"al mu'minu bilaa kitaab"(the believer without a book)

A man can be a believer without trusting in another man's words, for instance a man in a far jungle somewhere whom Allah wishes to guide, thinks deeply and realizes that he, and everything else is created and sustained by One with great power, and that The One who creats and sustains everything is the only one who deserves to be worshipped. That he has to be good to others as He is and has been good to him, as He created for him food and water and all that he uses, that he should mind Him more then anything else, since nothing exists except by His will, that he should do deeds trying to please Him, worship you see? If a christian missionary comes to him and starts telling him about someone dieing on a cross for his sins, and that he should open his heart for the words of God(actually the words this missionary says) so telling him to open his heart to him and his claims, this "heathen" as the missionary would call him, will surely remember that people can be wrong and can lie, he knows from own experiance that something told about someone usually changes over time and when it is told to others who heard it from others and so on. Especially when it is something contreversial, like faith. and will probebly smile and excuse himself...........Those who call themselves christians probebly did not fully understand this in the past on more then one occasion, and tried to force people into what they accepted from those who they took as leaders as being christianity. One should be careful who he or she follows, because if one is not upright and not truthful, he will follow one who is a liar, and one who is truthful will follow one who is truthful also, because it is impossible for someone who is truthful to follow a liar without his heart being restless and in a state of war all the time, his or her heart will not find peace in their words or deeds and will eventually leave the liar and his followers. How does one know if he or she is truthful and upright? the only answer i have is that fearing Allah(the god of Abraham) is the best provision, fearing Him makes you real careful as to what to accept and reject, because you realize that you will stand before Him and that you will have to explain your choices.  The koran tells us there is no compulsion in the religion. (so stay away from those who try to push you towards what they accepted as truth) a verse from the bible :" it is better to seek refuge in the Lord then to trust man" Psalm 118 verse 8.

Hey now to you, how would this believer react to your words when you tell him about your faith?

Community wrote: "al mu'minu bilaa kitaab"(the believer without a book) A man can be a believer without trusting in another man's words, for instance a man in a far jungle somewhere, thinks deeply and realizes that he, and everything else is created and sustained by One with great power, and that The One who creats and sustains everything is the only one who deserves to be worshipped. That he has to be good to others as He is and has been good to him, as He created for him food and water and all that he uses, that he should mind Him more then anything else, since nothing exists except by His will, that he should do deeds trying to please Him, worship you see?

How can a man formulate such thoughts without any teaching or example?  If this were commonly possible, why would Allah send us 124,000 prophets as examples and sources of teaching?  Of course Abraham came to the proper conclusion, but these teachings and examples existed before his birth.

And what deeds would such a man invent to please and worship God?  How would he know what pleases God unless God communicated with him in some way? 

I don't understand what you are trying to say with such a postulation. 

THE IMPORTANCE OF LABELS

I have heard alot recently on this forum from those who are clothing themselves in the garb of Islam (i.e., using a picture of Quran as an image and using a Muslim sounding name) in an effort to gain some type of credibility for their ideas. To those who are doing this, please stop it.

I respect people who are honest, even if I disagree with their ideas. There are many participants in this forum who challenge Islam while admitting that they are non-Muslims. This is fine and appropriate for this forum. We will speak with them with the understanding that they do not accept our faith. ... however,

Their are others who begin their diatribes with "Bismillah A'Rahman A'Raheem", and then go on to say that "We are all prophets and messengers". There are others who try to quote the Quran and the Bible as if they were both equally valid. These people are misguided, and they have the potential to misguide others.

If you are not sure, or confused, or you are not a Muslim and do not agree with the teaching of Islam then just, please, for Gods sake, admit this and be clear about it. For those who are trying to create a new religion, or think they are prophets, or that we are prophets please be aware that  Allahs (Gods) hand is over your hands whether you like it or not.

Salam

UmTayyab wrote: [QUOTE=Community] "al mu'minu bilaa kitaab"(the believer without a book)   I don't understand what you are trying to say with such a postulation.

i will try to clearify the point of the story, Men have the ability to lie deceive and be wrong, i am sure you know this, they say: "jesus died for your sins on the cross" or "the holy spirit came upon this man and guided him to write this down, and so it is part of the gospel"(as "the christians" do it) or "these are sayings from great rabbis and the scholars should be obeyed like Moses(as "the jews" do) or "the prophet said this and he said that, and you need to follow a madhab or, no you need to be salafi to be saved, and this verse is abrogated(does'nt count anymore, how dare they?) because it was like this and the prophet then said.....and then this verse was sent down"(as "the muslims" do). How can someone expect someone else to accept his claims without any real proof? true faith, is faith in Allah not in people and their claims. They may threat and reward those who actually listen to them and follow them but The religion is clear, Engaging the peace with The One and Only god, Allah.(working to achieve Allah being pleased with you, gaining His peace). how does one engage the peace with Allah, by worshipping none but Him. There is no religion accepted on the day of judgement except this religion. may you be jew, christian or muslim, if Allah being pleased with you was not your goal, your works will be in vain. Others might be pleased with your obediance to their words and by observing their ways and this may have become fair seeming to you, but they will avail you nothing in the hereafter.

[[Say I am but a man like yourselves, it is inspired to me, that your god(ilaah)is one god(ilaah).So who ever wishes and expects the meeting with his Lord, let him do a mending work, and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone]]. [Holy koran, chapter 18 "al kahf" the cave verse 110] the koran should be read in arabic, this way there is no chance of being confused by some interpertor, sometimes they are just downright wrong, i hope for their sake it is out of ignorance that they are wrong in translating words,but how can these then become interpertors of the koran if they don't even seem to understand arabic or english correctly? woo to those who translate words wrong intentionally.

Qul innama ana basharun mithlukum yooha ilayya annama ilahukum ilahun wahidun faman kana yarjoo liqaa rabbihi falya'mal 'amalan salihan wala yushrik bi'ibadati rabbihi ahadan

Ali Zaki wrote: THE IMPORTANCE OF LABELS I have heard alot recently on this forum from those who are clothing themselves in the garb of Islam (i.e., using a picture of Quran as an image and using a Muslim sounding name) in an effort to gain some type of credibility for their ideas. To those who are doing this, please stop it. I respect people who are honest, even if I disagree with their ideas. There are many participants in this forum who challenge Islam while admitting that they are non-Muslims. This is fine and appropriate for this forum. We will speak with them with the understanding that they do not accept our faith. ... however, Their are others who begin their diatribes with "Bismillah A'Rahman A'Raheem", and then go on to say that "We are all prophets and messengers". There are others who try to quote the Quran and the Bible as if they were both equally valid. These people are misguided, and they have the potential to misguide others. someone who is guided by Allah will accept the truth and follow it when he  encounters it, even in the bible, so i am not saying the koran and todays bible are equally valid.  If you are not sure, or confused, or you are not a Muslim and do not agree with the teaching of Islam then just, please, for Gods sake, admit this and be clear about it. For those who are trying to create a new religion, or think they are prophets, or that we are prophets please be aware that  Allahs (Gods) hand is over your hands whether you like it or not. Salam

I am wondering why you posted this post, are you confused about what i am saying? is it not clear enough for you? Allahu Akbar means Allah is greater, and i am one of those who engage the peace with him, "innanee minal muslimeen"

UmTayyab wrote: Community wrote: "al mu'minu bilaa kitaab"(the believer without a book) A man can be a believer without trusting in another man's words, for instance a man in a far jungle somewhere, thinks deeply and realizes that he, and everything else is created and sustained by One with great power, and that The One who creats and sustains everything is the only one who deserves to be worshipped. That he has to be good to others as He is and has been good to him, as He created for him food and water and all that he uses, that he should mind Him more then anything else, since nothing exists except by His will, that he should do deeds trying to please Him, worship you see? How can a man formulate such thoughts without any teaching or example?

The same way religion started in the first place? The guy looks around and is impressed by what he sees and figures it was created by someone kinda clever and/or God puts the thought in his head. One assumes that's how prophets come to exist in the first place - God puts thoughts and words in their heads.

Kim...

kim! wrote: UmTayyab wrote: How can a man formulate such thoughts without any teaching or example?   The same way religion started in the first place? The guy looks around and is impressed by what he sees and figures it was created by someone kinda clever and/or God puts the thought in his head. One assumes that's how prophets come to exist in the first place - God puts thoughts and words in their heads. Kim...

I didn't realise before when I addressed you Kim (about horror stories) that you are not yet Muslim.  In Islam, we don't believe that "the guy looks around and is impressed..." but rather that Allah created Adam and his wife Hawa (Eve) and He taught Adam all the names of the created things, He taught them how to worship Him, He taught them how to repent to Him, and He taught them that their enemy was Iblis (Shaytan).  This was not an enlightenment through observation, but rather a direct communication from Allah. 

The Qur'an teaches us that Allah spoke directly to Adam and TAUGHT him, not inspired him.

kim wrote: ] The same way religion started in the first place? The guy looks around and is impressed by what he sees and figures it was created by someone kinda clever and/or God puts the thought in his head. One assumes that's how prophets come to exist in the first place - God puts thoughts and words in their heads. Kim...

I think you know that Quran is not an inspired word of God to Mohammad but a revealed text brought by Angel Gaberial. Though, I don't deny inspiration being a channel of communication between God and his messanger, but this is not the only channel; especially with regard to Quran, it never was the channel. Rest God knows the best. 

Community wrote:    .................People have a tendancy towards idolworship/ associating others with Allah(shirk), so Allah sends messengers, warners, and bringers of good tidings to the believers, an example is Noah, he was a a prophet, a believer and those with him on the ship were also believers, Allah drowned the others who refused the truth and stayed behind, but those who came after Noah, started to worship idols again, associate others with Allah.....so most people have a tendancy towards associating others with Allah. We should therefor fear Allah and be on our guard against it. .........

Your this part of the reply negates your own hypothesis that man alone from his deep innerself is sufficient to recognize the truth. Guidance from Allah is necessary to fight against the diversions of evil. Rest Allah knows the best.

AhmadJoyia wrote: ]   I think you know that Quran is not an inspired word of God to Mohammad but a revealed text brought by Angel Gaberial.

Ok, I'm slow - could you please explain the difference? (We are in the middle of moving everything back into place here at work after weeks and weeks of renovations, and I think I've packed my brain away in a box somewhere...)

Kim...

AhmadJoyia wrote: Community wrote:    .................People have a tendancy towards idolworship/ associating others with Allah(shirk), so Allah sends messengers, warners, and bringers of good tidings to the believers, an example is Noah, he was a a prophet, a believer and those with him on the ship were also believers, Allah drowned the others who refused the truth and stayed behind, but those who came after Noah, started to worship idols again, associate others with Allah.....so most people have a tendancy towards associating others with Allah. We should therefor fear Allah and be on our guard against it. ......... Your this part of the reply negates your own hypothesis that man alone from his deep innerself is sufficient to recognize the truth. Guidance from Allah is necessary to fight against the diversions of evil. Rest Allah knows the best.

 i never claimed that man alone from his deep innerself is sufficient to recognize the truth only by guidance of Allah can someone find the truth, my point was that people try to add to the faith, which is believing in One god, and working to gain His peace. They add things like:"you have to believe jesus is the son of god and he died for your sins on the cross, to be saved" or "you have to follow a madhab or be a salafi or shia to be guided" look at this verse from the koran:"2:135 They said: "Be Jews or Christians so that you will be guided." Say : Rather the way of Abraham the True(al haneef), and he was not of those who associate others with Allah."  Nowadays they say be a salafi, shia or a "madhabi" to be guided, there is no refference to Abraham anymore by most of these groups, since they follow another way than the way of Abraham. Abraham was not a jew, christian, salafi, madhabi, shia or whatever other groups and sects there are, he was one who did not associate others with Allah, and wished to please Him even if he had to slay his own son. Salaamun ala Ibraheem, A Peace is upon Abraham. He achieved Allah's Friendship.

Community wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Community wrote:    .................People have a tendancy towards idolworship/ associating others with Allah(shirk), so Allah sends messengers, warners, and bringers of good tidings to the believers, an example is Noah, he was a a prophet, a believer and those with him on the ship were also believers, Allah drowned the others who refused the truth and stayed behind, but those who came after Noah, started to worship idols again, associate others with Allah.....so most people have a tendancy towards associating others with Allah. We should therefor fear Allah and be on our guard against it. ......... Your this part of the reply negates your own hypothesis that man alone from his deep innerself is sufficient to recognize the truth. Guidance from Allah is necessary to fight against the diversions of evil. Rest Allah knows the best.  i never claimed that man alone from his deep innerself is sufficient to recognize the truth only by guidance of Allah can someone find the truth, my point was that people try to add to the faith, which is believing in One god, and working to gain His peace. They add things like:"you have to believe jesus is the son of god and he died for your sins on the cross, to be saved" or "you have to follow a madhab or be a salafi or shia to be guided" look at this verse from the koran:"2:135 They said: "Be Jews or Christians so that you will be guided." Say : Rather the way of Abraham the True(al haneef), and he was not of those who associate others with Allah."  Nowadays they say be a salafi, shia or a "madhabi" to be guided, there is no refference to Abraham anymore by most of these groups, since they follow another way than the way of Abraham. Abraham was not a jew, christian, salafi, madhabi, shia or whatever other groups and sects there are, he was one who did not associate others with Allah, and wished to please Him even if he had to slay his own son. Salaamun ala Ibraheem, A Peace is upon Abraham. He achieved Allah's Friendship.

To this note I agree with you. Thanks for clarification otherwise the way the story started in your first post, got me confused. Here is your opening sentence "A man can be a believer without trusting in another man's words, for instance a man in a far jungle somewhere, thinks deeply and realizes that he, and everything else is created and sustained by One with great power, and that The One who creats and sustains everything is the only one who deserves to be worshipped."

Anyway, I got your point.

kim! wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: ]   I think you know that Quran is not an inspired word of God to Mohammad but a revealed text brought by Angel Gaberial.  Ok, I'm slow - could you please explain the difference? (We are in the middle of moving everything back into place here at work after weeks and weeks of renovations, and I think I've packed my brain away in a box somewhere...) Kim...

No, my dear Sis,

I don't want to waste your time if this topic has already been discussed elsewhere in this forum (If this is want you meant by "..and I think I've packed my brain away in a box somewhere..."). Just refer it to me and I shall look upon this.

However, if it has some other meaning, then I am sorry, I couldn't understand your thoughts (probably they are too high for me to understand). Kindly bring them down to my understanding i.e. a lowest of all humans. Thanks.

To this note I agree with you. Thanks for clarification otherwise the way the story started in your first post, got me confused. Here is your opening sentence "A man can be a believer without trusting in another man's words, for instance a man in a far jungle somewhere, thinks deeply and realizes that he, and everything else is created and sustained by One with great power, and that The One who creats and sustains everything is the only one who deserves to be worshipped."

Anyway, I got your point.

[end quote]

I appreciate you pointing this out to me, i edited my first post and i hope this makes it clearer, may Allah reward you for your help.

Salam to Community,

My apologies to your regarding my post on page 1. I was getting frustrated with someone else's postings and I may have "painted with too broad a brush" on your equating the Bible and Quran. Please forgive me.

Salam

Ali Zaki wrote: Salam to Community, My apologies to your regarding my post on page 1. I was getting frustrated with someone else's postings and I may have "painted with too broad a brush" on your equating the Bible and Quran. Please forgive me. Salam

and peace to you too Ali Zaki,

All i can say is that i am thankful to Allah that He has guided you to this understanding, and it should go without saying that i forgive you, may Allah increase your knowledge and understanding, and may He guide you into all truth ameen.

We should have a separate section to decypher what Community says; what he actually means and who he really works for??

I have never come across a chap in my entire life who holds such arrogance and has become some self styled authority on the Koran e paak. Half the time he is trying to brew some sura or an ayat to justify this invasion and occupation.

Imagine, he has also justified Abu Gharaib and Gitmo in one breath in one of his posts. I am just waiting for this "Peerofits" verdict now on Falluja.

I am just a poor Pathaan. Please refrain him or come and hold me before I do what such desecrators deserve.

"I am just a poor Pathaan. Please refrain him or come and hold me before I do what such desecrators deserve"

, I enjoyed your joke which reminded me some of my Pathaan friends. Absolutely no difference. Its really amazing to see this universality among my these brothers.

Brother Ali Zaki, you were absolutely right in guaging him in your earlier post about those who adapt a Muslim name or use a page from the Koran to mask their real identities.

I have rarely come across such a masked thing abusing the Koran in such a manner and with such arrogance in my entire life. I hold no sympathy for a man who is there just to justify invasions, occupations and other crimes against humanity.

Ah, well, Ahmed Joyia, very few people in the world know that being a Pathaan, a Bajwa, Ranjha or a Joyia is a mere "state of mind" and nothing to do with some national or tribal identity.

I knew our friend Community will jusmp straight into this trap!!

My bro Whisper,

Don't get mad at me, I really enjoyed your joke which filled up myself with sweet memories of my good old friends. Again to be very humble and yet pleasent, "state of mind" of certain people is quite typical which distinguishes them from others. Isn't it?

I am glad you at least responded to my post though with all your predictable arrogance. I knew you won�t get that Pathaan bit. When we �know it all� we just always stumble.

Pathaan is not some national or tribal identity. Like Ranjha, Bajwa, Rana or a Joyia it�s just a State of Mind. And, the day a Pathaan indulges in any self pity he stops being a Pathaan and turns into some Hamid Karzai.

Want some references? Go to the British Library and read what message we carved on poor Colonel Bryden�s back to carry it back to his Rawalpindi garrison. Or, ask some Soviet Marshal. Why go that far, you seem to have good links with the Pentagon ask any of your four star generals how the Pathaans are treating them in the MandoKhel area just right this very minute?

�     I hope i am working towards His forgiveness with the means and reason He gave me

Thank you. I promise, I didn�t know that the path to His forgiveness now ran through working as a recruiter for the American army.

you probebly do not understand Arabic

You are absolutely right. How could any of us ever come to hold any knowledge of Arabic or the Koran? since you hold the sole Master Franchise of the Koran . . . we never know since when!

a true believer, a true human being is to be an enemy of no one, but that he is faced by enemies.

So do I take it that the Koran says that when we are occupied by some ghastly enemy we should just lie down on our tummies and let them do what some Pathaans do to people like you?

Sorry, wrong number. I hold no anger at all for you. I just pity your mentality and tactics.

And, the way you hide behind a page from our book.

Though, I know your reply, bro Whisper is not directed to me (I assume, I hope and I wish, not to me), that I never was so much impolite with you.

Whisper wrote: ................  we should just lie down on our tummies and let them do what some Pathaans do to people like you? ...........

   I, don't know what to say?

Yaar, no way at all.

It's for our Man with that mask of a Page from the Quran who wants us all to join the American Army and strengthen their occupation. The only man on this site who cites pages and pages of Ayaat and justifies Iraq invasion. I am answering his post to me with his quotes.

My dear Bro Whisper,

Though I can't do to myself what I ask you to do in such a situation, but fact remains, anger is an enemy of ones own self as it takes away one's ability to think rationally and then respond wisely. Though there are many reincarnated personalities on this forum, but this is what the fact of life is on this forum. Even if you try and succeed to uncover few of them, they would log into this forum with another reincarnted  name. Hence the circle would keep on going, however, important thing is to stay cool, observe more and talk less (though I am negating myself here). 

From the way you talk Ahmad, there was someone like me here before me? i find that interesting, i did not know there are others like me out there...i hope you judged well when you compare me with the one who was before me. And just for clearing this, i did not visit the forum before with any other name.

Brother Joyia I have no problem with any such "implants". And, it's always a matter of some effort for me to be angry about anything specially in this place, Spain.

It's just that I won't just tolerate someone using a page from the Koran to promote any least of all filthy Neo-Con agenda.

Sorry mate! Wrong number. Hang Low Sexnon has never been spun. I hold the copyrights on this word. It's my sole coinage.

It's far better to use some spin words than to get entirely sucked into spin agenda of war and occupation. The rest of your post deserves a "No a la Bullsh*t" T-shirt.

I know, we all have to serve some master.

And that Master says you should warmonger and promote American interests?

Really?