
Perhaps, from his point of view, Israeli_Avatar has a point. But it is that very point which continues and perpetrates the very atrocities he derides in the Middle East today. On both "sides". There is no "Simple Truth!"
I used to say to my children when they quarelled: "Why can't we all just get along?" Simplistic, yes. But, hopefully and I pray, there will come a point in history when we realise that the past is the past and harping on it endlessly gets us nowhere.
C
Where is Daniel Dworsky when we need him?
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 4:19pm
Cassandra wrote:
"I think that if all preconcieved notions are torn asunder and disregarded, one can adress something in a clear and logical manner, while at the same time taking into consideration impartial and open-minded historical analyses." Israeli_avatar
Oh wouldn't that be nice!
"Islamicly speaking no massacre is justifiable for any reason not even in a valid jihad." Rami
"Just to be clear or hopefully so, I love Jews and Muslims and Christians and yes, even atheists, who are decent people who respect and care for others lives and property and don't make excuses to massacre, ignore, or marginalize human suffering. My distress and sadness encompasses the Jews and Christians and atheists as well as Muslims who suffer under the Zionist racist occupation of Phalasteen." Herjihad
Perhaps, from his point of view, Israeli_Avatar has a point. But it is that very point which continues and perpetrates the very atrocities he derides in the Middle East today. On both "sides". There is no "Simple Truth!"
I used to say to my children when they quarelled: "Why can't we all just get along?" Simplistic, yes. But, hopefully and I pray, there will come a point in history when we realise that the past is the past and harping on it endlessly gets us nowhere.
C
Where is Daniel Dworsky when we need him?
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Salaamu Alaykum,
I'm sure Daniel is busy caring for his family.
I disagree, Cassandra. The clear truth is there were a group of people living peaceably for years as farmers and some city dwellers. As with any people, they had some small conflicts amongst themselves. Then because of a preplanned arrangement, people desperate to escape torment were lied to and led to believe they would find peace and prosperity on the nearly empty land of Jerusalem. But that wasn't so. Those poor people soon found out that they were supposed to go from one horrendous conflict to attack and kill others as they had just been.
The people's land, hopes and dreams were stolen and their families massacred. There's no two sides to that story. It's clear that the people had a home for hundreds of years where their farms and homes in the cities passed down from parents to children, and then they were chased down and killed and now are living in a small corner of their homes or their neighbor's homes.
It's one-sided. The evil needs to stop. And as I understand Brother Daniel, he also recognizes that the land was invaded and occuppied. Look it up in the middle east section, please.
And now? The oppression must stop immediately so that people can live their lives. And the Phalasteeneeyeen must be given the right of return by the Israeli government. Imagine leaving your country for a job and trying to come back only to be told that you couldn't! Imagine being forced out, running from murderers living in caves and tents knowing your own home is just over the border.
The people with the power, money and guns need to make good decisions for a change. Their policy of aggression and dimunition of the human and Allah Given rights of people must end. Their foot is on the neck of the Phalasteeneeyeen, and when they take it off, then the Phalasteeneeyeen will get up with dignity and begin to live their lives with peace, love and dignity. Except those whose torturous lives has tormented them beyond human recognition.
ISA Allah will guide us and protect us. They suffer openly, and we will suffer if we do not care for those who are oppressed.
Allahu Akbar!
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 12:03am
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
I will analyze the whole of your reply.
Salaamu Alaykum,
The truth of the matter is the opposite of what kahane has presented and you have agreed with.
First of all, I did not make any statements of approbation, do not take what I have stated out of context, and do my manipulate my words. "The truth of the matter" is more complicated than it seems, and it is never "the opposite" of anything, but a variation of that something intertwined with differential conjectures, analyses, and ideas that may just turn out to be a matter of perception that is reasonable than anything periphreal.
The Phalasteenee had land they owned and lived on for hundreds of years, even thousands for some.
The "Phalastenee" did not have anything as far ownership is concerned, that area of land was controlled by the Turks, or Ottomon Empire. If you were educated properly maybe then you would take it upon yourself to read before speaking.
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Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc.
You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics.
Also, the "Phalasteenee" were not just Muslims, they were also Jews and Christians. Over half a million Jews lived in "Palestine" before the state of Israel was even an idea.
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Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated.
Additionally, the Muslim "Palestinians" of today could not have been their thousands of years, Islam is only about 1500 years old, and the Turks conquered that area in about the 12th century. What do the "Palestinians" have to do with anything?
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duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?
Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another.
The word Palestinian or Filastin, as the country is called in Arabic, is not Palestinian‑Arab in origin (the Arabs of the region rarely used it before 1948) but refers to the biblical "Philistines," whose name the ancient Romans gave to the country in an attempt to obliterate the Jews' connection to it, and even this designation created by the Romans did not have any direct connection to the Palestinians.
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More ad nauseum semantics. Who cares?
The contemporary Palestinian people are just a dialect of a larger sorrounding group that subsumed many other nationalities, and civilzations, a group that was ruled by the Turks, British, and the French before 1948, and a group that never really had their own unified nation, but were composed of conglomerations of tribes, some of which are Bedouins, and some actually serve in the Israeli army.
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zioinst rubbish that obfuscates the points given to you. You did not do an analysis, you did an "obfuscation".
Also, ownership was not emphasized by Kahane, he merely spoke of murders, you are changing the subject. If you are trying to say that sand is more imporant than humanity then you need a serious brain transplant.
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The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit.
The foreign invasion of the Zionists has driven them into extreme poverty where they once were wealthy with all they needed for food, shelter, and living at peace with their God, whether they were Jew, Muslim, Christian or atheist.
Actually, they or the Mulslim Arabs who you think are the Palestinians, were in extreme poverty before the "Zionists" were ever there, and when the "Zionists" came, the land was revitilized, and many Arab buisnesses began to prosper.
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LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention.
Their poverty was caused by Islamic rule, and Ottomon tax demands, demands that ecologically devasted "Palestine" because taxes were demanded for every tree that was in the ground,and many trees were obviously removed. This was the Ottomon way of capitilizing off the destruction of mother nature.
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That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum.
These statements are so silly and implausible! What did the faces of the Zionist invaders look like as they massacered entire villages of defenseless citizens?
Hypothetically speaking, they probably looked, in this imaginary situation, like the faces of your brethren at a Hamas demonstration, or the Arab actors on your telivision networks that pretend to be Jews, and try to make ugly faces.
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Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory.
That was not so hard!?
What do the faces of the soldiers and settlers look like as they bully, harass, bulldoze, imprison and torment the remnants of the Phalasteeneeyeen?
What do the faces of your brothers look like when they yell "Allah Akbar" and blow themselves up, and kill innocent Israeli children?
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Nice move! You avoided that one like a pro!
They have twisted, angry faces calling for blood and call the Phalasteeneeyeen the niggers of the Arab world. What did you think? They calmly and peacefully took their guns and tanks and bulldozers out and said in quiet voices: Don't be alarmed. Be calm. We are going to kill you all now. Leave, run if you can. We don't mind. Just don't come back, and don't tell anyone the truth about our massacres, Okay?
Forgive me, but were you involved in these massacres because you seem to have first hand knowledge of this?
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Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation.
Are you one of the "niggers" that the Israelies left alone so you could perpetuate the "truth" of the "Israeli evil" all over the world, and your imaginary saintliness, and propriety in times of war?
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Complex question (a fallacy).
Kahane's words are not a genuine point of view. They are lies and propoganda. The Zionists came; they massacred; they conquered, and they rule with an iron fist and team of bulldozers, fighter planes, and tanks provided by the United States Government and her people.
Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs. Who are these Zionists? What is the definition of that word?
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who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal".
To most Arabs a "zionist" and a Jew is a synonymous term, please clarify what you mean. I must admit that certain "Zionists" acted unethically, but did you ever take a look in the mirror at your own reflection before you label the "Zionists" evil, or animalistic?
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There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these "Zionists rule with an Iron fist," so what then does the Taliban do? What does Iran do? Do they rule with a wooden penus? Or maybe a suicide bomb and an ak-47? If you are going to hold the "Zionists" up to a certain standard, I expect you to do that for everybody. After all, you are an educated and inteligent individual.
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Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban.
Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them.
Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 1:03am
Me thinks the Jewish Avatar may not answer back....
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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 3:03am
Thank you for your response, Sister Herjihad. I think perhaps you may have misunderstood my point. Believe me......there is nothing in your reply I would disagree with. When I lived in Canada, I was once very friendly with a family of Christian Arabs from Ramallah. I have heard the horror stories first hand.
Perhaps what I meant was that it is very difficult to get outside of one's deeply entrenched point of view. This is the message I get from Israeli Avatar. Nothing more.
C
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 5:25am
israel avatar....hogwash!!!
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Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 8:18am
Israel:
"dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less."
The world:
We know, but "the world" changes, eventually you will care.
------------- Respectfully
aka2x2
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 9:33am
Cassandra wrote:
Thank you for your response, Sister Herjihad. I think perhaps you may have misunderstood my point. Believe me......there is nothing in your reply I would disagree with. When I lived in Canada, I was once very friendly with a family of Christian Arabs from Ramallah. I have heard the horror stories first hand.
Perhaps what I meant was that it is very difficult to get outside of one's deeply entrenched point of view. This is the message I get from Israeli Avatar. Nothing more.
C
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I totally agree with the above bold.
This is the problem I have had with certain individuals in the other thread I posted regarding the Mickey Mouse imposter. Not trying to derail here (just a brief non sequitor) but, I think when discussing (or criticizing) the current events going on in the Middle East it is hard for most of the individudals here who either have family, children, or otherrelatives in the Middle East. Again, Israeli Avatar really has no legit argument coming from a personal point of view. Unless there is someone who is there in the battle fields typing away his/her opining here we can only really give out second hand information on the tragedies there.
Avatar made some good points but as I read further his points became flawed through his reaosning as brother Andalus pointed out.
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Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 11:43am
I was just wondering, the title of the pleading, whining article Israeli
Avatar posted in the first place: Letter to the World, I am wondering which
world the writer is addressing?
To be honest, I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing, it's just too self
pitying and lays it on thick with all those historical clich�s: "woe is me, I'm
a Jew and the whole world hates me" kind of things, and "look! Look at
what you've done to my people! Wail and wail.
Does the world this letter is addressed to include, I wonder, say, South
Surinam, let's say, or the Tuvalu isles maybe? does it include the whole of
the Indonesian archipelago? Sumatra, North and South Korea, perhaps?
Does the world he is addressing include Vietnam or that small
insignificant place known as China, or does it include Botswana, South
Africa, Niger, Nigeria, oh I don't know, um, Algeria, or Cuba, Mexico, and
that bunch of countries near there, Nicaragua, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia ...?
Because I can't for the life of me find any justification for him assuming
the WHOLE WORLD is against him...
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 4:54pm
Duende: If you like to see where Israeli Avatar is coming from you owe it to yourself the perusal of a 3 part essay " http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/IH08Aa01.html - GERMANY, THE
RE-ENGINEERED ALLY "by Axel Brot. It is long one and may need your patience and undivided attention! It is mind boggling where Israelis stand today in the global political dynamics! If they can get away with doing what the article says to Germans I can feel the plight of helpless Palestinians or any one for that matter who gets on the short end of their stick! They are really pushing for the precipice.
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 6:57pm
There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.
"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."
What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.
"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."
You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.
"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."
Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.
"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."
When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue. Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America? What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.
"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."
"That was not so hard!?"
Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.
"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."
I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?
"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"
Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.
"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."
There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time. The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things.
"Complex question (a fallacy)."
The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?
"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."
The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.
"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""
I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.
"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."
We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.
"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."
You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.
"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."
Thats the problem.
"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."
And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree? You live in America, you Muslim dildo. The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking. As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.
"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."
Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.
I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 7:31pm
Israeli Avatar,
Just to quench my curiousity can you provide tangible evidence that Israeli is not a racist state and extends rights to "all individuals" no matter their religion, race or creed?
If I did provide evidence would you accept it as evidence? Rights in Israel are not granted equally to all residents, if that were to happen, there would not be an Israel. A very uninteligent question. Is it wrong to be discriminatory? That depends on what you value most, your people, or the other mother lovers.
Can you also provide tangible evidence (aside from personal opinion) that the current massacre of the Palestinians is a solution to root out terrorism?
Once again, we have reached another stumbling block. Our ideas on the word evidence deviate. Would you trust an IDF military report, or commentary provided by IDF soildiers, or pro-Israeli Arabs serving in the IDF? Probably not because we are Zionist pigs looking to dominate the world right? But, I believe that the situation is very difficult, and if the Israelies do not use force against violent groups like Hamas then what exactly should they do? Do you want us to send them Hershey kisses and roses when they lob rockets into Israeli towns and kill civilians? So we should not respond and just give all of the land to them? Would that end the violence in the middle east? Would all of these oligarchs and tyrants that are in charge in the Middle East suddenly cease to be? Would some of them dissapear? This is a very complicated sitiuation. Listen, I believe that there are good Arab and Muslim people out there, but they are small silent minority.
One last thing.....
Can you also provide evidence of a strategy provided by Israel to create some kind of middle east peace where the Palestinians can have their own state without the fear of being exterminated?
The Palestinians are being exterminated? When I was in the west bank, I have never seen such things, but when I was a member of Kahane's organization, I would love to have seen such things. You see I was an extremist, but then I realized that there is a chance for us to be freinds, a small chance, but still a chance.
If the Palestinians do not lob rockets in to Israel, and lay down there arms, we would never harm any of them. But Israel will always respond, even if it means to take the entire Palestinian civilization with it.
Bulldozing homes of Palestinians and calling it justice is not a solution and frankly, it is not even justice. I'm sure there are Palestinians that do harbor criminals but they do so because they really don't like Israel not because they support their actions. Similarly we cops face this on the streets everyday. Many neighborhoods where neighbors are very "nosy" harbor criminals who ahve committed serious crimes (even murders). When we caught a criminal in a neighbors house we asked them: "Why did you harbor a criminal?" They told us "We don't like cops."
Lobbing rockets into Israeli homes is also not a solution. There are Palestinians that harbor criminals because they do not like Israel, and maybe even because they are criminals themselves, but I will not play guessing games and risk my children. And as a cop you should understand that the violation of the law is just that, and do not compare your time on duty to what the IDF has to deal with, you sound moronic.
I'm very critical of both states because both Palestinians and Israelis are to blame for their own mess but I believe personally that Israel, because of their capability is being too aggressive and too fanatical with their agenda to root out terrorism. I'm awaiting for someone who lives in that region (or has good knowledge of the current situation) to show me tangible proof that their side is right.
Have you been to Israel? The Israelies are actually very liberal and secular, many of them just want this all to stop. The problem is that the poltical tides are turning, and these suicide bombings are pissing more Israelies off to the point where the right gaining a vast amount of influence now. The Israelies actually have appalling rules of engagment, and many of the soildiers are restrained to a very high degree. If the Israelies were as aggresive as you think they are, their wouldn't be any Palestinians. Why would you be waiting for somebody to show you such evidence? Why don't you just grab a plane ticket and go there tommorow? Live with an Israeli family, and a Palestinian family, or go beyond that and see familes all over Israel and Palestine. You are the type of guy that would not be satisfied with any "tangible evidence," presented online so shut your pie hole, and buy a ticket. Leave tommorow, and see for yourself. You say that both Palestinians and Israelies have blame and yet you want to know who is right in this situation? I think that you have made up your mind already.
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 2:15am
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.
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ad hominem. Are you show your true colors? hmmm
"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."
What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.
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Trying to befuddle a point through mere semantics speaks volumes of the chicanery you are trying to smear the thread with.
As for the red herring you threw out about the Ottomans: suppositional zionist drivel. The typical American lacky will take your Zionist misinformation as fact, but this is hardly an audience made up of the typical American.
"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."
You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.
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Why would I change the label of theif for someone who steals and continues to steal? No rational person would change the word to fit the thief. Likewise, why would I find another term to describe your diatribe? If you dislike the term, then loose the poor sophistry.
"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."
Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.
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If you agree that it was a strawman, then we can both agree that the red herring has no validity and therefore requires no further attention. This in no way means I agree or disagree, it means the point is not valid.
"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."
When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue.
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I do not assert words, although I can assert meanings, but the meanings are not simply asserted given I have used them in general terms. If you have a particular question about a particular instance that you have some confusion over, then please form a valid question and I will do my best to explain or make a correction if I am wrong. As far as I can see, you are attempting to "befuddle" the point I made with an unreasonable request.
Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America?
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Complex question: being a typical American does not imply that every American is typical. So me being in America, and me being an American, in no way implies that I am "typical".
My statements that reflect my usage of the word, "typical", when describing the Zionist drivel you are trying to push off on the forum, is in relation to the "typical" America who elects the leaders who set foriegn policy that reflect a clear "Zionist"/"Israeli" blind support based upon the typical "Zioinst drivel" that is similar to the "drivel" you have tried to use here.
The general word usage expressed in my statements with regard to your suppositional nonsense provide the context from which one, with even a cursory education, shoule be able to deduce the meaning/s.
I cannot make it any more "clear", and if your sophistry presses in this direction, I can only suspect ignorance on your part or chicanery.
Your contributions so far have revealed sufficient ability, so I must conclude "chicanery". Am I wrong?
What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.
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1) Zionist Lobby? Either you are joking, obtuse, or obfuscating: Groups that are pro Zionist that lobby US politics.
2) I did not make any reference to the relationship between Zionism and being an American which includes a universal qualifier (no Americans are Zionists..etc, etc) That would leave your question regarding exclusivity in such a relationship as "complex".
3) Your last comment was an incoherent attempt at a red herring. I think I would put up a "at work" sign on that one.
"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."
"That was not so hard!?"
Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.
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rubbish. The question given to you was quite clear but you simply practiced your pattern of masterful evasion. I answered for you. Refer back to the actual question (funny...I cannot help but think of your ad hominem concerning reading before talking..seriously, the question was rather straightforward)
"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."
I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?
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Neither did the sister who brought up historical atrocities commited by the thuggish Israeli regime. But that made no difference when you made an unreasonable demand on her as a requirement to discuss Israeli atrocities. You are now committing the fallacy of special pleading. You can quote your suppositional rubbish about history that fits your twisted, Zioinst world view, without any involvement in the stated events, but this cannot be allowed when it is about the spiritually, and morally bankrupt state of Israel and its dubious creation.
Movement: Zionism
"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"
Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.
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But I can "understand" Palestinian anger, while Israeli agression is unfounded. If someone from another land, gave my land away to another people in another land, I would be "pissed off" to no end, and I doubt I would sit calm and peaceful in some crap hole camp set up by the Israeli regime.
"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."
There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time.
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No, the manipulation of history is an art that has been brought to its apex by Zioinst and pro zionist thinkers. It is very simple: Someone gave another groups land away, to yet another people, and then these people have the nerve to cry "foul", and then build another holocaust museum to remind everyone that Israelis are really the victims (no I am not a holocaust denier).
The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things.
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The Israeli nation was founded on people who had nothing to do with the land! What color is your sky?!
"Complex question (a fallacy)."
The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?
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A complex question is a question that has buried in its premise an unargued, unproven assertion. Thats why it is complex.
"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."
The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.
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poor analogy. In this world, nothing has at its bases a single attribute, but a mix. Nothing is purely evil, even Hitler treated his lover with kindess. In this world, when we seek the attributes of "such and such" thing, we must speak in terms of its "predominant" attributes. You cannot simply say, "ok....Israel may have some racism, but so did everyone else". That kind of broad, sweeping generalization is problematic, not to mention commits equivocation fallacies with the word racism and the ideas of race and minority treatment. You cannot just "handwave" your way though that.
"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""
I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.
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I have made no claim to prophethood. I will say that movements such as Zionism count on the fact that truth can be manipulated by perception, which is why so many Americans are willing to sacrifice the blood of their children for Israeli foreign policy and have no idea they are doing so.
"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."
We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.
"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."
You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.
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I did not comment on the nonsense about the Ottomans. That is what I refered to.
Nor have I argued about Palestinian/Saudi relations..come now, this is simply more irrelevant riffraff. And your "virgin" comment is yet another red herring. I think I can let that go, after all, we shall not get into the Jewish Abraham "cuckhold" adventures as portrayed in the TANAKH, or even the glorified tales of the lying, deceptive wife of Issac portrayed as a "bitch" who had to use theft and "covert" deception to steal poor Essau's blessings and inheritance to ensure "Israeli" dominance. Sounds familiar yes? It writes out like the playbook that was used to found Israel. Lets not twist my faith to fit your Zionist preconceptions when you have mud all over your face.
"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."
Thats the problem.
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No, the fallacy of irrelevancy is the problem.
"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."
And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree?
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wtf? Did anyone say anything about what influences from western or any other culture is/ or is not in modern society? Did anyone state that there are no degress of influence from any society in another culture? You just evaded again.
You live in America, you Muslim dildo.
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Nice.
The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking.
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The Russians were defeated. The Russians were defeated because the US armed the rebels to the teeth with weapons, and the US trained them. The Russians pulled out. Perhaps you should put your Zionist revisionist books down and learn to think critically.
As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.
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The US and British took out a democratically elected leader with the use of terrorism. You are trying to say that because they found some elements in the society to help them, that somehow it makes the larger populace that the elements belong to "guilty by ethnic affiliation", therefore it was there own fault? Your argument is incoherent. And the irrational association of smaller elements (criminal) does not change my point.
"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."
Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.
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Of course you are. In theory (not saying you do this!), you can come to the US and act like a parasite: vote, influence policy, and suck the US dry all to support a foriegn nation which has no real loyalty to the US.
I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!
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No hard feelings.
May God guide you.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 9:40am
Andalus wrote:
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.
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ad hominem. Are you show your true colors? hmmm
Just like your brothers and sisters.
"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."
What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.
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Trying to befuddle a point through mere semantics speaks volumes of the chicanery you are trying to smear the thread with.
I am trying to understand what the hell your trying to say actually.
As for the red herring you threw out about the Ottomans: suppositional zionist drivel. The typical American lacky will take your Zionist misinformation as fact, but this is hardly an audience made up of the typical American.
Yes, the typical Muslim that lives in America, if you want to enlighten me, then please show please show me a scholarly source that says other wise.
"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."
You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.
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Why would I change the label of theif for someone who steals and continues to steal? No rational person would change the word to fit the thief. Likewise, why would I find another term to describe your diatribe? If you dislike the term, then loose the poor sophistry.
That is not a label, but an action. I am merely suggesting for you to expand your vocabulary. Do not take everything so politically. And you are not the theif? The Ottomons were not theives? Let me guess, the Muslims are exempt from being labeled theives because the world belongs to them.
"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."
Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.
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If you agree that it was a strawman, then we can both agree that the red herring has no validity and therefore requires no further attention. This in no way means I agree or disagree, it means the point is not valid.
You agree that the point is a truth? So how is it the the truth is invalid? That doesn't even make sense.
"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."
When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue.
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I do not assert words, although I can assert meanings, but the meanings are not simply asserted given I have used them in general terms. If you have a particular question about a particular instance that you have some confusion over, then please form a valid question and I will do my best to explain or make a correction if I am wrong. As far as I can see, you are attempting to "befuddle" the point I made with an unreasonable request.
I have only seen things that are absolutely devoid of meaning. You understood exactly what I was saying. If you believe that my perspective on history is propoganda, then prove it. Do not just label what I say as a manipulation, but put your money where your mouth is and go a step further.
Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America?
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Complex question: being a typical American does not imply that every American is typical. So me being in America, and me being an American, in no way implies that I am "typical".
Good point
My statements that reflect my usage of the word, "typical", when describing the Zionist drivel you are trying to push off on the forum, is in relation to the "typical" America who elects the leaders who set foriegn policy that reflect a clear "Zionist"/"Israeli" blind support based upon the typical "Zioinst drivel" that is similar to the "drivel" you have tried to use here.
Who are these leaders and what are the alternatives?
The general word usage expressed in my statements with regard to your suppositional nonsense provide the context from which one, with even a cursory education, shoule be able to deduce the meaning/s.
So I guess your education must be very superficial.
I cannot make it any more "clear", and if your sophistry presses in this direction, I can only suspect ignorance on your part or chicanery.
Your contributions so far have revealed sufficient ability, so I must conclude "chicanery". Am I wrong?
How can a somewhat educated man like you be wrong?
What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.
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1) Zionist Lobby? Either you are joking, obtuse, or obfuscating: Groups that are pro Zionist that lobby US politics.
Such as, be specfic?
2) I did not make any reference to the relationship between Zionism and being an American which includes a universal qualifier (no Americans are Zionists..etc, etc) That would leave your question regarding exclusivity in such a relationship as "complex".
Please define what it means it to be an American when you say such things. You have to be a little bit more clear.
3) Your last comment was an incoherent attempt at a red herring. I think I would put up a "at work" sign on that one.
Perhaps you should use your cursory education to take another gander.
"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."
"That was not so hard!?"
Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.
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rubbish. The question given to you was quite clear to you simply practiced your pattern of masterful evasion. I answered for you. Refer back to the actual question (funny...I cannot help but think of your ad hominem concerning reading before talking..seriously, the question was rather straightforward)
I have no clue as to what the hell your blabbing about. Clarify your position, you are veering off into nothingness.
"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."
I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?
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Neither did the sister who brought up historical atrocities commited by the thuggish Israeli regime. But that made no difference when you made an unreasonable demand on her as a requirement to discuss Israeli atrocities. You are now committing the fallacy of special pleading. You can quote your suppositional rubbish about history that fits your twisted, Zioinst world view, without any involvement in the stated events, but this cannot be allowed when it is about the spiritually, and morally bankrupt state of Israel and its dubious creation.
This "sister" used very vivid imagery, I was stating a very reasonable question, and asking her where she recived such "tranparent" imagery. It is very interesting, but I have never heard or seen such things in the west bank. Why are you speaking about spiritually? I thought we were on politics.
Movement: Zionism
Ok
"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"
Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.
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But I can "understand" Palestinian anger, while Israeli agression is unfounded. If someone from another land, gave my land away to another people in another land, I would be "pissed off" to no end, and I doubt I would sit calm and peaceful in some crap hole camp set up by the Israeli regime.
So why are you living in the United States or anywhere else for that matter? These things have occured many times over in history, all over the world.
"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."
There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time.
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No, the manipulation of history is an art that has been brought to its apex by Zioinst and pro zionist thinkers. It is very simple: Someone gave another groups land away, to yet another people, and then these people have the nerve to cry "foul", and then build another holocaust museum to remind everyone that Israelis are really the victims (no I am not a holocaust denier).
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Ottomons conquer that territory? And didn't the Romans take that land away from the Jews? And didn't over half a million Jews live in this land as Palestinians among these Muslims who persecuted them for centuries and forcefully converted them, while raping their women? And what happened to the land and property taken by Muslims from Jews in Islamic countries before the creation of the state of Israel? Why don't you complain about that?
The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things.
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The Israeli nation was founded on people who had nothing to do with the land! What color is your sky?!
So was America. What are you doing there, and why do you call yourself a non-typical American? If you feel so strongly against such actions then you shouldn't be in this country.
"Complex question (a fallacy)."
The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?
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A complex question is a question that has buried in its premise an unargued, unproven assertion. Thats why it is complex.
What assertion would that be, and why is it unproved? Please show me a scholarly source, I am all ears, I would love to see your "rational" side of things.
"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."
The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.
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poor analogy. In this world, nothing has at its bases a single attribute, but a mix. Nothing is purely evil, even Hitler treated his lover with kindess. In this world, when we seek the attributes of "such and such" thing, we must speak in terms of its "predominant" attributes. You cannot simply say, "ok....Israel may have some racism, but so did everyone else". That kind of broad, sweeping generalization is problematic, not to mention commits equivocation fallacies with the word racism and the ideas of race and minority treatment. You cannot just "handwave" your way though that.
Ms. Braun was treated with indifference, their wasn't much kindess there because the man was very callous. This is not a broad sweeping generalization, but a verity. Israel is no more racist than any Muslim regime, or even America. Israel is actually a very liberal society that wants nothing to do with the Palestinians or the territories of 67.
"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""
I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.
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I have made no claim to prophethood. I will say that movements such as Zionism count on the fact that truth can be manipulated by perception, which is why so many Americans are willing to sacrifice the blood of their children for Israeli foreign policy and have no idea they are doing so.
Sure you have, implictly. The truth will always be manipulated, either by your or someone else. I have no issue with what you are saying, I only have a problem with the hypocrisy.
"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."
We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.
"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."
You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.
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I did not comment on the nonsense about the Ottomans. That is what I refered to.
Please show me the scholarly evidence for your reasoning.
Nor have I argued about Palestinian/Saudi relations..come now, this is simply more irrelevant riffraff. And your "virgin" comment is yet another red herring. I think I can let that go, after all, we shall not get into the Jewish Abraham "cuckhold" adventures as portrayed in the TANAKH, or even the glorified tales of the lying, deceptive wife of Issac portrayed as a "bitch" who had to use theft and "covert" deception to steal poor Essau's blessings and inheritance to ensure "Israeli" dominance. Sounds familiar yes? It writes out like the playbook that was used to found Israel. Lets not twist my faith to fit your Zionist preconceptions when you have mud all over your face.
The Koran views the Torah as holy document, so I do not understand why you would call her a bitch. It actually sounds like the playbook used to found anything and everything in human society. Ask the Native Americans, they will tell you.
"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."
Thats the problem.
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No, the fallacy of irrelevancy is the problem.
The problem is that any fact that undermines your position is ignored by you; being one-sided is human nature, so it is not shocking.
"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."
And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree?
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wtf? Did anyone say anything about what influences from western or any other culture is/ or is not in modern society? Did anyone state that there are no degress of influence from any society in another culture? You just evaded again.
I did not evade anything, I merely made the point that you hold Israel to a higher standard than anything else that has ever existed because you have a serious and malicious agenda, which is a fact.
You live in America, you Muslim dildo.
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Nice.
The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking.
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The Russians were defeated. The Russians were defeated because the US armed the rebels to the teeth with weapons, and the US trained them. The Russians pulled out. Perhaps you should put your Zionist revisionist books down and learn to think critically.
I never disagreed with this, I just stated that the damage caused was done by the USSR.
As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.
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The US and British took out a democratically elected leader with the use of terrorism. You are trying to say that because they found some elements in the society to help them, that somehow it makes the larger populace that the elements belong to "guilty by ethnic affiliation", therefore it was there own fault? Your argument is incoherent. And the irrational association of smaller elements (criminal) does not change my point.
If it was incoherent, then why did you even bother answering. I never said it makes the larger populace guilty by ethnic affilition, I just stated that certain tribes were a liability, and there were no innocent parties on any side.
"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."
Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.
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Of course you are. In theory (not saying you do this!), you can come to the US and act like a parasite: vote, influence policy, and suck the US dry all to support a foriegn nation which has no real loyalty to the US.
I pay the same taxes as you, and my loyalty to the US is far stronger than any Muslims. You are latent traitors, you would have no problem supporting Bin Laden or any other Muslim tyrant.
I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!
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No hard feelings.
May God guide you.
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Not your God! God Bless!
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Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 10:15am
Assalamu Alaikum,
It is of paramount importance that we comply with guidelines:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ;PN=1
Also see the warning thread in this section:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073& ;PN=1
Peace
------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 12:24pm
peacemaker wrote:
Assalamu Alaikum,
It is of paramount importance that we comply with guidelines:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ; ;PN=1
Also see the warning thread in this section:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073& ; ; ;PN=1
Peace
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Brother, did you notice that Israeli avatar said
Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs.
Please ban him right away. This doesn't even justify a warning. Please act quickly, min shan Allah!
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 12:37pm
Salaamu Alaykum,
Cassandra, Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Brother Andalus, Thank you for your astute, incisvie analysis!
Brother Israfil, The fact that you say that some of IAvatar's ideas interest you or have merit in any way states volumes about your true attitude towards the Phalasteeneeyeen.
I am considered an Phalasteeneeyeah, and this would make perfect sense to anyone who has Arabic heritage, because my husband's family is from there. Indeed, my dear father-in-law asks me to answer "Jamayeen" when people ask me where I am from. That is Jamayeen, Phalasteen.
To borrow Brother Andalus'es word, it is obfuscation for anyone to say that unless you live there, you don't understand it. This is especially true since the Zionists drove my people out of Phalasteen, so that most Phalasteenee can't say that they have lived on their own land in their own country!
Salaamu Alaykum
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 1:38pm
Herjihad,
In all seriousness your attitude is really starting to piss me off. First off where did I say Israeli Avatar's points "interest me?" If you look back I freggin said:
Avatar made some good points but as I read further his points became flawed through his reaosning as brother Andalus pointed out.
If you cared to give a damn i aslo said:
Israeli Avatar really has no legit argument coming from a personal point of view.
So where in the last TWO post that I made here did I say I am interested in his points?
To the other members I apologize but I'm sick and tired of people getting on the soap box and reading my posts with emotion instead of logic. The fact that you overlooked what I said speaks volumes. If I say that someone makes a "good" point doesn't necessarily mean I agree with them. They simply made a good point. When someone makes a "good" point but ends up being flawed its called (in philosophical terms) a logical fallacy.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 2:03pm
O, I would love for one of you to try to get specific in your criticisms.
Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs.
"What is the subliminal message this woman is sending? The subliminal message is that every square inch of my body is private part, every square inch of it can make you horny. Therefore my entire body is an 'awrat, (lit. pudendum, genital) and I am a sex object from head to toe. People cover their private parts. This woman thinks her entire body is private part. Does this in anyway arouse respect? Only one who thinks with her genital may think so."
And look at the way you treat your children:
http://www.
How exactly is the aforesaid incorrect? All of your invective is extermely malicious, you speak of "logical fallacies," yet you lack SPECFIC cricticisms with scholarly sources. And Andalus has never proven me wrong, he has just danced around the facts, and has taken it upon himself to cry "Jewish conspiracy" or "Zionist propoganda," as if we all have a specific meeting place where we decide all of these facts, as many of you and your confounded brethren spipulate so vehemently, and fervently. I have never seen any of you combat my words with any scholarly sources or veracious reasoning. It is depressing to see all of you like this, infected with this diasease.
Note from Moderation:do not link to anti-Islamic sites which are polemical in nature. abide by the forum guidlines. This is a warning (officially)
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 2:55pm
Israeli Avatar,
Sorry to tell you, those pictures do not represent Islam. They represent the practices of the Shiite sect. There are many women in Islam that treat their children with love and would not inflict wounds on them. To be honest the faithfreedom website is more like a slap in the face to intellectual discussion. Pointing out specific cultural practices in certain sectarian groups does not necessaitate that everyone in the religion does that. There are Christia n parents who send their children to "Jesus Camp" to pray to a paper cut out of George W. Bush. It's not psychologically healthy to send your kids to a camp to "speak tongues" at age 5. Similarly we know its unhealthy for Jews to drink and have extra-martial affairs. Of course all these individuals do these things but we must refrain from ascribing the actions of individuals with the general population.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 4:08pm
I agree, that's all you had to do. I appreciate points being cleared up. But since when were Shiites not considered Muslim? And what about the honor killings, and the executions done by Sunnis against Shiites, and so-called apostates? What about the mass executions that occur in the middle east by the hands of Muslims against other muslims over religious issues?
What about the protests that were done by Palestinians and other Muslims all over the middle-east, protesting the charecterization of Mohammed in a violent manner with violence, and obvious belligrent behaviors? Why does it seem that your civilization is stuck in the past? And even when I think of the past of your civilization, the middle ages for example, one can clearly see that your people were more open-minded and eccelctic back then. What about the Israeli soildiers that have been torn asunder by Palestinians with bare hands, and Jewish children that were chopped into little peices after being raped? I understand that these people believe in reciprocity, but why kill children in such atrocious ways, and why mutilate soildiers? Why don't you just execute them by hanging or something like that if you believe them to be evil and yourselves to be good? I understand that there are victims on both sides, but I do not believe that it is a coincidence or the "fault of the west" that almost every Islamic nation is a place replete with fear, violence, murder, terrorism, oppresion, propoganda, and extreme anti-semitism. Maybe these things exist elsewhere, but not to such a high degree as you would see in Afganistan or Iran, even without the Americans and the Russians.
Many people say that the Palestinians were living in prosperity before Jewish rule, but I have seen Turkish prisons, and have read many accounts of life before the State of Israel, and I would not consider this a paradise or a land of prosperity. The Islamic world has a high rate of poverty, a lack of education, and a serious problem with violence. This is not recent, this process started in the middle ages when Islam threw logic out the window. It seems that Islam appeals to emotions rather than the mind.
Any criticism is met with hostility and brutality to the point where people are labeled insane and uninteligent for having antithetical perspectives. It is as if the Islamic civilization has turned into a horde of inquisitors. I know that there is a group of you that are human beings, and I embrace this group with my heart. It is difficult to see all of this violence and anger coming from the middle east, and to conclude that all of this is the product of poverty and western corruption. Osama Bin Laden was a member of the Saudi royal house, and the very rich, in Muslim countries seem, as if they are more dangerous and more angry than the poor. This intertwined with the fact that many of these people were involved,financially speaking, with western nations, makes me all the more angrier. These people abhor and condemn the same nations that provide them income while starving their own people and blaming it on the west. It is appaling, to think that they call fourth for Jihad, yet how many of their children are fighting these wars with their bare hands? And how many children of regular people are dying every day because these oligarchs want to fill their pockets with treasure? It seems that spirituality for many Muslims is a situational phenonmenon that is only advantageous if it is politically, personally, or financially rewarding.
I understand that the world is not devoid of such things, and I never said that it is not, there are also Jewish extermists, I was one of them at one point or another. All of this drama, in the modern era, is coming from the middle east. It is as if you are trying to restore your former glory and knock down these skyscrapers to "even out the playing feild," where your people thereafter, being the "midgets" that they are, can finnally be on an equal level with the former giants that dominated the sky; it seems as if this is intension. No matter how many conscessions that we seem to make it is never enough. A Muslim leader was quoted as saying "that the world will be liberated from the Jews to the point where every tree will be free from them." What is that you all really want? Do you want us to be Muslim? To be like you? To convert to your religion and be as miserable as you? Because we are not like you, we cannot worship God in the manner that you worship God. I have no problem with your people or religion, just do not shove it in my face, and blame every Jew for what happened in 1948 or in Medina with Mohammed. You tell me not to generalize, why not tell your brethren the same things when they enunciate blanket statements against the Jews, or the west? This is utter hyporcisy, if you want me to be civil and open-minded, I expect the same of your brothers.
All that I have heard from the begining were anti-Semetic remarks, catalyzed and conditioned by propogandistic "verities" in their countries of origin, and a whole bunch of hypocricy. I do not disagree with all the criticisms, it is the propoganda, and hypocrisy that drives me to the beaking point. Any so-called fact that was heard through the "grape vine," was a product of biased literature, or something your brothers just make up because of the blind hatred in their hearts. I do not hide the facts, I told you, if you do not believe my words, if you want evidence, go to Israel and see for yourself. Live with a 100 families on both sides and then come to a conclusion! My intention is to elucidate the facts and understand the positions and the mistakes on both sides transparently.
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Posted By: Slot
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 5:00pm
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
I agree, that's all you had to do. I appreciate points being cleared up. But since when were Shiites not considered Muslim? And what about the honor killings, and the executions done by Sunnis against Shiites, and so-called apostates? What about the mass executions that occur in the middle east by the hands of Muslims against other muslims over religious issues?
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I can sum up the answer to all of your questions in one phrase.
Do not judge Islam by its followers, read its beliefs unaltered by human hands and then attempt to say all that you are saying.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 7:34pm
Israfil wrote:
Herjihad,
In all seriousness your attitude is really starting to piss me off. First off where did I say Israeli Avatar's points "interest me?" If you look back I freggin said:
Avatar made some good points but as I read further his points became flawed through his reaosning as brother Andalus pointed out.
If you cared to give a damn i aslo said:
Israeli Avatar really has no legit argument coming from a personal point of view.
So where in the last TWO post that I made here did I say I am interested in his points?
To the other members I apologize but I'm sick and tired of people getting on the soap box and reading my posts with emotion instead of logic. The fact that you overlooked what I said speaks volumes. If I say that someone makes a "good" point doesn't necessarily mean I agree with them. They simply made a good point. When someone makes a "good" point but ends up being flawed its called (in philosophical terms) a logical fallacy.
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I mistakenly said: Brother Israfil, The fact that you say that some of IAvatar's ideas interest you or have merit in any way states volumes about your true attitude towards the Phalasteeneeyeen.
However, I still say:
To borrow Brother Andalus'es word, it is obfuscation for anyone to say that unless you live there, you don't understand it. This is especially true since the Zionists drove my people out of Phalasteen, so that most Phalasteenee can't say that they have lived on their own land in their own country!
You have repeatedly said that the Phalasteeneeyeen who don't live there don't count, and you are wrong. What an effective way to silence a people and the truth: Drive most of them out, build a wall around the truth, and say that those who aren't there have no idea what's going on.
AstagfirrAllah. I won't forget that you drove Mishmish away based on this same method you are employing now with me.
Salaamu Alaykum, Brother.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 10:54pm
Herjihad,
Your tireless rant is quite annoying. Using bold colors to prove your point of view is quite childish and it is difficult for me to be cordial with you when, all you do is rant about what I say. Anybody leaving IslamiCity is of their own doing. Nobody has any virtual gun pointed to their head and making them leave so, singling me out saying I drove someone away is moot. I cannot make someone leave because it is impossible over the internet. I can make someone desire to leave but it all amounts to their choice for leaving.
Thank you for also choosing my words for me. I never said those who are not in the Palestinian region do not count, I was merely saying those not of that nationality/ethnic group cannot understand another group [who shares an entirely different ethnic and national status] claim to "know" another groups suffering. It would be an insult to me for some priviledged white woman to claim she knows the Black struggle if all her life she was not exposed to nothing but a silver spoon in her mouth. I'm sure Palestinians would agree that a Palestinian who grows up in America and only knows American lifestyle cannot claim to know the suffering of the Palestinian people who live in that region [Ramallah, Gaza, etc]. I'm similarly critical of blacks here who act like they know the African struggle as if they were there. What I was trying to tell you specifically was you may identify with the Palestinian suffering through familiar ties [i.e. marriage, in-laws] but that doesn't necessitate that you know their pain. You are not them. I believe unless you've grown up in that region and have firsthand account of the events there how can you act like you truly know the suffering there? As a woman, perhaps you can identitfy with the Palestinians who have suffered discrimination under Israeli rule, but as far as I'm concerned that is about all you can identify. I'm still trying to figure out this method I'm using to drive people away. If you cannot handle people with opinions then maybe having discourse here is not your cup of tea.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 3:50am
Salaamu Alaykum,
Israeli Avatar's posts are filled with disgust towards all Muslims. If his claims are true of loving certain kinds of Muslims, then he should love Brother Andalus and I because we both abhore oppression of any kind. He posts examples, which I fortunately didn't see, but can imagine from the responses to it, which are awful, the worst behavior of any Muslim citizen turned criminal and ignores all the beautiful things Islaam has done and will continue to do.
For example, two of the people I admire most are in reality occupiers of the Phalasteeneeyee land, and yet, I wouldn't have them leave. They are Uri Averny and Daniel Dworsky. Uri would be a great leader of Israel and would be able to bring peace to both sides if the side of evil in Israel were not completely supported with America's weaponry and money. If anyone points out anyone's lack of belief, we need to remember that Allah, The Guide, might choose to change that at any time and this is a political discussion.
But I sure would like for my father-in-law to be able to go home for more than just a visit. And even the visits are too much for an older gentleman without much money. It is so tiring to go through Israeli border checks and takes hours and hours and you can't plan for the time or know if they will detain you or any member of your group.
Need I remind members not to swear so much? Well, here it is anyway. Stop swearing guys. When we use bigger words like "obfuscate" -- I just love that word Brother Andalus as it applies and will continue to apply to IAvatar and the likes of him -- instead of smaller words like wt... and fr...
That silver spoon stuff is nonsense.
Muslims are required to be empathetic. We cannot look at someone else's suffering with arrogrance or superiority. We must approach it as all things in life with humility and piety. (I know this not only because it is intuitive that it be so, but also because I have heard some learned sheikhs lecture on loving our fellow Muslims and fellow human beings in such a manner.) Ameen.
Salaams
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 7:54am
I am just paranoid and concentrating on the negative? The negative is always the most prominent, but I think you fail to see that I am doing what many of your brothers do to my civilization. My problem is never the criticism because you guys are correct many of times when you are not espousing paranoid political nonsense about Jewish conspiracies and "Zionist propoganda." Maybe I am just pessimistic, maybe there is plenty of goodness that I do not see, but there is still a myriad of terror and horror that sticks out like a sore thumb. Do I generalize? Sure, but at a certain point, one is forced to generalize. At the same time, I do no more and no less than any one of you when you talk about the Jewish people. I read such hatefull and biased things, when there are millions of Jews (and that is a lot when considering the size of the population) that have radically different views from myself, and are unrealitically optomistic, and support many of you while you call them "filthy pigs" and "dogs." It is just a nightmare. Once again, it is not all your criticism against myself or the state of Israel that is invalid, it is the lack the lack of criticism against your reflections, and the hypocristy that is flawed.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 8:18am
Israeli Avatar's posts are filled with disgust towards all Muslims. If his claims are true of loving certain kinds of Muslims, then he should love Brother Andalus and I because we both abhore oppression of any kind. He posts examples, which I fortunately didn't see, but can imagine from the responses to it, which are awful, the worst behavior of any Muslim citizen turned criminal and ignores all the beautiful things Islaam has done and will continue to do.
Enlighten me and give me examples of this beauty. Are you speaking of the inner peace that Islam provides? Can this not be overshadowed by the nefariousness that one clearly sees when looking at the middle east?
For example, two of the people I admire most are in reality occupiers of the Phalasteeneeyee land, and yet, I wouldn't have them leave. They are Uri Averny and Daniel Dworsky. Uri would be a great leader of Israel and would be able to bring peace to both sides if the side of evil in Israel were not completely supported with America's weaponry and money. If anyone points out anyone's lack of belief, we need to remember that Allah, The Guide, might choose to change that at any time and this is a political discussion.
You are saying I "obfuscate"? You must have woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. What you are speaking of will lead to a peace, a peace where Israelies will rest in peace. If Israel will not be supported by American money, it will cease to exist. Like many countries throughout the world, Israel depends on external support. This is not a novel occurrence, nor is this something that shocks me, this is just a reality that has always been, and will always be. What you are speaking about will destroy an entire group of people, this cannot and will not happen. Israel is America's greatest ally, and will always be so.
But I sure would like for my father-in-law to be able to go home for more than just a visit. And even the visits are too much for an older gentleman without much money. It is so tiring to go through Israeli border checks and takes hours and hours and you can't plan for the time or know if they will detain you or any member of your group.
You know, when I see Palestinians violating the check points, I always call it in, and make sure that they are arrested. I would rather have you tired and pissed off than my children dead. Thank you very much.
Need I remind members not to swear so much? Well, here it is anyway. Stop swearing guys. When we use bigger words like "obfuscate" -- I just love that word Brother Andalus as it applies and will continue to apply to IAvatar and the likes of him -- instead of smaller words like wt... and fr...
Of course you love such terms when they are spoken of the opposition, it is just human nature.
That silver spoon stuff is nonsense.
Muslims are required to be empathetic. We cannot look at someone else's suffering with arrogrance or superiority. We must approach it as all things in life with humility and piety. (I know this not only because it is intuitive that it be so, but also because I have heard some learned sheikhs lecture on loving our fellow Muslims and fellow human beings in such a manner.) Ameen.
That I agree with, God bless!
Salaams
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 2:10pm
My argument is not legitimate because it is coming from a personal point of view? First of all, what perspective is non-personal? Second, there is no one charecteristic that defines a perspective, there are many. This is completely foolish, to suggest that this is just coming from a personal perspective; such ideas are devoid of reason, and true meaning.
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 August 2007 at 12:41am
Most of your reply here is juvenile �quibbling�, tit for tat responses that only further expose your ignorance and lack of maturity. It is not worth spending any more time on, as what can a person do when, even after pointing to the moon, the fool refuses to look in the referred direction. A fool cannot be made to look at the moon, he can only be given the direction, and it is up to him to look. If the fool still babbles about the ground, then nothing can be done.
Here is an example: [andalus]
ad hominem. Are you showing your true colors? hmmm
[/quote]
To which you made such a brilliant reply:
Israeli wrote:
Just like your brothers and sisters.
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You have lost your credibility.
The tautological drivel you have attempted to use to maintain your sophomoric reply to sister "herjihad" and to try and save face to my pointing out of your numerous fallacies and mistakes says volumes about you.
You have fooled no one.
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
Andalus wrote:
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic
commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.
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ad hominem. Are you show your true colors? hmmm
Just like your brothers and sisters.
"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."
What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.
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Trying to befuddle a point through mere semantics speaks volumes of the chicanery you are trying to smear the thread with.
I am trying to understand what the hell your trying to say actually.
As for the red herring you threw out about the Ottomans: suppositional zionist drivel. The typical American lacky will take your Zionist misinformation as fact, but this is hardly an audience made up of the typical American.
Yes, the typical Muslim that lives in America, if you want to enlighten me, then please show please show me a scholarly source that says other wise.
"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."
You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.
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Why would I change the label of theif for someone who steals and continues to steal? No rational person would change the word to fit the thief. Likewise, why would I find another term to describe your diatribe? If you dislike the term, then loose the poor sophistry.
That is not a label, but an action. I am merely suggesting for you to expand your vocabulary. Do not take everything so politically. And you are not the theif? The Ottomons were not theives? Let me guess, the Muslims are exempt from being labeled theives because the world belongs to them.
"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."
Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.
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If you agree that it was a strawman, then we can both agree that the red herring has no validity and therefore requires no further attention. This in no way means I agree or disagree, it means the point is not valid.
You agree that the point is a truth? So how is it the the truth is invalid? That doesn't even make sense.
"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."
When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue.
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I do not assert words, although I can assert meanings, but the meanings are not simply asserted given I have used them in general terms. If you have a particular question about a particular instance that you have some confusion over, then please form a valid question and I will do my best to explain or make a correction if I am wrong. As far as I can see, you are attempting to "befuddle" the point I made with an unreasonable request.
I have only seen things that are absolutely devoid of meaning. You understood exactly what I was saying. If you believe that my perspective on history is propoganda, then prove it. Do not just label what I say as a manipulation, but put your money where your mouth is and go a step further.
Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America?
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Complex question: being a typical American does not imply that every American is typical. So me being in America, and me being an American, in no way implies that I am "typical".
Good point
My statements that reflect my usage of the word, "typical", when describing the Zionist drivel you are trying to push off on the forum, is in relation to the "typical" America who elects the leaders who set foriegn policy that reflect a clear "Zionist"/"Israeli" blind support based upon the typical "Zioinst drivel" that is similar to the "drivel" you have tried to use here.
Who are these leaders and what are the alternatives?
The general word usage expressed in my statements with regard to your suppositional nonsense provide the context from which one, with even a cursory education, shoule be able to deduce the meaning/s.
So I guess your education must be very superficial.
I cannot make it any more "clear", and if your sophistry presses in this direction, I can only suspect ignorance on your part or chicanery.
Your contributions so far have revealed sufficient ability, so I must conclude "chicanery". Am I wrong?
How can a somewhat educated man like you be wrong?
What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.
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1) Zionist Lobby? Either you are joking, obtuse, or obfuscating: Groups that are pro Zionist that lobby US politics.
Such as, be specfic?
2) I did not make any reference to the relationship between Zionism and being an American which includes a universal qualifier (no Americans are Zionists..etc, etc) That would leave your question regarding exclusivity in such a relationship as "complex".
Please define what it means it to be an American when you say such things. You have to be a little bit more clear.
3) Your last comment was an incoherent attempt at a red herring. I think I would put up a "at work" sign on that one.
Perhaps you should use your cursory education to take another gander.
"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."
"That was not so hard!?"
Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.
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rubbish. The question given to you was quite clear to you simply practiced your pattern of masterful evasion. I answered for you. Refer back to the actual question (funny...I cannot help but think of your ad hominem concerning reading before talking..seriously, the question was rather straightforward)
I have no clue as to what the hell your blabbing about. Clarify your position, you are veering off into nothingness.
"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."
I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?
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Neither did the sister who brought up historical atrocities commited by the thuggish Israeli regime. But that made no difference when you made an unreasonable demand on her as a requirement to discuss Israeli atrocities. You are now committing the fallacy of special pleading. You can quote your suppositional rubbish about history that fits your twisted, Zioinst world view, without any involvement in the stated events, but this cannot be allowed when it is about the spiritually, and morally bankrupt state of Israel and its dubious creation.
This "sister" used very vivid imagery, I was stating a very reasonable question, and asking her where she recived such "tranparent" imagery. It is very interesting, but I have never heard or seen such things in the west bank. Why are you speaking about spiritually? I thought we were on politics.
Movement: Zionism
Ok
"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"
Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.
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But I can "understand" Palestinian anger, while Israeli agression is unfounded. If someone from another land, gave my land away to another people in another land, I would be "pissed off" to no end, and I doubt I would sit calm and peaceful in some crap hole camp set up by the Israeli regime.
So why are you living in the United States or anywhere else for that matter? These things have occured many times over in history, all over the world.
"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."
There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time.
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No, the manipulation of history is an art that has been brought to its apex by Zioinst and pro zionist thinkers. It is very simple: Someone gave another groups land away, to yet another people, and then these people have the nerve to cry "foul", and then build another holocaust museum to remind everyone that Israelis are really the victims (no I am not a holocaust denier).
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Ottomons conquer that territory? And didn't the Romans take that land away from the Jews? And didn't over half a million Jews live in this land as Palestinians among these Muslims who persecuted them for centuries and forcefully converted them, while raping their women? And what happened to the land and property taken by Muslims from Jews in Islamic countries before the creation of the state of Israel? Why don't you complain about that?
The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things.
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The Israeli nation was founded on people who had nothing to do with the land! What color is your sky?!
So was America. What are you doing there, and why do you call yourself a non-typical American? If you feel so strongly against such actions then you shouldn't be in this country.
"Complex question (a fallacy)."
The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?
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A complex question is a question that has buried in its premise an unargued, unproven assertion. Thats why it is complex.
What assertion would that be, and why is it unproved? Please show me a scholarly source, I am all ears, I would love to see your "rational" side of things.
"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."
The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.
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poor analogy. In this world, nothing has at its bases a single attribute, but a mix. Nothing is purely evil, even Hitler treated his lover with kindess. In this world, when we seek the attributes of "such and such" thing, we must speak in terms of its "predominant" attributes. You cannot simply say, "ok....Israel may have some racism, but so did everyone else". That kind of broad, sweeping generalization is problematic, not to mention commits equivocation fallacies with the word racism and the ideas of race and minority treatment. You cannot just "handwave" your way though that.
Ms. Braun was treated with indifference, their wasn't much kindess there because the man was very callous. This is not a broad sweeping generalization, but a verity. Israel is no more racist than any Muslim regime, or even America. Israel is actually a very liberal society that wants nothing to do with the Palestinians or the territories of 67.
"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""
I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.
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I have made no claim to prophethood. I will say that movements such as Zionism count on the fact that truth can be manipulated by perception, which is why so many Americans are willing to sacrifice the blood of their children for Israeli foreign policy and have no idea they are doing so.
Sure you have, implictly. The truth will always be manipulated, either by your or someone else. I have no issue with what you are saying, I only have a problem with the hypocrisy.
"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."
We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.
"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."
You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.
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I did not comment on the nonsense about the Ottomans. That is what I refered to.
Please show me the scholarly evidence for your reasoning.
Nor have I argued about Palestinian/Saudi relations..come now, this is simply more irrelevant riffraff. And your "virgin" comment is yet another red herring. I think I can let that go, after all, we shall not get into the Jewish Abraham "cuckhold" adventures as portrayed in the TANAKH, or even the glorified tales of the lying, deceptive wife of Issac portrayed as a "bitch" who had to use theft and "covert" deception to steal poor Essau's blessings and inheritance to ensure "Israeli" dominance. Sounds familiar yes? It writes out like the playbook that was used to found Israel. Lets not twist my faith to fit your Zionist preconceptions when you have mud all over your face.
The Koran views the Torah as holy document, so I do not understand why you would call her a bitch. It actually sounds like the playbook used to found anything and everything in human society. Ask the Native Americans, they will tell you.
"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."
Thats the problem.
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No, the fallacy of irrelevancy is the problem.
The problem is that any fact that undermines your position is ignored by you; being one-sided is human nature, so it is not shocking.
"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."
And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree?
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wtf? Did anyone say anything about what influences from western or any other culture is/ or is not in modern society? Did anyone state that there are no degress of influence from any society in another culture? You just evaded again.
I did not evade anything, I merely made the point that you hold Israel to a higher standard than anything else that has ever existed because you have a serious and malicious agenda, which is a fact.
You live in America, you Muslim dildo.
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Nice.
The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking.
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The Russians were defeated. The Russians were defeated because the US armed the rebels to the teeth with weapons, and the US trained them. The Russians pulled out. Perhaps you should put your Zionist revisionist books down and learn to think critically.
I never disagreed with this, I just stated that the damage caused was done by the USSR.
As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.
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The US and British took out a democratically elected leader with the use of terrorism. You are trying to say that because they found some elements in the society to help them, that somehow it makes the larger populace that the elements belong to "guilty by ethnic affiliation", therefore it was there own fault? Your argument is incoherent. And the irrational association of smaller elements (criminal) does not change my point.
If it was incoherent, then why did you even bother answering. I never said it makes the larger populace guilty by ethnic affilition, I just stated that certain tribes were a liability, and there were no innocent parties on any side.
"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."
Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.
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Of course you are. In theory (not saying you do this!), you can come to the US and act like a parasite: vote, influence policy, and suck the US dry all to support a foriegn nation which has no real loyalty to the US.
I pay the same taxes as you, and my loyalty to the US is far stronger than any Muslims. You are latent traitors, you would have no problem supporting Bin Laden or any other Muslim tyrant.
I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!
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No hard feelings.
May God guide you.
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Not your God! God Bless!
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------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 13 August 2007 at 2:46pm
Most of your reply here is juvenile �quibbling�, tit for tat responses that only further expose your ignorance and lack of maturity. It is not worth spending any more time on, as what can a person do when, even after pointing to the moon, the fool refuses to look in the referred direction. A fool cannot be made to look at the moon, he can only be given the direction, and it is up to him to look. If the fool still babbles about the ground, then nothing can be done.
Now your just getting blatant, and once again you are dancing around the facts. Stop making excuses for your cowardly and lazy nature. If you do not wish to continue this debate then just say so.
A fool like you can definately be made to worship the moon!
Here is an example: [andalus]
ad hominem. Are you showing your true colors? hmmm
[/quote]
To which you made such a brilliant reply:
Israeli wrote:
Just like your brothers and sisters.
| b | |
You have lost your credibility.
Since when did a Zionist like me ever have it in your eyes to begin with? Look who is obfuscating now!
The tautological drivel you have attempted to use to maintain your sophomoric reply to sister "herjihad" and to try and save face to my pointing out of your numerous fallacies and mistakes says volumes about you.
I debunked all of your ridiculous responses in totality, you have done nothing. You have presented no scholarly sources, and all you did was espouse a whole bunch of paranoya, and delusion.
You have fooled no one.
And you have managed to fool many with your proganda, my intention was never to fool anyone. You couldn't even address any one of my reponses to your imaginary corrections of my logic, and argument. Instead you take the easy way out and speak of this credibility that I lost with all of this fervent mendacity when I didn't have it to begin with in your peanut sized brain because of your inability to think like a rational human being! All you do is yell trickery, deceit, and "Zionist propoganda" without supporting any of your statements with logic and scholarly sources. Before you debate with me, get an education!
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 August 2007 at 11:53pm
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
Most of your reply here is juvenile �quibbling�, tit for tat responses that only further expose your ignorance and lack of maturity. It is not worth spending any more time on, as what can a person do when, even after pointing to the moon, the fool refuses to look in the referred direction. A fool cannot be made to look at the moon, he can only be given the direction, and it is up to him to look. If the fool still babbles about the ground, then nothing can be done.
Now your just getting blatant, and once again you are dancing around the facts. Stop making excuses for your cowardly and lazy nature. If you do not wish to continue this debate then just say so.
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There is no debate, you have not been able to keep up with basics. You have been "quibelling". There are no facts you have presented, you are so desperate and ignorant of basic rhetoric, you have the nerve to demand that your "strawman" be a valid point. WHo is being cowardly?
A fool like you can definately be made to worship the moon!
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Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts".
Here is an example: [andalus]
ad hominem. Are you showing your true colors? hmmm
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To which you made such a brilliant reply:
Israeli wrote:
Just like your brothers and sisters.
| b | |
You have lost your credibility.
Since when did a Zionist like me ever have it in your eyes to begin with? Look who is obfuscating now!
[/quote]
Irrelevant. (talk about a cowardly dance, you really danced around my example of your juvenile nature!)
The tautological drivel you have attempted to use to maintain your sophomoric reply to sister "herjihad" and to try and save face to my pointing out of your numerous fallacies and mistakes says volumes about you.
I debunked all of your ridiculous responses in totality, you have done nothing. You have presented no scholarly sources, and all you did was espouse a whole bunch of paranoya, and delusion.
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All you can do is howl and write in large fonts and make claims. The truth is, you did not ever reply to any of my points of your huge blunders in your contribution. (by the way, you did not offer any "scholarly" sources, just tit for tat drivel that amounted to you "disagreeing"). As I have said before, how pathetic and ignorant you are to agree that you committed a fallacy, and the demand that it be valid. LOL......PATHETIC.
You have fooled no one.
And you have managed to fool many with your proganda, my intention was never to fool anyone. You couldn't even address any one of my reponses to your imaginary corrections of my logic, and argument. Instead you take the easy way out and speak of this credibility that I lost with all of this fervent mendacity when I didn't have it to begin with in your peanut sized brain because of your inability to think like a rational human being! All you do is yell trickery, deceit, and "Zionist propoganda" without supporting any of your statements with logic and scholarly sources. Before you debate with me, get an education!
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My statements were about the poor logic in your unsupported claims. You just kept on and on and on with drivel ad nausium! The point was about "logic"..Duh!
You are so out of gas.
I mean, lets look at your proud example of a poorly written zioinst "pitty party" piece...lets look at your "scholarly" sources..
1. Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton & Co., 1986), p. 81.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Pro-Islamic http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews ," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.
3. Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
4. Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
5. Bat Yeor, pp. 185-86, 191, 194.
6. Norman Stillman, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Arab Lands, (PA: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1979), pp. 59, 284.
7. Maurice Roumani, The Case of the http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, (Tel Aviv: World Organization of http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries, 1977), pp. 26-27.
8. Bat Ye'or, p. 61
9. G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam," Viator, (1971), p. 369.
10. Bernard Lewis, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Islam, (NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984) p. 158.
11. Middle Eastern Studies, (1971), p. 232.
12. New York Times, (February 19, 1947).
13. Roumani, pp. 30-31.
This list looks like the whos-who at a Jewish wedding.
Are you that arrogant and ignorant that you really believe that this is a real historical piece worthy of any scholarly trust? Are you that out of your mind? Seriously. Pathetic.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 3:25pm
1. Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton & Co., 1986), p. 81.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Pro-Islamic http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews ," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.
3. Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
4. Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
5. Bat Yeor, pp. 185-86, 191, 194.
6. Norman Stillman, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Arab Lands, (PA: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1979), pp. 59, 284.
7. Maurice Roumani, The Case of the http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, (Tel Aviv: World Organization of http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries, 1977), pp. 26-27.
8. Bat Ye'or, p. 61
9. G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam," Viator, (1971), p. 369.
10. Bernard Lewis, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Islam, (NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984) p. 158.
11. Middle Eastern Studies, (1971), p. 232.
12. New York Times, (February 19, 1947).
13. Roumani, pp. 30-31.
This list looks like the whos-who at a Jewish wedding.
That was really funny.........
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 7:55pm
Somebody who asserts the error of another's commentary should really be more specific. You are talking about "tit for tat drivel," but how can anybody reply adequetly with sources and address what your are saying when all of your statements are based on prejudicial perspectives, generalizations, propoganda and paranoya, and have no sources whatsoever to support them directly or indirectly? No self-respecting scholar, Jewish or non, would ever support the type of paranoya and insanity you propose, and the hypocrisy that you so fervently enunciate. You called one of the matriarchs of Judaism a "bitch," and you think that I should analyze and address your statements? You are an idiot and if you were in close proximity, you wouldn't say these things.My advice, for you, is to stop running your filthy-camel lips.
Look at your last lines, what was the rationale for that? Clear evidence of what I have been saying all along; your hypocrisy and prejudice is an abomination. What planet are you from? I counter "cursory" reasoning and generalizations infused with paranoya, with indifferent responses of a general nature that are meant to "break the ice," and to soften up your thick skull because you clearly cannot establish any proper argument. How is it that you live in the USA and you have no access to libraries of any sort? You are deriding my sources, or "lack thereof"? At least I have sources and reason supported by objective literature, you've presented nothing to counter anything, your indifference towards the sources I had, in regards to the atrocities Muslim's commited, is based on the fact that some authors are Jewish (without actually knowing anything about them), and essentially everything you have to say is of a propogandistic nature, conditioned by your little Muslim microcosm. All of your statements are based on paranoya, "quibling" about imaginary "Zionist conspiracies." No other scholarly source that I present to you would really matter anyway because you are a person that lives in a cold, dark, and deep closet. You are like a Palestinian "juvenile" who throws some stones, and claims to win a battle, when in realty he losses the war, and will never have any sort of realistic dominance; your comment about the font I used is a testament to that fact. You claim that I am mistaken, and yet you are not specific, you have no sources to support your words directly or indirectly, you have nothing but your fowl tongue. You clearly are a hypocrtite and a delusional anti-semite and before you take it upon yourself to utter any word, maybe you should do some serious reading, and cut the mokey stuff out. You are not in the right country to have such a mentality.
"Are you that arrogant and ignorant that you really believe that this is a real historical piece worthy of any scholarly trust? Are you that out of your mind? Seriously. Pathetic."
You are making Judgements based on the names, you arrogant monkey! LOL!
And the fact that you worship the moon was not made up by me. That was a reference to the alleged pagan roots of your religion, ironically you are the one who started this topic of the moon. I guess this "sacrilage" is still in the back of your minds, you ignorant ape! Do some reading! Google it! I merely found it comical that you would use such an example when the worship of the moon was a major part of pagan history of Arabia, and/or the reference the "majesty" of the moon. It is clear that now you are a victim of a similar sort of blindness, as far as fervency is concerned, of a political and philosophical nature in regards to the State of Israel and the west; I am not speaking of your contemporary theological perspective, I don't really care much about it, I am talking about your flawed and abberant politics, and logic.
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 8:46pm
"Irrelevant. (talk about a cowardly dance, you really danced around my example of your juvenile nature!)"
I point out the contradictory nature of your argument, and you sideswipe that fact by speaking of a refrence to an insulting epithet , or "juvenile." Why would I adress your morbidly opinionated statements when I can address more important things like your contradictory comments, and your mendacity? You are a lazy and cowardly degenerate, and you have to stop dancing around the facts. You cannot make such moronic statements while knowing that your argument is a paradox. You say that I do not address your argument but, how can you say such a thing when you can't even admit that you are a walking oxymoron? You are the one that cannot admit that he is wrong and is commiting the same vain travesty, continuously; you are the juvenile.
Your problem is that you make very extreme, and outrageous statements, and you do nothing to support them via delineation of any rational reasoning, or any allusions to any scholarly sources that would counter my historical interpretation. And then you assume that I have to analyze your ranting. You must be joking, you make yourself look even more frivolous by alluding to your anti-Semetic mentality. You circumvent important issues that establish the fact that criminality pervades every single political entity to a degree that is even higher than Israel's, look at Russia for example, where 1500 Chechnyans go missing every week; yet, you do not complain about that because Russia is completely ignorant of criticism, and it supplies Muslim countries with weapons. Why the obsession with the Jews and Israel when so many more horrendous crimes are being commited against Muslims by your own countries, and by other western nations? Are you going to say that the latter is also irrelevent? So anything that doesn't fit your agenda or defame the state of Israel is of no consequence to a "genius" of your caliber? Are things only relevent for discussion if they do not pose a threat to your feeble arguments? How can anybody that has a brain allude to the idea that Israel has the highest degree of corruption and criminality and is the only country that was predominantly built upon lies, when most countries in the world were built upon mendacity, treachery, and plundering? You live in the USA for God sakes! You need to take some history courses before you make such slow-minded deductions. You assume that Israel has the highest degree of criminality without supporting such an unfounded idea. At the same time, you do not speak of the sinister nature of your own people's reflection, and you claim that our side has the most culpability, a moronic and ignorant idea. You say that Israel should have the moral high ground here, while everybody else deviates so viciously, you have a ridiculous, one-sided and even inhuman perspective on what Israel should be and how it should act.
You ignore the violent history of your ridiculous civilization, and the corruption of the Ottomons. You claim that when Palestinians lived under the Ottomons, they lived in prosperity, while ignoring the fact that the idea of the prosperity of the west is seriously different from the Islamic prosperity of retrospection, and even the modern day. How can anybody address any of these things? How can people speak to you when you assume that I, because I am a Jew, drain this society of something that you do not require or extract, and that I, after executing such actions or extractions, do not allocate differential resources into that very same economy? How exactly do people live without reciprocity, and how is that you manage to avoid conspiratorial agendas (unlike the Jews), while at the same time being exempt from the economic perturbations and situations that commit all of humanity? I am asking these questions because you imply some sort of philosophical and ideological innocence and political superiority from your reasoning, where you do not abide by the same rules as any other human being living in this world, and you have no need for the same things that Jews apparently require, as if we are all a single mentality, and you are some sort of a supernal manifestation. Are you funded by terrorist organizations? Do you live in some sort of a Muslim bubble? How do you contend that the Jews cause more harm, in American society, and essentially drain the resources, while you do no such things? Is your ignorance towards Islamic extermism and it's support via your moral and idealogical stagnation and your direct approbation of deviant entities that target civilians not tantamount to the ignorance of Israeli "transgressions" and indescretions commited by Jews? Are you not just a hypocrite that has flown to one side and that refuses to gander at both the yin and yang? Your contentions are pure paranoya and insanity, there is no way to speak to you normally. Though, I will tell you that if you were in my neighborhood, you would never speak like that; you would have a smile on your face everyday, and I am sure that you hold your tongue in your own outside world.
Speak to me when you have the ability to present some sort of a logical, consistent, and accurate argument. Once again, get an education.
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Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 12:22pm
Assalamu Alaikum
Although I have not read all of the posts in this thread, I have read enough to say that the back and forth biting remarks made here must stop. I see parties on both sides belittling the other. All this does it lead the discussion more and more down a negative spiral with nothing good coming from it. This site is a means to educate those who are interested in learning about Islam and one of the rules is that those who come here...no matter their religion...are to do so in a manner which is kind even if the subject matter is one that is controversial. Using words that are demeaning is not appropriate and will not be tolerated (INSHALLAH at least not on my watch ).
If all that is left to say on this topic are remarks that are demeaning as a means to tear down the other person(s), then maybe it is simply time to terminate this topic. I will leave that up to those who have been involved in the discussion thus far. In other words, either clean-up your manners or I will stop the dialogue all together.
As Muslims, we are told to use kind words and that if we get involved in a discussion that is at an impasse, it is better to simply say "You have your way and I have mine. Salam" as we walk away than it is to resort to words and actions that would be displease to Allah. Those who come here who are not Muslims are asked to follow the same guidelines...after all, this is a Muslim website and just as I would not go to your home and disrespect your way of living, we expect everyone to be respectful of the way he/she agreed to act when he/she joined IC forum.
Thank you very much for your cooperation!
Sister Khadija (moderator)
------------- Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 11:10pm
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
Somebody who asserts the error of another's commentary should really be more specific. You are talking about "tit for tat drivel," but how can anybody reply adequetly with sources and address what your are saying when all of your statements are based off prejudicial perspectives, generalizations, propoganda and paranoya, and have no sources whatsoever to support them directly or indirectly? No self-respecting scholar, Jewish or non, would ever support the type of paranoya and insanity you propose, and the hypocrisy that you so fervently enunciate.
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My criticisms were entirely on mark and specific enough that I even provided you with the "specific" fallacies. You simply replied with useless remarks that evaded and escaped what was given to you. Your dishonesty and ignorance is not my problem.
You are asserting that I have proposed "paranoya" (paronoia), which is utter nonsense, and that is simply a "usual" zionist "labeling" tactic to avoid any dissention or even disagreement with your bankrupt movement.
Your first reaction to my reply to your bad form was to "lash out" by trying to paste links from faithfreedom. LOL. Your own actions reveal your weakness.
Look at your last lines, what was the rationale for that? Clear evidence of what I have been saying all along, and your hypocrisy is outrageous. What planet are you from? I counter "cursory" reasoning and generalizations infused with paranoya, with indiffrent responses of a general nature that are meant to "break the ice," and to soften up your thick skull because you clearly cannot establish any proper argument. How is it that you live in the USA and you have no access to libraries of any sort? You are deriding my sources, or "lack thereof"? At least I have sources and reason supported by objective literature, you've presented nothing to counter anything, your indifference towards the sources I had, in regards to the atrocities Muslim's commited, is based on the fact that some authors are Jewish (without actually knowing anything about them), and essentially everything you have to say is of a propogandistic nature, conditioned by your little Muslim microcosm. All of your statements are based on paranoya, "quibling" about imaginary "Zionist conspiracies." No other scholarly source that I present to you would really matter anyway because you are a person that lives in a cold, dark, and deep closet. You are like a Palestinian "juvenile" who throws some stones, and claims to win a battle, when in realty he losses the war, and will never have any sort of realistic dominance; your comment about the font I used is a testament to that fact. You claim that I am mistaken, and yet you are not specific, you have no sources to support your words directly or indirectly, you have nothing but your fowl tongue. You clearly are a hypocrtite and a delusional anti-semite and before you take it upon yourself to utter any word, maybe you should do some serious reading, and cut the mokey stuff out. You are not in the right country to have such a mentality.
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tautological drivel, ad nauseum.
As usual, you load your responses with countless red herrings and childish assertions.
Keep in mind, I have you absolutely "specific" words that used, in complete terms, the fallacies that were thrown about in your reply. The problem is that the thread is so far obfuscated by your over editorializing and countless "red herrings" that the thread has been branded "useless". Thank you for that.
"Are you that arrogant and ignorant that you really believe that this is a real historical piece worthy of any scholarly trust? Are you that out of your mind? Seriously. Pathetic."
You are making Judgements based on the names, you arrogant monkey! LOL!
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No, I am making judgements about the "sources". Your complete lack of "critical thinking" skills is creating great difficulties for you. Your juvenile attempt at a "scholarly" piece stinks of "appealing to authority". This means you found "Zionist" sources about a topic that is "controversial". So you will accept a sophmoric piece about how morally and intellectually and spirtually bankrupt Zionism is using "Muslim" Arab sources? You are unable to even recognize a serious piece to back your claims. How deficient is that? Really.
And the fact that you worship the moon was not made up by me.
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First, this is yet another strawman: I never claimed that you did. (please not that there is no earthly, or any other means, to be any more specific about your constant "critical thinking" blunders.)
Second, this is not a fact, but a poor debunked, and unscholarly polemic that has been recyled countlessly by evangelicals and zioinsts, and normally from the more "unread" of these groups as the "theory" is not "widley accepted.
Third, this is one of your "red herrings", one of many that you dump in your rants.
Fourth, this is a violation of the forum rules (one of meany violations by you so far). This "assertion" is completely irrelevant to the thread, and goes off topic. I do understand your intention of playing these games, and as of now you have three choices:
1) try to continue throwing it out out of place in this thread, and you will have you first official warning on this forum, three leads to your account going under review.
2) let it go
3) open up a thread in the appropiate section: interfaith about the origins of Islam.
The choice of yours.
That was a reference to the alleged pagan roots of your religion, ironically you are the one who started this topic of the moon. I guess this "sacrilage" is still in the back of your minds, you ignorant ape!
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Wow....thats pretty "adult" of you. You sure sound intelligent and convincing.
Do some reading! Google it!
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Amazing. Google also says that Zionism is a racist, immoral movement. Do some reading! "Google" is not a proof. Keep in mind that this theory you are trying to assert as fact (again your lack of critical thinking skills is challenging you, a theory is not a fact)
I merely found it comical that you would use such an example when the worship of the moon was a major part of pagan history of Arabia, and/or the reference the "majesty" of the moon. It is clear that now you are a victim of a similar sort of blindness, as far as fervency is concerned, of a political and philosophical nature in regards to the west itself; I am not speaking of your contemporary theological perspective, I don't really care much about it, I am talking about your flawed and abberant politics.
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You have befuddled this thread so much, there is little relevance between your "red herring" and anything I have spoken of. Trying to force this irrelevant "jab" into this thread further is strking of your character. You are too much of a coward to even put up a thread in the relevant forum and debate this cheap polemic.
Given your continued attempt to force such a blatant red herring into this thread which has not provided you with any real subject matter to call for this, conisder this your first "official" warning.
You have been warned. Abide by the guidlines or else.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 11:26pm
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
"Irrelevant. (talk about a cowardly dance, you really danced around my example of your juvenile nature!)"
I point out the contradictory nature of your argument, and you sideswipe that fact by speaking of a refrence to an insulting epithet , or "juvenile." Why would I adress your morbidly opinionated statements when I can address more important things like your contradictory comments, and your mendacity? You are a lazy and cowardly degenerate, and you have to stop dancing around the facts. You cannot make such moronic statements while knowing that your argument is a paradox. You say that I do not address your argument but, how can you say such a thing when you can't even admit that you are a walking oxymoron? You are the one that cannot admit that he is wrong and is commiting the same vain travesty, continuously; you are the juvenile.
Your problem is that you make very extreme, and outrageous statements, and you do nothing to support them via delineation of any rational reasoning, or any allusions to any scholarly sources that would counter my historical interpretation. And then you assume that I have to analyze your ranting. You must be joking, you make yourself look even more frivolous by alluding to your anti-Semetic mentality. You circumvent important issues that establish the fact that criminality pervades every single political entity to a degree that is even higher than Israel's, look at Russia for example, where 1500 Chechnyans go missing every week; yet, you do not complain about that because Russia is completely ignorant of criticism, and it supplies Muslim countries with weapons. Why the obsession with the Jews and Israel when so many more horrendous crimes are being commited against Muslims by your own countries, and by other western nations? Are you going to say that the latter is also irrelevent? So anything that doesn't fit your agenda or defame the state of Israel is of no consequence to a "genius" of your caliber? Are things only relevent for discussion if they do not pose a threat to your feeble arguments? How can anybody that has a brain allude to the idea that Israel has the highest degree of corruption and criminality and is the only country that was predominantly built upon lies, when most countries in the world were built upon mendacity, treachery, and plundering? You live in the USA for God sakes! You need to take some history courses before you make such slow-minded deductions. You assume that Israel has the highest degree of criminality without supporting such an unfounded idea. At the same time, you do not speak of the sinister nature of your own people's reflection, and you claim that our side has the most culpability, a moronic and ignorant idea. You say that Israel should have the moral high ground here, while everybody else deviates so viciously, you have a ridiculous, one-sided and even inhuman perspective on what Israel should be and how it should act.
You ignore the violent history of your ridiculous civilization, and the corruption of the Ottomons. You claim that when Palestinians lived under the Ottomons, they lived in prosperity, while ignoring the fact that the idea of the prosperity of the west is seriously different from the Islamic prosperity of retrospection, and even the modern day. How can anybody address any of these things? How can people speak to you when you assume that I, because I am a Jew, drain this society of something that you do not require or extract, and that I, after executing such actions or extractions, do not allocate differential resources into that very same economy? How exactly do people live without reciprocity, and how is that you manage to avoid conspiratorial agendas (unlike the Jews), while at the same time being exempt from the economic perturbations and situations that commit all of humanity? I am asking these questions because you imply some sort of philosophical and ideological innocence and political superiority from your reasoning, where you do not abide by the same rules as any other human being living in this world, and you have no need for the same things that Jews apparently require, as if we are all a single mentality, and you are some sort of a supernal manifestation. Are you funded by terrorist organizations? Do you live in some sort of a Muslim bubble? How do you contend that the Jews cause more harm, in American society, and essentially drain the resources, while you do no such things? Is your ignorance towards Islamic extermism and it's support via your moral and idealogical stagnation and your direct approbation of deviant entities that target civilians not tantamount to the ignorance of Israeli "transgressions" and indescretions commited by Jews? Are you not just a hypocrite that has flown to one side and that refuses to gander at both the yin and yang? Your contentions are pure paranoya and insanity, there is no way to speak to you normally. Though, I will tell you that if you were in my neighborhood, you would never speak like that; you would have a smile on your face everyday, and I am sure that you hold your tongue in your own outside world.
Speak to me when you have the ability to present some sort of a logical, consistent, and accurate argument. Once again, get an education.
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More tautoligcal drivel. To mask your shortcomings, you have repeated your pattern of "dumping" which amounts to jumping from "assertion" to "assertion", taking swipes with unargued and unproven "claims" that are too numerous to even begin replying to, not to mention they are "irrelevant" to this thread. You hide behind these cheap rhetorical tricks, and then cry foul as is the usual chicanery of Jewish Zionists. I can debate you on any of the "countless" red herrings you have dishonestly dumped in this diatribe. Just place the topic in the appropriate section, and then try very hard to stay on topic. Keep in mind that you have been given your first official warning.
By the way, if I lived in your neighborhood, and you tried to give me the usual Zionist "pitty party" followed up with "crying foul" at the world, I would speak what I think. It was not long ago that a Jewish Rabbi (Zioinst) at a religous interfaith discussion tried to railroad the forum and began doing pretty much what you have tried here (oddely similar). The panel I was speaking on was coming on next and so I was waiting in the aduience. He rudely forced his idiocy on the audience and the forum, made up of a Christian and a Muslim. After keeping the Muslim silent, I walked up to his chair and debated him, and shut him up, and the audience cheered very nicely. Keep in mind, I usually speak my mind and have no fear of public debate. My desire to make a verbal challenge does not extend only to crude, vulgar, and ignorant Zionist Rabbis, I will challenge anyone who is in the seat of "speaking authority" if they are being intellectually dishonest. I have debated a well known "wahabi" convert who's name and site have come up on this forum (his website and links), and I cringe when many converts study his lectures and use his work to present Islam to others. I caught him "lying" during a discussion. Lets just say that the Kuwatis are wasting their money on him.
If you want to debate specific topics, put up your ideas in the approriate forums. Abide by the rules.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 11:28pm
Israfil wrote:
1. Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton & Co., 1986), p. 81.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Pro-Islamic http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews ," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.
3. Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
4. Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
5. Bat Yeor, pp. 185-86, 191, 194.
6. Norman Stillman, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Arab Lands, (PA: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1979), pp. 59, 284.
7. Maurice Roumani, The Case of the http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, (Tel Aviv: World Organization of http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews from Arab Countries, 1977), pp. 26-27.
8. Bat Ye'or, p. 61
9. G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam," Viator, (1971), p. 369.
10. Bernard Lewis, The http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/jews.html - Jews of Islam, (NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984) p. 158.
11. Middle Eastern Studies, (1971), p. 232.
12. New York Times, (February 19, 1947).
13. Roumani, pp. 30-31.
This list looks like the whos-who at a Jewish wedding.
That was really funny.........
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Assalam Aleikum....
yea I had to laugh when I saw his contribution and he was really proud of it. This is really the extent of his education regarding Islam and the world. He will never leave the safe boundaries of his Zionist thinkers. In his mind, they have the right to define the world, all faiths, and right and wrong.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 11:57pm
The Jews also use the lunar Calendar. So can we Muslims say that the Jews are pagans worshipping the moon?? If they have allergy to symbol of the moon on most of our flags, then we see they have some kind of star on their flags. So do they worship a star and the Jews are star worshippers, by their own logic.
An argument may be presented and a good strong relevant argument. There should be no derogatory remarks against each other.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 1:51am
"First, this is yet another strawman: I never claimed that you did. (please not that there is no earthly, or any other means, to be any more specific about your constant "critical thinking" blunders.)"
"Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts"."
So if you knew that I did not make this up then why the aforesaid comment? Talk about critical thinking blunders.
"My criticisms were entirely on mark and specific enough that I even provided you with the "specific" fallacies. You simply replied with useless remarks that evaded and escaped what was given to you. Your dishonesty and ignorance is not my problem."
On whose mark exactly? You did not manage to provide anything except ignorance. I replied with remarks that you deserved completely, if you were not pejorative and blatant, there would not be a problem, I would address any reasonable issue. Everything you stated was either a generalization, contradiction, or just retardation.
"You are asserting that I have proposed "paranoya" (paronoia), which is utter nonsense, and that is simply a "usual" zionist "labeling" tactic to avoid any dissention or even disagreement with your bankrupt movement."
Thanks for the correction, but before you correct me, maybe you should edit your own post. The aforesaid is another example of paronoia. My movement is far from bankrupt, you should know that, you live in America.
"Your first reaction to my reply to your bad form was to "lash out" by trying to paste links from faithfreedom. LOL. Your own actions reveal your weakness."
Bad form? Are you speaking of writing styles now? I thought we were speaking of semantics. The website was provided for the sake of the pictures that were on it.
"tautological drivel, ad nauseum."
For inteligent camels like you.
"Keep in mind, I have you absolutely "specific" words that used, in complete terms, the fallacies that were thrown about in your reply. The problem is that the thread is so far obfuscated by your over editorializing and countless "red herrings" that the thread has been branded "useless". Thank you for that."
Please clear up this babble. LOL, why would you even speak of obfuscating when you can't even write properly, or put together any sort of cohesive argument? You need some editorializing, that's what your going to be doing in your response to clean up the babble you wrote. Your welcome!
"No, I am making judgements about the "sources". Your complete lack of "critical thinking" skills is creating great difficulties for you. Your juvenile attempt at a "scholarly" piece stinks of "appealing to authority". This means you found "Zionist" sources about a topic that is "controversial".
"So you will accept a sophmoric piece about how morally and intellectually and spirtually bankrupt Zionism is using "Muslim" Arab sources?"
What does that mean? Please edit your nonsense.
"You are unable to even recognize a serious piece to back your claims. How deficient is that? Really."
A serious piece would be a Muslim source?
I know that your making idiotic judgements about the sources, and basing your judgements on the idea that some of the writers are Jewish, that is how I know that you are a camel, and that is another fact that illuminates your idiocy. I never attempted at any scholarly piece, that would be a book or a research paper. This is a blog, genius, I base my ideas on scholarly and objective writings, unlike you, who bases his ideas on unfounded "ad nauseum". I cited certain sources, it wouldn't matter what I would cite anyway because you are a moronic, hypocritical and a myopic racist.
"Second, this is not a fact, but a poor debunked, and unscholarly polemic that has been recyled countlessly by evangelicals and zioinsts, and normally from the more "unread" of these groups as the "theory" is not "widley accepted."
I never said it was a fact, please read carefully.
"Third, this is one of your "red herrings", one of many that you dump in your rants."
Now, your just blabbing, your angry and you did not read properly.
"Fourth, this is a violation of the forum rules (one of meany violations by you so far). This "assertion" is completely irrelevant to the thread, and goes off topic. I do understand your intention of playing these games, and as of now you have three choices:"
And calling one of the matriarchs of Judaism a female dog is what? Proper Muslim conduct? And I commited no violation, if you read properly.
"The choice of yours."
You need classes in English. You seem to know how to use the spell checker really well, I guess that is a step up.
"Wow....thats pretty "adult" of you. You sure sound intelligent and convincing."
Yes, and saying that one of the Jewish matriarchs is a female dog is pretty adult of you as well. And then saying that Jews suck the economy dry is another sign of your adulthood.
"Amazing. Google also says that Zionism is a racist, immoral movement. Do some reading! "Google" is not a proof. Keep in mind that this theory you are trying to assert as fact (again your lack of critical thinking skills is challenging you, a theory is not a fact)"
What a hypocrite, why are you jumping topics? You castigate me for that, but I guess Muslims don't practice what they preach. And google is a search engine, you genius. I never asserted it as a fact, I said that it was alleged, read properly. You are the one that has absoulutely no critical thinking skills. Google is a search engine, it does not have to be proof, it leads you to websites where you can read. "Google it" is just an expression, telling you to do some research.
"Given your continued attempt to force such a blatant red herring into this thread which has not provided you with any real subject matter to call for this, conisder this your first "official" warning."
You are the one that started talking about the moon, your warnings mean nothing to me.
"More tautoligcal drivel. To mask your shortcomings, you have repeated your pattern of "dumping" which amounts to jumping from "assertion" to "assertion", taking swipes with unargued and unproven "claims" that are too numerous to even begin replying to, not to mention they are "irrelevant" to this thread. You hide behind these cheap rhetorical tricks, and then cry foul as is the usual chicanery of Jewish Zionists. I can debate you on any of the "countless" red herrings you have dishonestly dumped in this diatribe. Just place the topic in the appropriate section, and then try very hard to stay on topic. Keep in mind that you have been given your first official warning."
Since when are you an official? The aforesaid just sounds like another cheap and cowardly cop-out because of your indolence and laziness, a gaggle of rabble-babble. You have not been able to debate me, or disprove anything. You have just contradicted yourself, and managed to let your "cursory" education shine very well. You have also managed to show how historically unaware and ignorant you really are; your lack of critical thinking skills consumes you.
You wouldn't survive in my neighborhood for a day. And I really don't care about your dealings with this Rabbi. I am sure that when he realized that he was dealing with a monkey and when he ran out of bananas, he stopped interacting with you. Hitler also received much applause, so what? People will believe any drivel, people don't read, and they are conformists; so if a mongrel like you comes a long, and talks over a Rabbi, some morons may clap. Though, I bet that a Zionists Rabbi for you is just any religious Jew. You didn't even know anything about him, you just figured that he was a religious Jew and a possible Rabbi, so he must be wrong. Your statements are not compelling, you disregarded sources because they were Jewish without knowing anything about them, so how inteligent and analytic can you really be? These arguments that you make are just moronic. You are a walking paradox, you've managed to contradict yourself over the course of our conversation more than anything.
Your such a clown!
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 6:52pm
. . Muslims who persecuted them for centuries
The real sadness of your posts is that you seem totally unaware of the fact that, both, el-Andalus and the Ottoman set ups were Joint Ventures between the Muslims and Jews of that age. All my learned and educated Jewish friends, all across the world recognise these periods as their golden age.
It's just another matter that none of these highly educated and gifted friends will never use the language you use or even your misguided contents.
Jews were never persecuted in any Muslim period.
and forcefully converted them
It was against the Muslim interest to convert anyone and loose that jaziya, the tax that the non-Muslims paid!!! But I just love this fabrication for I love good jokes.
while raping their women?
And, the Ottomans would receive all the Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition and provide them full protection, just to rape the women of their FULL partners in the empire?
And what happened to the land and property taken by Muslims from Jews in Islamic countries
If you are able to prove as fact, my friend, I will get you nominated for a Nobel Prize, for establishing the most ridiculous.
before the creation of the state of Israel?
Yes, a lot did happen, in Muslim countries, specially, under British influence, around the time when Israel was being carved out, primarily, to implement a Churchillian thought ". . and, we will have million of jews doing our bidding in that quarter of importance!"
Why don't you complain about that?
We complain and stand against all forms of injustice. That's why we are complaining about some of your extremely unjust palabras and assertions. Not to mention your quite interesting abusive behaviour.
I think, you will feel better and far less bitter just if you gathered some facts about Jewish-Muslims relations prior to the induction of Greek wars.
But, then, if you are bent on propogating something for some other reasons, you definitely won't feel anything at all.
------------- Sasha Khanzadeh
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 7:59pm
"The real sadness of your posts is that you seem totally unaware of the fact that, both, el-Andalus and the Ottoman set ups were Joint Ventures between the Muslims and Jews of that age. All my learned and educated Jewish friends, all across the world recognise these periods as their golden age."
Once again, this is what happens when you misread what I say. I stated that the idea of prosperity in the Islamic world drastically deviates from the idea of prosperity in the west; this is a cultural and theological phenomenon.
"It's just another matter that none of these highly educated and gifted friends will never use the language you use or even your misguided contents."
Well, if you call their mother a female dog and slap them around, I am sure that they will come through. And what contents do you speak of?
"Jews were never persecuted in any Muslim period."
Did you even bother thinking before writing that line?
"It was against the Muslim interest to convert anyone and loose that jaziya, the tax that the non-Muslims paid!!! But I just love this fabrication for I love good jokes."
That depends on the location, I have freinds in Iran whose familes were forcefully converted, and there are many instances when forcefull conversion was a reality in Islamic countries. One of the reasons the Rambam had to flee is because such a thing was imminent.
"And, the Ottomans would receive all the Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition and provide them full protection, just to rape the women of their FULL partners in the empire?"
I never stated that the Ottomons were raping Jews, I know that they were complicit in administrative authorities with the Jews, I was speaking of the surrounding Arab communities; Turks and Jews have managed to get along quite well because the Turks had an Empire and much to lose, they depended on the Jews, as well as the Armenians and other minorities for political and economic support. The Arab Muslims on the other hand were always substantially more unstable. Maybe its just an Arab problem? Though, that cannot be it because look at Iran.
"Jews In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious
Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled."
http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm - http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm
The best neighborhood in Egypt was a Jewish neighborhood? Was expelling those Jews that lived their for so long not tantamount to taking their land?
"We complain and stand against all forms of injustice. That's why we are complaining about some of your extremely unjust palabras and assertions. Not to mention your quite interesting abusive behaviour."
Do you feel victimized? Good, so I guess you and the Zionists have more in common than you think. I also did not feel very peachy when one of the matriarchs of Judaism was called a female dog by one of your Muslim brothers, and I also did not really appreciate the blanket statements, and the generalizations coming from your brethren.
"I think, you will feel better and far less bitter just if you gathered some facts about Jewish-Muslims relations prior to the induction of Greek wars."
I know that those relations were much better than the relations Jews had in Europe, and many Jews had successful positions in the Islamic Middle East. Though, that still does not undercut the transgressions commited against the Jews in the Arab populated areas. I understand that it is far better to be in prison than in hell, and the Islamic middle east was a prison for certain Jews and other minorities. We lived as second class citizens in certain places, alongside other non-Muslims that also had a similar status.
"But, then, if you are bent on propogating something for some other reasons, you definitely won't feel anything at all."
Propogating propoganda for the sake of converting some of your brethren? I am too old for such a thing!
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 9:06pm
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
"First, this is yet another strawman: I never claimed that you did. (please not that there is no earthly, or any other means, to be any more specific about your constant "critical thinking" blunders.)"
"Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts"."
So if you knew that I did not make this up then why the aforesaid comment? Talk about critical thinking blunders.
"My criticisms were entirely on mark and specific enough that I even provided you with the "specific" fallacies. You simply replied with useless remarks that evaded and escaped what was given to you. Your dishonesty and ignorance is not my problem."
On whose mark exactly? You did not manage to provide anything except ignorance. I replied with remarks that you deserved completely, if you were not pejorative and blatant, there would not be a problem, I would address any reasonable issue. Everything you stated was either a generalization, contradiction, or just retardation.
"You are asserting that I have proposed "paranoya" (paronoia), which is utter nonsense, and that is simply a "usual" zionist "labeling" tactic to avoid any dissention or even disagreement with your bankrupt movement."
Thanks for the correction, but before you correct me, maybe you should edit your own post. The aforesaid is another example of paronoia. My movement is far from bankrupt, you should know that, you live in America.
"Your first reaction to my reply to your bad form was to "lash out" by trying to paste links from faithfreedom. LOL. Your own actions reveal your weakness."
Bad form? Are you speaking of writing styles now? I thought we were speaking of semantics. The website was provided for the sake of the pictures that were on it.
"tautological drivel, ad nauseum."
For inteligent camels like you.
"Keep in mind, I have you absolutely "specific" words that used, in complete terms, the fallacies that were thrown about in your reply. The problem is that the thread is so far obfuscated by your over editorializing and countless "red herrings" that the thread has been branded "useless". Thank you for that."
Please clear up this babble. LOL, why would you even speak of obfuscating when you can't even write properly. You need some editorializing, that's what your going to be doing in your response to clean up the babble you wrote. Your welcome!
"No, I am making judgements about the "sources". Your complete lack of "critical thinking" skills is creating great difficulties for you. Your juvenile attempt at a "scholarly" piece stinks of "appealing to authority". This means you found "Zionist" sources about a topic that is "controversial".
"So you will accept a sophmoric piece about how morally and intellectually and spirtually bankrupt Zionism is using "Muslim" Arab sources?"
What does that mean? Please edit your nonsense.
"You are unable to even recognize a serious piece to back your claims. How deficient is that? Really."
A serious piece would be a Muslim source?
I know that your making idiotic judgements about the sources, and basing your judgements on the idea that some of the writers are Jewish, that is how I know that you are a camel. I never attempted at any scholarly piece, that would be a book or a research paper. This is a blog, genius.
"Second, this is not a fact, but a poor debunked, and unscholarly polemic that has been recyled countlessly by evangelicals and zioinsts, and normally from the more "unread" of these groups as the "theory" is not "widley accepted."
I never said it was a fact, please read carefully.
"Third, this is one of your "red herrings", one of many that you dump in your rants."
Now, your just blabbing, your angry and you did not read properly.
"Fourth, this is a violation of the forum rules (one of meany violations by you so far). This "assertion" is completely irrelevant to the thread, and goes off topic. I do understand your intention of playing these games, and as of now you have three choices:"
And calling one of the matriarchs of Judaism a female dog is what? Proper Muslim conduct? And I commited no violation, if you read properly.
"The choice of yours."
I choose to tell you that you need classes in English. You seem to know how to use the spell checker really well, I guess that is a step up.
"Wow....thats pretty "adult" of you. You sure sound intelligent and convincing."
Yes, and saying that one of the Jewish matriarchs is a female dog is pretty adult of you as well. And then saying that Jews suck the economy dry is another sign of your adulthood.
"Amazing. Google also says that Zionism is a racist, immoral movement. Do some reading! "Google" is not a proof. Keep in mind that this theory you are trying to assert as fact (again your lack of critical thinking skills is challenging you, a theory is not a fact)"
What a hypocrite, why are you jumping topics? You castigate me for that, but I guess Muslims don't practice what they preach. And google is a search engine, you genius. I never asserted it as a fact, I said that it was alleged, read properly. You are the one that has absoulutely no critical thinking skills. Google is a search engine, it does not have to be proof, it leads you to websites where you can read. "Google it" is just an expression, telling you to do some research.
"Given your continued attempt to force such a blatant red herring into this thread which has not provided you with any real subject matter to call for this, conisder this your first "official" warning."
You are the one that started talking about the moon, your warnings mean nothing to me.
"More tautoligcal drivel. To mask your shortcomings, you have repeated your pattern of "dumping" which amounts to jumping from "assertion" to "assertion", taking swipes with unargued and unproven "claims" that are too numerous to even begin replying to, not to mention they are "irrelevant" to this thread. You hide behind these cheap rhetorical tricks, and then cry foul as is the usual chicanery of Jewish Zionists. I can debate you on any of the "countless" red herrings you have dishonestly dumped in this diatribe. Just place the topic in the appropriate section, and then try very hard to stay on topic. Keep in mind that you have been given your first official warning."
Since when are you an official? The aforesaid just sounds like another cheap and cowardly cop-out because of your indolence and laziness. You have not been able to debate me. You have just contradicted yourself, and managed to let your cursory education shine very well. You have also managed to show how historically unaware and ignorant you really are; your lack of critical thinking skills consumes you.
You wouldn't survive in my neighborhood for a day. And I really don't care about your dealings with this Rabbi. I am sure that when he realized that he was dealing with a monkey and when he ran out of bananas, he stopped interacting with you.
Your such a clown!
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postamble();
Another response with so many "claims" jamm packed that it would be impossible to comment on everything. Since you continue with these antics, I will lack the thread after a few comments of my own.
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
"First, this is yet another strawman: I never claimed that you did. (please not that there is no earthly, or any other means, to be any more specific about your constant "critical thinking" blunders.)"
"Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts"."
So if you knew that I did not make this up then why the aforesaid comment? Talk about critical thinking blunders.
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Yes, that is what I said, but I apologize for giving you waay too much credit for being astute, since you were unable to recognize a glaring example of "sarcasm" I will now "dumb" down my replies be very careful and thoughtful. I am sorry.
"My criticisms were entirely on mark and specific enough that I even provided you with the "specific" fallacies. You simply replied with useless remarks that evaded and escaped what was given to you. Your dishonesty and ignorance is not my problem."
On whose mark exactly? You did not manage to provide anything except ignorance. I replied with remarks that you deserved completely, if you were not pejorative and blatant, there would not be a problem, I would address any reasonable issue. Everything you stated was either a generalization, contradiction, or just retardation.
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the "mark" defined by the basic rules of logic that govern rhetoric. I am sorry if you wish to go against the rest of humanity in this matter. Regardless, you need to take your concerns up with the rest of humanity.
"You are asserting that I have proposed "paranoya" (paronoia), which is utter nonsense, and that is simply a "usual" zionist "labeling" tactic to avoid any dissention or even disagreement with your bankrupt movement."
Thanks for the correction, but before you correct me, maybe you should edit your own post. The aforesaid is another example of paronoia. My movement is far from bankrupt, you should know that, you live in America.
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1) Take the time to learn what a word means. Your group throws this word around so much that it begins to loose its intended meaning.
Paranoia
- A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
- Extreme, irrational distrust of others
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/paranoia - Could you please paste the exact statement I have made that fits either one or two.
2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually
I know that your making idiotic judgements about the sources, and basing your judgements on the idea that some of the writers are Jewish, that is how I know that you are a camel. I never attempted at any scholarly piece, that would be a book or a research paper. This is a blog, genius.
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Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly beileve this is an "unbiased" piece.
"Second, this is not a fact, but a poor debunked, and unscholarly polemic that has been recyled countlessly by evangelicals and zioinsts, and normally from the more "unread" of these groups as the "theory" is not "widley accepted."
I never said it was a fact, please read carefully.
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You stated it was a fact and you asserted it as such. You are welcome to debate your theory in the interfaith section. You will probably be met with links to to older threads where this subject has been debated to a large extent.
And calling one of the matriarchs of Judaism a female dog is what? Proper Muslim conduct? And I commited no violation, if you read properly.
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1) I did not say I think she is, I stated that your Torah makes her out to be one. Another evidence of its complete corruption. I hold the wife of every Prophet (as) with great esteem, which is far different from pointing out the position another source makes.
2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times.
I see nothing else worth commenting on.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:38pm
Stop making excuses for your laziness and lack of depth; and instead of saying that my comments are too numerous and fallacious, maybe you should be a little more specific and address something with logic and clarity, instead of all of these contradictions.
"Yes, that is what I said, but I apologize for giving you waay too much credit for being astute, since you were unable to recognize a glaring example of "sarcasm" I will now "dumb" down my replies be very careful and thoughtful. I am sorry."
Sarcasm, are inteligent people supposed to know this because of the "LOL" and the quotation marks around truths? And after calling me a fool and speaking of the moon, a symbol of sacriligious Arabia, why would you even think of being sacrcastic?
"the "mark" defined by the basic rules of logic that govern rhetoric. I am sorry if you wish to go against the rest of humanity in this matter. Regardless, you need to take your concerns up with the rest of humanity."
The basic rules of logic dictated by the Koran? What are you speaking about here? Humanity has defined basic rules of logic? And you managed to follow these rules? An example would be good with such a reply, not having any example just shows that your are speaking out of your behind. If in fact you do follow these imaginary rules of absurd logic, I can see why humanity consists of a majority of idiots.
Take the time to look into a few dictionaries before pasting definitions.
par�a�noi�a https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fparanoia"> /ˌp�rəˈnɔɪə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-noi-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. |
Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission. |
2. |
baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.
Your labeling of everything as being a "Zionist conspiracy" and your automatic refutation of sources on the basis that they are Jewish fits the second definition.
"2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually"
There are several problems with this statement.
1. We do not and will never have a common definition of spirituality; try to use a dictionary again for this word.
2. Morals are a serious matter of perception.
3. Intelectual value is also a perspectivist domain.
"Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly beileve this is an "unbiased" piece."
I said some of them are Jewish, and you don't know anything about their politics, you are talking out of your butt. Nothing is really an unbiased piece, some writings have more biases than others. And if the name does have Jewish persuasion that doesn't neccessarily denote any political position, or religion; you are truly a camel. Lastly, many "Jewish names" are actually German. And even if they are Jewish and Zionist, that doesn't disprove what they are saying, that MAY show that they have biases, but so does everybody, proving the degree of bias is a more complicated matter that cannot be done with a "cursory" education of your caliber.
"You stated it was a fact and you asserted it as such. You are welcome to debate your theory in the interfaith section. You will probably be met with links to to older threads where this subject has been debated to a large extent."
I never stated it was a fact, I said it was alleged, now you are "obfuscating." Just scroll up and read it properly.
"1) I did not say I think she is, I stated that your Torah makes her out to be one. Another evidence of its complete corruption. I hold the wife of every Prophet (as) with great esteem, which is far different from pointing out the position another source makes."
That is the same thing as me saying that Mohammed was a petiphile because he consumated his marriage with somebody that would be considered underage. This is a malicious interpretation, and something that is extremely inflamatory.
And do not speak of the Torah that way, you Camel. Your own Koran considers the Torah a holy document, and you know nothing of it.
"2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times."
You are making excuses for your fowl tongue, you are the one that started throwing around insults.
"I see nothing else worth commenting on."
Because you are a blind camel!
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 1:01am
Israeli_Avatar Newbie
Thank you for some of the most blatant distortions, of your own history, for reasons, I am now convinced, which are even beyond your own control.
People like you are the route cause of strife and bloodshed, not just in your area, but anywhere in our world.
Please, save your response because I am not going to even read your posts, ever again, leave aside feed your strange condition with my response. Sir, I have no time or the required professional qualifications, for nursing any such cases.
------------- Sasha Khanzadeh
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Posted By: Israeli_Avatar
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 1:57am
Your imaginary political correctness and agenda will not get you anywhere, you can back out of the debate, it is not a problem, this only proves that you are a coward. If I am wrong, please be specific and point my fallacies with sources. Otherwise, cut the wannabe psychological analysis out.
Just by you asserting that Muslims never persecuted Jews, I can see that you have a seriously malicious agenda up your sleeve.
"People like you are the route cause of strife and bloodshed, not just in your area, but anywhere in our world."
And what exactly is my area? The aforesaid is a moronic statement.
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 9:19am
Israeli_Avatar wrote:
Stop making excuses for your laziness and lack of depth; and instead of saying that my comments are too numerous and fallacious, maybe you should be a little more specific and address something with logic and clarity, instead of all of these contradictions.
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given that my reply was directly to what you have attempted to assert, any complaints about "depth" should be addressed to yourself. This rant does not even make sense. You are obviously trying to increase your vocabulary but you still need to learn what the words mean and how to use them. They simply do not suit you.
"Yes, that is what I said, but I apologize for giving you waay too much credit for being astute, since you were unable to recognize a glaring example of "sarcasm" I will now "dumb" down my replies be very careful and thoughtful. I am sorry."
Sarcasm, are inteligent people supposed to know this because of the "LOL" and the quotation marks around truths? And after calling me a fool and speaking of the moon, a symbol of sacriligious Arabia, why would you even think of being sacrcastic?
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The moon is not on any flag from the peninsula. Your ignorance betrays you yet again.
By the way, this is now your second official warning. I already warned you about your nasty habit of throwing in red herrings (you use them as a way to lash out in a tantrum).
One more warning left.
"the "mark" defined by the basic rules of logic that govern rhetoric. I am sorry if you wish to go against the rest of humanity in this matter. Regardless, you need to take your concerns up with the rest of humanity."
The basic rules of logic dictated by the Koran? What are you speaking about here? Humanity has defined basic rules of logic? And you managed to follow these rules? An example would be good with such a reply, not having any example just shows that your are speaking out of your behind. If in fact you do follow these imaginary rules of absurd logic, I can see why humanity consists of a majority of idiots.
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Strawman, I never mentioned the Quran. I am not sure if I should comment further, as your lack of knowledge and education would be as if throwing pearls to swine.
Yes, logic as defined by humanity, beginning with classical logic from the classical Greek period, and further developed by Muslims and then the west. LOL....imaginary rules. Once again you show your lack of education. Please, you cannot superimpose your own ignorance on to the rest of the world when it appeals to you. Please do some reading and research and join the rest of humanity.
Take the time to look into a few dictionaries before pasting definitions.
par�a�noi�a https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fparanoia"> /ˌp�r əˈnɔɪ ə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-noi-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. |
Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission. |
2. |
baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.
Your labeling of everything as being a "Zionist conspiracy" and your automatic refutation of sources on the basis that they are Jewish fits the second definition.
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Now you are showing how illiterate you are. This states the same thing I posted in meaning, and your cheap quibbling further diminishes your credibility. In other words, you are whining for the sake of whining.
"2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually"
There are several problems with this statement.
1. We do not and will never have a common definition of spirituality; try to use a dictionary again for this word.
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Thank you for agreeing with me. Not only is my statement correct, but you just confirmed it! Riotous. Not having any common notion of spirituality is "spiritually bankrupt". LOL......Looks like you not only need a dictionary, but a basic course in logic. You were unaware that you just proved by statement.
Moving on....
2. Morals are a serious matter of perception.
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incoherent drivel. And this does in any way prove that my statement has problems.
3. Intelectual value is also a perspectivist domain.
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More incoherent drivel. Not only does this "not" show that my statement is problematic, but this statement make absolutely "no sense".
"Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly believe this is an "unbiased" piece."
I said some of them are Jewish, and you don't know anything about their politics, you are talking out of your butt.
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Actually I do know, but your response tells me that you had not even thought about the idea that your piece was so highly biased. It appears that you pulled this one out of your "backside".
Nothing is really an unbiased piece, some writings have more biases than others.
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Nice attempt to evade the point. You do this when presented with uncomfortable facts about your movement....."well every nation has had racism"......"well every nation has done some wrong"......"well there is nothing that does not have some bias"......
Irrational.
And if the name does have Jewish persuasion that doesn't neccessarily denote any political position, or religion; you are truly a camel. Lastly, many "Jewish names" are actually German. And even if they are Jewish and Zionist, that doesn't disprove what they are saying, that MAY show that they have biases, but so does everybody, proving the degree of bias is a more complicated matter that cannot be done with a "cursory" education of your caliber.
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Actually, it proves that you committed the fallacy of "appealing to authority". Obviously, any piece written by Zionists about Muslims will have a slant. The nature of zionism establishes this immediately. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, as you would be the first to cry foul of Saudi thinkers wrote a piece about Israel and Zionism.
"You stated it was a fact and you asserted it as such. You are welcome to debate your theory in the interfaith section. You will probably be met with links to to older threads where this subject has been debated to a large extent."
I never stated it was a fact, I said it was alleged, now you are "obfuscating." Just scroll up and read it properly.
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"A fool like you can definately be made to worship the moon!"
"And the fact that you worship the moon was not made up by me."
enough said...
"1) I did not say I think she is, I stated that your Torah makes her out to be one. Another evidence of its complete corruption. I hold the wife of every Prophet (as) with great esteem, which is far different from pointing out the position another source makes."
That is the same thing as me saying that Mohammed was a petiphile because he consumated his marriage with somebody that would be considered underage. This is a malicious interpretation, and something that is extremely inflamatory.
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False analogy. The Quran and Sunnah do not diminish his character, nor is anything that is stated inherently wrong. The Torah gives an account that morally reprehensible, and demeans Isaac and his wife.
And do not speak of the Torah that way, you Camel. Your own Koran considers the Torah a holy document, and you know nothing of it.
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The Quran simply states that Moses was a messenger and had a revelation. The Quran does not confirm the "Sanhedrin�s" compilation. In other words, the Torah may have some things that are from God, mixed with things that are not. You are welcome to discuss this in "interfaith".
"2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times."
You are making excuses for your fowl tongue, you are the one that started throwing around insults.
"I see nothing else worth commenting on."
Because you are a blind camel!
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postamble();
No, I simply revealed your chicanery in your response to Sister herjihad. You lashed out with verbal games in response.
Given that you could not even hold a rational discussion with Br Whisper, I believe this thread to hold no more benefit. I will now close it. If you have any further desire to debate some of the irrelevant issues you raised, you may do so in the appropriate sections.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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