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Russia’s War on Islam

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Description: Current Events
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9785
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Topic: Russia’s War on Islam
Posted By: Zanjabil
Subject: Russia’s War on Islam
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 10:39am

News on Islam in Russia and the Caucasus

http://adamite.blogspot.com - http://adamite.blogspot.com




Replies:
Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 01 August 2007 at 11:05am

Moved to

http://adamite.wordpress.com - http://adamite.wordpress.com



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 4:04pm

Young Muslims disappear in Dagestan:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/young-muslims-disappear-in-dagestan/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/young-muslims-disapp ear-in-dagestan/

Russia liquidates Guantanamo detainee:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/russian-guantanamo-detainee-liquidated/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/russian-guantanamo-d etainee-liquidated/

Death squads terrorize Chechnya:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/death-squads-terrorise-chechens/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/death-squads-terrori se-chechens/



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 1:36pm

The  Rise of repressive regimes like the one in Russia has been facilitated by irresponsible acts of violence committed by individuals elsewhere in the name of islam.

United states had  always advocated Chechen rights before 9/11.Even after it, United states has occassionally taken Russia to task while trying to retain it as an ally in its fight against global terror.

The situation in Chechnya is a sad commentary of the changed global situation after 9/11 and the enormous damage caused to  freedom movements within places like chechnya due to the hijacking of the Islam by radical,,violent and right wing elements within it.



Posted By: Slot
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

The  Rise of repressive regimes like the one in Russia has been facilitated by irresponsible acts of violence committed by individuals elsewhere in the name of islam.

United states had  always advocated Chechen rights before 9/11.Even after it, United states has occassionally taken Russia to task while trying to retain it as an ally in its fight against global terror.

The situation in Chechnya is a sad commentary of the changed global situation after 9/11 and the enormous damage caused to  freedom movements within places like chechnya due to the hijacking of the Islam by radical,,violent and right wing elements within it.

 

Are you saying the Mujahideen in Chechnya are wrong? I don't think I agree with you.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 2:01pm

Please do not misquote me.

I never said anything about those  Mujahideen  in Chechnya who are genuinely fighting for their legitimate rights.


The point i was trying to make was that the senseless acts of violence  like (9/11 ,london bombings )committed in the name of Islam by the radical elements within it  have immensely harmed genuine freedom movements like the one in Chechnya against the Russian repression.

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 7:01am

What makes you think that 9/11 and 7/7 were committed in the name of Islam?

Read this:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/who-are-the-terrorists/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/who-are-the-terroris ts/

and this:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/09/insurance-companies-question-911/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/09/insurance-companies- question-911/

Think for yourself. It's your duty as a Muslim.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 10:18am

The articles produced are nothing new.There are dozens of conspiracy theories being circulated in the media.

Its a fact that 9/11 or the london subway incidents,the violent struggles in algeria and afghanistan,somalia,chechnya,bosnia,kashmir,southern thailand,middle east including iraq and palestine,lebanon all involve substantial muslim populations.

What worries me is the fact that Islam which is a very practical and pragmatic and peaceful  religion is being maligned as a religion advocating violence  due to senseless acts of violence by a fractional fringe group of muslims.

Resorting to senseless acts of violence is only going to bring misery and grief without resolving genuine problems in places like chechnya.

Muslims need to isolate trouble makers and violent extremists within their communities and delve deeper and work  pragmatically with all parties concerned to arrive at workable solutions .

Nothing is easy but violence is definitely not the solution either.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 12 August 2007 at 1:53pm

"What makes you think that 9/11 and 7/7 were committed in the name of Islam?"

You didn't answer the question.

Hard facts of physics are hardly the same as conspiracy theories. It's a fact that most of the population of Germany believed their government when told that the Communists had set fire to the German Parliament. And when told that the Poles had invaded German territory.

At the end of the day, it's on your conscience whether you trust the FBI thsi time round...



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 13 August 2007 at 10:03pm

Its high time brother to cast away all these conspiracy theories and wake up to the fact that 9/11,7/7 and the more recent glasgow bombings were by misguided muslims who have caused incalculable damage to the Noble image of Islam.

Its high time for all muslims to Start self reflecting,take the moral high ground ,isolate the trouble makers within islam and start peaceful constructive efforts to uplift the poor and downtrodden within the community.



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 August 2007 at 1:11pm

Syed,

Have you ever looked at the Pentagon after 9-11... there is NO plane debris. None, no residue etc. Where did it go? Where did the wings hit?  Have you EVER wondered?

Have you ever thought that someone is getting rich on this culture of fear? It�s called defense contractors, fat cats and military companies.

How is it that DOCTORS could be "discovered" and some average people trained in the war-torn country of Afghanistan can hijack 4 planes, crash two into the world trade center and one into the Pentagon.

Does ANYTHING seem funky about this? Just curious.. it is hypothetical the question by the way..

I think that you know, yes we should fix our inner Jihad. But you know what.. we cannot. We cannot fix things say in Pakistan because Pakistan is dragged into this evil games that people play.

I read a book by a guy, I forget his name, but he was convicted on espionage. He was working for US and sold out things to the Russians. And he described it all as a game. It�s a challenge to outwit and outsmart. Never mind people are dying for this idiocy.

That would be like saying the slaves in the US should just improve themselves but not try to be free from the yoke of their master!

The ones who should be doing something are the ones sitting around watching MTV with their beer.  

 



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 14 August 2007 at 2:37pm

But Syed is the type of guy who, during Stalin's times in Russia, would be leaping to denounce his fellow countrymen left, right and centre. Because he buys into the conspiracy theories fed him by his Government. Who never tells him lies. Ever.

Stalin managed to convince most of the population of Russia that their country was absolutely buzzing with spies and terrorists. Totally innocent people went to the camps on charges of conspiracy to commit terrorist acts -- precisely because of all the Russian Syeds who swallowed whatever they were told by kindly Uncle Stalin.

And Syed, what makes you think I'm a brother???

Some of us turn to the teachings of the Quran in times of trouble. The Quran nowhere tells us to denounce our brothers and sisters to Kafir tyrants. The Quran nowhere advocates the use of torture and imprisonment without trial. In Islam we are not cowboys: we do not punish without clear proof of guilty

Maybe if we lived in times when the authorities -- Kafir or otherwise -- were worthy of respect, didn't lie every time they opened their mouths, and hadn't stained their hands with the blood of one million Iraqis, then the picure would be quite different.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 14 August 2007 at 7:19pm

Mr Zanjabil, Let me remind you about the Iran-Iraq war fought for 8 long years between 1980-1988.

Both countries are muslim.!!!!!!!!!

The war produced no advantage for either side during most of the 8 years.

However, it resulted in heavy losses on both sides with 600,000 Iranian and 400,000 Iraqis dead, and an estimated total economic loss of 1,2 billion US$. It also brought http://i-cias.com/e.o/sad_huss.htm - Saddam Hussein 's ambitious plans for developing Iraq to a halt.


During the war, Iraq enlarged its military forces from 250,000 to 1,250,000, and accomodated the infrastructure of the country to the needs of the military. To a large degree, this established the precondition for the next war: the invasion of Kuwait and the military response from the international forces.

Instead of looking at our own faults why do we become hysterical  and  always blame the West for all our woes.????

Let me tell you  why, because  we are too lazy to wake up and do some inner introspection and also  because its the most convenient and easy thing to do.   

 Unless muslims in general and Islamic  nations in particular change their outlook and start trying to take responsibilities for their actions they are destined to be their own enemies.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 14 August 2007 at 8:23pm

Also Hayfa,

Assuming just for a minute i  regress to the level of a borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70 and  believe all the conspiracy theories about 9/11 etc

What about the the general state of the muslim world????

Aren't muslims responsible for the blood being shed in various forms of secretarian violence including Shia-Sunni,(all over the world)Mohajir-Non mohajir(pakistan) ,Arab-Non arab(sudan,parts of middle east)?????

As mentioned above in my last post the over a million precious lives that were lost in the Fratricidal Iran-Iraq War????

The Conflict in muslim  countries like Somalia and Algeria.

The ongoing Power tussle between Hamas and Fatah In Palestine.

The Criminal  and lavish life styles of the Royals in the Middle east and the complicity of the subjects supporting them.

When will we as Muslims accept personal responsibility for our actions and try to start at least  thinking  about our own deeds instead of raising the bogey of Western conspiracies   which has become our favourite past time.

 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 4:20am
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

Also Hayfa,

Assuming just for a minute i  regress to the level of a borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70 and  believe all the conspiracy theories about 9/11 etc

What about the the general state of the muslim world????

Aren't muslims responsible for the blood being shed in various forms of secretarian violence including Shia-Sunni,(all over the world)Mohajir-Non mohajir(pakistan) ,Arab-Non arab(sudan,parts of middle east)?????

As mentioned above in my last post the over a million precious lives that were lost in the Fratricidal Iran-Iraq War????

The Conflict in muslim  countries like Somalia and Algeria.

The ongoing Power tussle between Hamas and Fatah In Palestine.

The Criminal  and lavish life styles of the Royals in the Middle east and the complicity of the subjects supporting them.

When will we as Muslims accept personal responsibility for our actions and try to start at least  thinking  about our own deeds instead of raising the bogey of Western conspiracies   which has become our favourite past time.

 

Personal responsibility is important, but it should start from oneself. Instead of blaming Muslims in general in this public forum, may I ask you what you have contributed to this community? What about your Islamic scholarship? Have you achieved enough knowledge on Islam to comment freely on Islamic issues? 

It is important to see that this is current events section, and there is a section warning! Please read the guidelines as well, and comply with guidelines.

Peace

 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 7:19am
Hayfa,

please read the following article:

Debunking The 9/11 Myths - Mar. 2005 Cover Story

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html - Click here to read


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 7:38am

To Peacemaker and esteemed moderators of this forum,

I have no intention of transgressing any guidelines pertaining to this forum.

The point i was trying to make as a fellow muslim  time and again was that the only way to move forward towards success is to  rectify and change our own behaviours before pointing fingers at the external elements.

We have wasted entire generations in this game of blaming others and shirking responsibility and we owe it to our future generations to do some window cleaning before the rot sets in.

Peace



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 12:22pm
syed123, you have raised some interesting points, you don't need to be scholar to see it.

I do agree that mulsims are stuck in the glory of khalifath & will always blame America for all their problems. [ its only true to some extent, the rest is created by ourself]


Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 12:35pm

The problem with all of syed123's posts (on this and other threads) is the clear fact that his rhetoric and information come directly from the most basic forms of propaganda fabricated by the enemies of Islam and yet he presents them as facts.

Syed123, if we were going to accept your arguements, we would've been watching American TV or Satelite right now rather than visiting Islamic forums.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 3:24pm

Syed123, if you were paying attention rather than shouting inanities at the top of your voice, you would have noticed that I have already told you I am not a brother. I am a sister. A female member of the species.

Now, pay attention please, Syed123. I would value your considered opinion.

Mr Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review.

Do you genuinely think that your IQ is higher than his? Would you call him a "borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70"?

Let me quote from the article of this clearly intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury :

"Americans never check any facts.  Who do you know, for example, who has even read the Report of the 9/11 Commission, much less checked the alleged facts reported in that document.  I can answer for you.  You don�t know anyone who has read the report or checked the facts.

"How do you know that 9/11 was a Muslim terrorist plot?  How do you know that three World Trade Center buildings collapsed because two were hit by airliners?  You only �know� because the government gave you the explanation of what you saw on TV. (Did you even know that three WTC buildings collapsed?)

"Scientific evidence is a tough thing for the American public to handle, and the government knows it.  The government can rely on people dismissing things that they cannot understand as "conspiracy theory."  But if you are inclined to try to make up your own mind, you can find Dr. Jones' and Dr. Woods� papers, which have been formally presented to their peers at scientific meetings, on line at   http://www.st911.org/ - http://www.st911.org/

"For six years the Bush regime has been able to count on the ignorant and naive American public to believe whatever tale that is told them.  American gullibility has yet to fail the Bush regime.

"The government has an endless number of conspiracy theories, but only people who question the government�s conspiracies are derided for �having a conspiracy theory.�

"But Bush is prepared.  He has taught his untutored public that �they hate us for our freedom and democracy.�

"Gentle reader, wise up. The entire world is laughing at you."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14531.htm - http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14531.htm

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2006/08/18/5323.shtml - http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2006/08/18/5323.shtm l

So, Mr Syed, kindly read Mr Paul Craig Roberts' articles, through the above links. Kindly switch on your brain. Kindly form an intelligent response, free from empty cliches about aliens, retards and conspiracy theories.

Allah gave us brains in order for us to use them. So do your own thinking, and stop churning out cliched propaganda from the X-Files or whatever junk you watch.



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

To Peacemaker and esteemed moderators of this forum,

I have no intention of transgressing any guidelines pertaining to this forum.

The point i was trying to make as a fellow muslim  time and again was that the only way to move forward towards success is to  rectify and change our own behaviours before pointing fingers at the external elements.

We have wasted entire generations in this game of blaming others and shirking responsibility and we owe it to our future generations to do some window cleaning before the rot sets in.

Peace

Assalamu Alaikum,

With reference to the concept of personal responsibility, change should start from oneself as I explained to you in my last post in this thread. Yes, I should improve myself too, and if I don�t do something myself, I have no right to tell others what to do or what not to do.

Problems you describe are political in nature; political problems require political solutions. There is no point to blame Muslims, Christians or Jews in general for the political chaos. Why should a common Muslim be held responsible for illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan? The common Muslims I know are peace loving Muslims ( whether or not they are practicing Islam strictly ), but why should they be held accountable for the actions of those who commit heinous crimes in the name of peaceful religion, Islam? And why should those innocent people be held accountable for the actions of those involved in the cruel politics of warmongering.

That means the problem is more complex than you think. I have already explained to you in the following thread that please don�t use the term "Islamic terrorist." I clarified there why it was not appropriate:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9712&PN=2&TPN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9712& ;PN=2&TPN=1

Likewise, uttering other terms such as "Islamic extremist," "Muslim extremist," etc has no basis in Islam. The war and political debauchery, and resulting turmoil, should not be attributed in any way to Islam and common Muslims or to any other community in general; that is called Islam and Muslim bashing we see so often in the media.

Yes, some so called Muslims commit those heinous crimes, and the main stream media would be quick to use terms such as Muslim extremist or Muslim terrorist or Islamic terrorist and so on ( these terms are meaningless from Islamic point of view ); that amounts to Islam bashing or Muslim bashing. And when we follow that track, we also start doing the same thing, knowingly or unknowingly, namely, Islam/Muslim bashing.

Let us put it in a simple manner:

Neither oppress anyone, nor be oppressed; neither do injustice nor willingly accept injustice committed against you.

Yes, Islam is against killing innocent people. It is a religion that preaches universal justice and peace. Historically speaking, it can be verified that peace will be elusive in the absence of justice. That is why Islam stresses on justice with peace.

Changes require time, patience, and proper methodology. If we want to fix the shortcomings of our fellow brothers/sisters, we should follow the proper way; exculpate them when they are innocent and place the accountability where it belongs; educate, feed, and guide them in the right direction; and pray to Allah to make our affairs in line with His pleasure for ultimate success here and hereafter.

Here is a quotation that I would like to share:

"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life."

Mahatma Gandhi, Young India, 1924
Indian political and spiritual leader; also called father of nation, India

May Allah guide us all.

Peace

 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 8:08pm

A very accurate post by Peacemaker  except for certain points with regards to the political situation and personal accountability of the ordinary muslim with which i respectfully disagree.

But overall one of the most balanced  posts i have seen so far.

The quotation  with regards to the life of our beloved prophet(pbuh) moved me deeply and is definitely fodder for thought for all of us.



Posted By: Muslim mind
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 10:41am

Staged terror attacks have long been conducted by governments.

No one still knows fulley who or what happend on 9/11 and 7/11.

Its no good to jump and say the glasgow bomings was done by muslims. I mean everyone was screaming about 9/11 and all the maddness that came out. It was Saddam, it was this lot and so on.

 

The point I am trying to make is study this Al-qadeer groups and you will be surprised how many have been trained by Fbi and Cia.

 

Look at the amout of research that has come out on 9/11. I am not sure if this is 100% right, but 50% of New Yorkers believe 9/11 was a inside job.

 

Also, Re the Glasgow bombings; is it not strange that as soon as a new Prime Minister comes into power; all these terror scares start to happen? Gordon Brown was not popular and this was the best way to get the heat off his back and gain support.

 

Look at the History of British involvment in Iraq during the 20th Century; and they were staging attacks dressing up lie arabs! Same old crap is being played today.

 

I am not saying there are not bad elements; but it very badly being lied about.

 

Be honest, do you believe anything that comes out of westen press? I dont believe much of any crap they write. Just my opnion.

Peace.

 

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 1:06pm

In Russia, the police caught the terrorists who planted explosives in an apartment block red-handed. And it turned out they were FSB (KGB) employees. The FSB were forced to come out with some story about how they had been running a training exercise, and had planted sugar, not genuine explosives, in the apartment block. But the laboratory analyses had confirmed that the explosives were genuine -- the same kind that had been used in the Moscow apartment bombs which served to justify the second invasion of Chechnya.

Despite this, the vast majority of Russians nowadays call the Chechens terrorists. And turn a blind eye to the genocide and war atrocities their government's troops carry out there on a daily basis. When in reality the terrorists were FSB officers all along.

Sadly, the public in America and the UK are as easily fooled as the Russian public.



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Zanjabil Zanjabil wrote:

In Russia, the police caught the terrorists who planted explosives in an apartment block red-handed. And it turned out they were FSB (KGB) employees. The FSB were forced to come out with some story about how they had been running a training exercise, and had planted sugar, not genuine explosives, in the apartment block. But the laboratory analyses had confirmed that the explosives were genuine -- the same kind that had been used in the Moscow apartment bombs which served to justify the second invasion of Chechnya.


Despite this, the vast majority of Russians nowadays call the Chechens terrorists. And turn a blind eye to the genocide and war atrocities their government's troops carry out there on a daily basis. When in reality the terrorists were FSB officers all along.


Sadly, the public in America and the UK are as easily fooled as the Russian public.



can you post a link form reputable newspaper?


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 16 August 2007 at 10:33pm

The posts by Zanjabil and Muslim mind are not only baseless but also highly  misleading.

Please provide a credible source or proof  in order to substantiate your off the mark statements.

Without any tangible proof or evidence these statements and posts are worthless and can only  be described as figments of your imagination.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:21am

ak_m_f: Is the Wall Street Journal credible and reputable enough? You can read their article on the subject:

Another Putin Show Trial

By Elena Bonner

25 November 2004

The Wall Street Journal Europe

Next Wednesday, in a small town courthouse west of Moscow, Mikhail Trepashkin, a lawyer, will face a fabricated charge of illegal gun possession in the latest political trial under Vladimir Putin's presidency. The real crime of Mr. Trepashkin is a discovery that casts light on the murky circumstances of Mr. Putin's coming to power - the bombings of apartment houses in Moscow in September 1999 that led to the Second Chechen War and helped Mr. Putin win the 2000 elections.

Mr. Trepashkin was the attorney of a victim's family. His clients, two Russian-American sisters, Tatyana and Alyona Morozov, lost their mother in the bombings that shocked Russia. Like most Russians they believed the official version that the attack was the work of Chechen separatists, and backed Mr. Putin, then prime minister, who sent Russian troops to Chechnya.

However, in March 2000, on the eve of presidential elections, the independent NTV channel of Vladimir Gusinsky aired an investigative report about undercover agents of the Russian security service FSB being caught by the local police in the city of Ryazan while planting a bomb in another apartment house - just two weeks after the Moscow bombings. Mr. Putin's campaign warned Mr. Gusinsky not to air the story, or else. A year later NTV was taken over by the government and its owner chased into exile. But the allegations of FSB's complicity in the Moscow bombings have lingered ever since.

Tatyana Morozova traveled to Moscow in the summer of 2003 and hired Mr. Trepashkin to investigate the allegations and represent her at the trial of two Chechens accused of transporting the explosives for the bombings. The Chechens were convicted of terrorism early this year in a closed trial. But no one knows what happened in the courtroom because Mr. Trepashkin never got there.

He was arrested five days before the trial on a highway near Moscow when traffic police pulled him over and planted a gun in his car. While in jail, he was beaten and tortured by hunger, sleep deprivation and withholding of medicine for his chronic asthma, prompting the European court of human rights in Strasbourg to accept his case ahead of the years-long waiting line.

The evidence that he obtained and managed to communicate to a Moscow newspaper before his arrest might help explain his brutal treatment. The landlord in the bombed building told Mr. Trepashkin that the FSB had forced him to recognize a Chechen suspect - someone he had never seen - as the man who rented the basement to plant the bomb. From the landlord's description Mr. Trepashkin identified the real terrorist - a known FSB agent. In any democratic country such findings would bring Mr. Trepashkin on national TV and lead to public uproar, parliamentary probes and independent investigations. In Russia, this brought him arrest, torture and a sham trial.

Thirty years ago at a height of political repression in the Soviet Union, my late husband Andrei Sakharov and I would spend days in front of a courthouse trying to bring the world's attention to the fate of those courageous few who dared to challenge the regime - people like Yuri Orlov, Alexander Ginzburg, Anatoly Scharansky and others less known but no less heroic. Were Andrei Sakharov alive today, he would certainly go to the courthouse on Dec. 1. By all standards, Mr. Trepashkin and his fellow political prisoners Igor Sutyagin, Valentin Danilov and the Yukos three - Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev and Alexei Pichugin - are in the same situation as the dissidents from the Soviet days. Just as Mr. Putin carries on with the traditions of his KGB predecessors, these men stand up bravely to repression.

There is no continuity, however, in the Western response to repression in Russia. In the former days, personal support from Jimmy Carter, Margaret Thatcher, Francois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan gave us all strength to stand up to evil and brought a moral dimension into global politics. Today, Mr. Trepashkin is left on his own. I am far from expecting the West to give credence to Mr. Trepashkin's version of the 1999 events. But it would be completely in the tradition of the great leaders of the past if Mr. Putin were told that his handling of the 1999 bombing controversy is embarrassing for his new friends in the West who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

- Ms. Bonner, chairwoman of the Andrei Sakharov Foundation, is the widow of Dr. Sakharov.

From: http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm - http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm

The fact is there's a mountain of credible evidence. Mr Litvinenko wrote a whole book on the subject, presenting his evidence that his former employers -- the FSB -- were responsible for the apartment bombings. This is well known, and I'm surprised that so many readers here have not yet heard of these allegations.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:35pm

Chechnya  and its people have  definitely sufferred under the repressive regime of Putin who is continuing  the age old oppressive traditions of the erstwhile KGB.

 

But the Billion dollar question arises about the role of senseless violence and the enormous damage it causes to the credibility of genuine freedom movements  and its followers.

Violence practised by a particular community or group alienates  its otherwise sympathetic supporters.

The proponents of violence among muslims who are a miniscule minority are heavy on rhetoric about fighting but have always been found wanting when it comes to offering pragmatic workable solutions.

Cases in point being afghanistan where the Mujahiddeen guerillas could never have prevailed without heavy funding and covert support from the USA.

Bosnia where all the islamic and arab countries were heavy on rhetoric and passing resolutions but in all reality it was the US which intervened physically and stopped the heavy massacre of muslims there.

Kosovo where inspite of russian and serb opposition United states intervened militarily and aided the muslim majority population there.

Pre 9/11 United states  and Europe did offer muted support to the chechen struggle.

Irrespective of the political intrigues and  government conspiracies the value and appeal  of a particular community or group is judged by its ability to co-exist peacefully with other groups and also  by its contributions in the field of Science,Technology,economics,culture and art.         

   With great regrets i can say that Muslims are lagging behind in all the above fields and we need urgently to find out the causes and reasons in order to restore credibilty to genuine struggles against tyrannical regimes.

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 6:42am
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

Pre 9/11 United states  and Europe did offer muted support to the chechen struggle.

Syed123, this is not the case. Perhaps you should take off your rose-tinted glasses.

Clinton supported Yeltsin in his massacre of the Chechens with green dollars. Blair supported Putin's lies about the Chechens being terrorists and the Chechen War as a legitimate "War on Terror". The West has turned its back on the Chechens.

Yeltsin and Putin's troops have slaughtered between 15 and 25 percent of the Chechen population. There are concentration camps holding children in Chechnya. Rape is widespread. Yet some Muslims rant on about the importance of scientific achievements...

If we were a genuine Ummah -- a family of brothers and sisters in faith -- we would care about what's happening.

See http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/putin-the-barbarian-and-western-complicity/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/putin-the-barbarian- and-western-complicity/  for evidence of ongoing Western complicity:

�President Bill Clinton� helped finance Russia�s war in Chechnya.� Clinton had �lent Yeltsin $11 billion to finance the operation�, and �even went to Moscow, lauded Yeltsin, likened Russia�s savage repression of tiny Chechnya to America�s civil war, and had the effrontery to call Yeltsin �Russia�s Abraham Lincoln�.� The extent of American support for Russia�s campaign to subjugate the Chechen people was even clearer when in 1996, �Clinton reportedly ordered the CIA to supply Moscow top-secret electronic targeting devices that allowed the Russians to assassinate Chechen president, Dzhokar Dudayev, while he was conducting peace negotiations with Moscow on his cell phone.� 



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 8:08am

Lets talk about solutions Zanjabil.

Setting aside all prejudices In your opinion realistically how do you think  that the Chechen issue can be solved?

I also invite other contributors to state their expert opinions regarding a realistic way out of the quagmire in Chechnya.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 8:56am

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword. If we read and write about the reality in Chechnya, if we expose the lies spread by the Russian and Western governments, then that is a start.

This is truly a war for our hearts and minds.

Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (RAA) says that Allah's Messenger (SAW) said:

There was never a prophet sent before me by Allah (SWT) to his nation who had not among his people (his) disciples and companions, who followed his ways and obeyed his commands. Then there came after them their successors who said what they did not practise and did what they were not commanded to do. He who struggles against them with his hand (i.e., physically), he is the believer; and he who struggles against them with his tongue, he is the believer; and he who struggles against them with his heart, he is also the believer: but beyond that there is not even a grain of Iman.



Posted By: ops154
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Zanjabil Zanjabil wrote:

ak_m_f: Is the Wall Street Journal credible and reputable enough? You can read their article on the subject:

Another Putin Show Trial

By Elena Bonner

25 November 2004

The Wall Street Journal Europe

Next Wednesday, in a small town courthouse west of Moscow, Mikhail Trepashkin, a lawyer, will face a fabricated charge of illegal gun possession in the latest political trial under Vladimir Putin's presidency. The real crime of Mr. Trepashkin is a discovery that casts light on the murky circumstances of Mr. Putin's coming to power - the bombings of apartment houses in Moscow in September 1999 that led to the Second Chechen War and helped Mr. Putin win the 2000 elections.

Mr. Trepashkin was the attorney of a victim's family. His clients, two Russian-American sisters, Tatyana and Alyona Morozov, lost their mother in the bombings that shocked Russia. Like most Russians they believed the official version that the attack was the work of Chechen separatists, and backed Mr. Putin, then prime minister, who sent Russian troops to Chechnya.

However, in March 2000, on the eve of presidential elections, the independent NTV channel of Vladimir Gusinsky aired an investigative report about undercover agents of the Russian security service FSB being caught by the local police in the city of Ryazan while planting a bomb in another apartment house - just two weeks after the Moscow bombings. Mr. Putin's campaign warned Mr. Gusinsky not to air the story, or else. A year later NTV was taken over by the government and its owner chased into exile. But the allegations of FSB's complicity in the Moscow bombings have lingered ever since.

Tatyana Morozova traveled to Moscow in the summer of 2003 and hired Mr. Trepashkin to investigate the allegations and represent her at the trial of two Chechens accused of transporting the explosives for the bombings. The Chechens were convicted of terrorism early this year in a closed trial. But no one knows what happened in the courtroom because Mr. Trepashkin never got there.

He was arrested five days before the trial on a highway near Moscow when traffic police pulled him over and planted a gun in his car. While in jail, he was beaten and tortured by hunger, sleep deprivation and withholding of medicine for his chronic asthma, prompting the European court of human rights in Strasbourg to accept his case ahead of the years-long waiting line.

The evidence that he obtained and managed to communicate to a Moscow newspaper before his arrest might help explain his brutal treatment. The landlord in the bombed building told Mr. Trepashkin that the FSB had forced him to recognize a Chechen suspect - someone he had never seen - as the man who rented the basement to plant the bomb. From the landlord's description Mr. Trepashkin identified the real terrorist - a known FSB agent. In any democratic country such findings would bring Mr. Trepashkin on national TV and lead to public uproar, parliamentary probes and independent investigations. In Russia, this brought him arrest, torture and a sham trial.

Thirty years ago at a height of political repression in the Soviet Union, my late husband Andrei Sakharov and I would spend days in front of a courthouse trying to bring the world's attention to the fate of those courageous few who dared to challenge the regime - people like Yuri Orlov, Alexander Ginzburg, Anatoly Scharansky and others less known but no less heroic. Were Andrei Sakharov alive today, he would certainly go to the courthouse on Dec. 1. By all standards, Mr. Trepashkin and his fellow political prisoners Igor Sutyagin, Valentin Danilov and the Yukos three - Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev and Alexei Pichugin - are in the same situation as the dissidents from the Soviet days. Just as Mr. Putin carries on with the traditions of his KGB predecessors, these men stand up bravely to repression.

There is no continuity, however, in the Western response to repression in Russia. In the former days, personal support from Jimmy Carter, Margaret Thatcher, Francois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan gave us all strength to stand up to evil and brought a moral dimension into global politics. Today, Mr. Trepashkin is left on his own. I am far from expecting the West to give credence to Mr. Trepashkin's version of the 1999 events. But it would be completely in the tradition of the great leaders of the past if Mr. Putin were told that his handling of the 1999 bombing controversy is embarrassing for his new friends in the West who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

- Ms. Bonner, chairwoman of the Andrei Sakharov Foundation, is the widow of Dr. Sakharov.

From: http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm - http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm

The fact is there's a mountain of credible evidence. Mr Litvinenko wrote a whole book on the subject, presenting his evidence that his former employers -- the FSB -- were responsible for the apartment bombings. This is well known, and I'm surprised that so many readers here have not yet heard of these allegations.

 

Oh well it is nice to see that people say they don't believe anything from American press and then go back to quote it.

 

So does everyone on this board really feel they will get better information from a state sponsored news company then a privately owned that has freedom of the press? Now don't get me wrong I know there is a lot of BS in American press but come on now, are you really all that naive to believe that the Middle Eastern press is giving you all the facts when they have to have government officials approve broadcast before they can go out?

 

With all these atrocities happening all over the world against muslims there is only one thing that is a common factor for all them--They all include Muslims so maybe you need to look at yourselves for once instead of blaming the west for all of your problems.



-------------
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 18 August 2007 at 10:18pm
WALL STREET JOURNAL also published a story of people getting kidnapped by the UFO's.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 19 August 2007 at 6:22am

Read the press archive of this site:

http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/ - http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/

It includes: The New York Times, the BBC, The Moscow Times, The Observer, The Independent, The Baltimore Sun, CNN, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times...

I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I'm asking you to think for yourself and investigate. If you read and inform yourself, you are likely to draw the conclusion that the FSB carried out all the Russian apartment bombings. Simply because that is what all the evidence indicates.

Excerpts from �Blowing Up Russia: Terror from Within� by Yuri Felshtinsky and Alexander Litvinenko:

http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/080.htm - The Ryazan Story  ( http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/080.htm - http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/080.htm ) 

On May 21, 2000, just five days before the presidential election, when the failed explosion in Ryazan had been put back on the public agenda for political reasons by the parties competing for power, the head of the investigative section of the UFSB for the Ryazan Region, lieutenant-colonel Yuri Maximov, stated as follows:

�We took all the events of that night seriously, regarding the situation as genuinely dangerous. The announcement about exercises held by the FSB of the Russian Federation came as a complete surprise to us and appeared at a moment when the department of the FSB had identified the places of residence in Ryazan of those involved in planting the dummy (as it subsequently emerged) device and was preparing to detain them.�

It was thus twice confirmed in documentary form that the terrorists who had mined the building in Ryazan were employees of the FSB, that at the time of the operation they were living in Ryazan, and that the places where they lived had been identified by employees of the UFSB for the Ryazan Region. This being so, we can catch Patrushev out in an obvious lie. On September 25, in an interview with one of the television companies he stated that �those people who should in principle have been found straight away were among the residents who left the building, in which an explosive device was supposedly planted. They took part in the process of producing their own sketches, and held conversations with employees of the agencies of law enforcement.�

The real facts were quite different. The terrorists scattered to different safe apartments. No sooner had the leadership of the Ryazan UFSB reported in the line of duty by phone to Patrushev in Moscow that the arrest of the terrorists was imminent than Patrushev gave the order not to arrest the terrorists and announced that the foiled terrorist attack in Ryazan was only an �exercise.� One can imagine the expression on the face of the Ryazan UFSB officer concerned: most likely Major-General Sergeiev was reporting to Patrushev in person when he was ordered to let the terrorists go!

Beyond this point our investigation runs up against the old familiar �top secret� classification. The criminal proceedings instigated by the UFSB for the Ryazan Region in connection with the discovery of an explosive substance under article 205 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (terrorism) was classified and the case materials are not available to the public. The names of the terrorists (FSB operatives) have been concealed. We don�t even know if they were interrogated and what they said under interrogation.

On September 29, 1999, the newspapers Cheliabinsky Rabochy and Krasnoyarsky Rabochy, and on October 1, the Volzhskaya Kommuna of Samara carried identical articles; �We have learned from well-informed sources in the MVD of Russia that none of the MVD operatives and their colleagues in the UFSB of Ryazan believes in any �training� involving the planting of explosive in the town� In the opinion of highly placed employees of the MVD of Russia, the apartment building in Ryazan actually was mined by persons unknown using genuine explosive and the same detonators as in Moscow� This theory is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the criminal proceedings under the article on terrorism have still not been closed. Furthermore, the results of the original analysis of the contents of the sacks, carried out at the first stage by local MVD experts, were confiscated by FSB personnel who arrived from Moscow and immediately declared secret. Militiamen, who have been in contact with their colleagues in criminalistics, who carried out the first investigation of the sacks, continue to claim that they really did contain hexogene and there is no possibility of any error.�



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 25 August 2007 at 6:23am

An article on Russian converts to Islam:

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/the-spread-of-islam-to-russia/ - http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/the-spread-of-islam- to-russia/



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 25 August 2007 at 6:36pm

Zanjabil,I visited your Blog and i would like to offer a friendly suggestion.

Your blog is well presented but with regards to the United states you are judging it rather unfairly.

After having interacted with people around the world and in usa,,i can assure you that the common american (with a few exceptions here and there) is a genuine   and honest down to earth person who works hard to support his family ,likes his freedom,enjoys life and cares for the sufferings of the people around him.

Blind criticism of usa and Israel is only going to snatch the focus of your blog away from Chechnya where russia is committing a lot of atrocities.

Muslims should focus their efforts on building bridges with usa and especially israel and create an atmosphere of trust and confidence in which all the parties can grow and flourish.

Irrespective of the past hx the present reality is that Israel is a sovereign independent country with the right to exist like any other in the world.

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 4:58am

Zanjabil, I visited your Blog and i would like to offer a friendly suggestion. Your blog is well presented but with regards to the United states you are judging it rather unfairly.

Morshed, the day you discover your Peasant-in-Chief�s love for you, you will appoint me at least the Secretary General of your Utter Innocence Fan Club. Only the most innocentratis of our world would ever make such an infatuated remark about Zanjabil�s judgement.

After having interacted with people around the world

Please, won�t you also teach us this trick, of �How to Interact with all the People, in our world, and yet list Palestine as a mere Refugee Problem?

and in usa, i can assure you that the common american (with a few exceptions here and there) is a genuine and honest down to earth person who works hard to support his family, likes his freedom, enjoys life and cares for the sufferings of the people around him.

Zanjabil, please, did you do that? make some remarks about the common american?

Or, is this just one of my Morshed�s typical diversions?

Blind criticism of usa and Israel is only going to snatch the focus of your blog away from Chechnya where russia is committing a lot of atrocities.

What is blind criticism?

Other than some State Department spin your great Highness has been spamming here? by the tonne, since your sudden and annoyed appearance, around the time of Musharoff�s fall.

 

Or, is it just something you shout at your peasants when they refuse to sing n dance in tune with your spammed sermons?

 

Today, I will give you a friendly suggestion.

Just get your act together. We are not some utter bunch of peasants you seem to take us for. We have some exceptionally informed people, here, with multitudes of exposures and at least with their own thinking.

 

Post something original and thought provoking and we will play with you.

Muslims should focus their efforts on building bridges with usa and especially israel and create an atmosphere of trust and confidence in which all the parties can grow and flourish.

Another exact straight, simple State Department SPAM.

Irrespective of the past hx the present reality is that Israel is a sovereign independent country with the right to exist like any other in the world.

Again, you are taking us as mere peasants.

We know Israel is a sovereign state, but any state in our world, anywhere, CREATES AND ENSURES HER SURVIVAL through certain straight simple laws of NATURE. It�s not our fault that Israel is violating the very laws of her own survival

 

Talk with some learned Jews around the world, even in Israel. Just blindly taking all State Department spins won�t get you anywhere other than feeling good about having done your bit for your country � even better than some Fool Blooded Amreeki would have done.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 5:05am

With all these atrocities happening all over the world against muslims there is only one thing that is a common factor for all them--They all include Muslims so maybe you need to look at yourselves for once instead of blaming the west for all of your problems.

Hola! My genius. Noticed the other common factor? The U S!

Just one question; what do you get when you subtract syed123 from ops154?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 7:41am

Muslims should focus their efforts on building bridges with usa and especially israel and create an atmosphere of trust and confidence in which all the parties can grow and flourish.

We have had just a bit enough of your apamming of State Department and hardcore Israeli lobby spins. Any Confidence Building Measures can take shape only and after cease fires? It's a fact of history, almost, a Law of nature.

And, the problem is that laws of nature refuse to bend even for the mightiest force on this planet, why would these bend just in the face of some spammed sermons?

Since when have you been having this urge to treat all human beings as mere peasants or utter idiots? of course, unless they are Americans or Israelis.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 8:04am

Its my personal belief and view that unless   the Palestinians put up a united front and  change their long standing attitude of confrontation towards Israel the dynamics of the current situation are likely to remain the same indefinitely with the palestinians being the worst effected.

Israel also will need to make concessions from their side but just blaming israel without any concrete initiatives from their side is not going to help the palestinians in any way.

Its also prudent to recognise the reality that Israel is in a stronger position on the negotiating table and groups like hamas need to renounce violence and recognise the right of Israel to exist as an independent sovereign state.

The Longstanding palestinian issue has  not only increased poverty and suffering among the palestinians but also has diverted  world attention from other pressing muslim issues and problems around the world like the conflict in Chechnya etc.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 8:15am

We have had just a bit enough of your apamming of State Department and hardcore Israeli lobby spins

My dear readers including Whisper, iam just an ordinary, concerned muslim who is proud of his faith and at the same time very much distressed at the sufferings that my Ummah is going through .

I also believe a major portion of the blame lies at the feet of our leaders,influential members of the community and the clergy who  have mislead us, the ordinary muslims in order to safeguard their own selfish interests.

Inspite of the constant criticism and name calling like in the post above I will continue to educate my fellow members and at the same time keep an open mind and learn from you .

Thank you

 



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 8:21am

To Zanjabil,

My  humble suggestion to you regarding your well constructed blog  in my previous post was given sincerely and with the best intentions.

Criticism of USA and Israel without making concessions or offering alternate solutions is not going to end the stalemate either in palestine or elsewhere.        &n bsp;     Its also going to take the focus away from other crisis areas like Chechnya.

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

Zanjabil,I visited your Blog and i would like to offer a friendly suggestion.

Your blog is well presented but with regards to the United states you are judging it rather unfairly.

syed123, it is Allah who will do the judging. That is beyond my remit.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 5:22pm

syed123, it is Allah who will do the judging. That is beyond my remit.

I wish, one day, I could grow to be a woman or, at least, come to hold just a shadow of such wisdom.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 5:29pm

Its my personal belief and view that unless the Palestinians put up a united front and change their long standing attitude of confrontation towards Israel.

Congratulations!

You have just struck the jackpot. If this is your personal thesis then you must demand heavy royalties, from the U S of A, they have been spreading this line, left, right and centre, without your permission, since July 1982 � after they were forced to flee from Lebanon � as one of their excuses to maintain Status Quo in that area

the dynamics of the current situation are likely to remain the same indefinitely with the palestinians being the worst effected.

Dynamics of this universe and, specially, of global politics are not something dead or as still as you wish to portray. These are vital processes and change faster than your dreams. Even otherwise nothing ever remains to the same indefinitely.

Israel also will need to make concessions from their side but just blaming israel without any concrete initiatives from their side is not going to help the palestinians in any way.

I will accept this point in good humour and from someone who is proving, with each breath that he knows nothing about this conflict (or, in your words, Refugee Problem!) other than the US media spins.

Its also prudent to recognise the reality that Israel is in a stronger position on the negotiating table and groups like hamas need to renounce violence and recognise the right of Israel to exist as an independent sovereign state.

Again, I salute your generous ability to take in all US media spin as some gospel truth. Anyone who understands Political Process and knows anything about this conflict, knows the INDICATORS Hamas has been putting up for not just recognising Israel, BUT ALSO HAVING A PEACE DEAL WITH IT.

 

VIOLENCE WILL CEASE ONLY AND ONCE OCCUPATION ENDS. My friend, Palestinians are just a bit different from our sub-continental brothers who happen to hold a 2000 years old great tradition of and the World Record for appeasing occupiers.

The Longstanding palestinian issue has not only increased poverty and suffering among the palestinians but also has diverted world attention from other pressing muslim issues and problems around the world like the conflict in Chechnya etc.

We are quite used to multi-tasking and will focus on all conflicts. Why must we toss aside all conflicts and just keep our concern only with conflicts of your (or the State Department�s) choice?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 5:41pm

I also believe a major portion of the blame lies at the feet of our leaders, influential members of the community and the clergy who have mislead us, the ordinary muslims in order to safeguard their own selfish interests.

That is exactly what the State Department (and now also Pentagon's own PR Cell) is spinning for their own public.

I will be most obliged if you provided us a list of the conflicts that our leaders, influential members of the community and the clergy have mislead us to kickstart?

The fault lies equally, if not more, with oue nuevo Imperialists and to dilute their responsibility is not merely an act of appeasement, but also a delibrate and a dangerous distortion of facts.

This doesn't wash well with us as some khidamaat e Ummah.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 5:47pm

Inspite of the constant criticism and name calling like in the post above I will continue to educate my fellow members and at the same time keep an open mind and learn from you .

The US State Department an all the Zionist Think Tanks have been trying to educate us on the exact same lines and with the exact same zeal. We don't pay much heed to their words.

What deal are you offering us that we should listen to their message, packaged in their words, but delivered to us through your key-board?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 9:07pm

Every muslim in the world doesnt need to have the same views .We can all agree to disagree without fighting amongst ourselves.

And just because ordinary muslims like myself  happen to have a more balanced view  and a constructive approach we dont become US State dept stooges or zionist tools.

This is not only an insult to myself but also to the millions of muslims around the world who would like to approach the burning issues of the Ummah with constructive calculated pragmatism instead of emotional self destructive violence aimed at the innocents.



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 26 August 2007 at 9:38pm

I will be most obliged if you provided us a list of the conflicts that our leaders, influential members of the community and the clergy have mislead us to kickstart?

 

Muslims themselves have been equally harsh to each other because of a leadership that has failed in compassion and vision.

Here is a preliminary list that you have asked for:

1)In Algeria over 50,000 have been killed during the 1990s in the most brutal manner possible;

2)The dispossessed Kurds have been savagely persecuted by several Muslim states including Turkey, iran and iraq.

3)Sunni Muslims have fought Shi'ites, and Iran and Iraq waged a bloody ten-year war that may have killed a million people.

4)Pakistan which is almost a failed islamic state has Shias and Sunnis   ,Mohajirs and Non-mohajirs,Punjabis and Non Punjabis,Sindhis belonging to the jeo sindh movement and non sindhis, the pashtuns in NWFP are all at loggerheads with each other and secretarian violence and resultant deaths are all too common..

5)In the kingdom of Bahrain the ruling Sunni Al-Khalifa royal family rules over a majority Shia population which is deeply discontended and restive.

6)By the way the Darfur conflict in Sudan  which has killed thousands is between  the  province's nomadic Arab tribes, supported by the government in Khartoum, and the native African settled peasant tribes.

The deep causes of the rebellion lie in the feeling of superiority and cultural elitism of the �Arab tribesmen�, and of resentment and perceived oppression and neglect on the part of the �Africans�.

The Ultimate irony is that Both the parties involved are Sunni Muslims!!!!!!.

In all the above examples the ruling political elite and the religious clergy have contributed to the violence and sufffering of the ordinary man on the street.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 August 2007 at 7:24am

Every muslim in the world doesnt need to have the same views. We can all agree to disagree without fighting amongst ourselves.

Almost all the established members, of this Forum, would bear witness to the fact that I have never posted anything with any Islamic tinge, or have even claimed to be a Muslim. I was cultured in an atmosphere (and also with some grave responsibility) of flowing beyond any considerations of faith, colour, caste, creed or sex.

 

You can ask our Angel I have no problem ever with any disagreements.

And just because ordinary muslims like myself happen to have a more balanced view and a constructive approach we dont become US State dept stooges or zionist tools.

If you promise not to mind, may I ask who calibrated your views and approach? I am not sure if Self Certification is accepted, as evidence, in the US, as defence against, say, a murder charge?

 

Here, in the United Kingdom, a judge normally bangs his wooden hammer on his desk and orders the accused to shut up as soon as the charged falls into singing some songs of his own praise.

 

My friend, study you posts and, please, educate us on why all your balanced views, all your constructive approaches and even all your phrases are exactly the same as has long been peddled by the US and their Zionist masters?

This is not only an insult to myself but also to the millions of muslims around the world who would like to approach the burning issues of the Ummah with constructive calculated pragmatism instead of emotional self destructive violence aimed at the innocents.

Please just be a bit specific about the issues instead of using such a broad brush the burning issues of the Ummah.

 

Just tell us how do you come to pick up only those burning issues, which have long been marked by the Zionists for Muslim solution?

 

Muslims themselves have been equally harsh to each other because of a leadership that has failed in compassion and vision.

Here is a preliminary list that you have asked for:

1) In Algeria over 50,000 have been killed during the 1990s in the most brutal manner possible;

My dearest friend, shall I thank thee, in silence or just with tears of immense joy? For proving my belief in your utter innocence and far beyond my own wildest dreams!

 

Anyone in our world who knows anything about Algeria, knows what happened there and how the situation was manufactured. You live in a democratic country, you claim to be burning with the love of all poor Muslims and you refuse to know how an entire people (well, only 92.4% of them) were dispossessed of their right to govern themselves?

 

Would anyone, please, tell the Algerian story to my Morshed, here?

2)The dispossessed Kurds have been savagely persecuted by several Muslim states including Turkey, iran and iraq.

Have you ever lived in Turkey?

Have you ever had Kurdish neighbours for straight 2 years in one go and then for a few months at a time for a good long time?

 

Is it ever possible that the Kurds might have contributed something to their own plight in these countries?

 

You shout a campaign against those forces of extremism, intolerance and all of that, but disruptions and outright terrorism becomes kosher just if it�s of US design?

3) Sunni Muslims have fought Shi'ites, and Iran and Iraq waged a bloody ten-year war that may have killed a million people.

We were talking of those Forces of extremism, intolerance and whatever? But, never mind, I will ask you just one simple question:

What do you expect the poor Iranians to do when a Puppet, put on the Baghdad throne, by your masters, attacks Iran? at his Master�s behest?

4) Pakistan which is almost a failed islamic state

Sir, may I ask?

With such a unique and brilliant mind, why not roll out at least a term or two of your own manufacture? Why ever solely rely on the US State Department supplies?

has Shias and Sunnis, Mohajirs and Non-mohajirs, Punjabis and Non Punjabis, Sindhis belonging to the jeo sindh movement and non sindhis, the pashtuns in NWFP are all at loggerheads with each other and secretarian violence and resultant deaths are all too common.

When were you last in Pakistan?

(I do remember, a batch of American Paki doctors did visit Islamabad, sometimes this year, to bolster up the sagging American image, with Karen Hughes� blessings. Were you with that group?)

 

I live in Pakistan, the UK and Spain are just my break hideouts.

I work full time, with real people out there, they grow sugar cane and breed cattle (and also some horses) for us.

 

Besides my madre�s Farsi and my paternal grandmother�s Pushtu, I speak Urdu like a UPite (was married to one of the most beautiful Bareili woman for over 32 years); Punjabi like some thait Lhori (lived in the Punjab since our exile); Sindhi (my largest estate is in Sindh and I am no lati fundista, I am actually on the spot almost as often as some Karachite would go to the Burns Road for a Nihari!) and through strong Baluchi family connections, I ended up learning Brohi.

 

I am no sa�b, I am a mere peasant, I love people and I just don�t interact with them, I get into them and I allow them to get into me.

 

I would also love to see this Rios del Sangre (Rivers of Blood) painting you have painted for us. Is it hanging at some gallery or just exists in some policy documents at the Presidency? For, I have never been able to locate any such rampant Rios del Sangre anywhere in that country�s majority - 72.4% rural - population.

 

Yes, like in any other society, there are occasional local, mainly, family and at times also factional feuds. Other than that this Rivers of Blood scenario is painted by just two great artists: one trying to hang on to the last threads of his stolen power and his partner now in self imposed exile, from those 93 torture, extortion and murder cases pending against him in Pakistan courts.

 

YES. Baluchistan and the NWFP are on fire or, we could say are now �In the Line of Fire�.

 

And, we all know who is responsible for that. Sorry, I meant to exclude yourself and our Washington friends.

5)In the kingdom of Bahrain the ruling Sunni Al-Khalifa royal family rules over a majority Shia population which is deeply discontended and restive.

That�s exceptionally sad. But they are no friends of mine, but your country�s best mates. I believe you had something called a CentCom there. What can we do?

 

I think, it would be a very good idea to knock at some doors a bit closer at home.

6) By the way the Darfur conflict in Sudan which has killed thousands is between the province's nomadic Arab tribes, supported by the government in Khartoum, and the native African settled peasant tribes.

The deep causes of the rebellion lie in the feeling of superiority and cultural elitism of the �Arab tribesmen�, and of resentment and perceived oppression and neglect on the part of the �Africans�.

The Ultimate irony is that Both the parties involved are Sunni Muslims!!!!!!.

In all the above examples the ruling political elite and the religious clergy have contributed to the violence and sufffering of the ordinary man on the street.

This is predominantly a typical class struggle or conflict. Where does the Mullah�s charisma come into all of this? Tell me how many poor mullahs do you wish to buy in any Cap It All istic set up. Just get the right amount of funds allocated and we go shopping.

 

But, if you need a Senator or two also in your basket then we would need a wee more funds. My friend, these are some of the Market Economy miracles.

-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 27 August 2007 at 8:42pm

First of all Whisper  I  was definitely fascinated by your culturally rich  background and history.

Now back to business,

I would like to ask you just one question ,

Do you think that Violence is the answer and solution to all the problems of muslims around the world????

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 7:08am
Originally posted by syed123 syed123 wrote:

Do you think that Violence is the answer and solution to all the problems of muslims around the world????

syed123, why not put that question to your own self?

Do you think that Violent invasions of sovereign states is the answer to all the problems of Muslim extremism around the world?

The chief Violence disgracing the planet at present is that of the US army. According to credible research, over a million Iraqis have been killed since the US illegal invasion. Is genocide not Violence?



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 10:02am

First of all Whisper I was definitely fascinated by your culturally rich background and history.

Thanks my friend, it�s just some dust gathered through the journey of life.

I would like to ask you just one question,

Do you think that Violence is the answer and solution to all the problems of muslims around the world????

Shah saheb, did I ever say that?

 

I am just concerned about your definition of violence?

 

What is the percentage of Muslims who are trying to solve anything with violence?

 

What do you do when violence is thrust on you?

Do you just run away, dig a huge deep enough hole, lie in it and pretend to be dead?

 

EVEN THE UNITED NATIONS CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VIOLENCE AND NATIONAL STRUGGLES AGAINST INVADERS.

 

Other than your posts, only the Zionist�s quarter paints the Muslims as some inherently violent bunch.

 

It will be futile for me to ask you your reasons for that.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 10:04am

Zanjabil
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

I am learning straight sharp brevity from you.

Thanks



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 1:54pm

To Zanjabil,

What do you have to say about the Unforgivable  suicide bombers  who are blowing up not hundreds but thousands of innocent Iraqis women and children?

Even today dozens of innocent pilgrims were killed in karbala caught in the crossfire between 2 opposing shiite militias.

Why do you have  this Hypocritical approach when it comes to atrocities perpetrated by criminals who happen to be a band of misguided muslims who have gone astray????

In a war is the US army supposed to stand still and not defend itself when its attacked???

If you lose your sense of justice there would be no difference between the accuser and the accused.

Why do you expect all the justice and kindness  from United states  without taking the faults and wrongs committed by persons from our own religion.???????

Its all very easy to take the populist stand and shield the faults and fallacies of our people but in the long run the  whole Ummah pays a heavy price like we are doing right now.

We have to confront and eliminate the self destructive policy of Mccarthyism  where anybody who confronts the faults and wrong policies within the Ummah is labelled as a Zionist or Western stooge.



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 3:20pm

syed123, am I a "hypocrite" in your eyes?

You speak of the need to cleanse Islam of wrongdoers. What Islam? Kindly show me your Islam. I do not see it.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 4:13pm

You speak of the need to cleanse Islam of wrongdoers. What Islam? Kindly show me your Islam. I do not see it.

Hamsheereh, now that's simply unfair.

Is it his fault if you haven't seen the latest Islamic Software Upgrade Version (CIA-Oct 2004)?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 5:43pm

Zanjabil,I  never called you a Hypocrite per se.

I did refer to your approach in this particular instance as hypocritical because while you are accusing united states of killing iraqis at the same time you are turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed on each other by the fellow Iraqis themselves.

As i have stated before inspite of all the Outrageous tags(Zionist,american stooge,Munafiqin,CIA etc etc ) i have been labelled by Ignorants on this forum, i will continue in my selfless quest  to point out facts  and continue in my effort to educate my Ummah  about the Real Facts.

 

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 6:12pm

To Zanjabil,

Morshed, today, you stand promoted as the Ameer el Momineen for such par excellence performance.

What do you have to say about the Unforgivable suicide bombers who are blowing up not hundreds but thousands of innocent Iraqis women and children?

We have forever been asked this question, always with the same very display of concerns and for some strange reason, with the same exact word count!

And, for some even stranger reason, always by people with numeric attachments to their nicks. We dearly remember our B59000, my friend ops154 amongst others on a too long a list.

Even today dozens of innocent pilgrims were killed in karbala caught in the crossfire between 2 opposing shiite militias.

Have you sent a Congratulatory telegram to the White House? Please, don�t forget to endorse a copy to the Pentagon.

Why do you have this Hypocritical approach when it comes to atrocities perpetrated by criminals who happen to be a band of misguided muslims who have gone astray???

Exact same statement, exact same word count. But all the others were FoolBlooded Americans, none of them was ever guised as some Syed, sorry, with the exception of our brother Community who was trying to recruit people for the US army, in very transparent desperation.

In a war is the US army supposed to stand still and not defend itself when its attacked???

How do we know?

Better address this question to the Pentagon. If Google don�t have their address, try http://www.ask.com/ - www.ask.com  

If you lose your sense of justice there would be no difference between the accuser and the accused.

The company we keep, colours us, just look at our sense of justice since your arrival.

Why do you expect all the justice and kindness from United states without taking the faults and wrongs committed by persons from our own religion.???????

When did you last see anyone expecting any justice and kindness from United states?

Its all very easy to take the populist stand and shield the faults and fallacies of our people but in the long run the whole Ummah pays a heavy price like we are doing right now.

Yes, I feel sad, about the heavy price the US taxpayer is paying. Ameer el Momineen, this silly Ummah is very crafty, they have worked out what price your highness wishes them to pay.

We have to confront and eliminate the self destructive policy of Mccarthyism where anybody who confronts the faults and wrong policies within the Ummah is labelled as a Zionist or Western stooge.

If you stood at the corner of the 5th and the 42nd and started singing some good old Elvis Presley songs, would you shout if anyone refused to accept these as your own songs?

My friend, who shall we applaud when you sing the exact same songs that our Zionist friends� gramophones have been playing for years?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 29 August 2007 at 5:43am

�The cause of liberty becomes a mockery if the price to be paid is the wholesale destruction of those who are to enjoy liberty.�

MK Ghandi

 



Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 29 August 2007 at 5:55am

Earlier on this thread, syed123 accused Hayfa and myself of being "borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70". 

I have never come across such a Muslim before.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 August 2007 at 6:47am

Earlier on this thread, syed123 accused Hayfa and myself of being "borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70". 

Hamsheer'em, did you thank him for such a compliment?

"Fikre herr kess b'qadre himat e oost" - Our ultimate thought is just to the limits of our real capacity!

Coming from him it's not just a compliment but also a confession of his own reality.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 29 August 2007 at 7:18pm

Zanjabil, allow me to reproduce one of your own quotes about me.Going by your own logic below you are painting me as an idiot.

.Not only that you have painted me  as a stalinist in one of your earlier posts.I know you have never seen a muslim like me before but i think people living in glass houses shouldnt throw stones at others

So, Mr Syed, kindly read Mr Paul Craig Roberts' articles, through the above links. Kindly switch on your brain.

Also Zanjabil you are totally misrepresenting me.I never specifically said that either Hayfa or you were borderline mentally retards.I merely quoted a hypothetical situation with no mention of you anywhere   in the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My quote is mentioned below.

 Assuming just for a minute i  regress to the level of a borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70 and  believe all the conspiracy theories about 9/11 etc

Well what can i say, It s for Allah to judge  and may allah guide us all on the path of understanding ,tolerance and truth with the ability to understand and analyse the REAL FACTS



Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 29 August 2007 at 7:30pm

About Whisper, who has stooped to the degrading practice of Character assassination(he has had the nerve to place me in the same bracket as a zionist,cia mole ,american stooge etc etc)  i can never stoop down to his level and instead can only wish him the best of luck in his endevours

This is his latest Quote about me which is totally uncalled for but i have seen colourful characters like him before  and i guess thats the the way they are.

Our ultimate thought is just to the limits of our real capacity!

Coming from him it's not just a compliment but also a confession of his own reality.

Also Mr Whisper, let me confess to you, unlike your flawed and populist approach which only has the potential to lead the Ummah astray, my mission is to provide the Ummah with the REAL FACTS not cheap populist theories and unrealistic fantasies.

Iam on a mission of goodwill and truth and  not here to win any popularity contests  and  people like you or  Zanjabil are welcome to have their opinions whether bad or good .

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 August 2007 at 5:00am

Also Zanjabil you are totally misrepresenting me. I never specifically said that either Hayfa or you were borderline mentally retards.

Zanjabil, you have to admit he has never specifically said anything ever in any of his posts.

. . . and believe all the conspiracy theories about 9/11 etc

Please do forgive him for that as well.

Must realise that some people can be simply blind to that huge mountain of Strong Contrary PROFESSIONAL Evidence and also to the SHEER fact that the US have forever refused to HOLD A WHODUNIT ENQUIRY.

 

with the ability to understand and analyse the REAL FACTS!

 

Zanjabil, you must agree, the REAL FACTS are:

 

1.                   Palestine is just some Refugee Problem?

2.       And, it was the Algerian clergy who kept 92% of Algerians from treating their brutal suppression as some One-Day India-Pakistan Cricket match?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 August 2007 at 5:02am

About Whisper, who has stooped to the degrading practice of Character assassination (he has had the nerve to place me in the same bracket as a zionist, cia mole, american stooge etc etc) 

Ameer el Momineen, degrading?

We have raised you to the ranks of your ultimate ideals? Please, educate us where we must list you for copying n pasting all their scripts?

Coming from him it's not just a compliment but also a confession of his own reality.

Master, I have ever confessed my reality of being your most obedient peasant?

my mission is to provide the Ummah with the REAL FACTS

. . . and only what Langley scripts qualify as REAL FACTS?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 August 2007 at 5:34am

Zanjabil,I  never called you a Hypocrite per se.

. . . while you are accusing united states of killing iraqis at the same time you are turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed on each other by the fellow Iraqis themselves.

We follow the example you set.

while you are accusing ALL THE MUSLIMS FOR ALL THE VIOLENCE IN OUR WORLD at the same time you are turning AN ABSOLUTE blind eye to ALL the atrocities committed BY THE REAL SOURCE OF ALL THIS BLOODBATHS, THE US. (The CAPS are mine)

How many Eyerakis were killing Eyerakis before 20th March 2003?

I wish you understood or just even knew anything about wars, or, for that matter, even about some sheer plain facts of life?

i will continue in my selfless quest  to point out facts  and continue in my effort to educate my Ummah  about the Real Facts.

What are the REAL FACTS?

Palestine is some mere Refugee Problem?

And, it was the Algerian clergy who kept the 92% of Algerians from treating their brutal suppression just as some One-Day India-Pakistan Cricket match?

 

And, you well know, you will not answer this post.

At best you might post that would never specifically say anything.

 

Have you ever considered taking up Abstract Painting?

 

 



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Zanjabil
Date Posted: 30 August 2007 at 7:10am

syed123 also has this curious habit of writing Allah's (swt) name in small letters, while he capitalises "Violence" all the time... Now what are we to make of that?

syed123: the inference was that Hayfa and I were borderline mentally (sic) retards for questioning the FBI version of events.



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 30 August 2007 at 8:24am

Assuming just for a minute i  regress to the level of a borderline mentally retard with an I.Q of 70 and  believe all the conspiracy theories about 9/11 etc

Well could you not also say you have a borderline IQ for believing hook line and sinker the things the government tells you? I have worked with developmentally disabled people and they believe what people tell them. They do not recognize deception.  Now you on the other hand, don�t seem to question much of what you are told by US government / media etc.

Based upon history and education the fact that many people Moslems and nonMoslems question the official line of 9-11 does not make them st**id.  Butt you don�t say anything because well you could be accused of being unpatriotic, etc. Actually I think people are more savvy then they are often given credit for.

For instance you can have the theory that someone took hold of a plane and crashed it into the Pentagon. Now there is no debris. But you can believe that �theory.� Or you can believe a missile hit it. Now that makes sense cause there is no debris from a plane there. Both are �theories� are they not? Which do you believe Syed?  

Also Mr Whisper, let me confess to you, unlike your flawed and populist approach which only has the potential to lead the Ummah astray, my mission is to provide the Ummah with the REAL FACTS not cheap populist theories and unrealistic fantasies.

I feel so good that you are helping us all out. Giving us the facts. Do tell, when were you last in Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan or Somalia? Do tell where your FACTS come from? Have you been a reporter there? What information are you going to share that will help us on to make an �informed� opinion? Do tell.  Considering the US has limited media access in both Iraq and Afghanistan I wonder how we can get the FACTS.

I really, really needed the humor. I did. I've had a terrible two weeks here. And this just made me laugh. sorry. Unrealistic fantasies.. now what would those be? The "fantasy" to be able to practice Islam without interference? The "fantasy" to decide their own fate? The "fantasy" to not be exploited?  

I feel good you are going to help us from leading us �astray�.

 



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 31 August 2007 at 1:33pm

All i can say in response to all the complementary posts by Zanjabil,Whisper(my favourite admirer) and Hayfa is that the last thing i want to do is to get into a personal slanging match.

The Ummah has always held precedence over an insignificant person like me and i would like to keep it that way.

I will continue to encourage opposing opinions while analysing and educating my dear readers with the REAL FACTS devoid of populism,emotional outbursts or just plain untruths.

Holy Quran,Surah 32 "He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning"



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 September 2007 at 12:24am

Ameer el Momineen, so the the REAL FACTS and the TRUTH are:

1. Palestine is some mere Refugee Problem?

2. And, it was the Algerian clergy who kept the 92% of Algerians from treating their brutal suppression just as some One-Day India-Pakistan Cricket match?

 

The ulimate fact: you were some braincell, in Mush's mind, so only you know he came with some golden intensions.

 

Today, eithere produce some certificate that proves that you the Master Franchise of facts, as you claim or apologise to the Ummah for trying to hoodwink us with your borrowed facts!!



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: syed123
Date Posted: 01 September 2007 at 7:44am

I will get back  in day or two since iam busy with work and travel.

Peace.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 September 2007 at 12:55pm

I will get back  in day or two since iam busy with work and travel.

Sir, we wait, not for some sermon, but just for the Confirmation Certificate that you have been appointed the Sole facts Merchant for the planet.

And, we are prepared to deal with no more than your following facts:

1. Palestine is some mere Refugee Problem?

2. And, it was the Algerian clergy who kept the 92% of Algerians from treating their brutal suppression just as some One-Day India-Pakistan Cricket match?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 September 2007 at 4:47pm

I will get back  in day or two since iam busy with work and travel.

A e M, you mean with some FACTS like this one:

Vital Lockerbie evidence 'was tampered with'


Fragments of bomb timer that helped to convict a Libyan ex-agent were 'practically carbonised' before the trial, says bankrupt Swiss businessman

Alex Duval Smith, Europe correspondent
Sunday September 2, 2007
http://www.observer.co.uk/ - The Observer

The key piece of material evidence used by prosecutors to implicate Libya in the Lockerbie bombing has emerged as a probable fake.

Nearly two decades after Pan Am flight 103 exploded over Scotland on 21 December, 1988, allegations of international political intrigue and shoddy investigative work are being levelled at the British government, the FBI and the Scottish police as one of the crucial witnesses, Swiss engineer Ulrich Lumpert, has apparently confessed that he lied about the origins of a crucial 'timer' - evidence that helped tie the man convicted of the bombing to the crime.

 

The disaster killed 270 people when the London to New York Boeing 747 exploded in mid-air. Britain and the US blamed Libya, saying that its leader, Colonel Muammar Gadaffi, wanted revenge for the US bombing of Tripoli in 1986. At a trial in the Netherlands in 2001, former Libyan agent Abdulbaset al-Megrahi was jailed for life.

 

He is currently serving his sentence in Greenock prison, but later this month the Scottish Court of Appeal is expected to hear Megrahi's case, after the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission ruled in June that there was enough evidence to suggest a miscarriage of justice. Lumpert's confession, which was given to police in his home city of Zurich last week, will strengthen Megrahi's appeal.

 

The Zurich-based Swiss businessman Edwin Bollier, who has spent nearly two decades trying to clear his company's name, is as eager for the appeal as is Megrahi. Bollier's now bankrupt company, Mebo, manufactured the timer switch that prosecutors used to implicate Libya after they said that fragments of it had been found on a Scottish hillside.

 

Bollier, now 70, admits having done business with Libya. 'Two years before Lockerbie, we sold 20 MST-13 timers to the Libyan military. FBI agents and the Scottish investigators said one of those timers had been used to detonate the bomb. We were shown a fuzzy photograph and I confirmed the fragments looked as though they came from one of our timers.'

 

However, Bollier was uneasy with the photograph he had been shown and asked to see the fragments. He was finally given permission in 1998 and travelled to Dumfries to see the evidence.

 

'I was shown fragments of a brown circuit board which matched our prototype. But when the MST-13 went into production, the timers contained green boards. I knew that the timers sold to Libya had green boards. I told the investigators this.'

 

Back in Switzerland, Bollier's company was in effect bankrupt, having faced a lawsuit from Pan Am and having lost major clients, such as the German federal police to which Mebo supplied communications equipment.

 

In 2001, Bollier spent five days in the witness box at the Lockerbie trial at Camp Zeist in the Netherlands. 'I was a defence witness, but the trial was so skewed to prove Libyan involvement that the details of what I had to say was ignored. A photograph of the fragments was produced in court and I asked to see the pieces again. When they were brought to me, they were practically carbonised. They had been tampered with since I had seen them in Dumfries.'

 

Few people apart from conspiracy theorists and investigative journalists working on the case were prepared to believe Bollier until the end of last month, when Lumpert, one of his former employees, walked into a Zurich police station and asked to swear an affidavit before a notary.


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 11 September 2007 at 12:07am

I will get back  in day or two since iam busy with work and travel.

Posted 01 September. It's now the 11th. Perhaps, my fault, I must have read a day or two when you might have meant a week or two.

But waiting for my Morshed with all the patience I can find. Very hard to find a good Morshed these days. Isn't there anyone esle around who could at least tell us some jokes?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh



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